Sorry, but this is hilarious.
Saturday night in downtown Salt Lake City and many people are talking about porn in Utah. David Clark Jr. of Provo said, ‘I believe that since this is the true church Satan works harder on members.’
Elder Richard G. Scott at General Conference Saturday spoke similar words about pornography. Scott said,’ This potent tool of Lucifer degrades the mind and heart and soul of any who use it.’
Some say people in Utah are vieweing porn more than any other state in the country after a study earlier this year by a Harvard economics professor. Professor Benjamin Edelman tracked subscriptions to online porn sites. He discovered that Utah is number one in the nation in online porn.
Of course, the big religious influence in Utah is the Mormon church. That state probably has the tightest combination of church-state relations as we have in the U.S., and Utah regularly votes the most Republican (62% for McCain in 2008). But the anonymity of the Internet has unmasked the fact that the loudest most pious voices out there are as debauched as the rest of us.
‘But the anonymity of the Internet has unmasked the fact that the loudest most pious voices out there are as debauched as the rest of us.’
Is anyone really surprised at this? The Christian faith in all denominations, though surely not alone in this, has been a cover for all kinds of hypocrisy and sexually ‘depraved’ behavior since its inception. I won’t even go into the history of abuse and suffering caused by the attempt to force people to deny one of the strongest and most basic human instincts; to fornicate. The day may come when the veil of propriety can finally be lifted, and a real dialogue can begin about human sexuality and the role of religion in suppressing it as well as the subsequent effects on society.
On the up side, I finally have a conversation starter with those Mormon kids in their replicant white shirts and dark slacks looking to spread ‘the word’ every summer on their missions.
With so many Mormons masturbating to pornography on-line, I’m wondering what exactly is in the Great Salt Lake?
To perhaps defend the great state of Utah, if I’m not mistaken the data collected had to do with people paying for porn through credit cards to “legit” porn providers. Which means the more savvy pervs who get their porn for free weren’t included in the study.
Exactly, Jaim. The news here is not that Mormons like porn more than other people do, or watch it more than other people do; it’s that they pay for it more than other people do. Which I think says less about their perversity than it does about their tendency to follow even the most patently unnecessary rules.
Oh, come on!
“the loudest most pious voices out there are as debauched as the rest of us.”
Fail, Oliver they are more so. Anecdotal evidence from the hotel industry suggests that hotel-room porn sales spike highest when religious conventions come to town; apparently they are hornier and more “sinful” [sic], or if one takes the radical feminist view of porn more misogynist, than the patronage at large.
I am curious as to what sort of porn they watch. Are they vanilla type ‘my god, a pair of breasts!’ sort… or are we delving into hard core water sports and the like? There really should be some sort of marketing research here. What does the young Mormon want in today’s porn?
“Anecdotal evidence from the hotel industry suggests that hotel-room porn sales spike highest when religious conventions come to town;”
Wasn’t there some dust up about in-room porn providers being overwhelmingly Mormon a couple of years ago? Wasn’t Mitt somehow implicated?
They gotta sow those seeds somewheres I guess.
Joseph Smith was getting busy with Heber Kimball’s 14 year old daughter. The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree
Am I the only one who thinks that “This potent tool of Lucifer” would be a great title for a porn movie?
Porn can never be a problem. Unless it’s Japanese or Germans an involved bodily fluid or appendeges one does not usually associate with sex.
Bruce, Radical Feminists thought Teeth, a movie in which 90% of the male cast is portrayed as rapists, was an awesome feminist horror movie. Despite the fact that thinking all men are rapists doesn’t actually make you a feminst, it just means you hate men. Not to mention the fact that it wasn’t very funny, or scary. At least it had gore. Severed penis-filled gore. I’d say radical feminists have some very serious sexuality issues.
Utah probably has even fewer porno shops than most sparsely-populated states, so in their defense that might be part of the picture. Though, do people still go to porno shops to buy mags and videos (not counting people who go there to hook up)?
The day may come when the veil of propriety can finally be lifted, and a real dialogue can begin about human sexuality and the role of religion in suppressing it as well as the subsequent effects on society.
You guys really need to get out more. Once again, I see comments that are based not on reality, but a stereotype perpetuated in large part by the media that most Christians are sexually repressed and that they never talk about sex openly because it’s “dirty.” Give me a frigging break. Walk into most evangelical Christian churches today and you’ll find there are very frank and open discussions about sex. Scroll down here through Mark Driscoll’s blog and you’ll find questions about masturbation, anal sex, etc:
http://blog.marshillchurch.org/category/christian-sex-qa-mature-content/
So please, stop spouting off about things you clearly know nothing about. Get educated a little bit about how the church deals with the issue of sex and then you’ll be ready to have a real discussion about it.
But the anonymity of the Internet has unmasked the fact that the loudest most pious voices out there are as debauched as the rest of us.
You’re right about that. And again, visit a church and you’ll see that veil lifted where people readily admit how screwed up they are. Oliver, you’re near DC. Go and check out Mark Batterson’s church. http://theaterchurch.com/
quite a lot of blathering bombast from jay. In case he forgot or overlooked the point of this post was that according to a study, Utah leads the nation in online porn. Oliver and other commentators have simply been giving their opinions on why this is the case. for all his arrogant criticism, i don’t see jay offering an opinion of his own. a couple of church websites and an anecdote about “Walk into most evangelical Christian churches today…” doesn’t make him any more informed than anyone else.
Haha, “tool” of Lucifer…
Oliver and other commentators have simply been giving their opinions on why this is the case. for all his arrogant criticism, i don’t see jay offering an opinion of his own.
Actually, I made it pretty clear that I agreed with Oliver’s assessment. Perhaps you missed it.
a couple of church websites and an anecdote about “Walk into most evangelical Christian churches today…” doesn’t make him any more informed than anyone else.
Well actually it does, especially when people are spouting off about the church supposedly avoiding “a real dialogue” about “human sexuality” which isn’t the case at all. I’m the one being anecdotal.
That last sentence should read, “I’m NOT the one being anecdotal.”
“Oliver and other commentators have simply been giving their opinions on why this is the case. for all his arrogant criticism, i don’t see jay offering an opinion of his own.”
Yes, i did miss your opinion. Why do you think Utah leads the nation in online porn? No you’re not more informed than other people in this post, you’re just more arrogant. People who think the church is avoiding a real dialogue about human sexuality have just experience on the subject as you. Their opinion is just as valid as yours.
Why do you think Utah leads the nation in online porn?
I have no idea. I read an article where after analyzing the data it shows that there isn’t much difference across states. There’s other factors that can come into play as well. http://technology.findlaw.com/articles/00006/011259.html
No you’re not more informed than other people in this post, you’re just more arrogant. People who think the church is avoiding a real dialogue about human sexuality have just experience on the subject as you. Their opinion is just as valid as yours.
Ok, but nobody is stating an opinion. Jrfunkenstein stated a supposed “fact.” A “fact” that I have read and heard about from many people over the the last 5-10 years that has no basis in reality because it’s made on the basis of what is heard largely from Christian political groups and not actual church leaders. Now if you want to call my rebuttal to that rubbish “arrogant” go right ahead. It doesn’t make me wrong.
I think the apparent penchant for porn is a result of the cognitive dissonance it takes to be a member of the Church of LDS. The book of Mormon was spawned as a con game by a charismatic country boy, and now they have to defend his ignorance on the world stage even as it becomes more and more apparent that he didn’t know what he was talking about and only wanted to con some rubes and screw their daughters.
“Jrfunkenstein stated a supposed fact.”
Where?
“A “fact” that I have read and heard about from many people over the the last 5-10 years that has no basis in reality because it’s made on the basis of what is heard largely from Christian political groups and not actual church leaders.”
Again, more arrogance and presumption from you. It’s possible that Jrfunkenstein is making his statement based on experience, you have no way of knowing.
“Now if you want to call my rebuttal to that rubbish “arrogant” go right ahead. It doesn’t make me wrong.”
It doesn’t make you right.
I get a kick out of the idea that you enjoy the Mormons’ indulgence in porn, so they can be as debauched as you are.
I am reminded of the people of Sodom and Gomorrah (BTW, Zython, these are not Japanese movie monsters) who sought to rape the daughters of Lot, because everyone in town was debauched.
Their ending was spectacular, to say the least (Gen 19:24)
Yes, because consenting adults watching Nympho Cheerleaders in Heat Part XVI is the same as raping someone’s daughter. Exactly the same.
This has been today’s edition of asinine moral equivalence.
Nympho Cheerleaders in Heat Part XVI
Is that the latest edition to your collection?
Scroll down here through Mark Driscoll’s blog and you’ll find questions about masturbation, anal sex, etc:
Asking about whether having anal sex with your wife is appropriate in the sight of God is not an example of sexual openness, Jay.
It’s an example of being open about your sexual repression.
am reminded of the people of Sodom and Gomorrah…who sought to rape the daughters of Lot
And what did Lot do, Frank?
Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”
6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.”
Asking about whether having anal sex with your wife is appropriate in the sight of God is not an example of sexual openness, Jay.
It’s an example of being open about your sexual repression.
It has nothing to do with sexual repression Fafaroo. I don’t expect you to understand because the question is coming from a biblical perspective but my point still stands.
And there’s more to the story:
30 Lot and his two daughters left Zoar and settled in the mountains, for he was afraid to stay in Zoar. He and his two daughters lived in a cave. 31 One day the older daughter said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is no man around here to lie with us, as is the custom all over the earth. 32 Let’s get our father to drink wine and then lie with him and preserve our family line through our father.”
33 That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and lay with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.
34 The next day the older daughter said to the younger, “Last night I lay with my father. Let’s get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and lie with him so we can preserve our family line through our father.” 35 So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went and lay with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.
36 So both of Lot’s daughters became pregnant by their father. 37 The older daughter had a son, and she named him Moab [g] ;
My point was not that raping someone’s daughter was the same as porn, sorry you didn’t get it.
My point was that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah wanted the visitors to be as debauched as they were. It has always struck me as odd that hypocrisy seem to be a worse crime , in liberals’ eyes, than sexual dalliance or adultery, or drug use, or prostitution , all of which liberals like to believe harm no one. But hypocricy! Now THAT’S a killer !
Quaker , thanks for the end of the story. I suppose their is some relevance to bolding verses 36 and 37?
My point was that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah wanted the visitors to be as debauched as they were.
And my point is that the defender of “virtue” in this story is completely willing to hand over his virgin daughters to the mob.
It has nothing to do with sexual repression Fafaroo.
Jay, if you feel the need to ask permission from God before engaging in consensual sexual activity, you’re sexually repressed.
Jay, if you feel the need to ask permission from God before engaging in consensual sexual activity, you’re sexually repressed.
I gotta disagree, faffer. Well, sort of disagree.
You have identified a very important point of difference between mainstream religion and some other spiritual paths–the notion of a “personal” God.
Is there a God who issues rules for how we humans interact with each other (especially when we do so using our man and lady parts)? One who judges us harshly if we ignore those rules? There are many who think so. Questioning the appropriateness of certain types of sexual behavior isn’t just “asking God’s permission.” It’s examining the morality of such behavior.
That’s not my path, but it’s not something taken lightly.
Fafaroo, whatever. Like I said, you have no understanding of the issue at hand and like I said, my point stands. It’s obvious you want to deliberately obfuscate my point. In addition, you apparently want to adhere to Freudian foolishness. So, enjoy. I’m not interested.
Meanwhile, up here in Canada, another Catholic Priest is caught with kiddie porn on his computer. Repression always finds a way around the hurdle placed in front of it by a over zealous belief system.
Like I said, you have no understanding of the issue at hand and like I said, my point stands.
What exactly is your point, Jay? I visited the link you provided and followed a link there to a site called Christian Nymphos.
All I saw there were people concerned that having consensual sexual relations might send them to hell and other people saying things like, “Well, the Bible doesn’t specifically mention butt plugs so you may be okay. But pray about it with your partner first to see what’s really behind your desire to have your wife put some kind of object up your ass.”
Yup, that’s a real healthy approach to sex.
What exactly is your point, Jay?
You missed it. That’s your problem and not mine to explain it to you because you’re obtuse or are being deliberately obtuse for whatever reason.
All I saw there were people concerned that having consensual sexual relations might send them to hell
Oh so that’s ALL you saw there? Funny, I didn’t click the link before but did now and that’s not ALL I saw. I saw people asking questions about sex within a BIBLICAL CONTEXT and many people (LIKE YOURSELF) who don’t understand (and apparently want to have no understanding as you’d rather just believe Christ follower are a bunch of sexually repressed rubes because they dare to inquire about these things) such issues are going to say idiotic things like, “Yup, that’s a real healthy approach to sex.”
For crying out loud, the entire site blows away the contention that Christ followers don’t want to have “real dialogue about human sexuality” (which was my POINT btw. Get it now??) and yet somehow in your never ending display of the use of pretzel logic, you somehow turn it into nothing but a display of sexual repression. Stunning. Absolutely stunning.
I saw people asking questions about sex within a BIBLICAL CONTEXT
Just what part of “Jesus hates FAGS!!!” is so hard to understand? Sheesh.
I saw people asking questions about sex within a BIBLICAL CONTEXT …
Would you care to explain what sex within a BIBLICAL CONTEXT even means, Jay? Is it some kind of fetish?
Oh, and this is just so enlightened and open:
Jay, if sex in a Biblical context means having to explain to your wife that she’ll have to have sex with you at 4am because you’re not sure if your nocturnal emissions are normal or caused by the Devil, that’s pretty fucking weird.
http://blog.marshillchurch.org/2008/12/02/question-24-is-it-a-sin-to-have-a-wet-dream/
(Christ follower are a bunch of sexually repressed rubes because they dare to inquire about these things)
Jay, let me hip you to something: If you’re at all concerned that nocturnal emissions might be a sin, you’re either 14 years old or a sexually repressed rube. Okay?
Jay, if sex in a Biblical context means having to explain to your wife that she’ll have to have sex with you at 4am because you’re not sure if your nocturnal emissions are normal or caused by the Devil, that’s pretty fucking weird.
Yeah, but in the Big Picture, no weirder than the rest of Organized Religion (i.e., cults. And some are objectively weirder than others, mm-kay?)
If you’re at all concerned that nocturnal emissions might be a sin, you’re either 14 years old or a sexually repressed rube. Okay?
Fourteen year olds and sexually repressed rubes deserve to get answers somewhere, don’t they? In this case, it happens to be a church based web site.
Fourteen year olds and sexually repressed rubes deserve to get answers somewhere, don’t they?
Yes, they do, Quaker. But they deserve to get answers that don’t leave them in the dark, in a permanent state of arrested development and dependence.
The answer given to this question does exactly that: “For some men it’s normal but for others, who knows, could be the Devil’s work!”
Oh and if you have a sexual dream about your wife, God wants you to wake her up and have sex with her, regardless of the hour or her interest.
Awesome!
“I saw people asking questions about sex within a BIBLICAL CONTEXT …”
It generally means that your wife HAS to have sex with you, no matter what.
“Am I the only one who thinks that “This potent tool of Lucifer” would be a great title for a porn movie?” -Dennis
Normally I hate everything you post, but that was absolutely spot on brilliant Dennis. If I had been drinking anything I would need a new laptop.
Wait, wait, wait…..Doesn’t straight porn make you gay? So the Mormon church is a bunch of gay people? LOL
Is that the latest edition to your collection?
Well to appreciate the subtleties of XVI you have to be familiar with 1-16, hehehe
The answer given to this question does exactly that: “For some men it’s normal but for others, who knows, could be the Devil’s work!”
Oh and if you have a sexual dream about your wife, God wants you to wake her up and have sex with her, regardless of the hour or her interest.
Well, that’s casting things in the worst possible light, isn’t it?
I’d say the answer runs more along the lines of “If you’re not spending a lot of time entertaining lustful thoughts during the day, don’t worry about it. If you’re having hot dreams about your wife, talk to her about them. She might want to help you out with that.”
Encouraging open conversation between spouses! Isn’t that what you said was needed?
Encouraging open conversation between spouses! Isn’t that what you said was needed?
Quaker, that would be a good idea but that’s clearly not what’s being advocated. The response characterizes wet dreams as a problem that needs to be solved or cured.
So it doesn’t encourage a “conversation” between spouses. It actually says that the problem and the solution — more sex — needs to be EXPLAINED to the wife. No where does it advise talking about the content of the dreams with your wife.
At the same time, there is no verifiable linkage between “lustful thoughts during the day” and the frequency of wet dreams.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocturnal_emission
Wet dream are perfectly normal for all men (and women can have them too). But the response can’t simply acknowledge that. It says that wet dreams are normal for “some” men. Really? That’s kind of fucked up isn’t it?
Wouldn’t it have been better to start the response by telling the person: “It’s perfectly normal for ALL men. Don’t worry about it but if you are worried, go see your doctor?”
That’s the actual truth of the matter and the rest is just nonsense. Utter nonsense.
who sought to rape the daughters of Lot, because everyone in town was debauched.
No they didn’t, they sought to rape Lot’s guests (the angels), and Lot was the one who offered his daughters.
A summary.
faffer, what set off this exchange was this comment from Jay:
And he’s right. You may not agree with what these examples of Christians have to say about sex. Some of them believe in a judgmental God who proscribes some sexual activities. But they do discuss it openly.
a stereotype perpetuated in large part by the media that most Christians are sexually repressed and that they never talk about sex openly because it’s “dirty.”
Almost all of the questions at the site jay linked to are some form of “Is this okay to do” or “Is that okay to do.”
So almost everyone who asks these questions is proceeding from the fear that their sexual desires are, in fact, “dirty.”
At a site linked to from the one Jay noted, Christian Nymphos, one of the blog writers gives a lengthy explanation about why anal sex with one’s wife is not forbidden by the Bible. The first comment on that post is from a guy asking whether it’s “okay” for his wife to use anal sex toys on him.
The message at all these sites is clearly that some things are “okay” with God but other things might not be, so check with us or your pastor about everything if you want to be safe.
These are not the terms within which an open, honest discussion about human sexuality can take place. Like I said in my first comment, talking openly about the Bible’s take on anal sex is not really talking openly about anal sex. It’s talking openly about a fear of unsanctioned sexual behavior.
At Christian Nymphos they seem to talk a lot about “godly sensuality.” How is “godly sensuality” different from plain old “sensuality”?
It’s like these people have converted their religious faith itself into a fetish.
And just for the record, almost everything I read those sites, in fact, everything I read, was related to sex within marriage.
What about sex outside of marriage? I guess that’s just obviously “dirty,” right?
Thank you for the correction , which was already supplied by Quaker. First time you were ever right. Welcome to the blog.
I think the reason Utah and the red states in general lead the blue states in porn consumption is due to the fact that conservatives have no imagination.
‘So please, stop spouting off about things you clearly know nothing about. Get educated a little bit about how the church deals with the issue of sex and then you’ll be ready to have a real discussion about it.’
Please. ‘The Church,’ presumably your church, deals with sex the same way it deals with everything else it wants to control, by making people feel guilty and perverse about it, particularly if it doesn’t pertain to procreation. Don’t even begin to lecture me on the values of sexual openness and tolerance as preached by the Christian faith, which has been a cover for the most vile acts of depravity for centuries. The very idea in this day and age of continuing to rail against Homosexuality for example, is a clear indicator of just how advanced the church and its teachings are regarding a vast population of human beings whose only crime is to want to be treated as equals, but who instead are vilified by an anachronistic viewpoint that espouses hate over acceptance. OW’s post clearly exposes the inherent hypocrisy surrounding
religious faith in general, and Christian faith in particular, when it comes to sexuality and the human condition. Believe whatever you want, but pretending people who disagree with your religious vision of the world are simply uninformed only projects your slanted viewpoint and makes you look petulant.
‘It has always struck me as odd that hypocrisy seem to be a worse crime , in liberals’ eyes, than sexual dalliance or adultery, or drug use, or prostitution , all of which liberals like to believe harm no one. But hypocricy! Now THAT’S a killer!’
Not too much of a stretch there.
It has always struck me as odd that people who cling to fairy tales and mythology long to be taken seriously when they call on everyone to lay down and worship as they see fit solely because they have a ingrained need to be told what to do.
‘I saw people asking questions about sex within a BIBLICAL CONTEXT…’
How do you account to for people having sex without a biblical context? Are they doing it wrong without the Bible’s guidance?
It has always struck me as odd that hypocrisy seem to be a worse crime , in liberals’ eyes, than sexual dalliance or adultery, or drug use, or prostitution , all of which liberals like to believe harm no one. But hypocricy! Now THAT’S a killer !
Yeah! I mean, it’s not like there’s anything in the Bible condemning bearing false witness.
I’ve been to Utah. This study does not surprise me one bit. The simple explanation is that all that repressed energy has to go someplace, so why not lust in private, right?
Now regarding Lot (the mythological character in that book of mythology), I have no idea what criteria god used to make Lot a righteous man. Blind obedience?
Right, Zython: Run to the Bible for a condemnation of hypocricy.
Abortion, substance abuse, prostitution, gambling — not so much.
Abortion
Prostitution
But hey, maybe Conservapedia’s upcoming translation of the Bible will suit you better.
“she gives birth prematurely” Nothing about abortion there, Skippy
“If a man sells his daughter as a servant”
That’s servant, Skippy, not prostitute.
And, as far as what liberals think about the Bible, you have demonstrated once again, that they don’t know squat.
The appropriate verses regarding abortion are in Psalm 139:13-16
Hypocrisy isn’t the worst sin, but it’s a great reason to hate people. Mormons run around pissing in everyones face, interfering in our political process and ranting and raving about how awesome and pure they are and how much everyone else sucks. OF course we’re going to find it hilarious and mock them when it turns out that they are BS liars and they like watching people fuck as much as the rest of us.
If they spent pretended to hate Bannanas, never made a big deal out of it, and then were found having a secret banana bacchanalia, nobody would give a fuck. It’s not the hypocrisy, it’s the way they’ve gone out of their way to pretend to be superior to other people when it comes to willpower and all the sick shit they’ve used that “superiority” to get away with. From child-fucking to hating gay people.
From child-fucking to hating gay people.
Good thing you didn’t resort to a sweeping negative stereotype — it would have totally destroyed your credibility.
Heh.