’)A new report says that a triggered public option is superior to the current, more watered down provisions. A trigger would probably pass the senate, though fricking Lieberman says he’ll block any public option (seriously, WTF up with the senate allowing one senator to derail crap?). Personally I have been concerned that if something wasn’t passed in the Senate before Thanksgiving we might not get anything, and I am dead certain if it isn’t passed this calendar year it will be dead.
The fate of this entire thing is on Harry Reid. There are 60 votes in the Democratic caucus. There should be 60 votes for cloture, and at least 51 for passage. It’s on Harry Reid.
Take his chairmanship away already. He won’t investigate Blackwater so what good is he chairing Homeland Security committee? Our party is so afraid of the reaction of the villagers
Fuck Lieberman. What a dick.
Even if it doesn’t pass this year and Democrats have slimmer majorities, there is no reason this should be dead.
The real issue is that Democrats decided that health care was so important that they couldn’t consult the people, but instead had to rush it through by July 2009. Not exactly a good way to build trust.
If Democrats want to pass health care, all they have to do is the same thing they did with Medicare: Engage in a long debate until they either convince Americans to support it, or engage in a long debate until it’s obvious Americans won’t support it. This “rush to pass it” every time the Democrats win an election isn’t very productive, since it results in a quick backlash every time they try it.
Medicare was voted on three or four seperate times. Democrats never gave up on it. And why should they have? It had 65% support in polls! The current health care bill: 40-45%. You have to get that number up to pass it.
Why the rush from Democrats? Simple:
The longer the debate, the more people have a chance to pick through those 2000+ pages and actually see what’s in the bill. And they don’t like it.
The longer the debate, the more people have a chance to pick through those 2000+ pages and actually see what’s in the bill.
And if you believe that people are actually doing this, and hadn’t made up their minds already, then I have a bridge to sell you.
From the very beginning, the Republicans have been fighting health care reform. They were against it before there was any bill to be against. And they’ve used underhanded and deceitful means to try and defeat it. They’ve lied through their teeth so many times it’s ridiculous. Sen. Inhofe (R) spoke about needed to defeat health care reform to “break Obama.” That’s fucked up.
The Republicans deserve to be locked away in a small room while the Democrats pass this bill. They need a time-out.
Sen. Inhofe (R) spoke about needed to defeat health care reform to “break Obama.” That’s fucked up.
Country first, right, guys?
Not Inhofe. DeMint.
Ah, crap. My bad. I sometimes get the particularly insane Republicans mixed up.
Thanks Quaker.
The version the Republicans printed out was over 2000 pages but when it was entered into the Congressional Record (every single word of it) it miraculously only took up 209 pages.
Hmmm, RepubliCONS couldn’t possibly be trying to be tricky and dishonest while shouting 2000 pages over and over and over and over …
Engage in a long debate until they either convince Americans to support it, or engage in a long debate until it’s obvious Americans won’t support it
We’ve had that debate now, for DECADES. If anything the Dems have moved far to slow on reform. It should have passed from this summer.
My belief is that the Democrats underestimated the opposition and the vitrol.
Especially Obama. I am sure he really thought that the Republicans would at least engage with the usual mantra of Tort Reform/Individual choice mantra of Health Care in a serious manner. Because the Democrats thought in a serious manner going into January/February that Healthacre reform, once moving, would be a no brainer to pass.
Lesson learned: Get a half-decent plan (doesn’t need to be perfect) and get it passed quickly.
Waiting just gives room for the opposition to peck at it like woodpeckers.
It has been introduced to the Senate every year since 1948. How long a debate do you propose?
This is the only trigger a Republican will never pull.
And fifty years ago, more debate meant more debate. Today, more debate means more lies from Republicans who want to make this Mr Obama’s Waterloo, to use their phrase. The Republicans have been arguing in bad faith since day one, and giving them more time to argue in bad faith is unacceptable. They’ve had months to present a health care overhaul bill of their own, and the only list of ideas they’ve come up with is worse than anything the Democrats have proposed.
I know Republicans think this is the worst bill ever, until the next one. They have earned their way out of having any further opinion on the subject. They have no credibility. They have no ability to do anything but oppose everything. No further debate is needed, as they have nothing new to say.
Good point.
Some conservatives are suggesting that he give it up, and come back and fight another day. Since President “bow and scrape” has totally screwed the pooch in foreign affairs, he has other tasks to attend to.
You have an interesting perspective of failure, Frank.
screwed the pooch in foreign affairs = isn’t killing enough swarthy people, right Frank?
has totally screwed the pooch in foreign affairs,
Sorry, I’m lost. A little help?
I think that Frank either means that Obama has had sex with canines on his recent overseas travels, or is referring to the fact that Obama bowing to another foreign leader is somehow the the worst possible thing EVAR! Oh NOES!
Knowing Frank’s propensity for delusion, he really could mean either one. Perhaps both.
I wonder if Japanese wingnuts go all batshit when the opposition PM shakes President Obama’s hand.
Wait, was President Obama the one who declared ‘old Europe’ was against a war of choice for profit, decided that ‘you are with us, or with the terrorists,’ and ignored, demeaned and derided any and all criticism of his maddeningly incompetent foriegn policy of shoot first and shoot questioners later?
Was that the current CIC or President Chugalug?
It _is_ distressing to see PRESIDENT Obama squander and dissipate the tremendous goodwill and international bonhomie that the previous POTUS established during his administration – isn’t it, Frank?
“We’ve had that debate now, for DECADES. If anything the Dems have moved far to slow on reform. It should have passed from this summer.”
And Americans agree on the need for health care reform. But you have to debate the specifics too. Health care reform involves a ton of tradeoffs that will affect different interest groups and different individuals in different ways.
If Americans generally support health care reform but the actual bill is only polling at 40-45%, then you need a better bill.
“Lesson learned: Get a half-decent plan (doesn’t need to be perfect) and get it passed quickly.
Waiting just gives room for the opposition to peck at it like woodpeckers.”
Which isn’t particularly relevant if it’s a good plan. This plan isn’t good. It costs a trillion dollars and doesn’t even cover everyone or reform anything. As Howard Dean said, all the reforms have been stripped out except the public option, and even that’s not going to survive.
All that’s left is to support a health care bill for a political victory. if Democrats are willing to pass a crappy health care bill for purely political reasons, why be hypocritical and slam Republicans for opposing one for purely political reasons?
If Americans generally support health care reform but the actual bill is only polling at 40-45%, then you need a better bill.
A problem, Adam. Implicitly, you make the assumption that everyone is being rational about this bill, and that those that are against it are well-informed and knowledgeable about the topic. You also don’t take into consideration the serious amount of misinformation (e.g., Fox News talking heads) out there that is designed to distort and scare people. The Republicans have been howling about this bill for months. Much of what they have been screaming about has nothing to do with what is actually in the bill – instead, they are so concerned with defeating Obama on this that they will make up any bald-faced lie to try and stop the bill. See Mr. DeMint’s comments above. Personally, I don’t think it matters how good the bill is – it will still face substantial (irrational) opposition from Republicans who care more about the partisan political fight than in getting anything constructive done. Fuck all of them.
I personally think that the Democrats would have been better served ignoring the jackasses on the right side of the aisle and putting together a good bill without their input, and then passed it themselves. As it is, there have been somewhat unfortunate concessions to the Republican side, even though none of them (with the potential exception of Olympia Snowe) have any intention of supporting it. None.
Of course, this doesn’t take into consideration guys like Lieberman and Nelson, who might stand with the Republicans in a filibuster. Which I think is goddamned ridiculous, that they would break from their caucus on whether to have a vote on the bill. Not to mention all the griping from the Republicans about having an up-or-down vote for years when they were in control, and now the Democrats can’t get shit done without having 60 votes on board in the Senate.
The whole thing is a fucking trainwreck, and it makes me absolutely sick.
I think one of the most unpopular features of the current bill is the “death panels”. So unpopular that even explicitly repudiating the non-existent “death panels” didn’t help budge opposition to those dirty rotten granny-killing “death panels”. Why do the Democrats love their “death panels” so much…?
Personally, I love murdering the elderly. I was so excited when Palin and other Republicans started hyping them up as a major part of the Democrats’ health care plan. I was going to investigate what the needed qualifications were to sit on these “death panels,” so that I could send thousands of gray-haired people to their deaths.
Imagine my disappointment when I found out that it wasn’t true.
If Americans generally support health care reform but the actual bill is only polling at 40-45%, then you need a better bill.
Or better polling questions.
What are the desired outcomes of the Democrats’s healthcare legislation and how likely is it that this bill will accomplish that goal?
Possible outcomes
Advance the cutting edge of healthcare
Increase the supply of healthcare
Decrease the supply
Lower the cost of treatment
Raise the cost of treatment
Shift the cost of healthcare from one group of Americans to another, if so which group subsidizes which group
Increase the number of Americans with coverage
Enhance existing coverage for the majority of Americans now covered
Diminish existing coverage for the above mentioned
Expand availability of treatments for the majority of americans now covered
Ration the availability of treatments for those now covered
My personal opinion is the legislation will diminish the quality of healthcare, increase the over all cost, lead to rationing as policy, and generally degrade the healthcare quality for the majority of Americans who currently have coverage.
The truly wealthy will continue to get first rate care, possibly offshore. The truly indigent will continue to get care but from a system whose overall performance has diminished from what it once was. Both the young and the affluent will have their costs rise out of proportion to the majority. The elderly will be denied the same quality of care they now receive as a matter of policy. In short, many losers and few winners. The biggest positive change perhaps will be a shift towards emergency centers treating actual emercencies.
It may be comforting to think that Americans aren’t being rational about this health care bill, but it won’t help you at the polls in 2010. And I don’t think anyone can dispute that Democrats didn’t bother to engage the public at all until Republicans started attacking the bill.
For future reference, rushing to complete major legislation without consulting the public, and then only responding once Republicans have already defined the bill is really, really bad politics.
Democrats had all the interest groups lined up. They thought that was the key. Never mind the people, what was really important was getting PHARMA, AHIP, the AMA, AARP, and the Chamber of Commerce on board. It was cynical interest group politics, a complete mislearning of the lessons of 1994.
When the recriminations start after the 2010 elections, it may be comforting to blame some right-wing conspiracy, but really, Democrats screwed up. Democrats have the “govern for the people” thing, but they forgot that you can’t govern for the people without consulting the people. Even Republicans know that you need a “product roll out” for any major legislation.
without consulting the public
What would you have them do, Adam? Or rather, what would have had them do? If the people who oppose this bill are largely opposed to it because the President is a black Democrat, and not because of any REAL policy issues, then what exactly would have been the public prescription you seem to think so highly of?
What about the 2008 elections? Obama did not shy away from the fact he planned to overtake a major overhaul in the health care system, IIRC. If the public was that freaked out about it, you’d think that he wouldn’t have taken that tack, or would have stopped bringing it up when finding that it “didn’t poll well” (if it truly didn’t, which I doubt).
Here’s what I think. The 47% of people that opposed him in the election last year are opposing the health care bill, mostly because they are ideological hacks, bitter fools, idiots, and/or racists. If you think that each of them, or a majority of them, or even a significant minority of them, has formed their opinion intelligently by looking at the issues, then I have a bridge to sell you. After that 47%, it’s only what… another 4-5% of people?
Yeah, sounds about right.
I repeat: Fuck the Republicans, pass this bill in their faces.