It’s 2002 all over again. The Democrats ignored their base, who was against war with Iraq, and the American people - who did not want to unilaterally go to war unless it was of the utmost necessity. They conceded the most important issue of the last thirty years to the Republican party and proceeded to get whipped electorally, be complicit in the deaths of over 2,000 Americans, and gave Bush the authority to ignore the global war against terrorism.
Now, just as some Democrats are getting a clue about the mistake of Iraq, you have some folks who have been so beaten by the right that they listen to the Limbaughs, Hannitys, and O’Reillys of the world — instead of the people who sent them to Washington — and are actively fighting against a sensible strategy to get the hell out of Iraq as soon as possible.
The most insane part is that getting out of Iraq isn’t just morally superior, it’s politically smart!
SHOULD U.S. SET TIMETABLE FOR TROOP WITHDRAWAL?
Yes: 58%
No: 39%VIOLENCE IN IRAQ IF TROOPS WITHDRAWN
More: 46%
Less: 12%
Same: 38%TERRORISM AGAINST U.S. IF TROOPS WITHDRAWN
Increase: 40%
Decrease: 8%
No Change: 49%U.S. TROOP LEVELS IN IRAQ SHOULD BE&
Increased: 11%
Kept the same: 24%
Decreased: 32%
Remove all troops: 28%
And the idiotic “Victory Plan” that is neither a plan nor victory?
HAS THE BUSH ADMIN. EXPLAINED U.S. GOALS IN IRAQ?
Yes: 25%
No: 68%
The only increase in support for the war in the poll was among Republicans, who have shown an amazing ability to be completely wrong on a regular basis. This is what this boils down to now Democrats: it is not even politically risky to advocate a sensible end to our occupation of Iraq. It’s morally responsible and a political plus.
What the hell else do you guys want?
Did you post this comment on the wrong thread by mistake?
I don’t see anything at all in OW’s post that says he expects the Right to do anything at all.
I think ian sums up Republican concern for minorities quite well.
Thank you, ian.
You see this is why people don’t like the left .. you think that we [the right], who has control of the White House, House, and Senate have some type of duty to please you.
I honestly don’t know why you would want to be a Democrat anymore, Oliver. The Democratic leadership are a clueless as Republicans, but without the backbone. It would be great if the moderates from both sides could join together and form a new third party, but Democrats and Republicans are so married to the status quo, they’ll sink any attempt.
cellulose name me one thing that Democrats have done for Jews (as I am one and we make up 2% of America). Those constantHitler and Nazi comparisons sure aren’t friendly.
Quaker — Oliver is complaining that Bush isn’t paying attention to the liberal view.
Ian,
What power does the Christian Right hold on the Democratic Party? If you’re a Jew and you don’t see the evangelists behind the Republican Pary then you are blind. Why do you think 75% of Jews vote Democratic? Because we Jews still believe in separation of church and state. The Republican base no longer does.
Since everybody wants to live in the past (Vietnam!! Watergate!!) it should be noted that prior to the 1972 election, only 28% of the public still supported the war in Vietnam.
I’m not sure I need to remind anybody exactly what happened that November. But you guys continue to delude yourselves into thinking people like Dean, Pelosi, Reid and Kennedy are going to sweep you back into power.
Besides, I fail to see how “getting out of Iraq” is “politically smart” when only 28% of all Americans want all the troops removed. In addition, 40% think terrorism will increase if they are taken out, and 46% think there will be more violence if troops are taken out.
So what exactly is politically smart about calling for a full withdrawal (and don’t give me this politician shit about “strategic redeployment” ok? That’s code for “cut and run”)?
Actually, what’s going to kill the Republican majority is the failed Social Security plan. Republicans may want to shove it down the memory hole but Democrats won’t let them. Also, that corruption thing won’t help the GOP.
This a Congressional election. National security issues will be only marginal in the races. Unless there is a military base in the district, or the candidate supports a truly outlandish position, Iraq will be less an issue in the midterms than both sides think. Iraq is hugely important in Bush’s approval numbers. But on Congress, it’s much less important than domestic matters.
“But you guys continue to delude yourselves into thinking people like Dean, Pelosi, Reid and Kennedy are going to sweep you back into power. ”
No, we think the never-ending Republican corruption scandals and Buh incompetence are going to sweep us back into power. What we need is effective leadership who will take advantage of the situation and actually lead. Otherwise it will be “well, they are all just as bad as each other, so I’ll vote the same as last time” all over again.
First, Ian, learn how to read. Second, Oliver is right on the mark. The Dem knee-jerk reaction to Dean’s statement of blatantly obvious truth (I think I saw the name Mitchell), their “hey, yer on yer own!” response to Murtha and Pelosi, their inability to represent their districts AND do the right thing, is sickening. As is Ms. Clinton’s tissue thin DLC maneuvering, and Lieberman’s shiny-lipped power whoring. This country sure needs an ethical injection. Thank god for Dean. Obama in ‘08!!!
rhys,
Good luck because your spineless party doesn’t know how to take advantage of any of this crap in the Republican majority.
Elrod,
Incase you haven’t noticed our country is based on Judeo-Christian values. There is a seperation of church and state and Republicans don’t want to change that, they just want Christmas recognized. “Progressives” and other liberals of the ilk don’t want the word Christmas being said. You know what they did first in Communist Europe, strip religion from the public.
I was asked to address what Democrats have done for Jews.
And I don’t know why.
I suppose I am foiled?
If only people would stop saying “Christmas.” That’s all I can think about!
Really? Where?
The post I pull up on my computer has OW complaining that Democrats aren’t listening to the liberal view.
“Incase you haven’t noticed our country is based on Judeo-Christian values”
The founding fathers were Deist, not Judeo-Christian.
“other liberals of the ilk don’t want the word Christmas being said.”
Say it all you want. We won’t stop you. We will however stop you from forcing us to say it. That’s what true separation of church and state means - you have the right to practice whatever superstition you want, but your rights end the moment you try to force it on me.
“You know what they did first in Communist Europe, strip religion from the public.”
So? Please name one liberal that is trying to do that. The way I see it, the only ones trying to strip religion from the public is you. You want to strip all religions (and non-religions) except your own. And then force everyone else to kow-tow to your version of God. Thanks, but no thanks.
If your faith is so fragile that it cannot survive in the face of non-believers, then that is your problem. Not ours.
Christmas Christmas Christmas
I love Christmas - always have always will…but don’t go making me celebrate no Hippy Winter Solstice!
ian: Go to history class and english class. I’ll write you a hall pass if need be.
Sorry, Zappa, but Winter Solstice is the reason you celebrate Jesus’ birthday on December 25. The man was born in the Spring (the shepherds brought in their flock in springtime, not December). December 25 was the Winter Solstice under the old calender. It was also the date of Mithra’s birthday, the Zoroastrian sun-god that tons of people worshiped in the Levant 2000 years ago. Nowhere in the New Testament does it specify a date for Jesus’ birth. Christians started celebrating Christmas on December 25 only because it coincided with the Winter Solstice. Serious Christians understand that Christmas is an unimportant holiday - Easter is the penultimate holiday.
rhys,
There you are twisting my words .. my god (sic) I would never make you say Christmas or anything you don’t want too, that is fascism. Really, I wouldn’t want you to say Christmas if you don’t want to .. but just like you don’t want to say it, people don’t want it not to be said .. as in silenced. That is fascism.
Oliver go exercise.
” I would never make you say Christmas or anything you don t want too, that is fascism.”
The so-called “War on Christmas” boils down to right-wingers complaining that shops are saying “Happy Holidays” instead of “Merry Christmas”. You don’t like what is being said and want to force those shops to say something else instead. By your own standard, that makes you the fascist.
Me, I could care less what the shops say. I don’t break out in spots when I hear “Merry Christmas”. “Happy Holidays” is certainly more inclusive of non-Christians, which is the point - the shops want to bilk more than just the Jesus set out of money this time of year. That’s called “increasing shareholder value” in business-speak.
A business that deliberately turns away customers based on their religion won’t stay in business for long. “You aren’t a Christian - we don’t want your kind shopping here”. Please see the color of your host’s skin (sorry Oliver) and ask yourself if that kind of attitude is acceptable in the 21st century. It’s not. It’s wrong, and you know it.
BTW, fascism is right-wing extremism. We are left-wingers. We’re the “communists” remember. Please get your terminology right when trying to insult us.
What do Jews or Chirstmas have to do with this post? Anyway, maybe Ian can clarify the Plan for Victory for the overwhelming majority (ie, 68%) of us who don’t know what the f@&k we are still doing in Iraq (besides bankrupting and killing of our future generation).
So I gather Ian is the resident conservative troll?
Incidentally, as a Jew myself, I find the concept of a Jew voting for the Christian Conservative Republican party hilarious. That is, of course, unless you are a very wealthy Jew and love tax breaks more than anything else in the world. The it makes pefrect sense to me.
A kid in college? Not so much.
By the way, this derailment into the “War on Christmas” from the original topic is a microcosm of how the right operates.
Rather than face the fact that their failing Iraq operation is being rejected by the public, they change the subject.
“Really, I wouldn t want you to say Christmas if you don t want to .. but just like you don t want to say it, people don t want it not to be said .. as in silenced. That is fascism.”
Who are these people who want saying the word Christmas to be stopped? Links?
Thanks in advance.
First of all, I disagree with your assessment of the Republican leadership’s view of seperation of church and state. Exhibit A: Terry Schiavo. Exhibit B: “intelligent” design. Exhibit C… do you really, really need more?
But as for the last bit of what you said, let me refer to dictionary.com:
Now, forgive me, I have to ask, do you have any reason to believe in any of what you said there? I’m just not seeing it. If you can provide links showing that most or even just many progressives don’t want the word “Christian” being said, or that most or even just many progressives want to go the way of Communist Europe, I will apologize.
“That is, of course, unless you are a very wealthy Jew and love tax breaks more than anything else in the world.”
Or care about the fate of Eretz Israel.
http://www.isranet.org/DataBank/US_Jewish_Affairs_Positions_in_Politics.htm
I think its time to bring back Brand Democrat, OW. I can see it now…..
Democrats….
We have the courage to surrendur
That is, of course, unless you are a very wealthy Jew and love tax breaks more than anything else in the world. The it makes pefrect sense to me.
One has to appreciate the irony of a Jew attempting to fit Republican voting Jews into the stereotype of them being nothing but money grubbers.
Next you’ll be telling us they control Hollywood and bring drugs and booze into all the black neighborhoods.
Randy-
Some American Jews don’t give Israel a free pass to do whatever the fuck they want just because they also happen to be Jewish. Naturally, I have no desire to see Israel wiped off the face of the map, but wanting Israeli peace/security and Israeli accountability are not mutually exclusive concepts - despite some people’s best efforts to insinuate otherwise.
You all are assuming that I
Let me make it clear … I don’t care if you don’t want to say “Merry Christmas” .. that’s your prerogative, not mine. I think the term “War on Christmas” is foolish and that is what is hurting the view of someone who doesn’t want to be silenced.
“Links” .. Hmm .. ACLU suing every instance of public support for Christmas?
How about we start with ONE link then? Please let me know where the ACLU sues for EVERY instance (or even many instances) of public support for Christmas.
Now if you think our tax dollars should be spent for religious Christmas celebrations, to the exclusion of all other faiths, or the lack of “faith”, then we have a problem.
Still waiting on that proof that the ACLU is against Christmas. The ACLU will fight for your freedom to practice your religion. Why won’t you fight for them?
The ACLU fights the right to practice your religion every day. Unlike you, however, I have proof:
ACLU of Michigan Defends Catholic Man Coerced to Convert to Pentecostal Faith in Drug Rehab Program
http://www.aclu.org/religion/govtfunding/22354prs20051206.html
ACLU Files Lawsuit to Protect Religious Liberty of Imprisoned Asylum Seeker
http://www.aclu.org/immigrants/asylum/11736prs20050518.html
ACLU Urges North Carolina Courts to Allow Use of Multiple Religious Texts for Swearing Oaths
http://www.aclu.org/religion/discrim/19937prs20050711.html
ACLU of New Jersey Successfully Defends Right of Religious Expression by Jurors
http://www.aclu.org/religion/gen/16374prs20041222.html
Here is even one from a wingnutty site
Judge Rules Against Educrats’ Anti-religious Censorship
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/3/18/113401.shtml
The ACLU will fight for your freedom to practice your religion.
Hahaha, that was a good one.
I am not saying that there should be public support for Christmas, but there shouldn’t be an outspoken denouncement of it. The ACLU has sued many towns for putting Christmas items on public property. What’s the big deal.
You still haven’t provided a link.
But also, am I the only commenter who sees a contradiction in what you’re saying?
Seems to clearly imply disapproval of the ACLU’s [alleged] actions. You seem to be complaining. But just ten words before, you said
Seems to clearly imply disapproval of public support for Christmas. So you disapprove of public support for it, but you also disappove of stopping said support. Regarding other situations that might be called libertarianism, but that attitude is generally not aimed at state actors.
Excuse the verbosity. In summary: if you don’t want public support for Christmas, then you can’t be happy with exclusively and overtly Christian actions by government. It doesn’t work.
And the idiotic Victory Plan that is neither a plan nor victory?
What a delightful turn of phrase. So flexible.
“And the idiotic ‘floor plan’ that is neither a plan nor floor?”
“And the idiotic ‘battle plan’ that is neither a plan nor battle?”
Learn a little grammar, will you, Ollie? “Victory,” in that context, is modifying “plan.” If a plan was synonymous with its object, John Kerry would be president.
Well, maybe that’s not the best example. Kerry’s “plans” all devolved into either “I’d do the opposite of what Bush did” or “I’d do just what Bush did, but better.” But the point remains the same: you attempt at pulling off a clever little bit of wordplay instead merely revealed your own 1) carelessness; B) ignorance; III) stupidity, or d) all of the above.
(List formatting courtesy “Car Talk”, one of NPR’s finest contributions to American culture)
J.
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