I have an American flag on my bookshelf at home. It’s a cheap flag I picked up on the Fourth of July in Boston. I like that flag, but I don’t neccesarily need it to remind myself of patriotism. I don’t need to wave it around or drag it to work with me to show off how much I love my country… because I do it every day.
Sorry, repack, it does no such thing. You’re just another guy with an opinion.
You sure don’t know much about history if you think GW Bush is our worst President ever, and you don’t much about military history if you think that the invasion of Iraq was the biggest strategic blunder in our history.
Dr P said you’re a patriot, not a whiz kid…
And having been in 1946, and having finished high school in 1963, I can tell you that the the idea that it was patriotic to dissent, or worse, the highest form of patriotism is to dissent wasn’t even dreamed of until the late 60’s.
ahh yes, the parade of “patriots”
Our Founding Fathers are veritably spinning in their graves…
Hows that? By wallowing in it’s war dead? By serving as a member of the armed forces? By advertising each and every foible this country has that you believe will forward the agenda of your party, at the detriment of the country at large?
Stop hiding behind your belief that the highest form of patriotism is dissent…it isn’t. The highest form of patriotism is quiet service, that perhaps even goes unrecognized , to forward the goals of your country.
You’re not a patriot ollie, you are a cheap opportunist who is on a constant job interview in hopes of landing something that will give you an office with a view instead of a nameless cubicle.
I wonder how many of these self styled “patriots” wallowed in silence during the Clinton administration. Not to mention how they impeached our President in a time of war.
Try being legally obligated to lead the pledge every morning…there’s nothing like forced patriotism to start your day!
“The highest form of patriotism is quiet service, that perhaps even goes unrecognized , to forward the goals of your country.”
The bootlicker speaks.
Bosnia? Remember? The one where we didn’t lose any men? The one where we went in with a real coalition?
Factcheck wrote:
With whom were we at war when President Clinton was impeached?
I knew a lot of people in the ’60s who were against the Vietnam war — those would be the guys in my unit. Here’s my Honorable Discharge from the United States Army, dated 1972.
That ought to buy me the right to point out that the president, in addition to deserting his unit, is an incompetent, corrupt, moron, the worst president ever, and that the invasion of Iraq was the biggest strategic blunder in our history.
“By advertising each and every foible this country has that you believe will forward the agenda of your party, at the detriment of the country at large?”
Bollocks!
Man, I have had it.
Now the guy with the honorable discharge is just another guy with an opinion?
That’s fine, but I’d LOVE to be able to dip back into the archives, where there would no doubt be countless quotations and references to the contrary, from you nitwits on the right.
You guys have taken hypocrisy and nastiness to a new, unprecedented level in this particular thread. So much so, that at this point, I’m nearly at a loss for words.
Shutting me up is a pretty hard thing to do. Just ask Jay C. Reading the above from you shameless hypocrites, is rendering me speechless. My God.
JK
You sure don t know much about history if you think GW Bush is our worst President ever,
Who are his competitors? Grant? Harding? Nixon? Reagan? All morons, incompetents or crooks, but none of those guys made a strategic blunder like Iraq.
and you don t much about military history if you think that the invasion of Iraq was the biggest strategic blunder in our history.
I’m pretty well-read, actually. Enlighten me.
Vietnam is the only comparable blunder, but Bush, who claims a degree in history, had the advantage of the lesson of Vietnam, which took place while he was getting that degree, and he still repeated the blunder. George Santayana is laughing his ass off in his grave.
Of course, the Constitution already gives every citizen that right, so I’m not sure what your point is other than self-congratulations.
ahh yes. Bosnia….
“by now, over 200,000 Muslim civilians had been systematically murdered. More than 20,000 were missing and feared dead, while 2,000,000 had become refugees. It was, according to U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Richard Holbrooke, “the greatest failure of the West since the 1930s.”
Wonderful, you Bubba lovers must be so proud…..didn’t hurt a hair on an american head!
And Iraq has how many refugees? How many murdered civilians?
Shoot, Bush and every Neo-con ever born are pikers compared to the clinton gang.
once I get “moderated”
Here is the link to prevent the inevitable “its not true, you must made it up!”
http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/Genocide/bosnia_genocide.htm
“Real” coalition? Is that possible without UN support? By the way…how’s that exit strategy working out for our troops in Bosnia?
Pedro,
quit you bitching liar. Everyone gets moderated. now apologize for lying about us finding WMD.
I can’t honestly believe what’s being said here. The highest form of patriotism is just sitting back and taking it? What sense does that make? We should all lemming off the cliff?
Look at it this way: Your mother, giver of life, salt of the earth, most importnat creature on this planet, is shooting up heroin every night. Do you sit back and do nothing? Do you buy her the drugs when she asks you to? Do you pretend it isn’t happening? No! She’s killing herself, for Christ’s sake! You do everything in your power to help her and stop her. You talk to her, cajole her, phyiscally stop her, get help, get the neighbors, calll a doctor, whatever you need to do, but you sure as hell stop her from killing herself. It doesn’t mean you don’t love her, it doesn’t mean that you don’t respect her, it doesn’t mean that you think she’s evil. It means you think she needs help.
All I’m saying is why shouldn’t we treat our motherland the same way? Should we sit back and watch as it shoots up heroin? Or should we try and stop it? I’m not saying this country’s evil, wrong, a bad country, or any other straw man you can set up. It means I think it has a few problems that need to be adressed. Pedro, feel free to keep on whistling a happy tune. And when a Democrat is elected president in 2008, I hope the irony of your bitching and moaning won’t be lost on you. As for me, I’ll do what I always try to do. Love my country by helping it out.
>>Stop hiding behind your belief that the highest form of patriotism is dissent& it isn t.
I wonder what Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson would say about that.
I actually agree with the second part of your hate filled rant, except to say that I don’t believe that you practice, what you preach. Not for a moment. I’ll just patiently wait for you to slam a public school teacher, or a doctor, or government worker. You will, one day, and then I’ll shove your quote straight up your ass.
Very nasty stuff, Pedro. Nasty stuff, from a guy who freely uses the resources Oliver provides to spread your hate of all things liberal.
You’re a punk. Nothing more.
JK
I can tell you that the the idea that it was patriotic to dissent, or worse, the highest form of patriotism is to dissent wasn t even dreamed of until the late 60 s.
Here is a true blue Tory, folks. By his logic we would still be forced to go to the state church and bow to the British Crown.
geez JK you agreed with me at 9:23, but by 9:35 you were speechless?
Fact, wait for my bosnia quote to come out of “moderation”…..I can’t wait for you to chow down on the crow that is coming your way
“Respect of the world community…” remember that quote, and then remember what I posted was about an hour before “fact” posted this tripe….
Look, kids! That incandescent glow! That luminous trail! It’s an entire political movement burning itself out in impotent fury! We won’t see another conservative meteor shower like this for another 75 years, so enjoy it while it lasts!
Unfortunately, Oliver, some people need to be reminded that it’s your flag also, that they and their political allies don’t own it.
I don’t know JWG, how many of our troops are dying in Bosnia? BTW, Bosnia was a NATO operation. Back when we had the respect of the world community.
http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/101st_Airborne_Division/a_10110
You should question this guys patriotism….poor shmuck doesn’t drag a flag to work, he has to wear it! Almost as bad as the pledge of allegiance….he should complain about his constitutional rights eh Ollie and echo chamber?
By the way JK, I AM a doctor and I WAS a government worker…
BTW, “FACT”check, please compare the dates of Clinton’s impeachment to the dates of our bombing campaign in Bosnia.
I’ll give you a head start, since I know how much you like to check those facts: one was in 1995 and one was in 1998.
Ah matty, spoken like a true believer….someone who couldn’t define “service” if he had a dictionary in front of him.
BTW do you have a link to that quote….if so, please, get a life!
sundown, you are sundowning my man….!
I is an ameeerican…..
“The highest form of patriotism is quiet service, that perhaps even goes unrecognized , to forward the goals of your country.”
drpedro
For some reason, this sounds very familiar to me. Where have I heard this sentiment before? Hmmm…Oh, right! Now I remember:
“The way I see it, unless we each conform, unless we obey orders, unless we follow our leaders blindly, there is no possible way we can remain free.” — Major Frank Burns, M*A*S*H
Way to go, Pedro! Or should I call you “Ferret Face”?
Coulda fooled me, you seem to be a total devotee to the concept of monarchy.
So are you a Tory as well, drpedro?
Intellectually dishonest pedro,
how can you criticize lack of service. so you did. we salute you. none of your politicians did, though. now apologize for lying repeatedly.
bye pedro, till next time when you again ignore your responsibility to be intellectually honest.
Wow…do you really want to compare the coalition involved in the Bosnia campaign to the one in Iraq? Bring it on!
DrCommandoPedro,
Your paintball buddies are waiting. Go serve!
Guys like “Pedro” simply make me laugh, because they have no concept of what it is to be an American and truly love your nation. Sure, they know the bumper sticker values and can recite the slogans, but they simply have no clue. The best they can do is thrash about, call names, question someone’s American bonafides because they don’t walk in lock step to some asinine policy.
They don’t read about our nation’s history from numerous points of view, assesing the good and the bad and the vitality of the ideas at its core. They don’t visit our great national icons - Rushmore, the Lincoln, Jefferson, Roosevelt memorials and their related local points of history like the Freedom Trail in Boston and understand the ideas at play. Nope, they read the Dummies Guide To Being Merikun and think all they’ve got to do is get a t-shirt and a dime-store flag.
It’s their loss.
(and my office has a pretty nice view of a church and a playground)
Oliver, you are unbelievable!
Did you learn that all Republicans are racists in the shadow of the Lincoln Memorial?
Did you learn that equality trumps freedom in front of the Jefferson Memorial?
Maybe you learned that Viet Nam was a blunder in front of the Wall?
Perhaps that America was meant to be a welfare state at the FDR memorial — that might have been appropriate…
That’s the ticket! Dr P is full of crap! People who offered their lives for their country don’t anything about patriotism…
But, tourists… They know!
Lincoln was the last good Republican. And yes, the wall was a clear sign of the horrible idea that created and prolonged the Vietnam war and why people like me want it so that we don’t have to build another flipping wall.
And you tell those “tourists” who come to the Wall to rub their father/brother/grandfather’s names that they don’t know anything about history or patriotism.
Repack: I’m tired of the “moron mantra”…
When was the last time you got an MBA from Yale?
When was the last time you governed the largest state in the continental US?
Nobody is as dumb as a guy who thinks an intelligent person is a moron…
Let me add one frank…
Ollie when was the last time you strapped yourself into a supersonic fighter and hung your precious hide out on the line? Been upside down at 500 feet and 500 knots?
well, our president has…and saying he has not served over and over again won’t change it.
I said it before and I will say it again: I was forward deployed when 9/11 hit. Most of my family was wiped out in the Holocaust, and I am the first generation of americans. I PROUDLY wore the flag of this nation on my sleeve every day for more than a decade. I remain unaffected by a dilletante that hasn’t served this country, in ANY respect has to say about my patriotism or love of country.
I have walked the walk. You kids on the other hand believe that you serve this nations by light reading in your off hours, or perhaps a tourist excursion and a picnic with your lapdog and a good superman comic.
Like I have said before, thanks for all your opinions, now let the grownups get back to work….
Tell me about patriotism, which I grew up believing was the love of my country. Now, all it means to you is one big cynical “Gotcha.”
All you Shecky Greene wannabes: What’s your definition of patriotism? One great big “whine and moan party”?
It could happen that one day you’ll have to defend your country, whether you like it or not. How would you do it? What could you possibly say? What could you possibly say with any sincerity? Here in America, we break windows outside of WTO meetings. Here in America, we assult trying to break up unlawful demonstrations. We count the days of our current war. There’s a jerk out there posting the number of the dead in Iraq, because he can do it right next to an Armed Forces recruiting station.
I’ve been reading this blog for what, 5 years?
What was the last good thing you said about this country?
This country would be good, it could be good, should be good… If only Bush weren’t President, if he only he didn’t make the Supreme Court make him the President, after he forced Gore to contest the election.
If only Bush had stopped in Afghanistan, per your request, we know you wouldn’t have one complaint about how things were going there.
Been upside down at 500 feet and 500 knots?
I think you meant to say “Been upside down at 500 feet and 500 knots over the friendly skies of eastern Texas?”
When’s the last time pedro or George Bush skippered a flimsy patrol boat through jungles peppered with enemy snipers? Somehow I don’t remember such howls of indignation on the part of Pedro and Frank when right-wing snakes and skunks were denigrating the real honest-to-god combat service of John Kerry.
Bush is a hero for jockeying planes 10,000 miles away from the nearest VC, but a real Vietnam vet like Redpack Rider is “just another guy with an opinion.”
The wingnuts descend further into self-parody every day.
Oliver, you’re unbelievable… Trying to piggy - back on the people who have lost their family members in a war. Damn, you’ll say anything.
You think of those people as tourists?
You’re the tourist… There are people who got here yesterday who would die for this country before you could get the gumption to say something good about it.
Did any of you hear the news today about Mussaoui’s trial? The juror were stunned by video of people jumping out of the WTC Towers? Shall I tell you my guess as to why? Because the press, that supposedly supports the President according to you liberals, hasn’t thought to show those planes slamming into those buildings in years! When was the last time you saw it?
You don’t think the people would be outraged, do you?
I don’t know to tell if you’re a patriot, bit I can tell if you’re not.
Read this story, without wiping a tear from your eye. Read it without without wanting to do something about it. Read it without thinking that Jack Murha and his “bug out” cronies aren’t worms.
And I’ll tell you’re no patriot.
Those are my thoughts about patriotism.
Awful lot of rage there, Frank. Awful lot of rage.
Patriotism means a great many different things to a great many different people. To me patriotism is being proud of those things my country has done that I admire. And trying to change the things about my country that I’m ashamed of.
Things in this country that I admire that have been achieved largely through protest? Desegregation. Women’s right to vote. That’s two major ones that I can come up with off the top of my head.
And while I can’t come up with a situation where the draft would be reintroduced, if it were I’d go and fight. That’s the law, so I’d do it. Fairly basic part of the social contract.
And yes I wanted to do something about the attacks on the WTC. I’d still like to. Now tell me how Iraq counts as doing anything about it.
brashieel:Awful lot of rage there, Frank. Awful lot of rage.
Now, that’s insight. And I tried so hard to conceal it. The way I see it, I grew up in a country where Americans disagreed over the direction we were headed in, but they were honest, “You say pot - ah - to, I say pot -ayt - o” kinds of disagreements. Then, it seems that in the late 60’s, the liberals tried to “steal” the country, by “fixing” the debate.
People don’t believe you? Hit ‘em over the head every day in the press with liberal views. Change the debate from, “Which way are going to do it?” to “How quickly can we get what liberals want?”
Can’t get the Constitution amended, can’t get states to “go along”? Make an “end run” around all that “silly democracy” and take it to the Supreme Court, they’ll advance the liberal agenda for you.
Some gifts from the Supreme Court:
Homelessness is no longer vagrancy.
Panhandling is no longer a public nuisance.
You can smoke in school, but you can’t pray; you can pray on an airplane, but you can’t smoke.
And, my favorite: Say goodbye to more than 30 states’ laws banning abortion.
Initiative, referendum, Constitutional amendment?
We don’ nee’ no e - stinkin’ democracy!
When the conservatives fought back, and started winning elections, the liberals went wild:
“This is reactionary!”
“They’re trying to turn back the clock!”
“They’re taking us back to the Dark Ages!”
Yeah, of 1960
And. although women voting, and civil rights for blacks can be seen as improving America’s body politic, and bringing us closer to a republican (small “r”) ideal, it was the state and federal legislatures that fleshed out and polished the finished product.
You might say it made our country more lovable, but I’m not so sure either of those movements was motivated by patriotism.
As for “trying to change the things about my country that I m ashamed of,” what will you do when when you encounter resistance? Burn down a building? Assault a cop? Or run to the Supreme Court?
Or could you, might you, just say, “That s the law, so I d do it”.
That, too, is a “fairly basic part of the social contract.”
Now tell me how Iraq counts as doing anything about it.
That’s a whole other argument. For the purposes of this thread, I’ll say this: I’m glad we went, I’m glad we’re staying, and I’m sure we’ve got what it takes to make sure the Iraqis get what they want.
I’m sorry, but the whole idea of patriotism is a sham - nothing more then a tool by politicians used to whip people in to sentimental support and false hope.
A country is just a place of residence, nothing more, nothing less. How any reasonable, sane individual can salute or be proud of a piece of cloth is beyond me.
What the hell does the esquire story have to do with Murtha? That’s the fundamental difference here, you people have cornered yourselves into some form of cognitive dissonance which you can’t get out of: Sept. 11 = all arab/muslim people. It is a great piece, but I still support Murtha’s call for withdrawal. Deal with it.
And praying is not banned in schools or anywhere else. You knew that, though, but chose to lie.
“You might say it made our country more lovable, but I m not so sure either of those movements was motivated by patriotism.”
Frank, are you talking about the women’s suffrage and civil rights movements? What do you think motivated them?
Pedro and Frank…these guys are imploding. Let them.
The guy a few posts up is right. Patriotism means a lot of different thing to a lot of different people.
I’ve served my country during peacetime. Pedro might not know that, not that I really care. I don’t often boast about it, but I do mention it from time to time. I wasn’t a great “soldier,” I couldn’t shoot very well for starters….and I wasn’t crazy about the Guard unit I was in, but I was a damn good medic, and recieved commendation for being such. I would not trade that experience for anything. Gave me just the kick in the ass I needed.
Pedro, the Dr. with a lot of time on his hands, should know that Patriotism to some people might simply mean raising a child the right way, playing by the rules, paying your taxes, serving on the PTA and lending a helping hand to a neighbor, in need.
The point is, you don’t know Oliver well enough to define his brand of patriotism. Keep your mouth shut. It’s easy to be nasty in a blog, we all do it, but I felt you crossed the line.
Were you questioning my love of country, outside of this safehaven, you would not find yourself standing vertical for long.
JK
I don’t know about you, but when I was in school there was more then a few clubs devoted to Christianity and the Bible (not to mention various other religious discussion groups).
There is nothing preventing you from praying in school, as long as you don’t force any one else to participate or do it in a setting where others might feel uncomfortable.
Point the lesser: Could you point me to the SCOTUS decision which determined airline smoking policies? I must have missed that one.
Point the greater: As is often misquoted by Jesus-o-philes, there is no law or SCOTUS decision that outlaws individual prayer in schools. The only thing that is outlawed are group prayers organized and mandated by the school, which force all students to give obeisance to a particular view of God (singular), regardless of belief or lack thereof. I often hear this countered with “Well, the kids wouldn’t be FORCED to pray if they didn’t want to, kids with differing or no belief could opt out.” But why is it OK to force kids of differing belief to stand up in school and identify themselves in front of everyone else. How is this that much different than forcing Jews to wear a yellow star identifier? Except now instead of Jews it will be Hindus, Muslims, or atheists? You have the freedom to attend whatever church you want or none at all any time outside of school — why do we also have to attend church in school? As a devout agnostic I don’t want my kid to be forced to pretend to adhere to someone else’s religious view just to “fit in.”
Absolutely. What other medical procedures do the states have a right to tell me I can’t have? I am sure that the idea of a transgendered male having his scrotum removed totally squicks out the great majority of people, but just because they’re squicked doesn’t give those people the right to tell people desiring it that they are not allowed to do it.
So, people wanting to be able to exercise the most fundamental democratic franchise, the right to vote, is not motivated by patriotism? Wanting to have a voice in the policies that determine how your country works isn’t patriotic?
We fought a revolution 230 years ago because people were pissed off that they were paying taxes to support a government in which they had no say, no vote over the policies that affected their daily lives. Were the people who insitgated that revolution unpatriotic?
But apparently black citizens and female citizens, who paid taxes to the US government but were routinely denied the right to vote, should just suck it up??
I submit that you have no conception of what the Supreme Court is for, and your statement about “running to the Supreme Court” proves that.
What if a state passes a law supported by 99.9% of the population that Jews should not be allowed the right to vote, because they’re “international” and owe more support to Israel than the US. Should the small 0.1% Jewish population of that state suck it up and suffer for years, possibly generations, until they can persuade the majority of anti-Semitic bigots in that state that such a law is wrong?
Under your apparent conception of the court, I guess so, because appealing the constitutionality of such a law is just an “end run” around the “legitimate” state legislature.
You obviously fail to grasp that a significant component of the Constitution and the role of the court is to protect the minority against the TYRRANY OF THE MAJORITY. Just because racists or homophobes or fundamentalists can muster over 50% of a state’s population for something does not mean that that something is sound law which should be followed.
And incidentally, as to your trope about “When have you ever said something good about America?”, I’ll say that this precept is one of the things about America I am most proud of. It took an incredible foresight by the Constitutional framers to realize that such a thing as “tyranny of the majority” could exist even in a democracy in which everyone could vote (and again, for a long time the blacks and women couldn’t even do that!)
Rheinhard: Since you’ve got everything about my thought processes all figured out, I’ll let you finish __________________________________________________________
__________________________________________________________
__________________________________________________________
____________________________________________
Saves me a lot of typing…
Todd B. That’s easy to say, when you live in the greatest country on Earth. Pretty much like saying, when you a Rolls or a Jaguar, “Cars! Who cares? Anyone will do.” I truly pity you. Here’s a story for you.
JSA, that’s easy: Enlightened self - interest. What they wanted was only right and just, in their eyes, and did what they had to do to get. As I said above, the finished product was polished and refined, not in the street, not in the Supreme Court, but in State and Federal Legislative bodies, where it rightfully should have been, and I might add, until then it didn’t have the :stamp of legality.” (I made that up — the ’stamp’ business, I mean.)
mjb: That’s your equation, not mine. But, as I recall, there were no Andorrans or Fijians mixed in with the hijackers.
I have to answer one thing, Rheinhard, if only to make you stop and think: Q.Were the people who insitgated that revolution unpatriotic?
A. Absotively. They sure hated their country — England*
* People were pissed off that they were paying taxes to support a government in which they had no say. Just like conservatives in 1965.
“People were pissed off that they were paying taxes to support a government in which they had no say. Just like conservatives in 1965.”
Did being pissed off make them unpatriotic? Do liberals have the same right to be pissed off today? Would they then be unpatriotic?
Jk you see you have the liberal problem. words have meaning, you don’t get to assign meanings to them….were that the case, well, we have no common language and essentially anarchy.
Here is what patriotism actually means: “Love of and devotion to one’s country.”
It doesn’t have anything to do with child-rearing, tax paying or anything else.
Since you have served, perhaps you can then understand why I am urked by this guy who hasn’t served his country in any way,shape or form, yet gets upset by people bringing flags to work.
My love of country is questioned here 10 times a day. I ignore it because it comes from people who don’t know any better. I consider myself a true patriot, and would never feel the need to resort to physical violence because it was questioned…but thats just me.
Actually, no. But you knew that.
See equivalence, moral, feigned.
“My love of country is questioned here 10 times a day. I ignore it because it comes from people who don t know any better.”
Pedro,
No one here has any doubt that you have a love for “America”. We just have a different definition of America. To me it’s the principles on which it was ostensibly founded, but have never been honored. To me it is American to strive for these principles. Some, you, view it as a team, and the fact that you happen to be here at the moment, or were lucky enough to have been born here, means that you must defend your team at all costs, even when your leaders are undermining those principles which real Americans strive to uphold.
I had a talk with a cop today (I work in law enforcement) who said that he would have personally arrested Volpe and his cohorts if he was working the night he brutalized Abner Louima. That is a real cop. The fake cops are the ones who covered for him and lied and watched while an innocent human being was almost killed.
The Republicans are shoving a broken broomstick up the ass of America and you feel that it’s more important to maintain that red, white and blue wall of silence.
“mjb: That s your equation, not mine. But, as I recall, there were no Andorrans or Fijians mixed in with the hijackers.”
No, it’s your equation, as the sentence immediately following your dumb defense proves.
Well, Pedro…you try “child rearing” in Iraq, and let me know if you find it to your liking, OK?
You don’t think out of the box, very often, do you? Yet another sign of a true conservative.
This country provides us with opportunties to raise children in an environment “free” from government sponsored religion, free to speak against their government without fear of reprisal, etc, etc., etc.
You just don’t have a clue.
JK
Shorter Frank:
IOKIYAR
I’m back! I asked them if I could have a copy of the inscriptions — there weren’t any. They had all been scooped up by a bunch of demonstrators from ANSWER and MoveOn — seems they were demonstrating at night and needed kindling.
I forgot my handy - dandy Polaroid — you know, the camera preferred by 4 ot of 5 rich Republicans.
So I had to go to the Internet
http://www.nps.gov/thje/memorial/inscript.htm
Please show me the part where it says “that it was patriotic to dissent, or that the highest form of patriotism is to dissent”
I couldn’t find it. But then again, I forgot my glasses.
Shorter Rheinhard: IROTFLMAO
I’m heading down to D.C. — Im taking the Tradition - mobile!
I can tell you that the the idea that it was patriotic to dissent, or worse, the highest form of patriotism is to dissent wasn t even dreamed of until the late 60 s.
Check out the inscription inside the rotunda of the Jefferson Memorial sometime, if you think that’s true.
I wonder how many people it takes to turn an idea from being “treason” into an acceptable opinion. Non-support for a war is dissent, some would say treason, but what is it when half or more people think it?
Maybe opposing a war is not treason. Maybe trying to stop yhe war by illegal means, is.
Is there a difference between a defense attorney fighting like crazy to keep his client from being convicted, and one who helps his client escape from jail?
JK
I don’t know what Iraqi child rearing has to do with anything, so I am going to have to ignore that non-sequitor.
The term “thinking outside of the box” doesn’t mean a complete relativism regarding the definition of words….communication is impossible if we don’t all work from the same definition. Perhaps that is the problem I have communicating with leftists…
MJB
supporting your country doesn’t mean turning a blind eye when there is clearly something wrong. It does mean you don’t bad mouth it at every turn, you don’t always assume the worst motives to your leaders, and it really doesn’t mean tearing down the elected leaders of your country in order to try to put your own power structure in place….
“Because the press, that supposedly supports the President according to you liberals, hasn t thought to show those planes slamming into those buildings in years! When was the last time you saw it?” — Frank
“Hows that? By wallowing in it s war dead?” — drpedro
“Maybe opposing a war is not treason. Maybe trying to stop the war by illegal means, is.” — Frank
“Jk you see you have the liberal problem. words have meaning, you don t get to assign meanings to them& ” drpedro
“Sorry, repack, it does no such thing. You re just another guy with an opinion.” — Frank
“Ollie when was the last time you strapped yourself into a supersonic fighter and hung your precious hide out on the line? Been upside down at 500 feet and 500 knots? well, our president has& and saying he has not served over and over again won t change it.” — drpedro
OW, you should sell tickets to this place. Call it “When Wingnuts Collide.”
“does mean you don t bad mouth it at every turn, you don t always assume the worst motives to your leaders”
Pedro,
You seem to be admitting to being a “team” player. I feel that when bad people do bad things in the name of our country we have a duty to bad mouth them. And who cares about motives? I think everyone here will admit that the Republicans are probably deluded enough to believe their own shit, like you. And like you, they feel it’s ok to lie to achieve their goals because they’ve got some “feeling” about what the right thing to do is.
buma: All those quotes were just crazy, weren’t they?
By the way, isn’t this a wingnut?
mjb when people do bad things you should prosecute the people, not the country.
You leftists jumped on Abu Ghraib as evidence that “america” tortures people, rather that what it was….some american soldiers mistreated prisoners, and were convicted of such.
Rather than seeing the truth for what it is, you attempt to twist every possible issue into an “america is bad, and it’s all the republicans fault”, which is tantamount to tearing down your own country, all for the sake of propping up your political parties unpopular opinions.
Being a team player ain’t a bad thing, and it also doesn’t mean you have to ignore the things that need changing, but can do it without tearing down the whole team…
I meant “now apologize for lying”.
You see MJB you have a fundamental problem with understanding the world that leads to your BDS and hatred of america.
Countries CAN torture people. If there are no laws against it, if it is condoned and in fact order by its leaders. Nazi Germany, and Iraq under Hussein are examples.
Words have meaning, laws have meaning.
Until the leftists can see the difference between America, a place that criminalizes mistreatement, and a pre-Saddam Iraq, you will all be “America Laster’s”. It is obvious from your and your leftist fellow travelers rhetoric.
Res Ispsa Loquitor
pedro,
I agree we should not prosecute the country, no one here is saying we do that. I only see criticism of the actions of people. But you know that. You know it is impossible for a country to torture people. You know that when we say “America” tortures, we mean that individuals torture and individuals authorize the torture, and individuals support the torture. No one claims “America” is bad (it is impossible to do so), we claim that people who represent America are doing bad things.
You are welcome to continue believing that attacking republicans equals attacking “America”, but no serious person supports that premise.
I have no problem tearing down the whole team if the whole team is bad. But the whole team is not bad, and we don’t advocate criticising innocent people. But addressing that would not allow you to remain on message.
Our disagreement is not about ignoring the things that need changing, it is about what needs changing. Your side supports, for example, torture. We don’t. Don’t equate that disagreement with “tearing down the whole team”.
No apologize for lying about us finding WMD.
Frank wrote:
The juror were stunned by video of people jumping out of the WTC Towers? Shall I tell you my guess as to why? Because the press, that supposedly supports the President according to you liberals, hasn t thought to show those planes slamming into those buildings in years! When was the last time you saw it?
Take a step back.
The jurors were stunned by the video because the video is stunning. Show it once every few years or show it daily, it’s stunning either way.
But I understand about that. I see the attacks every day. You see, I actually live in New York City. I was on the 59th Street bridge when the attacks happened. I don’t need the media to show me the fireballs, I saw them myself.
And frankly, I’ve got no time for some guy in New Rochelle to presume to lecture about 9/11. If you want to talk about being here and living through it, speak up. If you want to talk about the friends and neighbors you lost, speak up. If you want to talk about thanking the Gods because you have a relative who is alive today only because he was sick as a dog that day, speak up. If you want to talk about waiting at a hospital ER for the wounded who couldn’t fit into St. Vincent’s and realizing that their failure to appear could only mean that they weren’t that many people who were merely wounded, speak up.
But if all you’ve got to say about it is what you saw on TV, shut the f*ck up.
As to your article, as I’ve said I don’t need it to want to do something. But I’ve got this thing about doing something effective. Between Murtha and you, Murtha’s not the worm — being in Iraq isn’t doing jack shit about 9/11. Never has, never will.
Is there a difference between a defense attorney fighting like crazy to keep his client from being convicted, and one who helps his client escape from jail?
Yes there is a difference - just like there is a difference between lying and telling the truth:
“If there’s a leak out of my administration, I want to know who it is” - GWB, 2/11/2004
Until the leftists can see the difference between America, a place that criminalizes mistreatement, and a pre-Saddam Iraq, you will all be America Laster s . It is obvious from your and your leftist fellow travelers rhetoric.
Disagreement with GWB and the Republican Congress and then expressing one s beliefs and concern is called dissent. Get over it already.
MJB said this: I agree we should not prosecute the country, no one here is saying we do that
Pedro said this: you have a fundamental problem with understanding the world that leads to your BDS and hatred of america.
Where does the communication problem lie?
I’m appalled by this thread. Finger pointing, name calling, yadda, yadda.
We are all Americans here. We all love the country. We all can agree that the people of this country does not equate the country as a whole (can’t we?). we show that love of country in a variety of different ways. It is neither treasonous (sp?) nor patriotic. It is how we show our love of country.
Someof us are saying that we disagree with the Republicans. The Republican party happens to hold all the cards at the moment. That is not the same thing as saying we disagree with America.
Now, all of you just calm down.
Frank, I was reffering to the Declaration of Independence where jefferson advocates the overthrow of tyranny. I was mistaken about the inscription. Sorry about that. My point was that dissention is not a new idea, as you postulated.
bw: One thing so clearly has nothing to do with the other, that I’m not sure what you’re driving at…
I thought we had turned the subject of the thread to whether or not Bush is a liar — a turn in which I have not I have not participated.
Why? Because all politicians lie. As the great philosopher of the “boogie woogie” school of philosophy, John Lee Hooker said, “it’s in ‘em, and it’s got to come out…”
duros: You have obviously joined the ranks of those posters on this blog, who like to say, {Even though you actually said “A”, I’m going to say} I disagree with your statement that “B” is true. [Choose one] Prove that “B” is true, or prove that I am wrong.
You claim you are new to this. If that is so, then you have adopted a “tried and true” tactic, used with astonishing regularity around here.
Let’s look again at what I said, eh?
In no case did I say that dissent was new. For a look at how the newborn United States handled rebellion, may I suggest you investigate Shays’ Rebellion?
Contrast Shays’ behavior with that of Lucy Stone.
Hey, Dan, I’m not getting into a “comparison of credentials” with you over 9/11.
But I am absotively damn sure of one thing, if you got hit dead in the chest with a 747 on 9/11, it still doesn’t give you the right to tell me to “shut the fuck up”
Whatever your problem is, I have no plans to help you solve it.
And, for the record, potty mouth, I wasn’t lecturing anyone about 9/11, least of all you.
I’ve never even seen your name on this blog.
“Countries CAN torture people. If there are no laws against it, if it is condoned and in fact order by its leaders. Nazi Germany, and Iraq under Hussein are examples. Words have meaning, laws have meaning. ”
Pedro,
All meaningless sophistry to avoid the point. People make or don’t make laws or break them. We’re talking about people. You think it’s ok to torture if it supports your team, I support striving for the principles upon which the country was founded, including when it means making a tough decision to oppose your own leaders, who after all, are the only leaders we can oppose because we live here.
And you snide dick, it’s res ipsa loquitur. On top of that, it’s practically meaningless, just another degree of proof needed. Evidence, not rhetoric.
Frank, I don’t even know what you’re talking about.