Or something. Check out this video.
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Ummmm, poor impression of Bush.
And the video would be better if it was based on facts: You see, Stem Cell Research isn’t illegal, you idiot. It just isn’t funded by taxpayers to the federal government, since many in the country find harvesting & destroying embryos objectionable. In those states where people do not have an objection (ie, California, Missouri) they’ve voted to provide funding for research. That’s called federalism. Look it up.
Of course, imposing your moral beliefs on others throughout the nation is something the “progressives” are wont to do, especially if it’s using someone’s money to fund something they find objectionable.
St Wendeler, thankfully, the United States has always been a curious society and have used the power of the purse to fund scientific endeavors going back at least to the Lewis and Clark Expedition.
It seems that you would desire that we not retain our scientific edge over other nations which spend liberally on scientific and economic programmes. Of course, the option is always open to you to leave these shores if you really oppose Federally-funded science. Try Angola, Guatemala or Kazakhstan, for instance. I certainly know we can live with fewer stupid Americans.
Yes, better we throw out embryos than use them to save people’s lives. Just so some conservative can feel better about himself. Yes, that’s a much better path to take. Gawd, you people.
Hey St Wendeler, do you think that I can withhold my paying taxes to the federal government? Because I find basically everything its done in the past 7 years objectionable. Shit, those assholes owe me a lot of money!
You’re a fucking idiot.
Hey St Wendeler, do you think that I can withhold my paying taxes to the federal government? Because I find basically everything its done in the past 7 years objectionable. Shit, those assholes owe me a lot of money!
You’re a fucking idiot.
Wendeler: “imposing your moral beliefs on others throughout the nation is something the ‘progressives’ are wont to do…”
Hmm… Let’s see, banning the use of federal funds for stem cell research, banning abortion, abstinence-only sex-ed, gay marriage amendment, Bush’s “faith-based” initiative, banning medical marijuana…
Hey, wait, those are all conservative programs! That can’t be! That would mean that Wendeler is either ignorant or a tool.
“That’s called federalism. Look it up.”
And tool it is!
Of course, if Oliver spent as much time reading the news as he did trolling for poorly produced attack ads, he’d know we’ll soon be able to get stem cells without destroying embryos.
Please Mr. Willis: don’t stand in the way of science.
From Farris’s linked article:
So, they inject the patient with a virus that might give them cancer. Who’s going to volunteer for that trial?
Also:
What was your point again, Farris?
Who’s going to volunteer for that trial?
Botox users.
said Wernig: “It is now really important to continue, if not intensify…
Says the guy who stands to rake in a ton of dough if the government were to fund embryonic research. Why is it only a conflict of interest if you work for an oil or pharmaceutical company but never if you’re a research scienctist who calls for more government spending on their field?
Why is it only a conflict of interest if you work for an oil or pharmaceutical company but never if you’re a research scienctist who calls for more government spending on their field?
The difference. You’re asking the difference between a private oil or drug company. And an MIT research institute.
Really.
There’s no way you can actually be this fucking stupid.
Hey St Wendeler, do you think that I can withhold my paying taxes to the federal government? Because I find basically everything its done in the past 7 years objectionable. Shit, those assholes owe me a lot of money!
You’re a fucking idiot.
Thanks for the kind words! I love the sailor talk!
Ummm, I wish it were so mambochick. But the fact that you AND I both would like to withdraw our tax money b/c we find objectionable so much of what our government does is proof that our government does too much.
Just like the exploding amount of $$ in political campaigns is evidence that influencing government has become a competitive advantage for companies, groups, and individuals.
Q: if the government can tax you at a 20% rate, what perrcentage of your money is yours?
A: 0%, because each year you have to justify keeping the other 80%.
Thus, you spend more time & money trying to influence the government for tax revenues, tax breaks, or some favorable legislation which hurts competitors, suppliers, customers, etc.
Hmm… Let’s see, banning the use of federal funds for stem cell research, banning abortion, abstinence-only sex-ed, gay marriage amendment, Bush’s “faith-based” initiative, banning medical marijuana…
Hey, wait, those are all conservative programs! That can’t be! That would mean that Wendeler is either ignorant or a tool.
“That’s called federalism. Look it up.”
And tool it is!
1 - Banning funds is not banning research. In my state of Missouri, we approved funding for stem cells (despite the fact that it was a giveaway to a handful of biotech companies here in the state). (federalism)
2 - Abortion has not been banned, nor are there calls to do so by the mainstream conservatives. If Roe v. Wade was overturned today, State legislatures would decide whether abortions should be legal - and each local rep would be answerable to their constituents. (federalism)
3 - gay marriage amendment. Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) was signed by Clinton, which does not allow the Fed government (ie, in your 1040) to recognize same-sex or polygamous marriages. The Bush-backed Gay Marriage Ban would create ability for states to allow civil unions. (federalism)
4. Abstinence-only sex ed - Both abstinence and safe sex should be taught in our schools. However, lip service should not be paid to either with equal time given to the each. Abstinence is the preferred way to avoid pregnancy, STDs, etc and decreasing risks of various behaviors should be presented (ie, Abstinence = no risk; safe sex methods have these risks, unprotected sex has this risk). Along with that should be implications of teen parenthood. Hey, I disagree with abstinence-only; also disagree with purely focusing on which condoms work and feel best and is being taught at younger & younger ages, as parodied on South Park.
5 - Faith Based Initiative - It should be noted that it was non-denominational. It should be also noted that organizations that have a holistic approach to helping those in need are more successful and dedicated than those that simply hand out checks and/or focus on only economic issues.
6. Banning Medical Marijuana - Please note that Clarence Thomas voted against the ban, while many libs on the court voted in favor of it. Also note that National Review is a huge proponent of legalizing drugs entirely, especially weed.
The difference. You’re asking the difference between a private oil or drug company. And an MIT research institute.
Really.
There’s no way you can actually be this fucking stupid.
Actually, the Stem Cell Research initiative in Missouri (passed in 2006) was being pushed by universities AND PRIVATE COMPANIES.
Don’t be so naive to think that scientists are as pure as the wind-driven snow.
A researcher saying “We need more government spending on stem cells” is no different than an Pfizer exec saying “We need more government spending so we can develop a new drug.” or an Enron exec saying “We need more government spending so we can study fuel efficiency.” They’re all lobbying the government to further their own interests using “the common good” as a sales pitch.
St Wendeler, you miss my whole point. You were bitching about how liberals were trying to use Joe Bob’s tax dollars to fund a program which he morally opposes, and how that’s wrong. So you must concede that I can withhold my tax dollars because I find the Iraq war morally objectionable. Reading comprehension, man… try it sometime.
Although I agree with you on one point… THIS government has done far, FAR too much.
It’s nice to have a replacement idiot for Frank. Welcome, you dumb bastard.
http://digg.com/political_opinion/Oliver_Willis_Forgets_His_Own_Hate_When_Attacking_Other_Bloggers
Actually, the Stem Cell Research initiative in Missouri (passed in 2006) was being pushed by universities AND PRIVATE COMPANIES.
And the article he linked to and the quote he attacked was from someone at the non-profit MIT Research Institute. Then he asked how that’s different than a private company that wants to create and sell products for profit.
Then he said there’s no difference.
There’s no way someone can actually be that fucking stupid.
Pop Quiz, August: if the Feds decide to start funding stem cell research and MIT-R receives one of the grants thereby increasing Dr. Wernig’s workload, his take-home pay will
A) Increase
B) Decrease
With the grants in place and once the clinical trials start running, the chances that Dr. Wernig will be published more frequently directly leading to more fame and job opportunities will
A) Increase
B) Decrease
Take your time…
Today August learns never to underestimate the stupidity of the idealogically blinkered.
Farris - And don’t forget that Uni prof’s consulting fees and economic opportunities in private sector increase.
WRT the MO stem cell initiative, here was one of the chief proponents. I think life-saving cures are great… I’m just saying that you should not be so naive as to think that the scientist and other affiliated organizations (ie, research-to-market firms, biotech businesses, consultants, etc) don’t have a personal interest in getting us to fund their revenue stream.
So your argument is that a non-profit organization, if receiving more money in government grants, will simply give all that extra money to employees there in the form of higher salaries. In addition, you believe this organization is not genuine in its goals because it has employees who possibly would like to do their job more.
It continues to amaze me that there is even a remote possibility you can actually be this fucking stupid.
And God knows that biotech cures would never happen without Stem Cell Research that is: 1, Embryonic; and 2,Federally funded
I mean, Chimpy W. McBushitler has brought a new dark age of medicine to this country since he won’t allow fed funds to do the research.
Despite the fact that we have a very healthy Biotech industry today (see Amgen, Celgene, Genentech, etc, etc).
If you (like me) want cures to flourish, invest in the biotech industry with your own money (as I do). But, do you have to force others to invest in the industry?
So your argument is that a non-profit organization, if receiving more money in government grants, will simply give all that extra money to employees there in the form of higher salaries. In addition, you believe this organization is not genuine in its goals because it has employees who possibly would like to do their job more.
The logic of a kindergartner. I know, I’m the father of one and I see this every day.
What do you think the money being granted would be used for? Some will go towards capital equipment (ie, the labs, buildings, etc that is used to perform the research). Some will go towards increasing salaries to attract human capital into the industry, from one firm to another, etc, etc. When the government subsidizes something, it tends to crowd out private investment.
I believe that Dr. Wernig is genuine in the goals of his research. I also belive that Dr. Wernig is not stupid, and that he has taken an Econ 101 course at some point in his life. I am beginning to question, however, if August has.
If the good doctor was as altruistic as you make him out to be, then we wouldn’t know who Dr. Wernig is. He’d have insisted on being credited as “a scientist working at one of the nation’s top universities”.
I also “belive” that I am a poor spellr.
This thread continues to demonstrate that the right has a fundamental misunderstanding of how science works. They think it’s like a corporation. As a scientist on a university campus, I can tell you… it’s not.
Listen, guys, you don’t go to college for 4 years and then graduate school for another 5-7 years to get your PhD and work as a university researcher because of the amazing salary. We don’t earn much, especially considering the massive amount of education we go through. Plus, have you ever even MET a research scientist? People don’t go through all the shit they go through to work in academia for the money benefits… they do it because they’re sick in the head and love doing this stuff.
Wendeler, I feel so, so sorry for your kindergartner.
If the good doctor was as altruistic as you make him out to be, then we wouldn’t know who Dr. Wernig is. He’d have insisted on being credited as “a scientist working at one of the nation’s top universities”.
Yes, because in addition to right-wingers never scoffing at unnamed sources, working at one of the most prestigious medical research facilities in the country is a blow to ones credibility and association with it has no business being taken into consideration as the source of a valid statement.
Are you really this fucking stupid?
Mambo -
I’ve met a research scientist. And I know St Wendeler has as well. In fact he scientist and I were at the Wendeler’s wedding together.
But that was just a strawman argument wasn’t it? Whether most research scientists earn much or not is inconsequential to your argument.
Here’s an op-ed in the New York Times about another scientist/physician who see’s biomed research as moving away from a “science” direction and more to a money direction. Has he not met any research scientists either?
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/13/opinion/13crichton.html?ex=1181448000&en=9b502343ff01d6d6&ei=5070
All this bickering doesn’t matter anyway. St. Wendeler’s original post was correct. The stem cell “ban” was only to ban federal funding. It did not make stem cell research (embryonic or otherwise) illegal. There hasn’t been a scientist arrested for doing research into “illegal” stem cells.
If you want stem cell research, buck up.
Brian - You failed to mention that I know someone who’s a IP attorney as well, whose focus as an undergrad was biology, with the goal of being able to protect intellectual property in the bio-med industry.
Also know a guy who consults to universities on how to take commercially-viable products into the marketplace.
I know, I know… these people don’t exist, because scientists only do what they do b/c they love their work.
Oh, and Brian… your last line should’ve read:
If you want embryonic stem cell research, buck up.
If you want stem cell research, buck up.
An often expressen opinion, which on its face seems to ignore that the majority of tax-paying Americans support Stem Cell Research, and support using taxpayer funds to finance research into it. We, the majority, are trying to buck up, like you say, so if you could, please don’t stand in our way.
Good point. Thanks. I could have sworn I put embryonic in there. I blame the computer. But then I don’t know any computer experts either, so how can I know?
We, the majority, are trying to buck up, like you say, so if you could, please don’t stand in our way.
Really? It seems that a potential majority are trying to have everyone else buck up. Under the silly theory that only the federal government could fund this sort of research.
ah, the Tyranny of the Majority…
Stem Cell Research (embryonic and otherwise) is occurring every day in this country.
It seems that a potential majority are trying to have everyone else buck up.
“Potential” Majority my aching ass, firstly. Secondly, um, I’m not sure how to say this that doesn’t come off condescending, but see the thing is thats kinda how representative government works. If the majority of the people want it and want it funded with their money, it should get funded. Beats the opposite paradigm with Iraq, where the majority have to fund the war that only about 1 in 4 people want anymore, but thats a seperate discussion. If 60% of the people support funding for embryonic stem cell research(and an undecided 5% doesn’t seem to mind it enough to oppose it) then why shouldn’t it get funded.
St Wendy: I’m trying to make sure I’m following here, you’re arguing that the existence of capitalism proves that science is a conspiracy?
Or okay, I’ll try to be fair. Are you arguing that, since its possible for potentially life-saving medical research to yield comercially viable products, that no public funds should ever support such projects, even when the public at large in fact does support them? No public funds whatsoever then to, say, cancer research? To alternative energy? Disease prevention? Nothing? You want to leave all medical research to whatever is so deemed necessary by the existing commercial demand for it?
…well if I’ve gotten that wrong let me know. Or if I’ve gotten it right, I hope all the Enzyte, Zoloft and Propecia helps take your mind off all the heart attacks.
What made your ass ache? Please leave your sexual fantasies out of this discussion.
I said potential majority simply because this topic is not on the radar screen of most voters. So while polls may show that voters support government funding of stem cells, that doesn’t mean that they support it so much that they will “throw the bums out” over it if they don’t override a president’s veto, etc.
Most people if given a choice between life saving cures on one hand, and pretty much anything else on the other are going to choose the life saving cures. Even though there’s not a single life saving cure thats been developed with embryonic stems cells.
Hint to the Democratic party, put these initiatives on state ballots like Missouri did, there’s an argument to be made that Senator Jim Talent lost due in large part to this measure.
“Even though there’s not a single life saving cure thats been developed with embryonic stems cells.”
Yeah. Right on! Except maybe if there was more funding for it then scientists could develop said life-saving cures.
Why do you (Farris, Brian, Wendeler) think that embryonic stem cell research should be held to a different standard than other types of research that ARE federally funded? Why should ridiculously unpopular and wasteful “ideas” like the Iraq war deserve federal funding, while embryonic stem cell research does not? Why should I, as a taxpayer wholly disapproving of everything this administration has strived to do, pay taxes to the federal government for the funding of this activity in lieu of programs I actually WANT my tax dollars to go to?
I don’t know the answer to the first two questions, but I know the answer to the third: because that’s the way our fucking system works. Some of your tax dollars are gonna go to places that you don’t want them to go. That’s the way it is, and the way it has to be. Chaos and a wholesale lack of tax revenue is the other option, if people were to give just what they wanted in taxes.
Anyway, my point… you guys are dicks.
Note that we also have a duly elected President who is Constitutionally authorized to exercise a veto.
A Majority of people in the 1800s approved of slavery, even though it was morally wrong (then and now). Does that mean that the federal government should have subsidized it? I mean, a majority likes it.
That’s called the tyranny of the majority. One of the reasons we have a Republic is to mitigate such tyranny.
Public funds do go to cancer research.
Public funds do go to alternative energy (with lackluster results, unfortunately).
Public funds do go to subsidize wasteful & idiotic agriculture (sugar)
Public funds do go to Stem Cell Research.
And regardless of what the majority wants, Stem Cell Research (embryonic and otherwise) is currently happening. And the feds are even funding some embryonic stem cell research.
Oh, and MamboChick - You say that you’re a scientist in one comment, yet you swear like a 12th grader. What gives? Most scientists I know write and speak more intelligently than anything you’ve written here.
Anyway, my point… you guys are dicks.
And with that, I give up. I get it. Chimpy McBushHitler stops those noble scientists from doing the research he wants. Got it.
Wow Oliver, you really get the C list trolls-The RNC must be hurting for money.
“Why do you (Farris, Brian, Wendeler) think that embryonic stem cell research should be held to a different standard than other types of research that ARE federally funded?”
Well?
Anyway, my point… you guys are dicks.
Or, Screw you Guys, I’m going home.
And Mambo, why not let federalism be your guide, instead of imposing some one-size fits all solution?
Have 75% income tax at the state level and reduce fed inc taxes to what state taxes are today. People in each state would be able to choose what “government services” they want to “invest in” and the Feds would only be involved in the Common Defense and other enumerated powers in the Constitution.
So, you could move to Vermont or Washington D.C. and create your socialist utopia with all the social programs you want. “Free” healthcare, “free” abortions on demand, “free” needles, “free” condoms, etc. (Free’s great as long as you can afford it.)
Meanwhile, all the Christo-fascists could move to Jesusland, marry their 1st cousin and avoid lifesaving cures like the plague.
Instead, you want to decide what’s best for everyone. How arrogant.
And, keep in mind that there is a heck of a lot more social spending in the fed government budget than defense spending. In fact, if you were to compare each of the categories at that site to the GDP for each year, I think you’d see that Defense spending is declining as a % of GDP while social spending is constant or increasing as a % of GDP.
Facts… they suck.
Brian: You can give up without answering my questions. I encourage it, actually. Thanks for conceding.
Wendeler, I curse because I’m not a strong enough person to deal with your brand of idiocy without getting so annoyed as to lose my desire to talk civilly to you and your ilk. I suppose its a personal problem.
“Have 75% income tax at the state level and reduce fed inc taxes to what state taxes are today. People in each state would be able to choose what “government services” they want to “invest in” and the Feds would only be involved in the Common Defense and other enumerated powers in the Constitution.”
That’s not what we’re debating here, Wendy. We’re debating the topic of federal funding for stem cell research within our current system. If you want to talk about federalism on a broader scale (e.g., not pertaining solely to stem cell research), and talk about a massive revolution in the United States’ tax codes… well, I think we can find more common ground there than you might think. But again, that’s not what we’re talking about.
“And, keep in mind that there is a heck of a lot more social spending in the fed government budget than defense spending.”
—What’s your point, man? This has little to nothing to do with what we’re supposed to be talking about. Stop all the diversion.
“Instead, you want to decide what’s best for everyone. How arrogant.”
Yes, like a parent telling their 4-year-old kid to eat their vegetables… I’m telling everyone what’s best for them. That may be arrogant, but its also right.
Arguing with you people is like a Martian talking to a fungo.
Twats…they suck.
Instead, you want to decide what’s best for everyone. How arrogant.
While I concede your point regarding the tyrrany of the majority to a degree, if you’re insisting that the idea of providing govt funds to a medical research project when the majority of the public supports it, then are you trying to suggest that, for instance, Govt funding going to curing cancer is tyrranical? Seriously I’m kind of drowning in the cognative dissonance here.
Facts… they suck.
You mean like how defense as a percentage of GDP is completely irrelevant, because the actual money the government can spend in the budget- the Federal discretionary funds- has over 65% devoted in 2008 to the DoD? Yeah, I can see how that would suck to you, what with it proving how utterly full of shit you are.
I was waiting for the juvenile pseudo-Libertarian “only a small part when you use math even the government doesn’t” bullshit, and you truly did not fail to disappoint.
I owe SaveFarris an apology. To have thought that was fucking stupid….
The quality of education is, is not lower than 15 years ago
Teachers must be paid based on performance
We are killing the rainforest
An integrated, segregated society is better