Oliver Willis

34 Responses to “The War In America”

1. 1 Bobo
   Aug 31st, 2006 at 5:19 pm

   Hopefully people will see who the real enemy within is.

   Everyone of good will should see, hear, talk to evangelicals…especially the zelots, and understand how dangerous they are.

   Bobo

2. 2 Kirk
   Aug 31st, 2006 at 5:43 pm

   ANY person who practices the notion that either its their religion or the highway is dangerous. I don’t care if you are Christian, Buddhist or Islamic. Its all the same.

3. 3 Duros62
   Aug 31st, 2006 at 5:56 pm

   Holy Crap!! (no pun intended)
   “Kids on Fire”? Seriously?
   Wow, just…y’know. Wow.

4. 4 SaveFarris
   Aug 31st, 2006 at 5:57 pm

   Of all the days you would try to highlight this, could you have picked a worse day?

5. 5 Duros62
   Aug 31st, 2006 at 6:11 pm

   Yes, Farris, that actually happened! Bush is dead! It’s all true, I tellz ya!

6. 6 frameone
   Aug 31st, 2006 at 6:12 pm

   I’m with Duros. Kids on Fire? WTF.

7. 7 frameone
   Aug 31st, 2006 at 6:14 pm

   Farris,

   Speculative fiction is not nearly as fucking crazy as summer camps called “Kids on Fire” where children are taught to “take back American for Christ.” For crying out loud get some freaking perspective.

8. 8 Oliver Willis
   Aug 31st, 2006 at 6:19 pm

   Random movie hyped by Matt Drudge vs. ingrained religion camp feeding the next generation of con leaders.

   THEY MUST BE EQUAL BECAUSE THE TALKING POINTS SAY SO!!!!

9. 9 Rounds77
   Aug 31st, 2006 at 6:54 pm

   Talk about wolves in sheep clothing. The music on that site is very deceiving.

10. 10 Unpartisan.com Political News and Blog Aggregator
    Aug 31st, 2006 at 10:15 pm

    Controller in Ky. crash slept 2 hours

    In the day leading up to the crash of Comair Flight 5191, a federal investigator says the air traffi

11. 11 MM
    Aug 31st, 2006 at 11:47 pm

    well, I’m no christian, but at least they aren’t hacking off peoples heads with butterknives.

12. 12 frameone
    Sep 1st, 2006 at 3:18 am

    “well, I’m no christian, but at least they aren’t hacking off peoples heads with butterknives.”

    Ya, our extremists are so much cuter than theirs … especially when you hear a kid say “we’re being trained to be god’s army” just after shots of kids pledging allegiance to the Chrisitan flag. Did you watch the trailer? I can’t think of any negative consequences of indoctrinating a whole generation of kids with these kinds of ideas. Can you?

13. 13 Nimrod Gently
    Sep 1st, 2006 at 7:28 am

    Speaking as a Briton I am going to watch the fuck out of that Channel 4 documentary.

14. 14 Dugger
    Sep 1st, 2006 at 9:56 am

    Are the bright and compassionate progressives here saying that the real problem is US Christian fundamentalists? Is that what you want your leaders to address as top priority (I mean, of course, after the Bush, Cheney and Rummy show trials)? Or are you even saying that Christian fundamentalists are even remotely close to being the problem Islamic fundamentalists are???

    MMs point is well taken.

    Lets make it a quiz. How many radical US Christian groups have flown into the side of Islamic buildings and murdered innocents there? You go first Nimrod.

    What, can’t name any? Well, lets make it easier for you. Then, how many Islamic people can you who have been beheaded in the US by radical Christian groups?

    frame, you want that one?

    Have at it boys. Lets really document how horrible those Christians are - you know, the ones Hodean was sucking up to - the ones he thinks are just as bad as radical Islamic groups.

15. 15 NotAllTheSame
    Sep 1st, 2006 at 10:06 am

    So, they’re Pentecostal Christians. The Pentecostal denomination has always been enthusiastic. What’s the problem? Our nation is made up of many different types of people, including them, including Agnostics, including Jews, including Muslims, and many other faiths, all of whom, one way or another, are trying to teach their children what they believe is right. Keep in mind that they did not pick these kids out of their homes, these children were likely brought to Church by their parents, and this has been going on since day 1 of man and religion. I think it is wrong for you to insinuate that they are, or will be, something that is bad about this country, and to assume the worst of them. Honestly, who are you to judge? Also, since your position seems to be that they will one day become politically minded, what are you afraid of? Someone else’s point of view? You shouldn’t assume that, just because someone is Christian, that they would run the show like the current pres. He is doing whatever he thinks will help him to appease the evangelical vote, though his policies regarding war, environmentalism, corporate profits, and cronyism, show that he is anything but evangelistic in his core. Not all Christians are impressed by that, and it is not right for you to assume so and single out Pentecostals and show them in a bad light.

16. 16 frameone
    Sep 1st, 2006 at 10:32 am

    “Enthusiastic”? Give me a break. What I saw on in that trailer and the video clips from the film is very frightening. Have you watched them? The woman who runs the camp says on camera

    I want to younf people as committed to the cause of Jesus Christ as the young people to the cause of Islam. I want to see them as radically laying down their lives for the gospel as they are over in Pakistan, in Isreal, and Palestine and all those different places, because we have, excuse me, we have the Truth.

    That isn’t “enthusiasm”. That’s dangerous.

17. 17 midderpidge
    Sep 1st, 2006 at 10:57 am

    I live in an area where certain churches burn books. se Including Bibles that aren’t their version.

    To say Christians don’t do these things is ridiculous. In the past in this country, we are talking about exterminating Native Americans, justifying slavery, persecuting Jews, persecuting gays, persecuting women, bigotry of all stripes. Some of the zealots that still approve of these things consider themselves upstanding moral christians.

    From the KKK website:

    “Welcome to the Ku Klux Klan!

    Bringing a Message of Hope and Deliverance to White Christian America! A Message of Love NOT Hate!”

18. 18 NotAllTheSame
    Sep 1st, 2006 at 11:33 am

    There is nothing about the trailers which suggest that they will be blowing themselves up, justifying slavery, or persecuting jews. Although I do not know the woman except by what I see there, it sounds to me like her position is more of someone who will not allow the Christian faith to simply wilt, but to actively inspire people to live the faith and defend the religion as opposed to those who simply go to Church as a matter of habit. It also sounds to me like a bit of culture shock to you guys. You’re probably freaking out because they are doing the shaking thing, hands waving, all that kind of stuff. Not my cup of tea, but I have known Pentecostals all my life and they have always been like this. Obviously, it is possible that someone in one of these camps could grow up and go nuts, but it is possible that anyone, anywhere, could go nuts. You are assuming the worst of people that you neither know or understand.

19. 19 NotAllTheSame
    Sep 1st, 2006 at 11:42 am

    It is interesting to see that Bush supporters aren’t the only people given to irrational fears.

20. 20 Duros62
    Sep 1st, 2006 at 12:40 pm

    There is nothing about the trailers which suggest that they will be blowing themselves up,…
    Well, no, not yet. they’re kids, for G*d’s sake.

    Camp Kids on Fire; Swimming, Canoeing, Archery, Martydom and Sainthood.

    It is interesting to see that Bush supporters aren’t the only people given to irrational fears.
    Never said otherwise.

21. 21 frameone
    Sep 1st, 2006 at 5:43 pm

    “You are assuming the worst of people that you neither know or understand.”

    I’m sorry but that’s bullshit. These people have a clearly stated agenda: To “reclaim America for christ” and they have decided that national politics, not the church pulpit, is the arena in whcih this needs to be done.

    I don’t care if christians use metaphors of war (onward christian soldiers blah, blah) to stir the faithful, but this woman is referencing specific countries and behavior in an entirely non-metaphoric way. Christians, she says, need to be willing to die for their faith just like these other crazy fucking idiots.

    I don’t need to have her over to tea know she’s a dangerous nut.

22. 22 NotAllTheSame
    Sep 5th, 2006 at 10:29 am

    Your irrational fear of Christian promotion is what is dangerous.

23. 23 frameone
    Sep 5th, 2006 at 11:56 am

    “Your irrational fear of Christian promotion is what is dangerous.”

    How so? I’m not running around telling five year olds that unless they reclaim America for Madalyn Murray O’Hair that the ACLU will come and kill their pets, or whatever.

    I don’t care what anyone’s religion or how they choose to prosletyze, right up until that start suggesting that American born again kids ought to be as committed to Christ as Islamic suicide bombers are to Islam. I’m fine with them right up until they start arguing that America is a Christian nation. A lot of christians may live here but this ain’t a Christian nation, my friend, in the sense that the Consitution strictly prohibits the establishment of a national reigion.

24. 24 NotAllTheSame
    Sep 5th, 2006 at 3:25 pm

    The fact that the Constitution included language intended to prevent another Church of England does not mean that it encouraged a religionless nation, or that religions must be subdued to keep from alarming the agnostics. I hate to repeat myself, but I will for this point, and provide a bit more thought on the matter. “Although I do not know the woman except by what I see there, it sounds to me like her position is more of someone who will not allow the Christian faith to simply wilt, but to actively inspire people to live the faith and defend the religion as opposed to those who simply go to Church as a matter of habit.” This has long been an issue in Church, because so many people are part time Christians instead of strong believers and defenders. To push for that level of faith does not suggest that people will be blowing themselves up. I think that you (and others here) are quick to assume that (and make many other assumptions) and shout it, because you have an irrational fear of Christian promotion, presumably (though, not necessarily) because you have a real problem with Christianity for one reason or another.

25. 25 frameone
    Sep 5th, 2006 at 4:06 pm

    “… that religions must be subdued to keep from alarming the agnostics.”

    I’m sorry but did I say wanted “subdue” anybody? I listen to that woman and other radical christian leaders, however, and I get a distinct feeling that they’d like to subdue me. Like I said, I don’t have a problem with prosletyzing but your own comments seem to suggest that Christianity in this country is some how in need of more than just new converts, it needs to be “defended.” Defended from what? Who’s telling Christians that they can’t worhsip as they wish? Who’s confiscating their bibles and bulldozing their churches? And yet this woman exhorts children to die for christ in the name of “reclaiming America.” From whom exactly?

26. 26 NotAllTheSame
    Sep 5th, 2006 at 4:23 pm

    That’s subdued as in tamed, or under control, not too loud, not too powerful, etc. Defended from our own lifestyles is probably the most accurate American example, but defended from agnosticism, disregard, and disrespect would be the most common definition. The idea is not for them to blow themselves up, but that they will live for Christ to the same degree of emphasis that others might die for their cause.

27. 27 frameone
    Sep 5th, 2006 at 7:44 pm

    “That’s subdued as in tamed, or under control, not too loud, not too powerful, etc.”

    Tamed? Who they hell is trying to tame Christianity? What does that even mean?

28. 28 NotAllTheSame
    Sep 6th, 2006 at 8:57 am

    If you don’t like that one, I gave you three others to choose from. You should be able to get my point from those, and from context clues.

29. 29 frameone
    Sep 6th, 2006 at 1:17 pm

    No I don’t get your point. Who isn’t letting “Christians be Christians” in this country? If you’re talking about allowing them to pray in the classroom or something I think it’s quite clear why that isn’t allowed. For that matter, who is keeping Christians from voicing their opinions on issues, voting, supporting politicians, running for office etc.? It’s a little ridiculous to suggest that Christians are being “silenced” or asked not to be “too loud” when guys like Pat Robertson own whole television networks isn’t it? Indeed, there’s a billion dollar Christian media industry in this country that covers film, radio, television and music production. So who is telling Christians to keep quite?

    The people running this Jesus Camp are extremists and, in my eyes, dangerous ones at that,not because they want to participate in the public discourse, but because their message appears to be that children need to wage war against their fellow Americans to “reclaim America for Christ.” Fuck that, America isn’t FOR christ or Christians. It’s for everyone.

30. 30 NotAllTheSame
    Sep 6th, 2006 at 3:01 pm

    First off, don’t equate self-enriching political shills like Pat Robertson with actual Christians.

    Secondly, care to explain why someone shouldn’t be allowed to pray when & where they want?

    When I was in school, it was not a big deal. No one led the school in prayers, but no one would have made a fuss if students decided to hold a prayer group or if someone wanted to pray to themselves in class or anywhere else. Has that changed?

    A large part of the reason for the rise of “Christian” media is capitalism, pure and simple. Another reason is the fact that Christian references on TV have largely been taken out. I have no desire to debate the huge topic of media vs religion.

31. 31 frameone
    Sep 6th, 2006 at 3:46 pm

    “Secondly, care to explain why someone shouldn’t be allowed to pray when & where they want?”

    Maybe you misunderstand me or maybe you’re being deliberately obtuse. I don’t care if a kid wants to pray in class or on the playground. Or if a Christian student group wants to hold a group prayer before their meetings on campus. But if a teacher wants to lead a classroom in prayer, or if a school disctrict makes prayer part of the daily class activities that’s unconstitutional and you know it.

    I’ll duly note that you concede Christians have hardly been silenced or even muffled in American politics or media.

    If Christians feel the mainstream media isn’t accurately representing them and their faith, well, tell ‘em to get in line with everybody else. Don’t try to claim exclusive grievances when just about every interest group in American feels that are under or poorly represented by the mainstream media. Indeed, far from being “silenced” Christians have been able to muster the resources necessary to create their own alternative media in response.

    The bottom line is that what you consider “normal” Christian prosletyzing in the case of “Jesus Camp” I find extremely disturbing and troubling. And I don’t think one has to hold any animosity toward Christians to think so.

32. 32 frameone
    Sep 6th, 2006 at 6:20 pm

    “First off, don’t equate self-enriching political shills like Pat Robertson with actual Christians.”

    Gee, aren’t you assuming the worst of people that you neither know or understand.

33. 33 NotAllTheSame
    Sep 7th, 2006 at 9:42 am

    Actually, you are the one who said “allowing them to pray in class…isn’t allowed”, though my recollection of the situation and your opinion on it actually mesh.

    Also, to concede on that point, I would first have to enter an argument on it, which I did not, and, in fact, I expressly stated that I wasn’t going to get into that topic.

    Your bottom line is the central argument from which we have trailed, and I suppose we will have to agree to disagree. You think it’s a big deal, I do not.

    On Pat Robertson, I do not know him, but I do know his actions, time and again, tying himself to ridiculous political causes, framed as a Christian leader. That’s what a political shill does. He happens to be making loads of cash doing so. What is there to assume? It is fact.

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