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You Lie? Not In The British Parliament

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I see a lot of commentary that compares Joe Wilson’s ‘You Lie!’ outburst with the ruckus that often happens in the House of Commons. But one thing you are not allowed to shout in the Commons is that another speaker is a liar. A lot of circumlocutions evolved to bypass this – ‘terminological inexactitude’ is my favorite (Churchill, of course) – but the ban is for a reason. Once the opposition starts yelling ‘You lie!’ they have essentially abandoned the deliberative process, by questioning the good faith of a speaker. Without an assumption of good faith or a factual rebuttal, just calling someone a liar abolishes the integrity of the debating process. It ends a conversation. And parliament is about conversation.

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44 Responses to “You Lie? Not In The British Parliament”

  1. Susan says:

    Excellent information. Way to go, Oliver.

  2. Jaim says:

    It’s precious how the GOP nutters spend years demonizing the supposedly socialist hellholes of Europe then turn on a dime and claim our government should be more like theirs.

    What a pack of racist clowns.

  3. canuckistan says:

    The Canadian system is modelled on the UK’s, and similar rules of protocol apply. Debates and question period are usually very raucus, with MPs pounding on desks, shouting interlocutions, laughing haranguing etc. However, something that Mr. Wilson did would cause the Speaker to pause the proceedings and ask Mr. Wilson to apologize. If he did not, he would be censured and removed. You cannot insult other members, though you are welcome to emote and are permitted low grade heckling. Cross the line into insults, and you’re outta there.

    It’s kinda fun, really.

    Also, the other thing is that the Prime Minster is normally present for most sittings of the house, so he is there to answer questions as a matter of routine. There is no distance between the legislative chamber and the executive. The executive is knee deep, all the time.

  4. jr says:

    Olbermann tore Wilson a new one tonight

  5. canuckistan says:

    Also, why the hate for our health care system? It’s not bad. Not perfect, but really, no one who gets sick goes broke, you can go to the doctor you want, plus we have yet to euthanize anyone to save money!

  6. AdviCZAR says:

    Meh, sometimes the truth hurts

  7. MrGreyGhost says:

    “Olbermann tore Wilson a new one tonight”

    People still watch Olbermann?

  8. Indeed says:

    People still watch Olbermann?

    Thanks to the magic of Teh Internets, anyone can:

    http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/countdown-special-comment-about-shout-you

  9. canadian bacon says:

    “Olbermann tore Wilson a new one tonight”

    So now he has three?

  10. canadian bacon says:

    The Brits also have hate speech legislation!!

  11. Wilfredo says:

    See, I knew there was a lot of grandstanding in Parliament, but I wasn’t sure if it was to the extent of calling the PM a liar. Good to know.

  12. Dennis says:

    Mr. Wilson, sir, when you’ve been lectured on political decorum by the likes of Keith Olbermann and Oliver , you know you should really take it to heart.

  13. Wilbur says:

    Mr. Wilson, sir, when you earn the privilege of being defended by Dennis, you should know that you are a member of a rarified and distinctive group.

  14. Dennis says:

    He actually used to do caffeine pills, Wilbur.

    I can’t defend him any longer.

    I think I’m beginning to understand your outrage.

  15. Indeed says:

    Perhaps the caffeine pills explain South Carolina Republican Joe Wilson’s opposition to “race mixing” (can’t help but wonder if he also feels that “race mixing” is “communist” as his ideological brethren from the 1950’s apparently believed); or his insistence that to suggest that the U.S. ever supported Saddam Hussein is “un-American;” or his a membership in “an organization teeming with white supremecists and racists,” a group which once “defended the Ku Klux Klan, and argued that the United States was created “for white people,” and complained that “when a Negro has learned to read he ceases to work.” ”

    Must be the caffeine pills. Ergo, I choose to mock the outrage of Teh Left and implicitly defend South Carolina Republican Joe Wilson. He just can’t help himself.

  16. Dennis says:

    Indeed/ Mister ed is now an advocate for guilt by association.

    Against it before he was for it, but life is complicated, ya know.

  17. Indeed says:

    Adkisson, a former private in the United States Army from 1974 to 1977, says that he was motivated by hatred of Democrats. liberals, African Americans and homosexuals .[7][1][8] According to a sworn affidavit by one of the officers who interviewed Adkisson on July 27, 2008:[2]
    “ During the interview Adkisson stated that he had targeted the church because of its liberal teachings and his belief that all liberals should be killed because they were ruining the country, and that he felt that the Democrats had tied his country’s hands in the war on terror and they had ruined every institution in America with the aid of major media outlets. Adkisson made statements that because he could not get to the leaders of the liberal movement that he would then target those that had voted them into office. Adkisson stated that he had held these beliefs for about the last ten years. ”

    Additionally, one of Adkisson’s former wives had been a member (in the 1990s) of the church where the attack occurred.[9]

    Adkisson’s manifesto[10] also cited the inability to find a job, and that his food stamps were being cut. His manifesto stated that he intended to keep shooting until police arrived and expected to be killed by police. Adkisson had a waist satchel with more ammunition, totaling 76 shells of #4 shot.

    The following books were found in Adkisson’s home during a police search:[8]

    * Liberalism is a Mental Disorder by radio talk show host Michael Savage
    * Let Freedom Ring: Winning the War of Liberty over Liberalism by talk show host Sean Hannity
    * The O’Reilly Factor: The Good, the Bad, and the Completely Ridiculous in American Life by television talk show host Bill O’Reilly

    In his manifesto, Adkisson also included the Democratic members of the House and Senate,[10] and the 100 People Who Are Screwing Up America [10] of Bernard Goldberg in his list of wished-for targets.

    I heard from some good and decent Americans that Obama’s a Communist and as Socialist and is like Hitler and Stalin and he’s destroying Our Country and he Hates America and is a Racist.

  18. Ron says:

    “Indeed/ Mister ed is now an advocate for guilt by association.

    Against it before he was for it, but life is complicated, ya know.”

    Translation: I’m getting killed over here with facts that are indefensible so I’m going to deflect and project my way out of this one because certainly, this Wilson character is my type of white trash good ole boy but I refuse to be confronted with his questionable past.

  19. Dennis says:

    I’m getting killed over here with facts…
    –Ron

    Oh yes, Ron. ‘Socks’ Indeed/ Mister ed has three major themes to his whole political repertoire; racism charges, eliminationist conspiracy theories, and Rush Limbaugh urban legends, all of which he trots out from his Favorites page when he can think of nothing else. That’s hardly ‘getting killed with facts’, entertaining as much as it must be for you.

  20. Dennis says:

    Adkisson, a former private in the United States Army from 1974 to 1977…..yada yada yada.
    -Sockpuppet ed

    Anti-abortion activist shot in front of Owosso High School
    ————

    Posted by llortamai on 09/11/09 at 10:21AM

    Kill the zealot, kill the zealot, kill the zealot!

  21. Indeed says:

    Some facts, however inconvenient to Team Dittohead, are too important to blow off with willful ignorance.

  22. Crusty Dem says:

    What’s amusing about this is that if GWB had been called a liar during a formal speech to a joint session, you would’ve needed a fire hose to wash the righteous rage off of Dennis/Jay/Jay Tea/etc.

    Frankly, while I find Wilson’s behavior generally unacceptable, I’m more concerned about how out of touch he is to think Obama was actually lying. I’d like to believe this is more of a publicity stunt than genuine ignorant outrage, but given the intelligence of the average right-wing lunatic, that’s unlikely..

  23. Dennis says:

    Left wing eliminationists, Indeed/ Mister ed.

    Go to town.

  24. Quaker in a Basement says:

    Not even going to wait to find out who shot him, Dennis?

  25. Dennis says:

    I just wanted to hear Mister ed’s analysis, Quibbie. Being his favorite topic and all.

  26. Wilfredo says:

    Wow, there’s even opposition in the explanation of a simple rule. That’s pretty petty, Dennis. I don’t know you at all, but for some reason, I think you’re scraping the bottom of the barrel here.
    Ugh, I don’t even want to read the 9/11 post if it’s anything like this in the comments.

  27. Ron says:

    Wrong Dennis

    It’s entertaining watching you spinning into relms of irrelavancy with your responses cause in your attempts to defend the indefensible, you only deflect. Brilliant performance btw.

  28. Quaker in a Basement says:

    So what about Wilson and his hollering during the speech, Dennis? Right or wrong?

  29. Dennis says:

    It was wrong. He said so, apologized to Obama, and apology accepted.

    End of story, Quibbie.

    One would think. Apparently, one would be wrong.

  30. Quaker in a Basement says:

    One would think. Apparently, one would be wrong.

    Couple of more days, tops.

  31. Dennis says:

    So….ride the tired horse till she drops? Seems to be a more popular topic here than Obama’s speech. Certainly there’s more passion.

  32. Duros62 says:

    racism charges, eliminationist conspiracy theories, and Rush Limbaugh urban legends,

    Still whistling past the graveyard, I see.

    I’d like to believe this is more of a publicity stunt than genuine ignorant outrage,

    Well, it certainly is good publicity for Wilson’s opponent, that’s for sure.

  33. Quaker in a Basement says:

    So….ride the tired horse till she drops?

    You think we’d ever hear the last of it if say, Cynthia McKinney did this during a Bush speech? Haw!

  34. Duros62 says:

    I just wanted to hear Mister ed’s analysis, Quibbie. Being his favorite topic and all.

    Analysis on a subject where we have almost zero facts? Good call.
    You really have to be careful when QiaB asks you something, Dennis. 9x out of 10, he already knows the answer.

  35. Dennis says:

    You think we’d ever hear the last of it if say, Cynthia McKinney did this during a Bush speech? Haw!
    –Quibbie

    That would have to presuppose that she’d apologize, wouldn’t it?

    Haw.

  36. Dennis says:

    9x out of 10, he already knows the answer.

    I’m well aware of his style, Duros. And I told him I was looking for Mister ed’s analysis in particular. Go back to the Saturday of the Poplawski murders to see how long he waited to start with his analysis and trotted out his saved to hard-drive Jim Adkisson quotes.

  37. freD says:

    Congressman Wilson is coming across as being dumber than the volleyball. No wonder the Brits don’t seem to think too highly about our “Get a brain, morans..Is our children learning?..The phony soldiers..He’s a uh-arab..Heil Hitler..You lie…” school of politics.

  38. Quaker in a Basement says:

    That would have to presuppose that she’d apologize, wouldn’t it?

    When has that ever mattered to the outrage junkies on the right?

  39. Indeed says:

    Murder bad. Tacitly endorsing barely (if at all) veiled supporters of murder also bad. Also.

    Sorry. Thought I was already on The Record.

    Schmidt? Also.

  40. Duros62 says:

    Sorry, somebody clue me in to the whole Scmidt thingy. Thanx.

    Also. False Equivalence: You’re soaking in it.

    Awesome. TFJ.

  41. Indeed says:

    Here.

    Here.

    and elsewhere.

  42. Quaker in a Basement says:

    D, the other day OW posted an item on the videotape catching Jean Schmidt agreeing with one of her birther constituents that Obama is not eligible to be President.

    On the second comment in the thread, Dennis pulled a Look Over There. He was given 11 separate invitations to make an on-topic comment.

    I bet you can’t guess how that turned out.