This right wing propaganda was not from what Fox has tried to call its opinion hours, but during what is supposedly straight news. When the Dow is down its Obama’s fault, and when its up? Clearly its thanks to the Republicans.
I can’t imagine why the White House doesn’t see them as legitimate.
>> Fox’s news programs echo its “opinion” shows: Smears, doctored videos, GOP talking points
“Is This Now the Bush Recovery?”
No.
This has been another edition of Simple Answers to Stupid Questions.
Is that or is that not a question mark?
PS: The collapse of the Dollar (under Obama’s watch) means the DOW hasn’t gained any subsequent market share even with the 10K benchmark.
Heck of a Job, Geitner.
Is that or is that not a question mark?
It’s a well known Fox tactic in order to inject nonsense into the debate. ie: Is SaveFarris A GOP Shill? Does SaveFarris Kick Puppies? People Wonder, Does SaveFarris Urinate On The US Flag?
Wow, just wow. That’s all I have.
Sorry for the off-topic Oliver, but I keep missing the opportunity when you do Redskin posts so here it is.
did you know Todd Collin’s has a Blog?
http://toddcoll15.blogspot.com/
found out from L&GM
http://lefarkins.blogspot.com/2008/09/my-todd-collins-fetish.html
PS: The collapse of the Dollar (under Obama’s watch) means the DOW hasn’t gained any subsequent market share even with the 10K benchmark.
Uh huh–and if it’d happened under McCain’s watch you’d be jumping for joy and calling the rest of us haters
Terrorist Fist Jab ???????
Obama’s Baby Mama????????
Dems:Bad for America??????
Fox news, they ask the really important tough questions inquiring minds want to know.
What a fucking joke.
The collapse of the Dollar (under Obama’s watch)
The dollar is trading against the Euro today exactly where it traded in August 2008.
Now what was that about a collapse under Obama’s watch?
Are you opposed to the question mark tactic, Oliver?
And what the heck did these guys say? There’s no ‘clearly’ anything that anyone can tell other than the chyron question.
The dollar is trading against the Euro today exactly where it traded in August 2008.
It really should not be so easy to disarm conservative arguments. Yet here we are.
Credit for this should entirely go to Senator Jesse Helms, clearly.
Is that or is that not a question mark?
It is not. It’s a “Cavuto Mark”:
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-september-13-2006/the-question-mark
Are you opposed to the question mark tactic, Oliver?
Did Glenn Beck rape and murder a little girl in 1990? Do Republicans tend to be child molesters? Does Dennis masturbate daily to pictures of Rush Limbaugh?
Maybe we should debate whether Rush is a racist asshole. Apparently the burden of proof has not been met on that.
Yeah, but Euros are gay. Dollars are instead measured in CHUCK NORRIS POINTS.
“PS: The collapse of the Dollar (under Obama’s watch) means the DOW hasn’t gained any subsequent market share even with the 10K benchmark.”
What the hell is that even supposed to mean? The Dow is not measured in dollars – it’s points. The shares listed on the Dow are what is measured in dollars. If you are trying to say the dollar value of all shares in the Dow are less valuable than due to a falling dollar – then type that.
MSNBC’s(BSNBC’s) Countdown Keith Olbermann Is the biggest Obama kiss ass out there…Thats some one sided sh*t there! That news station is a govt puppet….CNN (communist new network) Broadcasts “Live in the the field reporting” form a F’n studio” The number one news network is Fox for a reason people!! Typical liberals on this site, Its ok to have an opinion as long as its the same as your!
Dennis, will you please remove Roger Ailes’ shlong from your ass and GET A CLUE?!
You have to excuse Farris…he was going to post “OBAMASUCKS” but he wanted to sound intelligent.
Still failed, as usual…
Oh, this is no doubt good news for John McCain AND Sarah Palin!
Larry Kudlow always credits Reagan’s tax cuts for Bill Clinton’s bull market. This is what they do
Here’s the segment, and it’s a brief one.
Cavuto: Since Obama Blames Bush for Economy, Does Bush Get Credit for Dow 10K?
Pretty much the exact opposite of what the kneejerk reaction guesses were of the peanut gallery here of what is nothing more than a question on a chyron.
Pretty much a fair question to ask if Bush should get some of the credit if Obama is going to be laying all the blame on him for what he inherited. Or one would think a fair question to put to two investment guys on a business show. Innocent enough…certainly nothing for the liberal blogs to get in a snit about, and in no way did he say Obama deserves all the blame for when it went down and Bush should get it for it going back up.
Sloppy work, peanut gallery.
Pretty much a fair question to ask if Bush should get some of the credit
It’s a ridiculous question. Patently ridiculous. But then this is Fox “News” we’re discussing here.
Obama didn’t preside over the failure of the economy, Bush did. And Obama’s policies are what has brought us back from the brink.
Dennis,
Using your logic:
I play with matches, burn my house down. I start to clean up the mess, but my family kicks me out due to my recklessness. The new guy continues to clean up my mess. But, since I started cleaning first, I should get the credit.
If I am driving the bus, and I drive it into a ditch and walk away because my shift is up, the next bus driver will call a tow truck and gets the bus pulled out of the ditch.
Who do think gets the credit for pulling the bus out of the ditch, Dennis? The guy who drove it into the ditch, or the guy who had it pulled out of the ditch?
I guess by your logic, the first driver should get the credit since he drove it into the ditch in the first place, and the second driver wouldn’t have been so heroic had not the first driver fucked it up so bad.
God you are fucking stupid.
“Or one would think a fair question to put to two investment guys on a business show. ”
And did the “investment guys” laugh their asses off?
I’d be amazed if it weren’t so predictable at this point. Republicans must just think they’ve been the victims of bad timing every time the economy tanks on their watch.
Pretty much a fair question to ask if Bush should get some of the credit if Obama is going to be laying all the blame on him for what he inherited.
False.
The banks and the investment houses almost pushed our economy to the brink. Shoring up the banks are what brought us back, and that was done starting last fall before Obama did anything. And now JP Morgan and a few other banks are making money hand over fist, but it’s in no way translating to jobs being created.
What policies specifically have brought us back from the brink besides injecting boatloads of money into the banks?
The banks and the investment houses almost pushed our economy to the brink.
Enabled by hands-off economic policies of the right, in addition to spending on things like useless war for no reason.
What policies specifically have brought us back from the brink besides injecting boatloads of money into the banks?
The economic recovery act, which has put money into people’s hands, and state and local governments.
Burn, you’re the guy who’s simplifying the most complex economic issues to hit us in our entire history with two bus drivers, a bus and a tow truck and thinking your argument has merit.
but it’s in no way translating to jobs being created.
Jobs are a lagging indicator. But you knew that already, didn’t you?
Prove how it’s false, mambo. Tell me this was the maestro’s grand scheme to have the banks making a ton of money after bailing them out with all kinds of cash and then seeing 10% unemployment and a dollar that’s falling like a rock. This is what his policies were designed to accomplish.
It’s quite amusing to see liberals place so much importance on the DOW now after completely dismissing it all through the Bush years when it was on its way to 14,000 because there weren’t enough quality manufacturing jobs then and the dollar was weak and we had record deficits.
quite amusing to see liberals place so much importance on the DOW now
Actually, I regularly compared Dow performance between Bush and Clinton because Bush did so horribly bad on it. It’s a shaky measure, but its a measure.
Dennis, weren’t you one of the ones after inauguration explaining DOOOOOM cause the market was dropping and how it was Obama’s fault? You guys try to play Calvinball and think we won’t notice. Christ.
Dennis, 6:09 pm today:
Dennis, 3:15 pm today, less than three hours earlier:
So Bush gets credit for the recovery – AND it really isn’t a recovery because the U.S. dollar has “collapsed” all the way back to 2008 levels.
Hmm. Maybe the problem with the right’s “messaging” isn’t just that they’re grasping at straws, but that they’re all grasping at different straws.
The Dow hitting the 10,000 mark means America is failing. Thanks Obama you socialist commie.
Classic from October 6, 2008:
Jim Cramer? James Glassman?
Ben Stein?
And now the uptick is all because of the brilliant Commander Bunnypants. So predictable.
What is Ol’ Bunnypants doing with himself these days? I wonder. Did he have the class to congratulate Obama on winning that Peace Prize thingy? No? Oh, that’s what he’s been up to.
Do you really think the banks and investment houses are making money the old-fashioned way now? I know a guy who covers a bank for their investment portfolio and made over a million dollars in commissions in one day investing that bank’s receipt of TARP money they took in. I know tons of other guys in the capital markets field who are all having record years from the dislocation of the markets and bid/ask spreads that you can now drive a truck through. I know hedge fund managers that are having record years too from buying the new issue taxable municipal bonds that are part of the stimulus’ Build America Bonds that are buying them in the initial offering when they are sold way too cheap for the market demand, and then flip them back to the smaller guys who couldn’t get in on the new deals. In other words, a lot of the same manipulative crap they used to get away with before, only a lot more ways to make money now. Guess who overpaid for their money…the municipalities who employed the investment banks to sell their bonds. They’re happy because they’re getting cheaper money than they used to because of the tax break they now get, but it’s still more lining the pockets of the investment houses. Manipulating market inefficiencies brought on from the prior collapse. These are the guys benefiting from the money Obama’s policies set in motion; not the little guys you think are.
Prove how it’s false, mambo.
It’s false because it’s completely illogical. Just because Obama claims to have inherited a shitty economy because of his predecessor does not entitle said predecessor to any credit whatsoever for the recovery from the shitty economic situation. It’s the equivalent of giving a rapist some credit for his victim’s mental recovery in post-rape therapy sessions.
Tell me this was the maestro’s grand scheme to have the banks making a ton of money after bailing them out with all kinds of cash
Thought the bailouts happened before Obama? You said it, remember.
a dollar that’s falling like a rock
False.
This is what his policies were designed to accomplish.
False.
It’s quite amusing to see liberals place so much importance on the DOW now after completely dismissing it all through the Bush years when it was on its way to 14,000 because there weren’t enough quality manufacturing jobs then and the dollar was weak and we had record deficits.
Don’t know that I have ever done that, Dennis. Don’t think that I have yet in this thread, certainly.
It’s quite amusing to see conservatives be so consistently wrong about absolutely everything. You ought to be embarrassed for yourself.
I’m sure every post I made will come out here on this thread but I said Obama’s posturing for the stimulus bill and talking doom and gloom were making a lot of investors very nervous then, and it was.
What were you right about, mambo? Did you predict DOW 10,000 this year coupled with 10% unemployment and 17% real unemployment and the hoorays from the liberal blogs we’re seeing here today?
Dennis, 6:09 pm today:
Dennis, 7:51 pm today:
http://www.oliverwillis.com/2009/10/13/nfl-commissioner-roger-goodell-slaps-down-rush-limbaugh/#comment-184484
What were you right about, mambo?
I’m right about conservatives being on the wrong side of almost everything under the sun.
Did you predict DOW 10,000 this year coupled with 10% unemployment and 17% real unemployment
No. I’m not an economist, and I don’t pretend to be one. Unlike you, and your myriad condemnations of Obama in the face of a reeling stock market at the time of his election and inauguration.
I am a scientist. I know logic, and I know facts. This is why I am a liberal. Do you, or any conservatives, ever stop to think about why so many with advanced degrees, so many PhDs in science and related fields, so many professors are political liberals? You might want to consider that. I’m not necessarily saying there’s a causal linkage there, but if I would put money on it.
The popularity of Fox News amongst conservatives alone is suggestive of the right lacking critical thinking skills and their inability to evaluate ideas and evidence on its merits.
I know a guy who …I know tons of other guys in the capital markets field who…I know hedge fund managers that…
Poseur Pseudo-Insider Troll knows lots of guys.
You guys try to play Calvinball and think we won’t notice.
BTW, goddamn I love Calvin and Hobbes. Actually influenced me quite a lot in my early years.
Could ya find a way to throw up a C&H picture up on a post, OW? A Calvinball one would be perfect, all things considered.
@82nd vet
I’m a vet too, but it’s been my experience that people who put that info first in their CV are generally compensating for deficient education.
Indeed, there’s no use whatsoever trying to reason with the likes of Dennis. He and his brethren who post here think they’re trying to enlighten us, but they are nothing more than out personal pinatas. With conservative shlongs firmly emplanted in their various orifices.
Comedy relief, brah.
R.I.P. Capt. Lou Albano
@Randy Brown- Capt. Lou Albano is dead?
Oh no, who will stop the girls from having fun now?
Dennis, let’s not forget that you were giving hourly DOW updates a few short months ago directly linking Obama’s performance with that of the American economy. Your stupid little idea was that the markets were going down because Obama blew his nose the wrong way or some such.
And don’t try and weasel out of it, you disingenuous loser. You know you did this. Everyone here knows you did this.
So now that the DOW is up and the Bush Recession is winding down you turn on a dime and demand that we credit Bush for this?
You’re a sad, desperate little man. And your party is doomed. Maybe a few pick-ups in the House in 2010, but be prepared for the ass-whipping of your lifetime in 2012 once Obama has really got our economy on track just like Clinton did.
Shorter Dennis:
The fact that I’m always wrong doesn’t mean you can use that to ridicule all the stupid things I’m saying RIGHT NOW.
Yes indeed, this IS the Bush Recovery – just as WW2 was the Kaiser’s War, Mozart invented rock-&-roll, & Watergate was Ike’s downfall.
Hey, keep in mind that this is the network that can’t even get a map of the Middle East right. Watching FOX try to comprehend cause-&-effect is like giving a baboon a Rubik’s Cube.
I’d be more than happy for the wingnuts to wait and pass judgment on Obama’s economic performance until he ends his second term in 2015. If the DOW is actually lower than it was today, than he will go down in history as as big a failure as one of worst, George W. Bush. I’d be happy to point that out.
Thing is, adults are back in charge now, and that’s not going to happen.
Jaim, you seem to have an self-identity problem when it comes to your penchant for calling other people losers. Remember why you left the country. Remember that you are contributing zero to the economic recovery efforts of this great country. Remember that you type these baseless screeds in a one-room apartment where your only contact with other Americans is in digital form only and mainly with people that you hate. You rarely address anyone you agree with, only those you disdain and are jealous of and with whom you want what they have. As a good exercise, close your eyes in front of a mirror and think of any of us as you mentally call us losers, and then open your eyes and honestly assess where you are in life at the age of 35 years.
You can post any quote you want to from last February as Obama was yammering and telling us that this massive stimulus bill was necessary to prevent us from going to 8% unemployment and I will back it up based on what was going on at the time and how the market was reacting. Any quote you wish. I’m not weaseling out of anything. The guy didn’t know what he was doing when he was speechifying to us and it made an lot of people nervous and wanting to just get out of all their equity holdings. That is called panic selling for the moms and pops, or in other words, capitulating. And they were doing that as Obama was telling them we needed to mortgage ours and our kids futures to save the country, of which now only a small percentage of that even has been injected into the system.
No, I didn’t. I said Cavuto asked a fair enough question and it wasn’t what Oliver portrayed it as, as usual, and that the Obama-sycophant peanut gallery jumped to the wrong conclusion, also as usual.
Once everyone here realized their error, in their embarrassment they turn their wrath to the guy who pointed it out to them. Again….as usual. And all any of you have is the usual spitballs.
“where your only contact with other Americans is in digital form only and mainly with people that you hate”
Because there aren’t any other Americans abroad teaching English or serving in the military.
My god you are a stupid person. But you’re even more of a hypocrite.
DOW 10,000 Dennis. I eagerly await further stock market updates from you over the next seven years.
Your hero, Nouriel Rubini:
You know this, you agree with him, yet you continue to play the silly sixth grade taunting game of ‘yeah, the Redskins will kick the Cowboys asses next year’. You can’t even be honest with yourself, much less anyone else.
I said Cavuto asked a fair enough question
And you were wrong. And still you refuse to admit it.
Your hero, Nouriel Rubini
Not my hero.
The guy didn’t know what he was doing when he was speechifying to us and it made an lot of people nervous and wanting to just get out of all their equity holdings.
There you go again, pretending that you know things that you really don’t. Why not stick with the commentary regarding stemming the rise in unemployment (so that it doesn’t eclipse 8%)? That’s actually a fair point, true, and doesn’t rely on you presenting speculation as fact.
Once everyone here realized their error, in their embarrassment
Not embarrassed at all, Dennis. It was a stupid question, and it remains one. You ought to be embarrassed for yourself. By the way, have you stopped snorting cocaine? I find it strange that you haven’t responded to the allegation. Also, have you heard whether Glenn Beck as spoken to the rumor about him raping and killing that little girl?
Obama was telling them we needed to mortgage ours and our kids futures to save the country
False.
You can’t even be honest with yourself, much less anyone else.
Ha. Hypocritical much?
-I wasn’t wrong to say it was a fair question. To think otherwise you would have to be an intolerant liberal, and you are.
-Nouriel Roubini is Jaim’s hero. I was addressing him.
-Pick a quoe of mine from that time period and ask me why I said what I said and I will let you know what Obama said and explain how it was making investors nervous at the time.
–Your obsession with the Glenn Beck parody rumor is psychotic, mambo. It was not a stupid question. It was wrong and typical to only show the pic of the chyron and the question and assume that he was stating that as fact, when he wasn’t. And he didn’t lay all the blame on Obama for the decline and he wasn’t giving all the credit for the run back up to Bush. Sorry, mambo, Cavuto knows more about business and the economy than you will ever know for the rest of your life. There was nothing wrong with his asking that question. Nothing. Just like it’s Oliver’s blog to blog about whatever he wants to, it’s Cavuto’s show to ask whatever questions he wants to ask his guests, too.
-Addressing both of the last two declarations you made; our country’s future has been mortgaged. It is hypocritical of you and liberal blogs to have sounded that trumpet all the while the market was going up to 14,000 and to now be whooping it up for Obama as the savior of the economy for pulling Bush’s wrecked bus out of the ditch and for the DOW getting back to 10,000 when this economy is in such a fragile state. Quite hypocritical, mambo.
A more complete picture:
http://washingtonindependent.com/63961/fox-news-talks-up-bush-recovery
Looks like “Dennis” gets his stock market analysis directly from Sean Hannity.
I wasn’t wrong to say it was a fair question.
Yes you were, for reasons I outlined above. Logical equivalent to giving a rapist credit for his victim’s post-rape mental recovery.
To think otherwise you would have to be an intolerant liberal, and you are.
False. You could just understand logic. If being logical is me being “an intolerant liberal”, then I suppose you’re right. Thanks for admitting that conservatives aren’t logical.
Pick a quoe of mine from that time period and ask me why I said what I said and I will let you know what Obama said and explain how it was making investors nervous at the time.
Not going to rummage through your garbage.
Your obsession with the Glenn Beck parody rumor is psychotic, mambo.
False. Clearly you don’t understand why I keep referencing it. But that’s fine.
and assume that he was stating that as fact, when he wasn’t.
THIS is why I continue to pound on the Beck joke. Because this is what Cavuto and Fox News does. Asks questions that are fucking ridiculous as a way of injecting nonsense into the public sphere. “A terrorist fist jab”?
Seriously, anyone who takes Fox News seriously after a question about Obama’s “terrorist fist jab” has no credibility whatsoever.
And then they can claim that they didn’t make a statement, they were just asking a question. Which is what I am doing. Did you hear that Glenn Beck raped and killed a little girl in 1990? (Just asking, not a statement of fact. A question. Legitimate, fair, and balanced.)
There was nothing wrong with his asking that question. Nothing.
False, for reasons I outline above.
Sorry, mambo, Cavuto knows more about business and the economy than you will ever know for the rest of your life.
What’s your point? Even if that’s true, and it likely is, it doesn’t mean that I’m wrong here. Total non-sequitur. Fallacious. Appeal to authority is fucking weak Dennis.
Addressing both of the last two declarations you made; our country’s future has been mortgaged.
I was referring to your comment that Obama said we needed to mortgage our future. He did no such thing. Don’t change your tune now.
It is hypocritical of you and liberal blogs to have sounded that trumpet all the while the market was going up to 14,000 and to now be whooping it up for Obama
OK, tasks for you. Find out where I was “trumpeting” shit about the stock market when it was going to 14,000. Also, more importantly, find where I am “whooping it up for Obama.” Calling me a hypocrite erroneously would be quite the slander, wouldn’t it? Asshole.
Quite hypocritical, mambo.
We’ll see.
Any quote you wish. I’m not weaseling out of anything.
No, no. Of course not. Shame on anyone who would suggest such a thing.
What’s that beeping noise? Oh, never mind. It’s just Dennis backing up.
Dennis loses. Reason wins. Just like always.
LOL,
Given the condition of our money due to the happy votebuying policies of Obama if you denominate the Dow in gold the dollar has lost 2/3s of it’s value. Bloomberg has the Dow at almost the bottom of a 12 year range. The scariest thing is most of the cheerleaders here don’t understnd what I am talking about, why it is worrysome, or what causes it. Hope and Change!
So much stupid in one person. Wrong about absolutely everything. A sad failure of a human being.
Meet Dennis!
The Dow is soaring compared to how it did under Bush. I know I’m investing in it.
I know I’m investing in it.
Famous last words.
I have some bad news for you:
http://www.balloon-juice.com/?p=28290
Stock market seems overvalued to me and other Non-Cramers.
Long-term, baby!
“if you denominate the Dow in gold”
Which literally nobody but yourself does.
if you denominate the Dow in gold
…Are you advocating the return of the Gold Standard? Because if so, I can easily draft a list of reasons why that’s stupid.
“Stock market seems overvalued to me and other Non-Cramers.”
I’d stay away too. Something’s brewing but I don’t know what it is … .
LOL,
“Are you advocating the return of the Gold Standard? Because if so, I can easily draft a list of reasons why that’s stupid.”
No, I’m not advocating a return to the gold standard but I am pointing out that the dollar is under attack, weakening, and the situation is getting worse rather than better. Obama has a projected government budget that makes Bush’s wars look cheap. I realize that many of you think he is making a grand “investment” but the rest of the globe disagrees with you. It will be interesting to see what the patron of this site does with our currency situation. He does have a track record with this sort of thing. Soro’s meddling is unlikely to do us as a nation any favors.
Mambo is a scientist? Acadamia is in worse shape than I thought. What flavor of scientist are you mambo?
Dennis,
“Remember why you left the country. Remember that you are contributing zero to the economic recovery efforts of this great country. ”
You’re quite wrong in your thinking here. By shaping young minds in Korea rather than here Jaim is making the largest contribution possible to helping this country out of a tough situation.
“the dollar is under attack”
The dollar is no weaker than it was a year ago under Bush. And it should be weak right now because we need a boost to American export sales.
Econ 101. Look into it AO.
(Interestingly, the dollar has been really strong against the Korean won. But that’s because Korea wants to keep its export market to the US healthy as well. Gotta love macroeconomics.)
Acadamia is in worse shape than I thought. What flavor of scientist are you mambo?
First off, hardy har. Second, I am an experimental psychologist.
I am pointing out that the dollar is under attack, weakening, and the situation is getting worse rather than better.
By choosing a measure that no one uses.
Soro’s meddling is unlikely to do us as a nation any favors.
Translation: Be afraid of the boogeyman! Boo!
BTW, thanks for the personal attacks guys. Attacking teachers is way classy, fuckwits.
Attacking teachers is way classy
Education is the enemy for conservatives, Jaim. You know that. All those eeeeevil liberal professors and whatnot. Plus, those scientists that continue to insist that manmade global warming is a problem, and that life originated more than 6000 years ago.
They hate me too because of this. Wear their insults as a badge of honor, for the topic of education is yet another place where conservatives are wrongheaded fuckwits.
@AO- “Obama has a projected government budget that makes Bush’s wars look cheap.”
Yea because we all know that Bush was cheap, or so he likes for people to believe when he was President.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A18876-2004Sep13?language=printer
Couldn’t agree more. It’s just funny the amount of resentment and anger aimed at me for the twin conservative sins of a) teaching for a living and b) living abroad among scary brown people(and loving it).
These guys spent a large time of their intellectual development in the proverbial dunce corner, picking their noses and breathing through their mouths. And now they play internet Tuff Guyz. It’s adorable.
Jaim, if we’re so terrible, why do you have to mis-characterize what we say?
I’ve never once resented you for teaching for a living nor simply for living abroad.
And stop feeling sorry for yourself.
“I’ve never once resented you for teaching for a living nor simply for living abroad.”
LOL.
No, you just can’t stop talking about it and checking in on my blog.
12:30 in the morning, Dennis. Haven’t you met your troll-quota for the day?
Mambo,
One of the hard sciences I see. Your unbiased observations regarding different political ideologies, mental capabilities and thought processes speaks volumes about your abilities. There is much truth in the old canard Those who can do, those who can’t teach.
One of the hard sciences I see.
Actually, yes. Experimental psychology isn’t soft science. Or do you think that uncovering the neural correlates of cognition and the learning processes that influence behavior is somehow “soft”? Do you consider Pavlov a practitioner of “soft science”?
Perhaps you were confusing my field with some other field?
Your unbiased observations regarding different political ideologies, mental capabilities and thought processes speaks volumes about your abilities.
Uh huh. Maybe you’re confused again. Being unbiased has nothing to do with favoritism of one side or another, or lack thereof. I’m a liberal – the way I became a liberal is by examination of the evidence and the study of philosophy. I think that my political ideology is a triumph of my analytical abilities. I think that true political conservatives are too narrow-minded and simple; although the majority of their logic is sound, it rests on a foundation that is rotted out.
There is much truth in the old canard Those who can do, those who can’t teach.
Proving yet again that you don’t know what you’re talking about. You disparage teachers, first off – this is reprehensible behavior. Scummy, disgusting behavior. I’d argue that teachers are important. Secondly, although I do teach, it is not my sole profession. I conduct research and publish in scientific journals. I’m a part of the scientific community, working to better our understanding of the world around us. Pretty fucking important work, I think. But feel free to dismiss it with stupid, unoriginal catch-phrases.
You’re an ignorant scumbag.
I think that true political conservatives are too narrow-minded and simple; although the majority of their logic is sound, it rests on a foundation that is rotted out.
I should add: There are also many, many people who are just illogical, stupid, racist, sexist, homophobic, ignorant, sheltered, frightened, and/or greedy as well. And in my experience, they tend to be conservative as well.
Count me out of that group, thanks.
LOL Mambo,
Methinks doth protest just a wee bit too loudly.
“You disparage teachers, first off – this is reprehensible behavior. Scummy, disgusting behavior.”
As you do conservatives.
” although the majority of their logic is sound, it rests on a foundation that is rotted out.”
I find that to be an interesting admission. Perhaps you might explain the majority logic/rotten foundation theme.
“I should add: There are also many, many people who are just illogical, stupid, racist, sexist, homophobic, ignorant, sheltered, frightened, and/or greedy as well. And in my experience, they tend to be conservative as well.”
The bell curve cuts both sides of the center probably in quite similar numbers. I’d wager I can match you 1:1 on the baser qualities of humans on both sides.
A portion of the old canard to which you take such offense has to do with the dangers of living in the ivory towers of acadamia, one is seperated from the real world where real problems have to be dealt with in real time.
“I’d argue that teachers are important.”
Indeed you are correct, good teachers are indeed important, also quite rare. It is an art not a science, credentials have little to do with it.
As you do conservatives.
Yes, because conservatives as a group do not provide an important service to society. I mock and criticize because I find their behavior and beliefs repugnant. I criticize a political ideology and those who subscribe to it – I do not criticize a profession that is important to the fabric of our society.
Rip on liberals all you like. I will likely mock you and call you an idiot. But let’s leave it in the political sphere, and not go into career paths.
I find that to be an interesting admission. Perhaps you might explain the majority logic/rotten foundation theme.
I find fiscal conservatives to be largely logical with in stressing personal responsibility and hard work as a means of getting ahead in life. It makes sense that hard work and talent should get you ahead in life. Perhaps that’s how it should be, ideally. However, I find that they do not have a reasonable conception of the impracticality of this viewpoint. It presupposes a level playing field, where everyone can compete against everyone else. And that’s simply not true. Life is more complex than that – someone born into a low-income family in the slum is statistically not as likely to succeed on the level of someone born into a high socioeconomic niche. Too much of success in life is NOT based on personal effort, but instead is just dumb luck.
Case in point – I had a conversation with my conservative uncle. I contended that he was lucky to be wealthy. He took offense, saying “I worked really hard to get to where I am.” But here’s the thing – he was born a Caucasian male into an upper-middle class family in the United States. He was also born with no genetic defects (schizophrenia, Down’s Syndrome, etc.) that would preclude his success. Also, the fact that he worked so hard is likely largely attributable to genetic and social (e.g., parenting style, childhood geography) factors that are ALSO outside his control.
Fiscal conservatives tend to either deny or discount these items. Their logic, above the basement, is totally fine; it’s just that their underlying preconceptions of the nature of the world are wrong.
I could do the same thing with social conservatives, but this post is long enough already. Plus, social conservatives piss me off more than fiscal ones and I don’t feel like spending my time on them right now.
one is seperated from the real world where real problems have to be dealt with in real time.
And this is fallacious. Buddy, I’ve got to pay bills, pay off loans, keep my car maintained, and get my work done, same as you. I don’t get paid a lot of money to do what I do; most professors don’t. Plus, I’ve got to deal with tons of bureaucracy with respect to getting funding for my research.
Hell, I don’t even have tenure yet!
So please explain to me how I don’t have problems to deal with, same as everyone else.
(this was my best effort to make a serious contribution to this conversation. hopefully you respond in kind.)
“It is an art not a science, credentials have little to do with it.”
Spoken like someone who couldn’t hack finishing college.
Mambo,
“Yes, because conservatives as a group do not provide an important service to society.”
The tension between the individual and the group, between the conservative and the liberal could not be put in more stark terms than your offhand comment. This idea of yours makes no sense what so ever. To deny the contribution and importance of roughly 1/3 of the individuals that populate this nation is ludicris.
The idea that social utopia could exist if only the playing field might be made level enough is pleasant to dream about but rather myopic and hopelessly naive. Myopic because it overlooks the damage and cost of lost opportunity, naive because it presumes a policy that underestimates the role of human nature to successful endeaver.
Your example of your uncle is another stark picture of misguided liberal philosophy. The old saying “Shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in 3 generations” comes to mind. So very often the son raised in affluence and with every opportunity cannot hold on to the successful position that his father of humble beginnings has created through his dilligence and determination.
You are quite correct to point out that we are all born with differing amounts of inherent abilities, positions, genetics, culture, and even luck. Such is life, how do you craft a solution to such a thing without the cost to the rights of the individual being much diminished. Much diminished for no reward since one will ever elevate those whose abilities or tendencies are very far to the right of the bellcurve. Fiscal conservatives don’t deny your underlying premise, they don’t believe you grasp the importance of human nature in the overall equation that would describe success and prosperity.
Indeed you do have to face the trials and tribulations in your personal life the same as anyone else. But in your professional life your contributions to society, real as they may be, are not tested everyday against the metric of the market. That is not to say that the market is the only way to measure success or ability but it is an effective gauge. An effective gauge in contrast to the misty metrics that define the hard to measure contributions that you might create in your endeavers. Your contributions might very well be worthwhile but it is hard to define the differences between such worthy work as perhaps your own and the inferior work created by those of lesser abilities. Furthermore the harshness of the market makes it much more difficult for the inferior to overshadow the superior. This in contrast to the role that politics and cronyism within and without the department play in an otherwise unmeasured definition of success.
LOL Jaim,
Spoken like one whose sole accomplishment in life was obtaining credentials without knowledge.
Goddamn, AO, you should post here more often.
Furthermore the harshness of the market makes it much more difficult for the inferior to overshadow the superior.
Success in the marketplace has very little at all to do with the inherent value of what’s being sold.
Look at the food industry.
The biggest market share goes to mass produced, mass marketed, highly processed foods that are actually less healthy and less nutritious than foods grown organically on a smaller sustainable scale.
But more people by processed foods, not because they are better as food, but because they are better as commodities, which is to say they are cheap and convenient. But as food, as nutrients, they are a complete disaster leading to rising levels of all manner of otherwise avoidable diseases.
But the superior food is far overshadowed by inferior processed commodities by the massive marketing budgets and distribution networks of the corporations that produce the processed goods.
So the market may be a harsh mistress but success in the market has little to do with whether or not what you’re buying has any actual real value.
Making a shitty product that kills people is not necessarily a detriment if it’s cheap, convenient and kills them slowly enough.
Your understanding of academia is just as equally skewed. Academics operate in a marketplace of ideas just as challenging as any other marketplace. Ever heard the phrase “Publish or perish”? This market place of ideas can be just as ruthless and cut throat as any market place for any product and academics compete with on another for jobs, funding, tenure based on their individual intellectual skills and originality or, as some put it, their cultural capital.
Whether your working in the humanities or the hard sciences, it can take years to get something published after years of research and writing. And that’s just an article in a collection of essays. Do you know how hard it is to get publishers on board for an academic publication? It’s as competitive and crowded a marketplace as any thing you can name. Poorly researched, poorly written, poorly reasoned work just doesn’t cut it. Yes, it’s a marketplace prone to trends and fads just like any other. There are plenty of examples of “processed thinking” that’s just as bad for your brain as it is processed foods, but it’s ridiculous to suggest that academics work in a worry free world where their research and ideas don’t compete directly with the work of other academics in the real world of a marketplace.
There is much truth in the old canard Those who can do, those who can’t teach.
Really, Amused? There is “much truth in the old canard”? You clearly have no idea what “canard” even means. Or maybe you have no idea what “truth” means.
Either way, you clearly couldn’t cut it as a teacher.
‘Goddamn, AO, you should post here more often.’
Dennis, wasn’t one of your first posts one that laughed at the liberals here because you thought we were brown nosing each other so much?
LOL,
While it is true I misspoke, substitute chestnut for canard, your example of food as a commodity as a failure of the marketplace is as poor as your understanding of value. Examining food as a product throughout the history of man, one will find it a commodity often of deathly scarcity at any price. Contrast that with the problems we face in America where a surplus of cheap calories available to even the members of society dependant upon the dole. What a failure compared to the high value of food in famine ravaged portions of the 3rd world.
Publish or perish is true enough but the quality of much research and the subsequent publication is as likely to illustrate garbage in and garbage out as anything else. LOL in the realm of the study of the mine think no further than Skinner’s examples of rats in a maze. Although published to great acclaim in subsequent years it was found that much of the “learning” was due to the habits of rats following each other’s scent trails. Something almost any exterminator could have told him. Again this is not to say that all research is as flawed but that the metric for accuracy is a far harder thing to successfully quantify.
To say that I or anyone of average intelligence couldn’t cut it as a teacher is to admit either intellectual dishonesty or a lack of familiarity with the modern educational system. Indeed comparing the college entrance test scores of homeschooled children to those from the public system does nothing to diminish the credentials of interested amatuer educators.
“Shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in 3 generations” comes to mind.”
I think the term refers to the grandchildren of humble beginnings, not the children as you suggest.
Contrast that with the problems we face in America where a surplus of cheap calories available to even the members of society dependant upon the dole. What a failure compared to the high value of food in famine ravaged portions of the 3rd world.
Amused, you’ve completely changed your argument. You went from lauding the market’s magically innate ability to punish inferior products while rewarding superior ones, to arguing that producing a whole crap load of inferior products is better than nothing.
Try defending your original point and then we’ll move on to the role of markets in famines.
Your comments about academic standards of evidence and proof are just ridiculous. You’re argument in a nut shell: Scientist’s theory was proven incorrect by other scientists and so the whole of the scientific method must be called into question. Doofus, that is the scientific method. Throwing in “Ha ha my exterminator is smarter than you eggheads” doesn’t really help distract from how utterly ignorant your argument is.
And, Amused, you also clearly have no idea how to use the phrase “an old chestnut” in a sentence either.
Try again, buddy.
To say that I or anyone of average intelligence couldn’t cut it as a teacher is to admit either intellectual dishonesty or a lack of familiarity with the modern educational system.
When a student asks you a question about your ramblings on the virtues of the marketplace’s ability to weed out inferior products, Amused, totally changing the subject to avoid the question would not really qualify as “education.”
I’m pretty sure you would suck as a teacher.
lol fafaroo,
It was you not I that brought up the subject of food and the powers of the market place. I merely pointed how how foolish your example was.
I merely pointed how how foolish your example was.
No you didn’t. You didn’t address the point at all.
You claimed that markets weed out inferior products.
I pointed out that the food industry makes substantial profits by selling processed foods which are inferior to healthier alternatives.
You came back and said but there so much unhealthy food we win!
Not only does that not even address my point, it actually disproves your original point.
You basically admitted that the American food market is flooded with inferior, unhealthy food.
Then you claimed that this was proof of the markets power which is the exact opposite of what you had claimed previously: that its power lay in efficiently eliminating inferior products from the market.
Amused, if you can’t recognize this basic flaw in your logic you wouldn’t last five seconds in front of a classroom.
Your students would rip your argument to shreds.
AO:
“One of the hard sciences I see. Your unbiased observations regarding different political ideologies, mental capabilities and thought processes speaks volumes about your abilities. There is much truth in the old canard Those who can do, those who can’t teach.”
And there you have it folks. Conservative anti-intellectualism on display.
AO: are you over, say, 20 years old?
Where did you graduate from college, AO?
The tension between the individual and the group, between the conservative and the liberal could not be put in more stark terms than your offhand comment. This idea of yours makes no sense what so ever. To deny the contribution and importance of roughly 1/3 of the individuals that populate this nation is ludicris.
You’re a fucking moron, AO. Read my post again and try to comprehend it. Fuck it, I will write it again: Conservatives, AS A GROUP, do not provide a valuable service to society as a profession. Just like liberals, AS A GROUP, don’t. Conflating “teachers” with “conservatives” is stupid. That’s what I was saying.
Goddamn, AO, you should post here more often.
One idiot conservative illiterate fucktard fellating another. Big surprise.
Mambo,
Parse your own words as you wish. The blindness of your bias lends little to the accuracy of your observations. Your tender sensitivity regarding your profession indicates an insecurity that all of your course bluster and cursing cannot obscure.
Living in a liberal echo chamber has crippled your ability to discern reality. The dangers of the fiscal policy we are now pursuing left unchecked will eventually engulf us all, both those who participate in the active market of goods and services and those who feed from the largess extracted and redistributed through the public sector. Traditionally inflation is how a government gets out from under debts it cannot service. An old R&B tune from the 50’s sums it up best Your cash ain’t nothing but trash. Hope and change.
Amused, you’re rambling.
“The dangers of the fiscal policy we are now pursuing left unchecked will eventually engulf us all, both those who participate in the active market of goods and services and those who feed from the largess extracted and redistributed through the public sector.”
Dick Cheney: “Deficits don’t matter.”
Fafaroo, you’re confused.
Jaim,
It matter not who says it but what it does. Often Republicans only look good compared to Democrats. That doesn’t make Cheney right, just because Obama’s excessive projected deficits make Cheney look fiscally conservative.
A portion of the old canard to which you take such offense has to do with the dangers of living in the ivory towers of acadamia, one is seperated from the real world where real problems have to be dealt with in real time.
Not all of us can be proud American Idiots such as yourself. We have to produce the technology which prevents people like you from dying of the bubonic plague.
Seriously, though, I really don’t get this. It seems to me that saying the other side is smarter than you is a poor debating strategy.
The tension between the individual and the group, between the conservative and the liberal could not be put in more stark terms than your offhand comment. This idea of yours makes no sense what so ever. To deny the contribution and importance of roughly 1/3 of the individuals that populate this nation is ludicris.
What the hell are you talking about, conservatives say the same thing about liberals all the time. Just ask Dennis.
Also, the word you’re looking for is “ludicrous”.
Deficits under white Republican president: good
Deficits under black Democratic president trying to dig us out of the Bush Recession, the worst since the 1930’s: bad
Hey Zython,
T
Thanks for the spellcheck, that’s real useful of you.
No the other side is not smarter, LOL in fact, while acadamia captures some fine minds, many of the best are in the real world “doing”.
Jaim,
You sure have a racial chip on your shoulder. Obama’s race is irrelevant. Let me make this simpler for you. deficits under a white president, bad. LARGER deficits under a black president, worse.
Me: Conservatives, AS A GROUP, do not provide a valuable service to society as a profession. Just like liberals, AS A GROUP, don’t.
AO: Parse your own words as you wish. The blindness of your bias lends little to the accuracy of your observations. Your tender sensitivity regarding your profession indicates an insecurity that all of your course bluster and cursing cannot obscure.
There’s really no point in talking to you, AO. I explain that both conservatives and liberals do not provide a valuable commodity to society as their profession, while teachers do. It is stupid to conflate my disparagement of conservatives with your disparagement of teachers. And I would have thought it stupid if you derogated construction workers, casino pit bosses, or shoe clerks instead. Dipshit.
No the other side is not smarter
False.
Mambo,
“No the other side is not smarter
False.”
Care to defend that statement. LOL you’ll be opening a can of worms that’ll bite you in the ass. Such arrogence won’t stand up to a very close examination.