A battle for all time
Adult film star Jenna Jameson on Monday drew a lively crowd of more than 200 people to Scottsdale City Hall, where City Council members picked through a laundry list of options to tighten up their sexually oriented businesses ordinance.
The meeting went late into the night with no decision as of press time.
The owners Scottsdale’s two strip club said the new rules are oppressive and will make it nearly impossible for them to continue running businesses that have been part of the city’s hospitality scene for decades.
“What you have in your hands tonight is a ‘Put us out of business card,’” said First Amendment attorney Dick Hertzberg, who represents Jameson. “Why don’t you give her a chance. Let her run her business for a few months and see how it goes. What’s wrong with fairness?”
Also appearing at the podium was Scott Bergthold, the attorney that Jameson dubbed “a hired gun for the Christian right,” who helped Scottsdale draft its new law.
So Scottsdale, AZ’s strip club industry was humming along until Jenna Jameson bought herself a club - then the Christian right with their big money lawyers decides that they’ve got to stop her from doing business. Great.
Dirty dirty boobies. DIRTY BOOBIES! WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN!?
Excuse me, but what evidence do you have that the Scottsdale Arizona Mayor and City Council members are all Christian conservatives? They wanted to change the ordinance, and they hired the best attorney to do it.
Perhaps if you’d do a little more research into stories like this, instead of just issuing a typical knee-jerk reaction, you might be a little more credible. To whit:
Scottsdale officials had planned to revise the ordinance anyway to bring it up to date with recent court rulings, but decided to give it a closer look as a result of community outcry over Babe’s.
So it was people who actually live in the community that got the ball rolling on this one and not the ‘Christian right’ sniffing around and sending in one of their own. The horror of the people influencing their elected officials.
Bergthold is a Christian right lackey who’s whole reason for being is to attack strip clubs. But then that would be expecting a little reading comprehension from the right — but I don’t believe in those kinds of miracles.
Duh. No shit Quaker. I said as much in my first comment. If your goal is legal in nature, you hire the best there is. It’s obvious that this action was initiated by the community. The city council, reacting to that, hired who they thought would be the best person to help draft their revisions and that apparently was Bergthold.
Bergthold is a Christian right lackey who s whole reason for being is to attack strip clubs.
He’s a servant of the Christian right, yet he was hired by the Scottsdale City Council. So I again ask: What evidence do you have that the Scottsdale Arizona Mayor and City Council members are all Christian conservatives (or members of the Christian right)?
It’s a simple question Oliver. I’m contending this whole thing was precipitated by the people who live in the community. As such, the City Council chose to adopt new ordinances regulating adult oriented businesses. They brought in a lawyer who has been successful in writing up such ordinances that have withstood constitutional scrutiny.
Yet your contention is that this is some scheme hatched by the Christian right and they sent in their do-boy to get it done. Prove it. I don’t give a shit if Bergthold has done this elsewhere. That’s irrelevant as he was hired by those cities as well.
If your goal is making law to satisfy all of the interests in the community, you don’t have to hire anybody at all. That’s what cities pay their councils to do.
If your goal is to advance a religiously based, conservative political agenda, you go outside and hire a gunslinger from the Alliance Defense Fund.
Keep reading, Jay:
You’re excused.
Let’s cut to the chase. Going after Jenna Jameson is just not right.
If your goal is making law to satisfy all of the interests in the community, you don t have to hire anybody at all. That s what cities pay their councils to do.
It’s obvious you know nothing about how a city council works and what they must do in order to create these ordinances which are legal in nature. If you’re going to draft and pass something like this, you need good legal advice, especially if not a single member of the council nor the Mayor are lawyers.
If your goal is to advance a religiously based, conservative political agenda, you go outside and hire a gunslinger from the Alliance Defense Fund.
And your evidence of this is what?
Again, do some research. It took me about 5 minutes to find out that residents who live on that side of town are pissed off because the city has been promising to ‘revitalize’ that area of town for years. A strip club, didn’t fit that equation and thus, they expressed their anger. In case you don’t know, areas of town with adult stores and strip clubs, usually aren’t the nicest places around. Yet, real people live around there. And if the city has been promising to clean up the area and you then find out that some place was sold to the biggest porn star on earth to create yet another strip club, you might get mad and want the council to do something about it.
Yet, you’re convinced it’s nothing more than somebody wanting to advance a religiously based conservative agenda.
Lots of towns routinely hire outside counsel for a multitude of services, including zoning counsel. While the hiring of a “Christian right” attorney to provide such counsel does seem to have pinned back the ears of the “all evil conservatives are part of the Christian right” crowd, the simple fact is that towns both liberal and conservative routinely try to regulate strip clubs and the like. I’m sure none of the liberals here want a strip club in their neighborhood any more than conservatives do. If not for Jenna Jameson’s involvement in this case, we wouldn’t be discussing it.
Funny, I thought our elected officials were hired to make the tough decisions, not pass crowd-pleasing pablum.
Farris, we’re talking about commercial zoning here. How much “crowd-pleasing pablum” could there be?
Farris:
Anyway, I think that’s supposed to be my line.
Jay:
I’m sure the city of Scottsdale has a few lawyers on the payroll. If they don’t, they should look into it. If they had a few of their own, they wouldn’t have to hire outside to do the kind of simple zoning work that most city attorneys handle in their sleep.
Uh. This case?
Or are you asking for evidence that the Alliance Defense Fund is a Christian right organization?
Let’s just check and see who the founders of ADF are, shall we?
Hm. I see what you mean, Jay. A little research can be rewarding.
One of us is confused here. Was it an existing business that was sold to a new owner? Or is Ms. Jameson “creating yet another” strip club? (According to the article, there are exactly two in Scottsdale.)
Research? Yas, yas.
Quaker, you’re getting good at the dodge and weave. You say a bunch of shit, but you don’t really say anything.
I m sure the city of Scottsdale has a few lawyers on the payroll. If they don t, they should look into it. If they had a few of their own, they wouldn t have to hire outside to do the kind of simple zoning work that most city attorneys handle in their sleep.
It’s not ’simple zoning work’ as these kinds of cases are popping up all over the place. Tampa has tried to deal with the kind of garbage strip clubs attract in the neighboring area. Some of these businesses have filed lawsuits and have won because the language in the zoning laws was too broad and didn’t address things specifically. Thus, the need for a lawyer with expertise in a particular area and not just some average lawyer who knows how to file the necessary paperwork.
Then you move into total contradiction:
Uh. This case?
Uh. I already provided evidence that shows this case was precipitated by RESIDENTS fed up with sleaze that these kinds of businesses attract after being promised by city leaders that they’d clean up that area of town. People don’t want to live near strip clubs. For whatever reason, that leads you to conclude this is a case that is about Christians pushing their political agenda.
Are you going to continue to ignore the facts?
As for Bergthold, I could care less if he’s a member of the Alliance Defense Fund. I don’t care if he represented Jesus Christ himself. The man is a legal expert in the arena of city ordinances that put a check on adult oriented businesses. The city hired him. The fact that he is a member of the ADF does not prove your contention that this is about somebody trying to “advance a religiously based, conservative political agenda.” Again, I’ve already provided evidence that this was sparked by angry residents, tired of strip clubs in the area. Saying, “He belongs to this group” does not prove your point.
As for the lawyers, I’ll tell you what. If you’re every accused of a crime, I have a lawyer friend you can call. His area is corporate law. But to you, a lawyer is a lawyer, so there would be no need for you to hire a criminal defense attorney, right?
Holy cats, Jay. The Scottsdale city attorney’s office is overstuffed with lawyers who are paid to handle city business.
But instead of relying on any of them, the council hires outside, picking a guy from the baddest pro-Christian advocacy firm in the business.
But there’s no reason to make anything of that, right? The fact that this guy makes his reputation and his living doing battle against sexually oriented businesses, working on behalf of the Wildmons and the Dobsons of the world, that just doesn’t mean anything at all?
Y’know, maybe you’re on to something. Maybe when he’s working for the city, he sets aside his ADF, Christian-based agenda and takes the job strictly on an economic basis. Could be, but I doubt it.
Evidence? You Googled up an article that quoted one unnamed guy:
The article Oliver cited said there are plenty of people on the other side of the issue as well–including the Scottsdale Chamber of Commerce. If the city council is acting in response to the wishes of city residents, it’s doing so rather selectively.
This story isn’t about an expansion of business or the creation of new sexually-oriented businesses. It’s about trying to shut down the ones that have been in existance for many years. Why do you think they’re trying to do that, Jay?
Is it because seeing the bottom half of a woman’s breast gives you AIDS? That a woman dancing with her fanny out leads to rape? If you read the proposed ordinance, that’s what they’re arguing.
One neighbor says a strip club isn’t their idea of `revitalization.’
Last line is part of the boxed quote above.
But instead of relying on any of them, the council hires outside, picking a guy from the baddest pro-Christian advocacy firm in the business.
But there s no reason to make anything of that, right? The fact that this guy makes his reputation and his living doing battle against sexually oriented businesses, working on behalf of the Wildmons and the Dobsons of the world, that just doesn t mean anything at all?
Quaker, name a city lawyer in Scottsdale who has proposed restrictive rules against adult oriented businesses and has written briefs that were argued before the Supreme Court. Name one.
How many fucking times do you need to be told that their are lawyers that SPECIALIZE in certain areas?
Y know, maybe you re on to something. Maybe when he s working for the city, he sets aside his ADF, Christian-based agenda and takes the job strictly on an economic basis. Could be, but I doubt it.
WTF are you talking about? The man’s law firm exists for exactly the kind of purpose he was hired for! Jeebus man, open your friggin eyes! Read:
Well shit! I can’t imagine why anybody would want to hire him. Oh yes! It’s because he’s doing the will of JAMES DOBSON!!! He’s been sent on a mission to snuff out porno businesses all over the country!! He’s a tool for the RADICAL CHRISTIAN RIGHT!!
Evidence? You Googled up an article that quoted one unnamed guy:
Just one. Here’s another. And another. Oh and another..
The article Oliver cited said there are plenty of people on the other side of the issue as well including the Scottsdale Chamber of Commerce. If the city council is acting in response to the wishes of city residents, it s doing so rather selectively.
What “plenty of people?” Those who want to get their rocks off at a strip club? My heart bleeds for them. And the Chamber of Commerce is interested in the interests of business. Nothing more. And I’ll tell you what, the interest of a resident who leaves near one of these places matters a whole hell of a lot more than some guy who comes from across town to throw dollar bills around.
Is it because seeing the bottom half of a woman s breast gives you AIDS? That a woman dancing with her fanny out leads to rape?
You know, it’s bad enough that you have failed to prove that this is some case about the Christian Right and rather a case about citizens not wanting certain businesses in their area, but if you’re going to keep going, do it honestly.
The mention of AIDS and sexual assault was said in the context that the secondary effects of such businesses can possibly lead to situations in which the city has an obligation to prevent. The ordinance does not say, “Looking at the bottom half of a woman’s breast is going to give you AIDS” so don’t be stupid on purpose. These secondary effects do exist.
You wait until somebody wants to open a strip club near your house. Let’s see how you react.
“You wait until somebody wants to open a strip club near your house. Let s see how you react.”
But that isn’t what’s happening here, Jay. Jenna Jamison is not opening a strip club were none existed before. She took over the ownership of a strip club that was previously operating. It was only when Jameson herself took over did the existence of the strip club become a big issue. One of the upset residents said this:
“That’s not what we thought of when they said ‘revitalization,’ ” said Lisa Haskell, a neighborhood activist who lives near Babe’s. “I’m just not sure what their vision is. Babe’s was fine, but do we really want a new-and-improved one in a revitalization area?”
Babe’s was fine? Ya, that sounds like a woman up in arms to take back her neighborhood from the strip clubs. Speaking about other revitalization efforts designed to raise property values beyond the reach of the local strip clubs and adult bookstores, the area the city manager said this:
“The market will deal with that,” said Ed Gawf, the deputy city manager. “It just takes time. But most of us are ready for it to happen tomorrow.”
So the city was taking a market-based approach to the situation until Jameson moved into town. The city’s response was most likely based on the perception that Jameson’s management might actually improve the property value of Babe’s and disrupt the plan to weed it out naturally.
The city then decided that the best thing to do was write a draconian law that would shutdown all the strip clubs in the city and bring in an outside council to enforce it. Essentially, the city is making illegal otherwise perfectly legal private businesses. If this was an eminent domain case I wonder what Sean Hannity would do? Jameson has a point when she says this:
“In embracing the Bergthold crusade, Mayor Manross has seized on my fame as an entertainer and author to launch a politically motivated campaign against strip clubs,” Jameson said in a statement released Thursday. “We intend to fight this form of censorship to protect our First Amendment rights.”
Why is it politically motivated? Well, Jameson’s name gets Manross in the news which politicians like but is she doing it because she’s part of the Christian Right? I don’t know. It seems perfectly reasonable that if you want to pass legislation that might violate the First Amendment — and that this doesn’t bother you — you should find a lawyer who specializes in crafting such draconian measures. But let’s be real. Scottsdale has two strip clubs and an adult bookstore in a city of 202705 people. That doesn’t sound too out of control to me. Nor does it sound like the residents quoted in one of the articles are beating the war drums here:
“I really think we need something better for this area of town,” said Jane Schroeder, a 40-year resident of the area. “I can’t see (Babe’s) ever being good for the city in any way.”
That’s easily the mildest righteous outrage I’ve ever seen.
It’s zoning law, Jay. Not rocket science. The city had already prepared to amend its existing ordinance to comply with recent court rulings. They didn’t need someone who specializ…er, SPECIALIZES, to help them with that, did they?
No, they hired Bergthold to try to run existing businesses out of town. Why are they doing that, Jay? The council seems eager to ally with “neighborhood activists” rather than look for less dramatic changes that would allow long-standing businesses to continue to operate.
You convinced me. Long ago. I admit that Mr. Bergthold specializ…er, SPECI…oh, heck, once is enough…specializes. He specializes in pressing a radical agenda for some of the nation’s leading religious right radicals. You seem to think he tosses that hat off when the city of Scottsdale rings him up. Then he can be just Joe Lawyer…no master agenda here, nosireee.
Oh, I forgot. Those people don’t get a say in what their city council does. Only good, decent, conser…er, god-fear…uh, non-strip-club-going citizens count.
To borrow a bon mot: Duh! Most city councils are pretty interested in the interests of business too. For somebody who likes to tell others how little they understand about how city governments work, I expect you probably know that.
No, but the ordinance does say that one of the secondary effects is the spread of disease, and it mentions AIDS specifically. What restrictions does the ordinance propose to mitigate these secondary effects, Jay? I’ll tell you: no looking at the bottom half of a boobie, that’s what.
Still confused about this, Jay? Existing business…not opening…existing. You wait until I move in next to an existing strip club and start whining about it. Let’s see how you react.
“When they attempted to open a strip club in the center of my city …”
No one is opening a new stripclub in Scottsdale.
When they attempted to open a strip club in the center of my city, the council jumped right into action. I can assure you, if they are Christian conservatives, they are hiding it well. The crime potential around those places goes way up real fast: prostitution, underage drinking, drugs, then drunken street brawls. Our council lost in the State supreme court almost immediately.
Their solution? A G-string and pastie law. End of story. They’re open, I think, but I haven’t heard of any crime over there.
I give them 6 months to a year, and they’ll be gone.
Frame, you’re right. They are not opening another strip club. However, ownership is a big deal. If Joe Schmoe owns a deli in my town, most people aren’t going to give it much thought. If ownership of that deli was turned over to say, Brad Pitt, chances are, it would attact a hell of a lot of more attention.
It’s not hard to imagine that residents might think that one of the most famous porn stars around taking over ownership of an existing business will attract more of the same kind of business. And it is a legitimate concern of residents who live in that area to say, “Enough is enough.” And yes Quaker, the views of the people who live in the area take precedent over the views of those people who live on the other side of town.
As for Bergthold, like I said, the city went to him. If the city council and the Mayor were hellbent on getting rid of strip clubs, they could have hired him two years ago and drafted the same ordinance at that time. Again, I see this as nothing more than a reaction to local residents who were promised by the city that they’d clean up that area.
I used to live in New Jersey. There was a famous sports bar in Woodbridge called Billy’s. It was located on Route 9 and within spitting distance of residential homes. The parking lot was not that big, and as such, patrons would park along the streets in the neighborhood in order to go inside. Needless to say, all sorts of problems resulted from that. Public urination, fights, drunk driving, etc. The residents in that area got really angry and the city council passed an ordinance that said once their parking lot was full, they had to turn customers away. Area residents were given decals for their cars and any car without one parked in the area at the time Billy’s was open would be towed.
Of course, Billy’s owner went nuts. He railed about how those restrictive rules would shut down his business, and how it wasn’t his fault that people did these things once they left his place and blah blah blah. But, he had to deal with it. He wound up making an arrangement with a men’s clothing store that was next door to use their parking lot.
The point is, people sometimes get fed up. Yet because of one lawyer, who again was hired by the city, happens to specialize in this kind of law (contrary to Quaker’s continuing absurd notion that it’s just “simple” zoning laws) and belongs to a Christian based legal organization, people make the leap that this is about some Christian right political agenda.
Actually, the place was called ‘Poor Billy’s’. The founder/owner died a couple of years ago.