Or better polling questions.

What would you have them do, Adam? Or rather, what would have had them do? If the people who oppose this bill are largely opposed to it because the President is a black Democrat, and not because of any REAL policy issues, then what exactly would have been the public prescription you seem to think so highly of?

What about the 2008 elections? Obama did not shy away from the fact he planned to overtake a major overhaul in the health care system, IIRC. If the public was that freaked out about it, you’d think that he wouldn’t have taken that tack, or would have stopped bringing it up when finding that it “didn’t poll well” (if it truly didn’t, which I doubt).

Here’s what I think. The 47% of people that opposed him in the election last year are opposing the health care bill, mostly because they are ideological hacks, bitter fools, idiots, and/or racists. If you think that each of them, or a majority of them, or even a significant minority of them, has formed their opinion intelligently by looking at the issues, then I have a bridge to sell you. After that 47%, it’s only what… another 4-5% of people?

Yeah, sounds about right.

I repeat: Fuck the Republicans, pass this bill in their faces.

Was that the current CIC or President Chugalug?

For future reference, rushing to complete major legislation without consulting the public, and then only responding once Republicans have already defined the bill is really, really bad politics.

Democrats had all the interest groups lined up. They thought that was the key. Never mind the people, what was really important was getting PHARMA, AHIP, the AMA, AARP, and the Chamber of Commerce on board. It was cynical interest group politics, a complete mislearning of the lessons of 1994.

When the recriminations start after the 2010 elections, it may be comforting to blame some right-wing conspiracy, but really, Democrats screwed up. Democrats have the “govern for the people” thing, but they forgot that you can’t govern for the people without consulting the people. Even Republicans know that you need a “product roll out” for any major legislation.

Possible outcomes

Advance the cutting edge of healthcare

Increase the supply of healthcare

Decrease the supply

Lower the cost of treatment

Raise the cost of treatment

Shift the cost of healthcare from one group of Americans to another, if so which group subsidizes which group

Increase the number of Americans with coverage

Enhance existing coverage for the majority of Americans now covered

Diminish existing coverage for the above mentioned

Expand availability of treatments for the majority of americans now covered

Ration the availability of treatments for those now covered

My personal opinion is the legislation will diminish the quality of healthcare, increase the over all cost, lead to rationing as policy, and generally degrade the healthcare quality for the majority of Americans who currently have coverage.

The truly wealthy will continue to get first rate care, possibly offshore. The truly indigent will continue to get care but from a system whose overall performance has diminished from what it once was. Both the young and the affluent will have their costs rise out of proportion to the majority. The elderly will be denied the same quality of care they now receive as a matter of policy. In short, many losers and few winners. The biggest positive change perhaps will be a shift towards emergency centers treating actual emercencies.

Imagine my disappointment when I found out that it wasn’t true.

A problem, Adam. Implicitly, you make the assumption that everyone is being rational about this bill, and that those that are against it are well-informed and knowledgeable about the topic. You also don’t take into consideration the serious amount of misinformation (e.g., Fox News talking heads) out there that is designed to distort and scare people. The Republicans have been howling about this bill for months. Much of what they have been screaming about has nothing to do with what is actually in the bill – instead, they are so concerned with defeating Obama on this that they will make up any bald-faced lie to try and stop the bill. See Mr. DeMint’s comments above. Personally, I don’t think it matters how good the bill is – it will still face substantial (irrational) opposition from Republicans who care more about the partisan political fight than in getting anything constructive done. Fuck all of them.

I personally think that the Democrats would have been better served ignoring the jackasses on the right side of the aisle and putting together a good bill without their input, and then passed it themselves. As it is, there have been somewhat unfortunate concessions to the Republican side, even though none of them (with the potential exception of Olympia Snowe) have any intention of supporting it. None.

Of course, this doesn’t take into consideration guys like Lieberman and Nelson, who might stand with the Republicans in a filibuster. Which I think is goddamned ridiculous, that they would break from their caucus on whether to have a vote on the bill. Not to mention all the griping from the Republicans about having an up-or-down vote for years when they were in control, and now the Democrats can’t get shit done without having 60 votes on board in the Senate.

The whole thing is a fucking trainwreck, and it makes me absolutely sick.

Knowing Frank’s propensity for delusion, he really could mean either one. Perhaps both.

Thanks Quaker.

Sorry, I’m lost. A little help?

And Americans agree on the need for health care reform. But you have to debate the specifics too. Health care reform involves a ton of tradeoffs that will affect different interest groups and different individuals in different ways.

If Americans generally support health care reform but the actual bill is only polling at 40-45%, then you need a better bill.

“Lesson learned: Get a half-decent plan (doesn’t need to be perfect) and get it passed quickly.

Waiting just gives room for the opposition to peck at it like woodpeckers.”

Which isn’t particularly relevant if it’s a good plan. This plan isn’t good. It costs a trillion dollars and doesn’t even cover everyone or reform anything. As Howard Dean said, all the reforms have been stripped out except the public option, and even that’s not going to survive.

All that’s left is to support a health care bill for a political victory. if Democrats are willing to pass a crappy health care bill for purely political reasons, why be hypocritical and slam Republicans for opposing one for purely political reasons?

Country first, right, guys?