Comments on: The Clinton Campaign Shucks And Jives http://www.oliverwillis.com/index.php/2008/03/10/the-clinton-campaign-shucks-and-jives/ Like Kryptonite To Stupid Sun, 06 Jul 2008 23:15:34 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: Sean D. Martin http://www.oliverwillis.com/index.php/2008/03/10/the-clinton-campaign-shucks-and-jives/#comment-87481 Sean D. Martin Wed, 12 Mar 2008 19:18:15 +0000 http://www.oliverwillis.com/index.php/2008/03/10/the-clinton-campaign-shucks-and-jives/#comment-87481 Yeah, we're done. The first few times maybe I can write off to maybe I wasn't clear enough and didn't make my point well. But since you refuse to hear what I'm actually saying, say I said things I didn't and insist on tagging on your own spin, there really is no point. Yeah, we’re done. The first few times maybe I can write off to maybe I wasn’t clear enough and didn’t make my point well. But since you refuse to hear what I’m actually saying, say I said things I didn’t and insist on tagging on your own spin, there really is no point.

]]> By: Mingus http://www.oliverwillis.com/index.php/2008/03/10/the-clinton-campaign-shucks-and-jives/#comment-87477 Mingus Wed, 12 Mar 2008 18:52:06 +0000 http://www.oliverwillis.com/index.php/2008/03/10/the-clinton-campaign-shucks-and-jives/#comment-87477 Yes, we're going to have to agree to disagree Sean, because you still don't get it. Once more and then I'm done - using the disasters of Iraq and Katrina to score a cheap political point (Hillary didn't plan for Obama which is just like Bush's failures to plan for Iraq and Katrina. Just saying it demonstrates how absurd that notion is) in my opinion, does grave injustice to those who have suffered as a result of those catastrophies, trivializes the truly grotesque decision making of the administration (it's just like what Senator Clinton did in her campaign, so what's the big deal?), and unjustly demonizes, in my opinion, a political rival. It's not about discussing the failures of the Bush administration to properly plan or carry out the war or help New Orleans, those are well documented as is Senator Clinton's initial support of the war by the way. For me, it's making the jump to tar Senator Clinton with the spector of those disasters simply because she apparently could not forsee the truly incredible rise of Senator Obama. Iraq and Katrina whether you believe it or not, evoke powerful images of destruction and human misery and are examples of decision making failures on a massive scale on many levels not just planning. That doesn't mean one shouldn't talk about them or what went wrong or how to avoid it happening again. I do believe however, that it is very wrong to use them in this instance. Yes, we’re going to have to agree to disagree Sean, because you still don’t get it. Once more and then I’m done - using the disasters of Iraq and Katrina to score a cheap political point (Hillary didn’t plan for Obama which is just like Bush’s failures to plan for Iraq and Katrina. Just saying it demonstrates how absurd that notion is) in my opinion, does grave injustice to those who have suffered as a result of those catastrophies, trivializes the truly grotesque decision making of the administration (it’s just like what Senator Clinton did in her campaign, so what’s the big deal?), and unjustly demonizes, in my opinion, a political rival. It’s not about discussing the failures of the Bush administration to properly plan or carry out the war or help New Orleans, those are well documented as is Senator Clinton’s initial support of the war by the way. For me, it’s making the jump to tar Senator Clinton with the spector of those disasters simply because she apparently could not forsee the truly incredible rise of Senator Obama. Iraq and Katrina whether you believe it or not, evoke powerful images of destruction and human misery and are examples of decision making failures on a massive scale on many levels not just planning. That doesn’t mean one shouldn’t talk about them or what went wrong or how to avoid it happening again. I do believe however, that it is very wrong to use them in this instance.

]]> By: Sean D. Martin http://www.oliverwillis.com/index.php/2008/03/10/the-clinton-campaign-shucks-and-jives/#comment-87451 Sean D. Martin Wed, 12 Mar 2008 15:44:43 +0000 http://www.oliverwillis.com/index.php/2008/03/10/the-clinton-campaign-shucks-and-jives/#comment-87451 Mingus, we're going to have to agree to disagree here. Without in any way belittling the suffering of those affected by the Iraq war or Katrina I find it quite possible to discuss the failure to properly plan for one or deal with the other without conjuring up images of death and misery. Anyone unable to do so, IMHO, isn't going to help either situation much. When all someone can do is wring their hands, say "Oh, this is terrible" and focus on images of death and misery they aren't going to be able to do much to actually deal with the situation. That will be done by those who can say "Yeah, this is bad. Now, here's what we do to get help to those people and make this go better." Mingus, we’re going to have to agree to disagree here. Without in any way belittling the suffering of those affected by the Iraq war or Katrina I find it quite possible to discuss the failure to properly plan for one or deal with the other without conjuring up images of death and misery. Anyone unable to do so, IMHO, isn’t going to help either situation much. When all someone can do is wring their hands, say “Oh, this is terrible” and focus on images of death and misery they aren’t going to be able to do much to actually deal with the situation. That will be done by those who can say “Yeah, this is bad. Now, here’s what we do to get help to those people and make this go better.”

]]> By: mingus http://www.oliverwillis.com/index.php/2008/03/10/the-clinton-campaign-shucks-and-jives/#comment-87413 mingus Wed, 12 Mar 2008 01:16:50 +0000 http://www.oliverwillis.com/index.php/2008/03/10/the-clinton-campaign-shucks-and-jives/#comment-87413 Perhaps Sean, you should learn to read more carefully. I understand your point re PLANNING and I will concede that I was a bit over the top and allowed my outrage to get the better of me by describing you as inhumane. I apologize for that. However, it is exactly your analogy comparing PLANNING for a war that had very knowable and known obstacles to success and has resulted in untold human misery as well as comparing the lack of action and planning to help victims of a natural disaster to what amount to political campaign decisions (as well as a lack of perspective that is shown by making that comparison) that I find so distasteful. If it is a fact (and I don't know that it is) that Senator Clinton did not foresee the rise of Senator Obama or move quickly enough when he came from nowhere to take over the race (at least for the time being) or more importantly to your argument, that she should have had some sort of contingency plan in place for the unknowable (i.e., forseeing that Senator Obama would explode onto the scene pretty late in the game to grab hold of the political imagination of the country and take the nation by storm) is not only absurd, but isn't even close to analogous to the types of decisions and planning made for the Iraq war or for what occurred with Katrina. Most importantly, I think that using the specters of those two now infamous catastrophies (Iraq and Katrina) which when mentioned conjure images in most people of death and human misery, to advance a political argument is truly horrible and I believe is insulting to the victims of those catastrophies and to their loved ones. Perhaps Sean, you should learn to read more carefully. I understand your point re PLANNING and I will concede that I was a bit over the top and allowed my outrage to get the better of me by describing you as inhumane. I apologize for that. However, it is exactly your analogy comparing PLANNING for a war that had very knowable and known obstacles to success and has resulted in untold human misery as well as comparing the lack of action and planning to help victims of a natural disaster to what amount to political campaign decisions (as well as a lack of perspective that is shown by making that comparison) that I find so distasteful. If it is a fact (and I don’t know that it is) that Senator Clinton did not foresee the rise of Senator Obama or move quickly enough when he came from nowhere to take over the race (at least for the time being) or more importantly to your argument, that she should have had some sort of contingency plan in place for the unknowable (i.e., forseeing that Senator Obama would explode onto the scene pretty late in the game to grab hold of the political imagination of the country and take the nation by storm) is not only absurd, but isn’t even close to analogous to the types of decisions and planning made for the Iraq war or for what occurred with Katrina. Most importantly, I think that using the specters of those two now infamous catastrophies (Iraq and Katrina) which when mentioned conjure images in most people of death and human misery, to advance a political argument is truly horrible and I believe is insulting to the victims of those catastrophies and to their loved ones.

]]> By: Sean D. Martin http://www.oliverwillis.com/index.php/2008/03/10/the-clinton-campaign-shucks-and-jives/#comment-87376 Sean D. Martin Tue, 11 Mar 2008 22:28:40 +0000 http://www.oliverwillis.com/index.php/2008/03/10/the-clinton-campaign-shucks-and-jives/#comment-87376 Mingus: "<i>I personally think it’s disgraceful to callously compare the Iraq and Katrina disasters with the possible blunders of a political campaign.</i>" And where, exactly, did I compare the results of those disasters or the sufferings of the people involved with a political campaign? I'm not saying the difficulties Hillary is facing are comparable at all to the difficulties faced by the residents of NO. I'm talking about the ability <i>to plan</i> for a situation and to have contingencies ready. You're taking this off into the "least human or humane comment I have ever seen" realm is either purposefully or ignorantly missing the point being made. Mingus: “I personally think it’s disgraceful to callously compare the Iraq and Katrina disasters with the possible blunders of a political campaign.”

And where, exactly, did I compare the results of those disasters or the sufferings of the people involved with a political campaign? I’m not saying the difficulties Hillary is facing are comparable at all to the difficulties faced by the residents of NO.

I’m talking about the ability to plan for a situation and to have contingencies ready. You’re taking this off into the “least human or humane comment I have ever seen” realm is either purposefully or ignorantly missing the point being made.

]]> By: liberalrob http://www.oliverwillis.com/index.php/2008/03/10/the-clinton-campaign-shucks-and-jives/#comment-87327 liberalrob Tue, 11 Mar 2008 15:43:06 +0000 http://www.oliverwillis.com/index.php/2008/03/10/the-clinton-campaign-shucks-and-jives/#comment-87327 <blockquote>They failed to be competent and bought their own press that they would have the nomination wrapped up in a bow by Super Tuesday. Regardless of what you think of the worthiness of the contests, the Obama campaign had a game plan to get to the nomination.</blockquote> Accurate as far as it goes. It's definitely a credit to the Obama campaign and his supporters that he has gone all the way and is now the frontrunner. You will note that Hillary did fire her campaign manager. The comparison to Katrina and 9/11 is just mean. Katrina and 9/11 were due to purposeful, planned incompetence. Miscalculating whether the election would be decided on Super Tuesday (when everyone and I mean EVERYONE was saying it would be) does not rise to that level of stupidity.

They failed to be competent and bought their own press that they would have the nomination wrapped up in a bow by Super Tuesday. Regardless of what you think of the worthiness of the contests, the Obama campaign had a game plan to get to the nomination.

Accurate as far as it goes. It’s definitely a credit to the Obama campaign and his supporters that he has gone all the way and is now the frontrunner. You will note that Hillary did fire her campaign manager.

The comparison to Katrina and 9/11 is just mean. Katrina and 9/11 were due to purposeful, planned incompetence. Miscalculating whether the election would be decided on Super Tuesday (when everyone and I mean EVERYONE was saying it would be) does not rise to that level of stupidity.

]]> By: Mingus http://www.oliverwillis.com/index.php/2008/03/10/the-clinton-campaign-shucks-and-jives/#comment-87274 Mingus Tue, 11 Mar 2008 00:09:26 +0000 http://www.oliverwillis.com/index.php/2008/03/10/the-clinton-campaign-shucks-and-jives/#comment-87274 Not ad hominem at all. I personally think it's disgraceful to callously compare the Iraq and Katrina disasters with the possible blunders of a political campaign. The issue in my comment and your initial comment which led me to respond to you is perspective or lack thereof. Comparing the disasters that have left literally millions in misery to what you think have been bad political decisions made in the heat of a campaign, I believe, is insulting to those victims and their families and demonstrates lack of perspective. But I tell you what. Why don't you ask a Katrina victim or the parents of a soldier who has died in Iraq or an Iraqi family who has lost everything if failing to plan for a political phenomenon like Obama who seemingly came out of nowhere to the very real and known consequences of war or a major hurricane is the same thing. Then tell me I'm ad hominem. Not ad hominem at all. I personally think it’s disgraceful to callously compare the Iraq and Katrina disasters with the possible blunders of a political campaign. The issue in my comment and your initial comment which led me to respond to you is perspective or lack thereof. Comparing the disasters that have left literally millions in misery to what you think have been bad political decisions made in the heat of a campaign, I believe, is insulting to those victims and their families and demonstrates lack of perspective. But I tell you what. Why don’t you ask a Katrina victim or the parents of a soldier who has died in Iraq or an Iraqi family who has lost everything if failing to plan for a political phenomenon like Obama who seemingly came out of nowhere to the very real and known consequences of war or a major hurricane is the same thing. Then tell me I’m ad hominem.

]]> By: Sean D. Martin http://www.oliverwillis.com/index.php/2008/03/10/the-clinton-campaign-shucks-and-jives/#comment-87269 Sean D. Martin Mon, 10 Mar 2008 23:24:45 +0000 http://www.oliverwillis.com/index.php/2008/03/10/the-clinton-campaign-shucks-and-jives/#comment-87269 Oh, come on, Mingus. You're (purposely?) misreading what I said and decide to go ad hominem. ("the least human or humane comment I have ever seen"?? Oh, please.) I'm not comparing the death/destruction in Iraq or New Orleans to a political campaign. I'm saying the level of <i>planning</i> of how to deal with a situation is the same. Bush (et al) didn't plan appropriately for Iraq. He expected the whole thing to be easy and had no contingency in place for when it didn't. Even after it started to go badly he made no changes to his basic plan other than to add more of the same. Replace "Bush" with "Clinton" and "Iraq" with "campaign" in that paragraph and I think it still works perfectly well. Oh, come on, Mingus.

You’re (purposely?) misreading what I said and decide to go ad hominem. (”the least human or humane comment I have ever seen”?? Oh, please.)
I’m not comparing the death/destruction in Iraq or New Orleans to a political campaign. I’m saying the level of planning of how to deal with a situation is the same.

Bush (et al) didn’t plan appropriately for Iraq. He expected the whole thing to be easy and had no contingency in place for when it didn’t. Even after it started to go badly he made no changes to his basic plan other than to add more of the same.

Replace “Bush” with “Clinton” and “Iraq” with “campaign” in that paragraph and I think it still works perfectly well.

]]> By: Mingus http://www.oliverwillis.com/index.php/2008/03/10/the-clinton-campaign-shucks-and-jives/#comment-87266 Mingus Mon, 10 Mar 2008 22:16:38 +0000 http://www.oliverwillis.com/index.php/2008/03/10/the-clinton-campaign-shucks-and-jives/#comment-87266 Are you kidding? Comparing disasters that resulted in thousands of deaths, untold casualties and human misery, and literally billions of dollars in property damage is exactly the same as under estimating a political opponent? Wow. Just wow. Your comment Sean, has to take the cake for the least human or humane comment I have ever seen. Comparing serial decisions made over the course of years that resulted in lives lost and untold damage to political blunders that may only cost a candidate an election is absolutely amazing. Are you kidding? Comparing disasters that resulted in thousands of deaths, untold casualties and human misery, and literally billions of dollars in property damage is exactly the same as under estimating a political opponent? Wow. Just wow. Your comment Sean, has to take the cake for the least human or humane comment I have ever seen. Comparing serial decisions made over the course of years that resulted in lives lost and untold damage to political blunders that may only cost a candidate an election is absolutely amazing.

]]> By: Sean D. Martin http://www.oliverwillis.com/index.php/2008/03/10/the-clinton-campaign-shucks-and-jives/#comment-87260 Sean D. Martin Mon, 10 Mar 2008 21:24:14 +0000 http://www.oliverwillis.com/index.php/2008/03/10/the-clinton-campaign-shucks-and-jives/#comment-87260 QiaB: "<i>Right. Underestimating Mr. Obama’s strength is exactly like GWB’s greatest disasters.</i>" It isn't that they faailed to plan specifically for Obama's strength. They didn't plan for <b>any</b> opposition or anything going wrong with their original plan. The had no contingency plans at all. And when things started to diverge from the plan (She's inevitable. She'll have it wrapped up by Super Tuesday.) they failed to notice, adapt or change course. Exactly like Bush's planning in Iraq, etc. QiaB: “Right. Underestimating Mr. Obama’s strength is exactly like GWB’s greatest disasters.”

It isn’t that they faailed to plan specifically for Obama’s strength. They didn’t plan for any opposition or anything going wrong with their original plan. The had no contingency plans at all. And when things started to diverge from the plan (She’s inevitable. She’ll have it wrapped up by Super Tuesday.) they failed to notice, adapt or change course.

Exactly like Bush’s planning in Iraq, etc.

]]> By: Wellstone http://www.oliverwillis.com/index.php/2008/03/10/the-clinton-campaign-shucks-and-jives/#comment-87247 Wellstone Mon, 10 Mar 2008 19:02:22 +0000 http://www.oliverwillis.com/index.php/2008/03/10/the-clinton-campaign-shucks-and-jives/#comment-87247 Ollie, I understand you are dedicated to spinning for Obama, but I have to agree with Quaker: You've completely lost perspective. Ollie, I understand you are dedicated to spinning for Obama, but I have to agree with Quaker:

You’ve completely lost perspective.

]]> By: Quaker in a Basement http://www.oliverwillis.com/index.php/2008/03/10/the-clinton-campaign-shucks-and-jives/#comment-87242 Quaker in a Basement Mon, 10 Mar 2008 17:59:42 +0000 http://www.oliverwillis.com/index.php/2008/03/10/the-clinton-campaign-shucks-and-jives/#comment-87242 <em>In an echo of George W. Bush’s performance before 9/11, Iraq, and Katrina, the Clinton team simply failed to plan.</em> Right. Underestimating Mr. Obama's strength is <em>exactly</em> like GWB's greatest disasters. OW, you've completely lost perspective. In an echo of George W. Bush’s performance before 9/11, Iraq, and Katrina, the Clinton team simply failed to plan.

Right. Underestimating Mr. Obama’s strength is exactly like GWB’s greatest disasters.

OW, you’ve completely lost perspective.

]]> By: Duros62 http://www.oliverwillis.com/index.php/2008/03/10/the-clinton-campaign-shucks-and-jives/#comment-87219 Duros62 Mon, 10 Mar 2008 15:18:32 +0000 http://www.oliverwillis.com/index.php/2008/03/10/the-clinton-campaign-shucks-and-jives/#comment-87219 testing my gravatar testing my gravatar

]]> By: Duros62 http://www.oliverwillis.com/index.php/2008/03/10/the-clinton-campaign-shucks-and-jives/#comment-87218 Duros62 Mon, 10 Mar 2008 15:11:04 +0000 http://www.oliverwillis.com/index.php/2008/03/10/the-clinton-campaign-shucks-and-jives/#comment-87218 <a href="http://www.simplych.com/cb_rules.htm" rel="nofollow">Calvinball rules.</a> Calvinball rules.

]]> By: liberalrob http://www.oliverwillis.com/index.php/2008/03/10/the-clinton-campaign-shucks-and-jives/#comment-87217 liberalrob Mon, 10 Mar 2008 15:09:09 +0000 http://www.oliverwillis.com/index.php/2008/03/10/the-clinton-campaign-shucks-and-jives/#comment-87217 <blockquote>she’s technically within the rules</blockquote> Oliver, politics ain't beanbag, as the famous cliche' goes. The fact that she's "technically within the rules" means just that, she's within the rules. She's not cheating. She's playing to win. Does that bother you? <blockquote>yet this is a plainly ridiculous position to take.</blockquote> Staying "technically within the rules" is a plainly ridiculous position to take? <blockquote>She was okay with abiding by the national party’s rulings against Florida and Michigan, but then when it became clear she was losing, she now wants those tainted contests to be included in the official results.</blockquote> Of course she does, but come on. You know that's not going to happen, because everyone knows those votes didn't count. EVERYONE knows that she's not going to get those delegates; there will either be a re-vote, or the delegates will be split evenly between the two candidates (or proportionally based on the final total delegate counts, so the MI and FL delegates would not alter the balance). Even Howard Dean, who I assume you hate as much as you hate Hillary for even suggesting that a re-vote occur, is not talking about just handing those delegates to Hillary based on the outcome of the sham votes that happened. So what are you so worked up about? <blockquote>The principle the Clinton campaign is now working on is: If it helps Hillary it’s good and pure. If it hurts Hillary its Eeeeevil.</blockquote> As opposed to every winning campaign for office I'm aware of, where things that hurt the candidate are always described as helpful. "This Whitewater thing, I'm glad that's being looked into so carefully. Ditto with Vince Foster's suicide, it's important to spend a lot of time going over that." Good grief, Oliver. I think you need to get some new kryptonite, because the Stupid is starting to win here. The "Clinton Rules" are in full effect, from your own hand. I like your enthusiasm for Obama. Don't let it turn you into Karl Rove's evil twin.

she’s technically within the rules

Oliver, politics ain’t beanbag, as the famous cliche’ goes. The fact that she’s “technically within the rules” means just that, she’s within the rules. She’s not cheating. She’s playing to win. Does that bother you?

yet this is a plainly ridiculous position to take.

Staying “technically within the rules” is a plainly ridiculous position to take?

She was okay with abiding by the national party’s rulings against Florida and Michigan, but then when it became clear she was losing, she now wants those tainted contests to be included in the official results.

Of course she does, but come on. You know that’s not going to happen, because everyone knows those votes didn’t count. EVERYONE knows that she’s not going to get those delegates; there will either be a re-vote, or the delegates will be split evenly between the two candidates (or proportionally based on the final total delegate counts, so the MI and FL delegates would not alter the balance). Even Howard Dean, who I assume you hate as much as you hate Hillary for even suggesting that a re-vote occur, is not talking about just handing those delegates to Hillary based on the outcome of the sham votes that happened. So what are you so worked up about?

The principle the Clinton campaign is now working on is: If it helps Hillary it’s good and pure. If it hurts Hillary its Eeeeevil.

As opposed to every winning campaign for office I’m aware of, where things that hurt the candidate are always described as helpful. “This Whitewater thing, I’m glad that’s being looked into so carefully. Ditto with Vince Foster’s suicide, it’s important to spend a lot of time going over that.” Good grief, Oliver. I think you need to get some new kryptonite, because the Stupid is starting to win here. The “Clinton Rules” are in full effect, from your own hand.

I like your enthusiasm for Obama. Don’t let it turn you into Karl Rove’s evil twin.

]]> By: mingus http://www.oliverwillis.com/index.php/2008/03/10/the-clinton-campaign-shucks-and-jives/#comment-87216 mingus Mon, 10 Mar 2008 14:56:16 +0000 http://www.oliverwillis.com/index.php/2008/03/10/the-clinton-campaign-shucks-and-jives/#comment-87216 Those dastardly Clintons, everyone knows they have the power to change everything by merely wishing it so and Obama will be powerless to prevent them from doing their evil will. Well, at least the Clinton camp knows that by accurately reciting "the rules" Obama supporters will suffer a case of terminal vapors. I would imagine that the Obama camp, now properly warned about what the rules are (in the event they were unaware before) will do everything in their power to prevent such an (unlikely) occurance. If in fact, this is a Clinton strategy (which I doubt and which is highly unlikely to succeed even if true, as Obama continues to pick up primary wins and endorsements) then maybe it's time for Obama to demonstrate his ability to lead by keeping his delegates in line. You ought to give your candidate more credit and belief than you apparently have in him. Or at least, get rid of the tin foil hats. Those dastardly Clintons, everyone knows they have the power to change everything by merely wishing it so and Obama will be powerless to prevent them from doing their evil will. Well, at least the Clinton camp knows that by accurately reciting “the rules” Obama supporters will suffer a case of terminal vapors. I would imagine that the Obama camp, now properly warned about what the rules are (in the event they were unaware before) will do everything in their power to prevent such an (unlikely) occurance. If in fact, this is a Clinton strategy (which I doubt and which is highly unlikely to succeed even if true, as Obama continues to pick up primary wins and endorsements) then maybe it’s time for Obama to demonstrate his ability to lead by keeping his delegates in line. You ought to give your candidate more credit and belief than you apparently have in him. Or at least, get rid of the tin foil hats.

]]> By: August J. Pollak http://www.oliverwillis.com/index.php/2008/03/10/the-clinton-campaign-shucks-and-jives/#comment-87208 August J. Pollak Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:54:35 +0000 http://www.oliverwillis.com/index.php/2008/03/10/the-clinton-campaign-shucks-and-jives/#comment-87208 <i>Now their arguments have begun to echo the kid who gets caught in a game of tag yet declares that he was “on base” the whole time. Only it was a secret “base”, that only exists in the kid’s mind.</i> In other words, Calvinball. Now their arguments have begun to echo the kid who gets caught in a game of tag yet declares that he was “on base” the whole time. Only it was a secret “base”, that only exists in the kid’s mind.

In other words, Calvinball.

]]> By: Robster http://www.oliverwillis.com/index.php/2008/03/10/the-clinton-campaign-shucks-and-jives/#comment-87202 Robster Mon, 10 Mar 2008 08:05:57 +0000 http://www.oliverwillis.com/index.php/2008/03/10/the-clinton-campaign-shucks-and-jives/#comment-87202 I thought that was Taylor Marsh? I thought that was Taylor Marsh?

]]> By: z_adura http://www.oliverwillis.com/index.php/2008/03/10/the-clinton-campaign-shucks-and-jives/#comment-87189 z_adura Mon, 10 Mar 2008 05:36:56 +0000 http://www.oliverwillis.com/index.php/2008/03/10/the-clinton-campaign-shucks-and-jives/#comment-87189 If Hillary loses the popular vote and loses the pledged delegate vote yet is cast as the nominee, I will not under any conditions vote for her. This is bigger than 2008. This is a question about the kind of party the Democrats want to be. If it is a back room, anti-democratic clique, I want nothing whatsoever to do with it. If Hillary loses the popular vote and loses the pledged delegate vote yet is cast as the nominee, I will not under any conditions vote for her. This is bigger than 2008. This is a question about the kind of party the Democrats want to be. If it is a back room, anti-democratic clique, I want nothing whatsoever to do with it.

]]>