Daniel Pipes, writing in the unhinged David Horowitz’s FrontPage, opines that awarding the medal of freedom to Muhammad Ali is a low point in President Bush’s presidency. I think that’s a good indication of just how far afield from the mainstream the base of the conservative movement is.
Ali is without equivocation, one of the most beloved figures in American sports history. Not only for his athletic prowess or his infamous bravado, but for his refusal to be a participant in the most horrible of wars. According to Pipes, Ali has committed the sin of being Muslim, and that deviation invalidates the man’s greatness. What a weird bunch of people.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: Muslims are the new Jews. Whereas once it was perfectly acceptable to be an anti-Semite in polite society, it is now perfectly acceptable in some circles to be virulently anti-Muslim, or whatever the phrase is. I hear Horowitz and Pipes are now working on the Protocols of the Elders of Arabia.
Al -
Since Arabs are Semites too, anti-Semitic could be just fine if you were referring specifically to Arab Muslims. But that’s not the usage de rigeur, so anti-Muslim works just as well.
If Arabs are the new Jews, does that make The Champ the new Sammy Davis Jr.?
Remember that old joke — Sammy Davis Jr. gets on a bus and the driver takes one look at him and says, “get in the back.” Sammy says, “but I’m Jewish.”
And the driver says, “in that case, get off.”
Did any of you actually read the article and Pipes’s arguments? Didn’t think so.
Pipes is not against awarding Ali the Medal of Freedom because he is a Muslim, but because he is (or was) part of the Nation of Islam, a notoriously anti-American, anti-white, anti-Semitic organization.
Additionally, the Medal of Freedom was created to “recognize notable service in World War II.” Kind of strange then to give it to a draft dodger.
To say that Pipes is anti-Muslim is simply inane, clearly showing that you know nothing about his views. Pipes has always stated that the only counter to radical Islamism is moderate Islam.
I remember a late 1960’s or early 1970’s documentary in which Ali traveled to Africa. On board a jet aircraft, he points out two African pilots. “Something you won’t see in America,” Ali pointed out.
You may want to review your history. You seem to be confused about your timelines.
I love Ali because he basically told a racist country at the time…F**K YOU. Go to Vietnam as an African-American, you are good enough to bleed for the country, but not good enough to vote, sit in the front of the bus, use the front door, etc. They should give him five medals. He saw Christianity as racist and he was right.
Did any of you actually read the article and Pipes s arguments? Didn t think so.
Pipes is not against awarding Ali the Medal of Freedom because he is a Muslim, but because he is (or was) part of the Nation of Islam, a notoriously anti-American, anti-white, anti-Semitic organization.
Not that I agree with you about Muhammad Ali, but even if you’re right, do you agree with Pipes that giving him the Medal of Freedom was the “nadir” of Bush’s presidency? Not going to war, not the execution of the war, not ignoring torture, or even if you think all that is peachy, not flip-flopping on the gay marriage amendment, or the prescription drug giveaway, or ignoring Rwandan genocide, or sleeping through Katrina? Giving a ceremonial honor to a political extremist is the worst thing Bush has ever done, according to Piper?
JWG, Nudnik,:
We’re talking about an icon of American culture, someone who for two decades bestrode the nation like a collossus, exposing our faults with charm and panache, someone who wouldn’t be a nice Negro, someone who stood up with the pride of a man who could punch back. It is not hyperbole to call him the most important American of his generation.
Let’s get down to brass tacks: do you agree with Pipes that presenting Ali with the medal of freedom was the “low point” of Bush’s presidency.
Reason #34563 for the downfall of conservatism: y’all are NEVER going to get over the 60s.
To say that Pipes is anti-Muslim is simply inane
From Pipes’ article:
He became so radical a Muslim that the notorious Council on American-Islamic Relations, North America s most powerful Islamist group, also honored him with an award in June 2004.
So, being recognized by the Muslim equivalent of the ADL makes one a “radical Muslim?” What, then, does Pipes consider a “moderate?” One who gives up their religion altogether?
Get thee to LGF.
Hey, if people wanna admire Ali for the stance he took against Vietnam, more power to ‘em. He stood his ground and suffered personally and professionally for it.
That being said, all one has to do is look at some of the vicious and back-stabbing things he did and said to Joe Frazier to realize that Ali might be courageous, but he’s also a complete and total scumbag and piece of dirt.
I mean, one black man calling another black man ugly and a gorilla on national TV. Yeah, what a class act!! I’m sure the Klan loved it. Saying Frazier was the “White Man’s Champ”. Yeah, that was great.
And, of course, he’s saying all this AFTER Frazier lobbied on his behalf to get Ali reinstated and after Frazier helped him financially when Ali couldn’t fight.
Granted, the fact that Ali was such a pathetic creep and was such a total asshole to Frazier probably actually helped Joe out in some situations, such as drawing even more interest to their fights, but it doesn’t make Ali less of a two-faced scumbag.
When Ali went on a world tour in th 1970’s, he was recognized everywhere….in Kazakhistan, Bukhara, Iran…every place he went people knew who he was. It was said he was the MOST WELL KNOWN PERSON on the planet…more than Carter, Nixon, John Wayne or any other American Icon… What a great Ambassador of America he would have made.
The enemy of AMerica’s VIetNam strategy could not be an ambassador of good will. Remember…these are the same asses that hate the non threatening Bruce Springsteen commemorative because he spoke out against the war….
What do you expect for NeoCon NeoIDiots.
Al, I disagree with Pipes assessment. However, I’m not too sure this is correct:
According to a different analysis:
I’m just interested in an accurate historical account, and both sooperedd and OW are shy of the mark in this case.
Big Gay Al,
There is absolutely no comparison between the ADL and CAIR. CAIR is a front for radical, not moderate, Islam. It supports Hamas and Islamic Jihad. A number of its leaders have been indicted on terrorism charges. If you want to compare CAIR to a Jewish group, the closest comparison is the JDL.
I wouldn’t say awarding Ali the Medal was the “nadir” of the Bush Presidency, but I would also not say that it was ny of those things that you cite. Regardless, that was not the point of OW’s post.
As I predicted, someone has authored Protocols of the Elders of Arabia. My God, we are witnessing history repeating itself:
The Project” - the document I discussed last week. The Project is an outline for a strategy - most likely drawn up by the Muslim Brotherhood - to combine jihad, surveillance, infiltration and propaganda (among other techniques) in order to “establish the reign of Allah throughout in the world” via the creation of the Caliphate and its subsequent dominance.
http://dailyablution.blogs.com/the_daily_ablution/2005/11/the_project_par.html
As I predicted, someone has authored Protocols of the Elders of Arabia.
Of course, the only difference is that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a well-known forgery, while these documents of the Muslim Brotherhood are real. Aside from that, its the same.
while these documents of the Muslim Brotherhood are real
Who wrote it? Who’s the author? Who other than the person whose house it was found in known to have read it?
Anyway, the point is, you believe there is a worldwide conspiracy by Muslims to take over the world? No wonder Mohammed Ali getting a medal pisses you off.
Do you think Muslims control the weather as well? Maybe Muslims have taken over the world’s finances from the Jooooooos.
Anyway, the point is, you believe there is a worldwide conspiracy by Muslims to take over the world?
Listen to what bin Laden and Zawahiri and Zarqawi say. They want to re-establish the Caliphte. They are the Muslim Brothehood.
Three psychotic radicals does not a worldwide conspiracy make.
And you’d be naive if you didn’t think that somewhere in the world, there are Jews who think even the forged Protocols aren’t a bad idea. You could lump such people, in with al-Qaida and the American Neo-Nazi movement, since they all want different versions of the same thing–everybody to look and think just like them.
The million-dollar question now is: will I be branded an unabashed anti-Semite for daring to suggest that some Jews might be capable of the same human failings as some Muslims and all Neo-Nazis?
Three psychotic radicals does not a worldwide conspiracy make.
They may be 3 psychotics, but they have tremendous support in the Muslim world. Just look at the polls coming out of the Middle East.
Count me as one who believes the medal inappropriate for Ali. He didn’t serve when his time came. You can do that in this country and become an adored public figure. But don’t mistake that popular adulation for real service to freedom. Who’s tthe bigger hero: the poor kid who serves his country by doing his patriotic chore, serving an a democracy’s armed services, or a charismatic millionaire boxer who didn’t.
Dugger
Hey Dugger.. call me crazy, but your boy George didn’t serve when his time came, either.
Perhaps what you meant to say was-
Who’s the bigger hero: the poor kid who serves his country by doing his patriotic duty (chore), serving in a democracy’s armed services, or a dopey, cokehead, millionaire, failed businessman, drunk driver who went to Alabama to play volleyball with ambitious secretaries? (or, maybe you meant to say something about the guy who got five deferments in order not to serve, all because he had “other priorities.”)
Serve your country by participating in what you believe is an immoral war? There’s no patriotism in that.
Whoever said that teh Muslim Brotherhood, which is an Egyptian political organization founded by Hassan El Banna at the turn of the century, is equivalent to Zawahiri et al, is insane. And this document is a piece of crap forgery. The MB does not call for the return of a caliphate. the Egyptian MB has a platform - which is full of fuzzy talk about progress and stuff. They just won 76 seats in Parliament. They are not Al Qaida.
I am against religious parties and would be very unhappy if the MB came to power here in Egypt but to equate them with Al Qaida is completely inane.
Cassius Clay was manipulated by Elijah Muhammed into changing his name, and refusing to answer the call to the draft. I remember it well. You only have a “historical recollection.”
He almost went to jail; only his celebrity saved him. He had the opportunity to box in Special Services, but he refused that also. So he didn’t just refuse to “participate in what he believed was an immoral war,” he refused to enter the Armed Forces, because of the so - called religious beliefs of a “religion” invented by an ex - convict in Detroit.
Great boxer — yes. Inspirational sports figure — yes. Great American — not hardly.
Do you tell these whoppers reflexively, or do you have to think about ‘em?
His celebrity and a unanimous Supreme Court decision allowed Mr. Ali to win conscientious objector status from his draft board. His application for objector status was initially denied because the United States Department of Justice intervened in his appeal to his draft board.
Why did the DOJ find his case to be worthy of intervention? I’d argue that it was because of his visibility as heavyweight champion and the celebrity that went with his achievements. In short, he didn’t escape prison because of his celebrity, he was sentenced because of it.
Isn’t that nice?
If I recall, all of Christianity devolves from the teachings of a “convict.”
Oliver,
This is a democracy. Everybody should serve and IMO, the individual should not be able to pick and choose which wars he will or won’t fight in. If I were God/president, everybody would serve 2 years in the military or four years of public service (military more dangerous, harder). Everybody. But then I would never get elected.
Dugger,
WE live in a democracy. When Ali’s time came to do his duty he shirked it.
musclehead,
Hope your blog is better than your reasoning here. Bush served in the Guard. Flew fighters. That is service period. They were rather dangerous fighters to just fly BTW. He easily could have been sent overseas. He did much, much more than Ali. But the topic was about Ali. Why didn’t you pick Clinton as an example of a president who ordred troops into combat and didn’t serve?
Dugger
Frank D. I think I admire Ali even more for not entering the Armed Forces knowing he wouldn’t have to fight. He could have decided not to rock the boat and just get put on an Armed Forces boxing team. He would have had cake duty, but he decided that he wasn’t going to support a country where he was treated as a second class citizen fighting a war he believed was wrong.
JWG- when you say you may want to review your history, you may be literally right, i.e. he may have been able to vote and sit in the front of the bus (I’m a little less clear on being able to go in the front door), but the soopered’s larger point is substantially right. African-Americans were very much second class citizens at the time. As he said, “no vietcong ever called me nigger.”
cybishop-Clinton was the one who ignored the Rwandan massacre.
When Ali’s time came, he followed the law. He filed as a conscientious objector and when his application was denied, he filed an appeal.
The United States Department of Justice, however, singled him out to make an example of him. The DOJ sent a letter directly to Ali’s draft board, asking them to deny his appeal. They did so.
Ali took his appeal all the way to the Supreme Court which found unanimously in his favor.
Why don’t you respect the rule of law, Dugger?
The Guard was how you ducked Vietnam…period. Rich kids don’t go in the military and they don’t die. Proudly served ‘85-’88 and the Gulf War, did not run into any millionares nor their kids. Rich folks start the wars and the poor folks die in them, crack a history book.
Why didn’t Bush volunteer for Vietnam if he was such a great fighter pilot?
Bush was AWOL, disgraced the uniform and all those that wore it, but plenty of people voted for him anyway while smearing Kerry, a true American.
Just like they are trying to do to Murtha.
Bunch of candy asses.
And you allege that he “shirked his duty.” What defines his duty? The law? Or Dugger’s proclamation?
As I said above, I think Ali is a scumbag personally and it has nothing to do with him not serving. I don’t totally agree with Dugger in this case. If Ali was against the war and followed the law to get out of it, that’s his right.
That being said, when ESPN did their list of the 100 greatest athletes, it is rather telling that one of the reasons he ranked as high as he did had a lot do with what he did out of the ring. Most boxing experts will tell you that, if they fought when both were in their primes, Joe Louis would’ve cleaned Ali’s clock.
The point being, people talk about how great Ali would’ve been had he not had to take that time out of the ring, and automatically bump as his stature as a result.
I don’t usually see Ted Williams being bumped up on all these “greatest” lists, even though he missed some prime years because he DID serve during WWII and Korea.
Why don t you respect the rule of law, Dugger?
But I do. I haven’t called for Ali’s millionaire b*tt to be thrown in jail. I acknowledge that he was able, via legal means, to avoid serving his country. But his not serving is enough in my book to warrant no national medals. Save it for somebody who served his country. Ali can salve his ‘moral’ wounds with his lucre - lucre he was able to win because, partially, the sons and daughters of others served when and where he didn’t.
Dugger
My opinion. We live in a democratic society. We have a representative government. To maintain that government requires the support and efforts of its citizenry: including serving that country in its armed forces - even if you don’t agree with what is being done. A ‘democracy’ ultimately, IMO, will not work if citizens are allowed to pick and choose the laws they want to obey and the duties they want to perform. I call that a duty: you may not want to do it, you may not like doing it, you may disagree with doing it, but you do it - the higher -the highest- principal beeing democratic service. I don’t regard the individual who, when his time comes, says, “no because of my own selfish beliefs, I will not join the armed force and serve along with other citizens” as being worthy of a national medal. Give him a millionaire’s boxer medal or something, but not one for service to his country.
Dugger
OK.
I was taking issue with your charge that he “shirked his duty.” In my way of looking at it, his obligation is defined by law, not by Dugger. Feel free to disagree, but in doing so, realize that you substitute your own judgment for the law when it comes to determining what constitutes a citizen’s “duty.”
My question about respect for the rule of law followed from that premise.
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