Glenn Reynolds Explains That You Poor People Shouldn’t Go To College
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With only a few exceptions (like being admitted to Yale Law School or CalTech) I strongly recommend avoiding student loans.
Now, I don’t think people should get college loans if they don’t have to. No doubt, if you can find some other way to pay for school, God bless you, do it. But for most middle class people, they can’t just write a check to pay for college. They have to take out loans. There isn’t any other magical option, other than not going. Now, we could go back in time and have just the truly well off educated, but then it wouldn’t be much of an America anymore.
38 Responses to “Glenn Reynolds Explains That You Poor People Shouldn’t Go To College”
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© 2000-2011 Oliver Willis
Finally, Oliver… something we agree on!
Fortunately, as Zip points out, there is a quite simple non-magical option:
Work, be frugal, save, and pay as you go. Take a semester off if you must to save up more money.
Nothing magical about it. Including the fact that such a solution eludes you.
I’m not going to follow a link to the site of a self-proclaimed “libertarian/conservative” who feeds at the public tit. We should consider that in civilized countries, anyone who qualifies for entry can attend college. What a horribly communonaziislamosocialist idea!
Zip, where in the wide world of FUCK does OW mention race in this post?
You see everything through the lens of racism.
Talk about seeing things that aren’t there. LOLOLOLOL.
Looks like in Zip’s mind “poor” = “black”.
It’s almost impossible to go to school without either a scholarship, loan, or massive financial resources.
One thing I find interesting is that a lot of obituaries mention that the subject went to some school(like Yale, or Harvard) but they were able to afford it by having a summer or part-time job for the extra funds they needed.
A libertarian who works for the Government, that’s the best reason to ignore him.
I took out student loans to go to graduate school, and I hated doing it. HATED it. And it took me ten long years (during a period when I could barely afford rent and food) to pay them back. But I don’t regret it, because I’ve since made back the cost of those loans several times over, in jobs that I could not possibly have gotten without the grad school. It’s been especially satisfying because graduate schools routinely deny financial aid in order to weed out marginal candidates, and I was one of those marginal candidates. If I had just thrown up my hands and said, “I can’t afford it,” I’d be a LOT poorer today. No question about it.
Make no mistake — taking out student loans stinks. And it stinks even more when you’re condescendingly told, “if you really want to go, you’ll find a way” — implying that the reason you can’t afford college is that you don’t *want* it enough. But in our present system it’s often the only solution for middle-class people.
Reynolds’s mindset reminds me of what Miss Manners said about the rich: they believe money flows naturally toward superior people.
As an adjunct professor paying off college loans, I agree that it’s a long and arduous process getting out from under. One thing that can help is asking professors whenever possible to use open source textbooks. While tuition can be steep, textbooks are a dreadful racket.
The word “professor” rarely appears unprecedented by the word “associate” anymore, either.
Talk about seeing things that aren’t there. LOLOLOLOL.
That’s exactly what you did in your headline to this blog post, Oliver. Glenn Reynolds didn’t say that.
I don’t know what kind of lens you use, but one thing’s for sure, it’s not a reflective one.
“You see everything through the lens of racism.”
So “poor” is now a race?
Glenn Reynolds is a poor man’s Lady Fanny of Omaha.
To be honest, I’d say in a lot of instances, Reynolds is right. I have a friend that is now 60,000 dollars in debt, and what does he have to show for it……a degree in sociology. Yeah….not gonna make the big bucks with that one. He’ll be paying on this loan for the rest of his life, and all for this worthless degree. So in an instance like this, I’d say he’s right. Other generic degrees are equally worthless….english, liberal arts, communications, some business degrees are all ones that people I know have that aren’t paying off.
I would avoid student loans, unless I was going to get a degree in something like engineering, accounting, nursing, etc, things that will pay off in the long run.
sidenote: college is way too f***ing expensive.
Is that a “black-people-are-the-real-racists” attempt, Zippo?
There is one exception to that: the sciences. No one I know of goes to graduate school in the sciences and pays for it. I can speak directly for physics but I believe this is true of mathematics, biology, chemistry, etc. When you start grad school in these fields (aiming for a PhD) the first year or 2 you are usually employed as an Teaching Assistant proctoring undergraduate lab classes, grading papers, etc. After that (and usually after you pass your qualifying exam) you’re employed as a Research Assistant, being paid as part of some professor’s research team leading up to completion of your doctoral research. This includes coverage of tuition, etc. I had to take out loans to help pay for my undergrad education (along with scholarships, grants, and work-study programs), but I never borrowed an additional time for graduate study.
Of course Instacracker equates grad school with Law school, or possibly medical, and for these most of us lumpenproletariat generally take out many tens or even hundred thousand dollar loans.
The high school-to-college model is a failure. Take a look at the drop out rates for proof. A large majority of first and second year college students waste any funds they have on trying to live “The College Lifestyle” and said lifestyle ends up with them dropping out before achieving their goal. Most are simply not mature enough to make their way through successfully and retain the information.
If the student were decently educated in high school, they could step into an entry level job where they would work for a couple/few years to save up the funds for college. Or even better, as I am doing, my employer is reimbursing me for most of my education costs so that I can become a better employee.
It is the progressive/neo-liberal mindset that demands everyone go to college, even if their aptitude is more towards the trades. It is also the progressive/neo-liberal mindset that demands the government provide for it if the person cannot afford it.
The Constitution states the government is to “promote the general welfare.” It does not say “provide.”
First: It is the conservative/management mindset that has driven the unnecessary attainment of a college degree for jobs where experience and common sense should suffice. That’s been true for forty years. My father left the railroad in the late ’60s before he could be fired and replaced with a 22-year-old with no experience but with a college degree. Most of his friends in the same boat – twenty years’ and more experience but no degree – were let go. Having a degree is still a useful screening element to deny a job to someone with enough experience but no paper, or to fire an older worker who earned his position before a degree was required and costs the company too much money. Happened to a guy at work last year – no promotion because he had no degree, even though he did the job better than his previous bosses had.
Second: What entry level jobs are going to provide enough money for independent living and saving up for college? Even public universities are running thousands of dollars per semester for tuition, never mind room and board and books and fees. Associates’ degrees from community college won’t get you many jobs with advancement potential these days.
Third: I think steve just made the argument for a college degree. Degrees mean more money for the recipient (hopefully) and that means a more productive citizen, which means more spending in the economy and tax revenue for the government. It also supports a higher probability of a more stable economic platform for a family, if the earners have a better and less replaceable position at work. How is this not promoting the general welfare? It’s an investment in the future productivity of the recipient that pays off far more often than not. Medical school loans are the same type of investment, and more risky, but enough students make it through to pay off the loans to make them worth the risk.
I wish that were still true, but I don’t think it is. With loss of revenue from endowments for private schools and less funding from states for the public schools and from the federal government for both, even science graduate students are taking out loans these days. My former roommate racked up $40+k in loans getting his Ph.D. in chemistry and just graduated two years ago. Not as bad as humanities or other liberal arts advanced degrees, but still something new. When I was in grad school in the 90s, what you are saying was completely true. I hope that becomes true again.
Well, no. The progressive mindset is about providing the opportunity for everyone with the intelligence and desire to go to college.
As for the inclusion of “neo-liberal” in your statement, perhaps you meant simply “liberal”? Which is pretty much the same as above.
A “large majority” do not drop out (wasting funds is another question altogether). About 1 in 3 drop out of college. A lot to be sure, but far from a majority. However, these are not all dropping out because they couldn’t handle the lifestyle and are wasting funds. 47% of low-income students who did not return left in good standing.
Dennis, of course he didn’t say it with those exact words. However, what would be the result of his idea that very few people should take out loans? Very few poor people would go to college.
There are two scenarios. One, he doesn’t think poor people should go to college. Two, he is so completely out of touch, in a post about how expensive college is he is completely unaware of how difficult it is to pay for it. I’m not sure in his case these are mutually exclusive.
So you do think that only black people are poor, then? Because that is the only way that your statements about OW would make even the slightest shred of sense.
So you do think that only black people are poor, then? Because that is the only way that your statements about OW would make even the slightest shred of sense.
tim, don’t be naive. It’s a completely ridiculous assertion to state that Glenn Reynolds was advocating poor people not to even consider going to college. If you read the New York Times article and the responses he posted at the link above that that is what he’s saying, then I’m not going to be able to explain it to you.
Here, from Dave Ramsey’s website:
He’s offering some alternatives to the situation the article in the NYT addresses, which is that many students have bought into the idea of going to the absolute best college they can no matter what the cost, when many people go into debt and aren’t able to pay it back. Sugesting that students avoid student loans doesn’t mean advocating they not going to college at all.
It’s the same thing as me saying people should avoid racking up huge amounts of credit card debt for things that aren’t absolutely necessary, like high-end HDTV sets and expensive gaming computers, then Oliver accusing me of saying that poor people shouldn’t own TV sets and computers.
We could do our youth a big favor by having more variety and choice in our high school curriculums. The high school I graduated from in the early 60′s had a dual path approach that offered pure academic and half academic and half ‘shop’. The kid who wanted to be an auto mechanic, carpenter, electrician, etc., had the opportunity to get a solid head start on getting ready to be employable soon after high school. That school today only offers the academic path.
Geeze, Dennis, that’s exactly what Reynolds is saying.
“Now, we could go back in time and have just the truly well off educated, but then it wouldn’t be much of an America anymore.”
Another unwarranted assumption. Go back and read The Bell Curve – and not the chapter on race.
No, MrBenchley, Reynolds didn’t say that.
—–
You see, dolt, in Oliver’s headline and then in his commentary….
Glenn Reynolds Explains That You Poor People Shouldn’t Go To College
and
But for most middle class people, they can’t just write a check to pay for college. They have to take out loans.
——
One of those statements of Oliver’s is not like the other. Can you guess which one it is?
Dennis….it’s a shame the lump of suet in your head doesn’t work.
Better sticvk to pretending Jon Stewart isn’t a comedian.
Why not the chapter on race, Frank? Other than that it shows what a pantload the entire book is?
A large majority of first and second year college students waste any funds they have on trying to live “The College Lifestyle” and said lifestyle ends up with them dropping out before achieving their goal.
I’m gonna go right out on a limb here and without a moment’s research accuse you of pulling that outta your butt. “A large majority”? Really?
Because the chapter on race is not relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out by numerous commenters already. The chapters on who was considered to be smart, and how well “legacy” students performed are telling. You obviously haven’t read the book, if you can dismiss it as a “pantload”. Might as well call the OED “just definitions.”
I’m not sure who Dave Ramsey is or what he has to do with what Instapundit thinks, but ok.
Those are fine alternatives but will not work for everyone. How many high school grads can get a job that will allow them to save enough to go to college? How many scholarships are there?
I’m not actually interested in what Instapundit actually thinks or feels regarding poor people or the middle class or anyone else. I am interested in how the policies and actions he advocates affect (or would affect) the poor and middle class. Without student loans many, many poor and middle class people would not be able to attend college, and would be the worse off for it.
Boneheads see pretty kryptonite, not understand it make them weaker because they no understand it too.
Because the chapter on race demonstrates the glaring credibility problems the book has, it’s relevant any time someone wants the book to be treated seriously.
Exactly so. The Bell Curve is racist crackpottery, not serious science.
I do think it’s funny that towards the end, he’s saying “gulp” in response to the cost of education possibly plummeting. Of course, you can’t really ask him what he means about it because he’s disabled comments… in the interest of public discourse, I’m sure.
Those of second generation or further are apathetic cause 1st generation students must compensate at times for learning the material. Public education has failed us time after time with incompetent teachers, over paying of useless equipment, over worked parents, low infrastructure and preparation for college in or outside of high school. I’m disabled and I don’t know nemeth code cause of being blind later and rehabilitation has failed me and I’m trying to change this. People constantly falling threw the cracks and nothing but judgemental narrow minded morons being entitled middle to upper class people to greet us in college.