Andrew Sullivan and one of his readers have come to the brilliant conclusion that the reason liberal blogs aren’t pounding out opinions on the Israeli-Lebananon (latest) crisis is that liberals support terror group Hezbollah and/or are anti-semitic. Ever hear anything so dumb? I didn’t think so. The conservative mindset on this and other issues is never capable of anything more complex than “Israel = Good”. As such, the only way they are ever capable of commenting on the story is to defend Israel the way they defend the Bush administration, without regard to any sort of actual facts. I don’t speak for the online left, but the story is clearly more complex than that.
Israel clearly has a right to defend itself, but the question is does the right to such defense come at the expense of innocent bystanders whose only sin is being in Lebanon? At what point does understandable defense turn into blind retaliation?
And it is true, as Duncan points out, that the ongoing media orgy over “Day X of the Middle East Crisis” absolutely ignores the fact that today is Day 1,224 of The War In Iraq In Which American Soldiers Are Dying.
Actually I have been wondering why there hasnt been much of a discussion on liberal blogs. My father is Lebanese and his entire family was just evacuated by France(they are French citizens). My heart is broken by the destruction happening in my family’s beautiful country. There was so much hope, and now there are mass graves filled with children. I just wish everyone would leave Lebanon alone. No more occupiers, please God, please….
The only thing keeping the conservative movement together at this point is their hatred of liberals. Don’t take that away from them, Oliver.
And what exactly has the brainstrust of the right wing blogosphere actually added to our understanding of the situation with their flood of “serious,” “adult” discourse: “OMG IT’S WORLD WAR III!” Which is to say exactly zero.
Naturally, the only thing conservatives like Pedro get worked up about is, again, liberals. There’s literally no limit to the amount of hate a conservative can direct at liberals. There is no line for them, nor shame. A liberal is the worst kind of human alive, which is why they have Coulter and Malkin joke about killing us.
Yea, three posts complaining about american conservatives, not one word of support for the israeli incursion. Sure, liberals aren’t anti-semitic and supportive of terrorist, it is obvious..
Of course we also know that the lebanese government knew of Hezbollahs plan to kidnap soldiers too, so the whole idea of “innocent lebanese” is another ridiculous straw-man.
And for the record, my post relates to what is going on Lebanon, not what you heard once in a Piggly Wiggly in Dothan, AL once. but you get points for your seamless segue into hitler…nice work.
I’m curious now, because in this sense there is a parallel in our war in Iraq in specifically the idea that, here as well as there, civilian casualties are perfectly okay. Israel is attacking Lebanon to get at Hezbollah, and to hear the good doctor tell it, theres no such extent to which they can go that is “too far” to do so, even if that involves gratuitous civilian casualties. Human life becomes inconsequential in the name of fighting a cause, which seems a similar meme in the Iraq conflict, in that the number of civilian and military deaths are minimal if we install a democracy there. The problem in both cases though, is basically the real enemies in both cases, terrorists all, have the same devaluation of human life in the name of their cause. They see their own people as expendable so long as their point of view can be forced on people at gunpoint. Its been asked a thousand times before more eloquently then I could ever manage, but honestly, Why is it necessary to devalue human life in order to repel those whose major defect is that they devalue human life? Why, to fight our enemies, must we adopt their most morally reprehensible trait?
Pedro,
Your basic starting point is actually correct, but then you take it in a completely batsh*t insane direction. Yes, people (and countries) have the right to defend themselves. That’s why invading Afghanistan was (IMHO) completely justified. But then you have nutsos like Ann Coulter (and apparently you) who really just want to go genocidal and destroy all Moslems everywhere. Just to be sure. Just because _you_ can’t tell terrorists from ‘good brown folk’ without actually having to think about it & learn something of another culture, you’d rather just eliminate the entire race. That’s pure evil, man.
You’re also right about conservatives’ wanting to beat on anyone who doesn’t actively rah-rah Israel in anything they do… Israel too has the right to defend themselves against Hezbollah, Hamas, etc. But if they roll into Lebanon or Syria and just start indiscriminately killing everyone they see, we shouldn’t support that. Unfortunately for conservatives, there’s a disturbing parallel between that and Bush’s own policies in the Middle East. Conservatives _have_ to support Israel, even if they go too far, because _we’ve_ already gone too far. And to demand rationed, reasonable response from Israel would only highlight the lack of same here…
Y’know, this never ceases to boggle me. Right-wingers complain that leftys support terror groups & are anti-semitic. At the same time (sometimes in the same breath), they complain about how liberal Hollywood is & how it’s all run by Jews. Not to mention the heavy stereotyping of Jews by deep-south conservative Christians - I and my wife are both first-hand witnesses to this, complete with tales of vestigial horns and baby-blood matzohs.
Really, the wingers just boil down to hatred. They _have_ to have somebody to demonize. And if this gets into Godwinesque comparisons to brownshirts & Hitler’s choice of the Jews as scapegoats, I’m OK with that…
Israel clearly has a right to defend itself, but the question is does the right to such defense come at the expense of innocent bystanders whose only sin is being in Lebanon? At what point does understandable defense turn into blind retaliation?
Statements like THAT are why the conservatives are hammering the liberal blogs.
You have a bunch of terrorists that have been holed up in lebanon for years, with the lebanese tacitly tolerating it (i.e., not fulfilling the UN mandate to remove them for you lefties). The Lebanese “sin”, much like the liberals, is in ignoring the evil amongst them, and becoming apologist for them. Oliver gives us a great example here….Israel has a right to defend itself….BUT…..
How about you start mewling about the fact that Hezbollah has been randomly firing barrage rockets into israel, while hiding amongst the population of Lebanon? Israel responds with precision strikes, at airports, roads etc…TO STOP THE IMPORTING OF MORE ROCKETS not as “retribution”.
Israel right now is the logical culmination of the democrats policy of appeasing terrorists, a la the Wye River accords. And now the Israeli’s are tired of it, tired of its old and weak, and young being randomly blown up. And since the UN is filled with useless, leftist chuckleheads, Israel is, as usual, going to take care of business.
The leftists in America will never learn….luckily the american people have. Stay quiet democrats, the elections are coming up….
The continued meme that Hezbollah would just go away if only the Lebanese would stand up and tell them to is, unsurprisingly, born of basic ignorance of another culture, not to mention history and a host of other pertinent information.
I suppose that these same conservatives think all Colombia needs is a good dose of people power, and then the cartels will go away. Or that the same strategy would have ended the Mafia. Or the Taliban.
Some Lebanese are sympathetic to Hezbollah’s tactics, yes. Others are simply living in fear. In a society where your every action and opinion is held to scrutiny in terms of your relationship to God, one learns quickly the price of dissent, especially when those who claim to speak for God are the ones with all the weaponry.
Did the Klan go away just because the vast majority of us said we wouldn’t tolerate their crap anymore? How about the Aryan Brotherhood?
Finally getting around to invoking the terrorist rationale, eh Peed’? You’re starting to sound like Ward Churchill with that rap about the complicity of civilians.
Only buildings, roads, and bridges? Those magic bombs don’t kill anybody who doesn’t need killing?
I didn’t realize that “smart” bombs were that smart.
Uh oh Frame, youve pointed out pedros lack of logic, that probably makes you a robot-nazi-demon-cat-rapist now or something.
Another fine example of American right-wing exceptionalism. Apparently the Lebanese government hasn’t “done enough” to eliminate Hezbollah (a position which is worthy of discussion), and therefore this means the destruction of Lebanese civilian populations is acceptable (a position I hardly find seriously defensible). Once again a case of “fine for me but not for thee”. Let us suppose some over-agitated “Minutemen” decided to start firing mortars into northern Mexico to try to discourage border crossers. One assumes, then, that if Mexico were to fire a few rockets into Laredo that would be OK then?
This also further highlights why right-wing military theory is losing us Iraq. In battling an insurgency, the correct method is to fight them using the minimum force necessary, with the object of the fight to be winning over the civilian population. A real win is counted less in killing people but convincing them to desert the other side, that it’s in their best interest to work with you. Instead in its usual armchair jingoism, the right-wing views the civilians not as people to be won over, but as the “playing field”, where the win is determined by how many of the opposition can be blown up as horribly as possible. As long as we get some cool pix of flattened buildings and head shots of Zarqawi, or Uday and Qusay, or whoever on the evening news we can root “Hooray for our side!” and call it a day. But the remaining people who occupied those building are not going to be well disposed to your side afterward.
And as legion observed, you’ll excuse me if I don’t get too worked up about right-wing huffing about anti-Semitism after years of “that evil Jew Soros!”
The Lebanese are hardly innocent bystanders any more than the Palestinians are. Both allow terrorists to operate in their midsts. If a Lebanese citizen allows Hezbollah into their home so that Hezbollah can launch missles at Israel in the backyard, then their house is a legitimate military target.
Israel is hardly rolling in mowing down everything that moves. For too many years Israel has been told to show restraint in the face of repeated terrorist attacks. Even Hezbollah admits they did not expect such a response from Israel. Again, it’s like someone said on TV, if the Arabs laid down their weapons there would be peace tomorrow. If Israel lays down its weapons, they will be destroyed.
With respect to the liberal v. conservative blogs, I think the liberals are in a difficult position. Certainly Jews make up a large portion of liberal demographics and yet President Bush is the best friend Israel ever had and the only one (rightly or wrongly) who is not always trying to rein Israel in.
And as we all know, if us chuckleheads had simply had the good sense to elect John Kerry to his rightly deserved position of President, this wouldn’t have happened. Israelies and Hezzbolah would be holding hands singing Kum Ba Yah. If only…
The ones who are in the truly uncomfortable position are the conservative blogs with regard to Iraq. If they talk about actual facts on the ground, they’ll realize our policy has failed, so instead they avoid the subject, like Instapundit does.
By Neocon logic (which is practically an oxymoron), a murderer could be holed up in an apartment building and the most practical solution would be to burn the entire building down.
“Yea, three posts complaining about american conservatives, not one word of support for the israeli incursion. Sure, liberals aren t anti-semitic and supportive of terrorist, it is obvious..”
Now just criticizing American conservatives, in general, makes one an anti-semite and a supporter of terrorists? Pedro’s off his meds again.
Israel responds with precision strikes, at airports, roads etc&
Oh sure… and tv stations, and UN outposts and civilian apartment complexes…
The indiscriminate killing is the current liberal straw man that Ollie and his band of merry men are using to divert the argument.
You see, Israel is NOT just mowing down innocent civilians. This is not to say innocents will not die, they will. But when you let a nest of vipers live under your house…..
Israel is causing as little civilian casualty as is humanly possible, while still attacking Hezbollah. In typical leftist fashion, the argument has become Israel and its “indiscriminate” killing, not Hezbollah’s penchant for hiding munitions in civilian centers and using ballistic munitions that they, literally, don’t know where they are going to hit.
The funniest thing about this thread is that the lefties here are in perfect agreement with Pat Buchanan…you should be proud
/sarcasm
“Or that the same strategy would have ended the Mafia. Or the Taliban.”
Or, um, the insurgents in Iraq.
“Indiscriminatly killing”, eh? I guess it was Israel’s fault that Hezzbolah set up their military instillations in the middle of neighborhoods.
True or false: Israel’s main weapon in this fight are precision-guided missles.
True or false: Hezzbolah’s main weapon in this fight has been suicide bombers in the middle of crowded marketplaces.
Tell me again which side is “targeting civilians”…
I’m not sure John Kerry had the key to middle east peace, but clearly the Bush strategy of not talking to anyone and wishing it would go away has only led to more dead people.
I’m almost loathe to respond to pedro’s incessant trolling, but its symptomatic of exactly the mindset I noted above. Cons are incapable of accomodating more than one thought in their minds at a time. The idea that Israel can defend itself while also not indiscriminately killing innocent Lebanese people is somehow too complex and becomes “liberals hate Jews” (I’ve got two yarmulkes and participation in a Jewish wedding that says otherwise, but thats neither here nor there).
How stupid are you people? Like our war with Al Qaeda, it is clear that the Israelis have superior firepower - but the idea is that with great power comes great responsiblity and the need to be a moral actor in it all. The right would prefer that America and our allies be no better than a Hezbollah guerilla or Mohammed Atta by sacrificing innocents in a manner that simply breeds a next generation of terror. Its a form of idealogical genocide because the only way for that tactic to succeed is to kill everyone.
Farris
Both sides are.
William F. Buckley and I are 100% sure that Mr. Sullivan is not a conservative.
Your words, Pedro, not mine.
Both sides are using terrorist tactics. Both sides are wrong to do so.
Rex
“in specifically the idea that, here as well as there, civilian casualties are perfectly okay.”
No way. Spent a lot of time in the military. That (’perfecly OK’) was NEVER anybody’s mindset. Civilian casualties were to be avoided wherever possible. Civilians are not ‘targeted’. There are times when certain operations have a stronger possibility of inflicting civilian casualties - and that is a factor weighing against (but not necessarily eliminating) consideration of that action. There’s a whole ignorant mindset within a large segment of the left that soldiers like to be fighting wars and killing people - far from it.
And I would like to hear how leftists would protect the lives and property of their citizens - if they were Israeli. Pacifism? Thats a recipe for genocide # 2. Very selective strikes against targets not remotely near civilians? Hezbollah operates within civilian enclaves. Hezbollah would be free to kill at will. Israel’s choice is to be rocketed to obscurity or fight back in way that the not-at-risk world deems not acceptable. If I’m an Israeli, my people come first. It seems like the left’s answer for Israel is just “bleed to death slowly.”
So according to Lugion, unless Israel is sure that they can deter a Hezbollah attack, they should simply bend over and take it and not fire back.
To say that all liberals support terrorists is the biggest strawman of them all. It is dishonest and, well, just fuckin’ mean.
Have a little fire, scarecrow.
But when you let a nest of vipers live under your house& ..
you blow up the house. And possibly the neighbor’s house.
I am not and will not support either side in this conflict. Both sides are using terror, plain and simple.
Is Israel winning yet? If they don’t pull off a clear win here, the neighbors will start noticing and then the whole house of cards starts to fall in. On bush’s watch of course.
They are using truly surgical strikes.
Putting aside the scary knowledge that somebody claiming to be a doctor considers the Israeli strikes to be “truly surgical”…
…the UN might disagree. (Although I think it’s hotblooded to claim that the strike that killed the observers was “intentional.”)
Stupid=easy…
More from Oliver on the latest right-wing mantra of “either Israel gets to kill anyone they want or you hate Jews.” It’s almost too obvious that Andrew Sullivan would become part of this spectacle, as I can’t imagine anyone more……
I am willing to bet that if Hezzbolah had not entered Israeli territory, killed Israeli soldiers and kidnapped 2 Israeli soldiers this wouldn’t have happened. I am also willing to bet that if Hezzbolah and Hamas released the kidnapped soldiers the Israelis would agree to a cease fire.
Wow, so apparently Oliver calls other people dumb, but he–and his gal pal Atrios–are too dumb to read more than the front page of the paper. I read two papers this morning, and both of them had stories on both Israel/Hezbollah AND Iraq.
He accuses others of not being able to process more than one thought, but apparently he can’t either since Israel/Hezbollah being the lead story apparently means their limited brain can’t process stories about Iraq that follow.
Jeez, apparently most people Oliver knows don’t know that newspapers have more than the front page (and comics), and most Democrats and undecideds in Maryland are too stupid to know the party of their Lt Governor and Senate candidates.
“The Lebanese are hardly innocent bystanders any more than the Palestinians are. Both allow terrorists to operate in their midsts. If a Lebanese citizen allows Hezbollah into their home so that Hezbollah can launch missles at Israel in the backyard, then their house is a legitimate military target.”
OK, Hudley (and Pedro too), what about when a group of heavily-armed thugs shows up in your back yard, shoves you and your family up against a wall with AKs, and drops a few quick rounds towards the ‘good guys’ out of your patio & then runs off? What if they drive out into a farmer’s field in the middle of the night, and set a tube up with an ice-blocked mortar round propped into the top? When the ice melts, the mortar fires, and there’s nobody around to blame…oh, except the clueless farmer who ‘let’ the terrorists use his (about to be bown to crap) field.
I don’t know if those tactics have shown up in Hezbollah’s bag yet, but I know for a fact they happen in Iraq on a regular basis. Explain to me just how a return bombing, no matter how ’smart’ deters that kind of tactic?
“Kill ‘em all and let God (or Allah, or Yaweh) sort ‘em out” is not a defensible military tactic - it’s terrorism against terrorism. Is that what you propose
Excellent argument legion.
If the homeowner was responsible for their own security and had their own police force with guns, then I would say “tough cookies” you should have taken care of business.
I love your comment about “I don t know if those tactics have shown up in Hezbollah s bag yet,” as it totally repudiates your whole argument. In other words, you have no idea if this is whats happening, but you feel you have to apologize and make excuses for the terrorists.
I point out, again, that the israeli’s are not blowing everyone up. They are using truly surgical strikes.
Yea duros, you aren’t supporting terrorists, just comparing the only representative democracy in the middle east to terrorists and suggesting that the Israelis are “targeting civilians”…”cukoo,cukoo,cukoo…..”
The idea that Israel can defend itself while also not indiscriminately killing innocent Lebanese people is somehow too complex and becomes liberals hate Jews (I ve got two yarmulkes and participation in a Jewish wedding that says otherwise, but thats neither here nor there).
How stupid are you people? Like our war with Al Qaeda, it is clear that the Israelis have superior firepower - but the idea is that with great power comes great responsiblity and the need to be a moral actor in it all. The right would prefer that America and our allies be no better than a Hezbollah guerilla or Mohammed Atta by sacrificing innocents in a manner that simply breeds a next generation of terror. Its a form of idealogical genocide because the only way for that tactic to succeed is to kill everyone.
This is absurd. It’s exactly this kind of thinking that allowed us to get bogged down in places like Vietnam. Using your line of thinking we NEVER would have dropped bombs like did on Japan because of the civilian casualties.
Lebanon simply wants to be left alone? Then the government there and the people should no longer tolerate Hezbollah operating within their midst or getting pissed when Israel decides it is time they defended themselves.
And Oliver, your implication that Israel is killing civilians with impunity has no merit. Israel cannot defeat the enemy simply because somebody calls “Safe!” when they decide, like cowards to hide their sorry asses amongst the civilian population.
Civilian casualties are a part of war. Always have been. What, did you think no civilians died in WWI and WWII in Europe? Are you truly that ignorant to believe that the only people we killed were German soldiers and Nazis? Over THREE MILLION Axis civilians died during World War II. Tragic, but it happened and it’s going to happen in a war.
Sorry, and I can’t believe I am saying this: Hillary is right on this one.
“If the homeowner was responsible for their own security and had their own police force with guns, then I would say tough cookies you should have taken care of business.”
You mean like the Iraqis and Afghanis?
“I love your comment about I don t know if those tactics have shown up in Hezbollah s bag yet, as it totally repudiates your whole argument. In other words, you have no idea if this is whats happening, but you feel you have to apologize and make excuses for the terrorists.”
That’s impressive… in two consecutive sentences, you are (a) factually wrong (in that I am explicitly giving an example to counter your generalization, not listing reasons to love or hate Hezbollah), and (b) wrong on your inference - Hezbollah are a buch of rabid animals that need to be put down; there is no excuse to justify their actions, now or in the past.
The debate here is about how far should/will Israel go to eliminate that threat? Or as Oliver put it:
“At what point does understandable defense turn into blind retaliation?”
And note, please, that Oliver’s original post complained about Sully’s instinctive reaction to categorize anyone who even wants to have that debate as an anti-semitic terror sympathizer. Which sounds remarkably similar to the tactic you’ve employed in this thread…
The “anti-Semite” tag is also completely disingenuous, as “Semite” isn’t a description solely afforded to Israelis or Jews.
If you hate Arabs, guess what. You’re an anti-Semite.
I think we now know why no one on the left is at all interested in engaging the right on this issue. From the start, the right set the terms of the debate: You’re either for total war or you’re an anti-semite. What rational, intelligent person could accept those terms?
duros please demonstrate an Israeli “terrorist tactic”….
“(I ve got two yarmulkes and participation in a Jewish wedding that says otherwise, but thats neither here nor there).”
Wow, i was an usher in a black wedding and have two Mitchell & Ness Julius Erving throwback jerseys, so I guess I can’t be racist! Awesome!
“I think we now know why no one on the left is at all interested in engaging the right on this issue.”
Good point, Frame. The reason the conservative movement is so discredited is not simply because of their failure to govern. It’s because they consistently demonize and bully their opponents instead of debating them. Hence, in the runup to the Iraq war, supporters were congratulated for their moral courage, their backbone, and their steadfastness; while opponents were called cowards, appeasers, and traitors. Emotion rules the day on the conservative side, so the fact that they’ve used the Israel/Lebanon debate as another opportunity to call liberals names comes as no surprise.
If these are surgical strikes I’d hate to see what just blowing everything up looks like.
If the UN allows Hezzbolah to set up shop in their area accidents will continue to happen.
“Another UN position of the Ghanaian battalion in the area of Marwahin in the western sector was also directly hit by one mortar round from the Hezbollah side last night. The round did not explode, and there were no casualties or material damage. Another 5 incidents of firing close to UN positions from the Israeli side were reported yesterday. It was also reported that Hezbollah fired from the vicinity of four UN positions at Alma ash Shab, Tibnin, Brashit, and At Tiri. All UNIFIL positions remain occupied and maintained by the troops.”
PM Says Iraq Is Front Line of Terror War…
Prime minister says Iraq is battle between ‘true Islam’ and terrorism wrapped in ‘Islamic cloak’…
It s exactly this kind of thinking that allowed us to get bogged down in places like Vietnam.
Actually its the idea that you can invade a country and indiscriminately mow down human beings that led to us getting bogged down in Vietnam.
Pedro
I don’t think I need to demonstrate how firing rockets into suburban neighborhoods could be viewed as a terrorist tactic, but Rheinhard beat me to it.
What, if hezbollah does it, it’s terrorism, but if Israel does it, it’s not.
Ok, then.
There is a misconception that the Lebanese people just allowed Hezbollah to set up shop in their country. There is also a misconception that Hezbollah forced their way in. Lebanon has been plagued with decades of war and occupation by Syria and Isreal. Left with a weak government and no money, Lebanon was not able to care for her people. Hezbollah(with money from Iran and Syria) was able to give healthcare, food and education to a people deseperately needing it. Unfortunately those sevices came with a price.Hezbollah took advantage of people in need. Lebanon has been raped over and over again by its neighbors. I hope the world does not turn its back on the Lebanese people.
More on the complicit UN -
an invasion on northern Israel on March 11, 1978, by the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) caused many dead and wounded among the Israeli population. When Israel responded in self-defense by targeting the then de facto PLO state in southern Lebanon, the Lebanese government denied responsibility for the Palestinian terror and appealed to the U.N. The Security Council where the Carter administration was represented by neophyte diplomat Andrew Young agreed to a resolution demanding Israeli withdrawal and creating UNIFIL with its three objectives. Twenty-nine years later, the only goal that UNIFIL has achieved is the first, the verification of Israel s complete withdrawal from Lebanon.
When Israeli forces completed their pullout from Lebanon in early 2000, Foreign Minister David Levy reminded Annan that it was now up to Lebanon, in collaboration with UNIFIL, to live up to their obligations to deploy the Lebanese army in the south and to secure its border. That the present conflict is occurring is proof positive of the failure of the Lebanese government and of UNIFIL to even attempt to fulfill these obligations. The arsenal and forces that Hezbollah has amassed on Israel s northern frontier were assembled under the eyes of UNIFIL. In fact, accusing the U.N. troops of failure would be inaccurate; enabler might be a more apt description.
William, forget it. Now you’re picking on the left’s own ‘Golden Child’, the United Nations.
They can do no wrong, didn’t you know that?
Always fun to see Cons bring out their elaborate mythology about liberals. Yeah, Jay, the Jews who run Hollywood told us that we have to love the UN and take away your guns or they’d foreclose on our mortgages.
Jay C,
Most of us have no problem criticising the UN. Unlike you guys, we have no unquestionable people or institutions who we worship. We slam the Clintons all the time, the UN all the time, the Kennedys all the time. Even Howard Dean is not immune from my criticism, and that of many other liberal people.
On the other hand, try criticising Coulter or Malkin from a conservative perspective, and it won’t be long before one is tarred and feathered by the cultists who insist that these people can do no wrong.
I thought we were supposed to be rich, Jay, riding in limousines to dinner parties with Barbra Streisand, George Soros, and other Jews to discuss how to subvert America’s Christian values? Or are we supposed to be poor blacks or immigrants who are too stupid, stunted and irrational to understand that Republicans have our best interests at heart? Which warped GOP caricature is it, Jay?
And its always fun to see liberals using cute little nicknames for their ideological counterparts. “Cons”, “Rethuglicans”, “Repugs”, etc.
And what’s this about mortgages? You’re a liberal. It means you’re supposed to be poor. Only us RICH RETHUGLICANS can get mortgages.
Rheinhard…
Let us suppose some over-agitated Minutemen decided to start firing mortars into northern Mexico to try to discourage border crossers. One assumes, then, that if Mexico were to fire a few rockets into Laredo that would be OK then?
OK, let’s suppose exactly that. And let’s say that the Minutemen fired these mortars into a Mexican border town for weeks on end, not aimed at any particular target. And then, let’s say the Minutemen crossed the border into Mexico to kill a few Mexican soldiers and kidnap a few others. Would Mexico then have the right to launch attacks on the places from which the Minutemen operated in Texas? Abso-frickin-lutely.
Now that I’ve laid out the scenario, try to imagine the U.S. Government–with either party in power–allowing the Minutemen to carry on like that.
Jay C, I thought liberals were supposed to be rich effete urbanites? I guess that’s a rogue division of the cult.
duros…
What, if hezbollah does it, it s terrorism, but if Israel does it, it s not.
Well, I’m not sure if you’re serious, but in case you are: Hezbollah is firing unguided rockets into Israel, and has been for weeks. They do not know (or care, one has to assume) where they will hit until they blow up. Israel, on the other hand, has been using aircraft (extremely accurate) and artillery (less accurate but still pretty dang good) to target the launch points of these rockets. The difference is significant and obvious to any objective observer.
I thought we were supposed to be rich, Jay, riding in limousines to dinner parties with Barbra Streisand, George Soros, and other Jews to discuss how to subvert America s Christian values?
Well, sure. That’s the Democratic’s that hold the power baby! The rest of you are, from what I’ve been told, are “working Americans” getting their pockets picked by us rich “Rethugs” all the time.
Or are we supposed to be poor blacks or immigrants who are too stupid, stunted and irrational to understand that Republicans have our best interests at heart?
Hmm. I didn’t say anything with regard to race or ethnicity when talking about poor people. I guess you think all blacks and immigrants are poor. Bigot.
Most of us have no problem criticising the UN.
I’m sure you don’t. The problem is, liberals have a propensity to lecture people to take the UN seriously, buy into all their idiotic treaties (Kyoto, Ballistic Missile, etc), and generally heap upon the institution praise it does not deserve in any way, shape or form. It is a completely USELESS body that is bureaucratic to the core. It coddles dictatorships and other awful regimes. Think about it for a moment. Name a time when the UN reacted to the actions of Robert Mugabe in a similar fashion they react to what Israel is doing. Can you explain rationally how in bloody hell the UN allows the Sudan to sit on the UN Commission on Human Rights?
The entire thing is a joke. Therefore, your proclamation that you have no problem criticizing them really doesn’t mean much.
A great quote from that horrible rethuglican …..Alan Dershowitz
If the UN cannot or will not distinguish between terrorists who target civilians and a democracy that seeks to stop the terrorism while minimizing civilian casualties, it has become part of the problem, rather than part of the solution.
a great quote from that horrible rethuglican….Alan Dershowitz?
If the UN cannot or will not distinguish between terrorists who target civilians and a democracy that seeks to stop the terrorism while minimizing civilian casualties, it has become part of the problem, rather than part of the solution.
A great quote from that horrible rethuglican…Alan Dershowitz
If the UN cannot or will not distinguish between terrorists who target civilians and a democracy that seeks to stop the terrorism while minimizing civilian casualties, it has become part of the problem, rather than part of the solution.
Pedro - You mean the same Alan Dershowitz who thinks torture is justifiable? The same Alan Dershowitz who will call you an anti-Semite if you so much as claim you dislike bagels?
Is what Dershowitz said in that quote right or wrong?
Why is it so hard for lefitsts to actually ADDRESS the argument, instead of constantly attacking the person who made it…?
“Why is it so hard for lefitsts to actually ADDRESS the argument, instead of constantly attacking the person who made it& ?”
Well let’s get the second part out of the way first: Pedro, you’re an idiot. Phew. It feels good to finally get that off my chest. Now for the actual argument.
Dershowitz has, followin much of the right wing, distorted the UNs position to attack a strawman rather than, you know, actually address the argument. The UN is not taking Hezbollah’s side over and above Isreal’s, neither is it comparing one to the other. The UN is arguing on behalf of innocent civilians who have suddenly found themselves caught up in a warzone. Dershowitz and the rest of the right wing would love to deny these people their status as citizens so that we can let the carpet bombing begin. Why not firebomb Beirut? It worked in Dresden.
Because, as I said above, the right believes that the only choice is between total war and utter ruin. They just can’t understand that it is the total war response to terrorist organizations such as Hezbollah itself that leads to the inevitable failure they hope to avoid. Nobdy in Lebanon gives a fuck that Israel is using “smart bombs.” Do you think anyone on the ground looks at the body of a dead family member and thinks, “Well, at least Isreal tried.”? No.
Some of them will mourn and try to move on with their love but just enought of them will turn to follow the first asshole with a gun and an ideology of revenge who seduces them with false promises of reclaiming control of their lives through death. And the cycle goes on. And even as you idiots argue for total war, Israel understands what it’s set in motion.
Israeli officials are now trying to scale back expectations and pull themselves out of the rhetorical hole that the radical conservatives have dug for them:
Over here in the states, the rhetoric only ratchets up as the right wing desperately tries to land as many body blows on the left as it can before, god forbid, calm breaks out again. The right has done nothing but present a cartoonish scenario and cartoonish solutions and anyone who disagrees with them, well, they must be anti-semitic appeasers. The right wing doesn’t give a fuck about Israel or Hezbollah or the Middle East. All of them are just another means through which to attack their real enemy: Democrats.
How do I know that? Because it doesn’t matter to conservatives that the vast majority of Dems and progressives agree that Israel has the right to defend itself. No, to satisfy the right wing you also have to cheerlead for the most extreme response that the right can think up otherwise, say it with me, your an anti-semitic appeaser.
What really makes me laugh, although maybe it should make me cry, is that the first guys, like Dershowitz, to yell the loudest for bringing democracy and freedom to the Middle East, are the quickest to turn right around and argue that democracy and freedom are what make the West so weak in the face of terrorism:
It’s the old argument “They use our freedoms against us so maybe it’s time to consider that maybe we’re too free.” If only we got rid of such quaint notions as human rights and freedom of the press we wouldn’t be in this situation, Dershowitz argues. If only the press would say want we want them to say and promote the idea of total war, if only we could replace human rights with a “sliding scale” definition of civilian that slides at our convenience. Yes, indeed, let’s kill them all and make the world safe for New and Improved Freedom and Democract Lite.
Let me take care of that bold.
That should do it.
Pedro - You’re the one who brought up Dershowitz in the context of his political affiliation. Three times, in fact. My response was to your label.
Republicans treat the UN the same way they treat our own government: they starve it of resources, staff it with incompetent ideologues, and bad mouth it at every turn. Then, when it comes up short they howl “OMG, I totally told you so!” As with our own government, Better to work to improve the organization, rather than taking the Jay C/John Bircher shortsighted approach of undermining it at every opportunity.
I love it when Jay tries to explain why blacks are overwhelmingly Democrats. Comedy. Gold.
Jay, you criticize the U.N. because you say that they “coddle[s] dictatorships and other awful regimes”. What about what the countless dictators that we installed/and or supported(financially or militarily) to combat communism etc. Im not anti-american, so don’t even start, but I don’t think you should blindly throw stones either. Oh. and just in case you don’t know I found this nifty list of said dictators….
Abacha, General Sani Nigeria
Amin, Idi Uganda
Banzer, Colonel Hugo Bolivia
Batista, Fulgencio Cuba
Bolkiah, Sir Hassanal Brunei
Botha, P.W. South Africa
Branco, General Humberto Brazil
Cedras, Raoul Haiti
Cerezo, Vinicio Guatemala
Chiang Kai-Shek Taiwan
Cordova, Roberto Suazo Honduras
Christiani, Alfredo El Salvador
Diem, Ngo Dihn Vietnam
Doe, General Samuel Liberia
Duvalier, Francois Haiti
Duvalier, Jean Claude Haiti
Fahd bin’Abdul-’Aziz, King Saudi Arabia
Franco, General Francisco Spain
Hitler, Adolf Germany
Hassan II Morocco
Marcos, Ferdinand Philippines
Martinez, General Maximiliano Hernandez El Salvador
Mobutu Sese Seko Zaire
Montt, General Efrain Rios
Guatemala
Noriega, General Manuel Panama
Ozal, Turgut Turkey
Pahlevi, Shah Mohammed Reza Iran
Papadopoulos, George Greece
Park Chung Hee South Korea
Pinochet, General Augusto Chile
Pol Pot Cambodia
Rabuka, General Sitiveni Fiji
Montt, General Efrain Rios Guatemala
Salassie, Halie Ethiopia
Salazar, Antonio de Oliveira Portugal
Somoza, Anastasio Jr. Nicaragua
Somoza, Anastasio, Sr. Nicaragua
Smith, Ian Rhodesia
Stroessner, Alfredo Paraguay
Suharto, General Indonesia
Trujillo, Rafael Leonidas Dominican Republic
Videla, General Jorge Rafael Argentina
Zia Ul-Haq, Mohammed Pakistan
Lets dispense first of all with this ridiculous straw man of israel fighting all out war shall we?
THIS is all out war:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Hamburg_-_1944-45.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Dresd_4.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Tokyo_firebombing.jpg
This is not:
http://voanews.com/english/images/ap_israel_lebanon_strikes_14jul06_210.jpg
Paul continues is idiocy with “Nobdy in Lebanon gives a fuck that Israel is using smart bombs”
Uh, yea, see my links to dresden above as to why, if what you say is true, the lebanese are complete and utter idiots. Or they just listen to the american leftists too much and actually BELIEVE what israel is doing is “all out war”.
So lets dispense with this historical revinisism and the lunatic left’s supposition that the “right believes that the only choice is between total war and utter ruin.” Talk about cartoonish, Paul. No, the right believes israel should smash hezbollah, and do it in a fashion that prevents as many civilian casualties as possible. Because at the end of the day, we recognize who the real terrorists are, and who they target, somthing that escapes Paul, Ollie and the rest of his gang of appeasers.
Are you going to ban me now ollie? Or maybe just release some of my personal information to try and shut me up? Just curious….
I love it when Jay tries to explain why blacks are overwhelmingly Democrats. Comedy. Gold.
I did? Where exactly did I do that?
Care to explain why you equate poor people with blacks and immigrants TomY?
Apparently in satirizing your views on why black people are overwhelmingly Democrats, I cut a little close to the bone. Republicans like Jay love to complain about blacks not voting Republican, then manage to do so in the most appalingly condescending ways. Do you deny it, Jay?
Care to explain why you equate poor people with blacks and immigrants TomY?
May I take this one TomY?
http://www.bsos.umd.edu/socy/vanneman/socy441/trends/povrace.html
More evidence of those dastardly jooos and their unprovoked attacks against the UN “security” forces…
The words of a Canadian United Nations observer written just days before he was killed in an Israeli bombing of a UN post in Lebanon are evidence Hezbollah was using the post as a “shield” to fire rockets into Israel, says a former UN commander in Bosnia.
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=37278180-a261-421d-84a9-7f94d5fc6d50
Pedro only likes Jews who share his love of violence toward Arabs. If they happen to be liberal Jews, however, then he lets his anti-Semitism flow like Manischevitz. Never, never ask him about Soros or Streisand. Pedro’s hatred for those Jews would make Goebbels blush.