I found this post on the Black Five military blog via a link on The Corner and it kind of bothered me a bit. It’s an email from an Army chaplain who describes soldiers standing to attention during the anthem when played before a movie. The chaplain says he would expect that sort of thing to be greeted by laughter by 18-22 year olds if it happened stateside. Really?
The anthem isn’t played before movies, but I’ve been to a few sporting events in different parts of the country (Maryland, California, Florida) - NBA, MLB, and NFL - and the vast majority of the crowd is usually quite respectful and reverent when the anthem is played. Most men (including myself) take of their ballcaps and put their hands over their hearts.
I respect the hell out of the armed forces, but I think efforts to say that they’re more American than the rest of us because they serve are quite misguided.
Funny, I taught my four-year-old daughter to take her cap off before a ball game when the anthem plays. I didn’t notice anyone laughing or mocking the flag. It would be odd if the anthem was being played before a movie, but that hasn’t been done stateside since about 1947.
Can’t you look at anything without seeing liberal vs. conservative, democrat vs. republican?
It’s called discipline, Oliver. At my son’s high school graduation the other night, during the singing of the last few lines of the National Anthem, people began cheering and clapping like it was a hockey game.
At hockey games, not only do we wait until the last line of the anthem to cheer, but we also sing along with the Canadian anthem out of respect. That’s neither liberal or conservative. That’s the way things have always been.
For the record, the national anthem is only funny at sporting events when Carl Lewis can’t sing “and the rockets red glare” in the correct octave, or when Maurice Cheeks did an impromptu duet with that poor girl who forgot the words.
Can’t you look at anything without seeing liberal vs. conservative, democrat vs. republican?
Once again, you are reading words that exist in your own mind, Frank. I never said anything about ideology. Not a single word. The comparison drawn was civilian vs. military, and not by me.
Maybe the people at your son’s graduation are total asses, but I’ve not seen that kind of behavior in my supposed blue state enclaves.
Hmm, Lysander seems to have issues since there isn’t anything in Oliver’s post that portrayed this as a liberal vs. conservative or Democrat vs. Republican narrative! Cheering at the end of the National Anthem, particularly at outdoor sporting events, has been done for over 30 years with no controversy (that I can recall from when baseball games were reasonably affordable with a “business man special” season ticket of Thursday afternoon games).
Chaplain Jim Higgins may be on his second or third tour and is probably on an overextended deployment. Sounds like he (as many others) requires some stateside R&R with some MLB supplied tickets (at least MLB used to have a program for comps to active military) to observe how US citizens, regardless of military or civilian, respect the National Anthem.
OK, so it’s not political. Are you telling me that at pro games that are on TV, the crowd isn’t cheering and applauding by “land of the free”?
SHUT. UP. FRANK.
At least you guys have a decent anthem. We’ve got “God Save The Queen”. I don’t know why you guys even used the tune of that for “My Country ‘Tis of Thee”.
Oh, no! Not again…
Oliver,
I would agree with the Chaplain. There would be a difference. I notice that you take Lysander to task over the fact that you didn’t mention Democrat/Republican/Liberal/Conservative in your post. But, you also made a stellar jump in your assessment of what the Chaplain said. He didn’t say military people were more “American”. He noted that the Soldiers stood silently after the music unexpectedly stopped. He said if this had been civilians they would have started cracking up and snickering or joking around. I think that would have happened also. Military people are not more American, however they are more DISCIPLINED. Especially in the younger ages where people tend to be more wild. America is a great place, and people have a lot. Therefore, the first time people have a chance to see what hardship, neglect, and struggle is about is when they go into the military. I would daresay that 18-22 year olds in the military are more “patriotic” by definition than civilians simply because there is a certain level of indoctrination that goes on when you go to Initial Entry Training. I am not sure why it bothered you that he asked the question about a “difference”. Both parties seem to think that they both have a true understanding and concern for American service members, but those that have never served do not, in my opinion. In my opinion, “You had to be there….”
Oliver,
I would agree with the Chaplain. There would be a difference. I notice that you take Lysander to task over the fact that you didn’t mention Democrat/Republican/Liberal/Conservative in your post. But, you also made a stellar jump in your assessment of what the Chaplain said. He didn’t say military people were more “American”. He noted that the Soldiers stood silently after the music unexpectedly stopped. He said if this had been civilians they would have started cracking up and snickering or joking around. I think that would have happened also. Military people are not more American, however they are more DISCIPLINED. Especially in the younger ages where people tend to be more wild. America is a great place, and people have a lot. Therefore, the first time people have a chance to see what hardship, neglect, and struggle is about is when they go into the military. I would daresay that 18-22 year olds in the military are more “patriotic” by definition than civilians simply because there is a certain level of indoctrination that goes on when you go to Initial Entry Training. I am not sure why it bothered you that he asked the question about a “difference”. Both parties seem to think that they both have a true understanding and concern for American service members, but those that have never served do not, in my opinion. In my opinion, “You had to be there….”
Today Tyfoc learns the word “imply”.
“He said if this had been civilians they would have started cracking up and snickering or joking around. I think that would have happened also.”
um, he also felt compelled to add: “Of course, that is, if they had stood for the National Anthem in the first place.”
The assumption is that most civilian 18-22 year olds have little respect for the anthem to begin with. Talk about a strawman argument.
As an Army “brat” who spent 19 years living on Military Bases around the world… I can only tell you that it is a common, decent practice to stand before the flag/song just before a movie. Just as we would do whenever the flag came down at 5pm on base - it was a sign of RESPECT.
Problem is, with Neo-Con’s running the show… and Corporatists ruining the Country… there becomes less and less to “respect” about our grand old flag when the policies behind this corrupt cabal have NOTHING TO DO WITH DEMOCRACY and EVERYTHING TO DO WITH PROFIT AND POWER.
“We the people” must continue to press our Congress-critters to bring back the rule of law - impeach and clean up this mess… withoug that, we will never regain our Democracy and our Honor - those ideals on which this flag stands.
“We must be the change we seek.” Ghandi
TALK to family, friends, neighbors… TALK to Congress.
You can be on the frontlines of change.
Respect for the anthem should go without saying, but within reason: let’s not become freakishly nationalistic, either. If I have my history right the Brits started playing their national anthem before movies in Britain during WWII, a “tradition” that stuck as far as the 1970s when they finally came to their senses and quit. But remember after the 2001 attacks how the seventh-inning stretch was replaced with “God Bless America” at ballparks? The Yankees are STILL at it. It’s no longer patriotism at this point, no longer respect for the nation. It’s sheer nationalistic creepiness. And when anthem behavior is turned into a litmus test of loyalty, as in the case of that alleged Army chaplain (a lot of material on Black Five must be qualified with the word “alleged”), it only underscores the creepiness factor further.
Oliver,
I would encourage you to go back and read my post. No where did I say that our military members are more American, or more patriotic, than anyone else. Nor did I say that back in the States people would laugh at the National Anthem. Instead, I said that after one or two false starts people would probably laugh about it (the experience) and take their seats. I stand by that assertion.
The post was not meant to degrade anyone, but to lift up the discipline of the folks over here doing a very difficult job.
Thank you for showing the respect you do when the anthem is played.
I would encourage you all to take a look at the post again and see it for what it is - not inferring something that is not implied.
I would encourage you all to take a look at the post again and see it for what it is - not inferring something that is not implied
Where have I seen that before, Oliver?
“The post was not meant to degrade anyone, but to lift up the discipline of the folks over here doing a very difficult job.”
Jeff Foxworthy recently hosted an award show where he gave a rant about why he likes country music. Among the things he said was, “Fans of country music love their families.” The obvious implication is that people who don’t love country music, don’t love their families.
We live in a world where the Republicans and their cronies in the media have been using that tactic for a decade or so to attack the left. Because of this, it is not surprising that we’ve become sensitive to these kinds of underhanded attacks.
What you wrote could be interpretted either way, but I apologize if I got it wrong.
Stop with the “They did it first” nonsense, Clem.
Step up.
If you got it wrong, it was because you expect on;y eeeeevil from Republicans. Then you act like they did something wrong when they don’t meet your expectations.
Jeff Foxworthy didn’t have thing number 1 to do with this.
If I read it wrong, you read it wrong. Stop blaming other people for your mistakes.
Even when I apologize, you still attack me. That’s cause you are an nasty person. You are exactly what you project on others. You hate yourself so much, that you must pretend others are just like you so you can hate them without realizing you hate yourself.
If you had any redeeming qualities, it would be sad.
As it is, I just have to wait till the day your psychological defenses crumble and you finally put a bullet in your brain.
you still attack me
You call that an attack? That was just some good advice.
I got your attack right here:
Clem, Shut The Fuck Up! You’re boring me to tears…
You hope I die because you’re an arrogant, phony, self - absorbed prick.
I hope you live to be 100 years old and then some, because you’re an arrogant, phony, self - absorbed prick. I hope you remain as ignorant of your defects at the age of 100, as you are today.
You will never be happy — that’s my prediction, not my wish, Clem.
“You call that an attack? That was just some good advice.”
No it wasn’t, Frank. It was a pathetic attack in hopes of getting into another flamewar to feed you psychological need for abuse.
Join a S&M club and get it out of your system.
Jeff Foxworthy recently hosted an award show where he gave a rant about why he likes country music. Among the things he said was, “Fans of country music love their families.” The obvious implication is that people who don’t love country music, don’t love their families.
We live in a world where the Republicans and their cronies in the media have been using that tactic for a decade or so to attack the left. Because of this, it is not surprising that we’ve become sensitive to these kinds of underhanded attacks.
Was this meant to be apologetic? Yes or no?
Because it was this portion of your half - hearted apology that I was addressing.