Damn You Barack Obama, Again
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I swear man. Every time. Like, every single time. They pile on they write him off and then he does his thing and gives a great speech that hits the points just about right. They said he was throwing the public option overboard, then he put 7 paragraphs of it in the speech. They said he was going to give his liberal base the cold shoulder, then he smacked the GOP around. They said he wasn’t emotional enough, then talked about Ted Kennedy, average Americans and the moral urgency of health care reform.
Damn you Barack Obama for bringing honor back to the presidency.
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© 2000-2011 Oliver Willis
He really hit all the major points tonight. Basically forcing the Republicans to deal or call him a liar (which Joe Wilson classlessly did!).
It was a masterful use of The Bully Pulpit.
Oliver can you post that “everybody chill, I got this” pic again? I needed a reminder too.
Oliver,
You made good points but don’t pretend that he didn’t need the pressure. If the Liberals didn’t scream there was no way he wouldn’t have put that much emphasis on the public option.
Bill Clinton made the point that if you don’t have a screaming left progressive legislation won’t happen. Personally, I believe the liberals need to scream more so that they become the dominant voice and not the GOP.
I say more screaming liberals. At least they try to talk about actual policy initiatives instead of teh socializzm.
Keep that pic handy, OW. I got a feelin’ it’s going to come in handy over the next 7.5.
He hit it out the park. He made this firmly a moral issue, quieted the bed-wetting crowd, and put this into its proper context.
Yeah, Oliver. It was a nice speech but it left way too much wiggle room for co-ops and triggers. And this whole thing about mandatory insurance is raising a red flag for me. Especially after hearing about Max Baucus’s plan out of Finance.
So, yeah. Nice speech but still…
“we’ll pretend Charles Boustany isn’t a birther that’s been sued 3 times for malpractice and tried to buy a lordship”-cable news
Don’t forget, wingnuts: To criticize Obama is to undermine the Commander-in-Chief in a time of war. That’s seditious; if not treasonous. Remember?
He blew their knee caps of with his speech. I swear I heard them popping like the broom weeds in my garden.
Here, here…
The President pissed off a lot of wingers tonight. I’m bound to hear about this at work tomorrow. LOL!
@Chris, yes he did need the pressure and I’m glad it was applied.
Thanks for the Pic OW.
I think this proves beyond a doubt that Obama is metaphorically like the shark that needs to keep moving forward in order to survive. What I mean is that once he was elected he settled in and, IMO, got a little too comfy. He honestly believed that he could work with the GOP on some things, not realizing that Chairman Limbaugh really is their leader, and if Obama found a cure for cancer they would criticize him for it.
Nicely done Mr. President, but realize that you need to keep swinging. Play offense. Don’t make deals with the party of Limbaugh, Beck, and Coulter. Continue to kick their mother-loving asses with your competence, your decency, and your charisma.
And don’t slow down, even for a moment, because the only thing the GOP wants is to try and derail the succesful presidency of a black man. It’s not like they’ve actually offered any real ideas on health-care. They simply don’t do ideas any more, just attacks.
The GOP must lose and lose and lose until they wake the hell up to the damage they’ve done their own cause with this nonsense.
@Richard Jensen
Look, this is as good as it’s going to get unless the Progressives hold firm. Obama made the case that the Public Option should be there. Progressives need to step up to the plate and strenthen it as much as possible.
Obama is the leader here but the progressive causus must also step up to the plate and work from there. Pretending that Obama must do all of the heavy lifting is just silly.
I hope that the Progressives take the opening Obama gave them and strenthen the bills some more instead of do what you are doing here and chastize Obama for getting them this far.
And by the way, where is Dennis, Jay Tea, and the others calling this the ‘Heil Hitler’ speech?
He used the word “liberalism” in the speech and it had a positive connotation. When was the last time you heard a president use that word in an important speech?
“And by the way, where is Dennis, Jay Tea, and the others calling this the ‘Heil Hitler’ speech?”
Sucking scrot.
And by the way, where is Dennis, Jay Tea, and the others calling this the ‘Heil Hitler’ speech?
Scraping massive amounts of fecal matter from their pock-marked asses, I presume.
“And by the way, where is Dennis, Jay Tea, and the others calling this the ‘Heil Hitler’ speech?”
Don’t count them out just yet, they’re diligently collecting their talking points.
Wonderful. He delivered a great speech.
Problem is, he cannot deliver on his promises.
Jim Geraghty wrote about it:
Obama promised his plan “will keep everything the same for those who have health insurance through their jobs, Medicare, Medicaid, or the VA; mandate coverage of pre-existing conditions; ban caps on coverage; mandate coverage of routine checkups and preventive care, like mammograms and colonoscopies; offer health insurance to 30 million uninsured; provide tax credits for small businesses; painlessly mandate coverage for the young healthy uninsured; provide hardship waivers; provide choice and competition; keep insurance companies honest; avoid taxpayer subsidies for public option plans; keep out illegal immigrants; not pay for abortions; and not deny care to the elderly because of cost-benefit analyses, all while not adding one dime to our deficits – either now or in the future.”
He promises all this, says it won’t increase the deficit and people are wetting their pants over what Joe Wilson said?
Somebody let me know when REALITY sets back in.
Wingnuts are basically immobilized until one of their sanctioned leaders comes up with talking points.
He pulled down the Republican diapers and turned those rear-ends red.
I’m sorry to correct you Jay but the President didn’t make any promises. You must have been watching another speech.
“And by the way, where is Dennis, Jay Tea, and the others calling this the ‘Heil Hitler’ speech?”
Asking their mommies to run to the store for more diapers, Cheetohs, and bullets.
Wow. Only 1 troll comment on an Oliver thread 3 hours after the speech ended. That’s confirmation of a knockout punch tonight (or at least a standing 8 count).
“Somebody let me know when REALITY sets back in.”
There’s no reality without dreaming.
See what you guys did? You convoked one of them!
I bet there’s a lot of long faces at Fox News tonight.
Problem is, he cannot deliver on his promises.
Actually, he can.
The health care system we have today costs twice as much per person than the system in Canada. It costs three times as much per person than the system in Japan. The system we have is wasteful.
I don’t recall Mr. Obama saying the personal mandate would be painless for the young and healthy who currently opt out. Under this proposal, those folks will either buy in or pay a tax penalty. That’s one source of funds to pay for the proposal.
He also proposes levying a fee on “Cadillac” health insurance plans. (Call it a tax if you like. I won’t argue the point.) That’s another source of funds.
He proposes to cut Medicare Plan B subsidies to insurers. When Plan B subsidies were first implemented, the idea was that after private insurers got ramped up, the power of the free market would allow them to provide coverage at lower cost than government provided Medicare. Right now, the subsidies are going straight to the insurer’s bottom line. That’s a third source of funds.
Our current system is inefficient at pooling risk because an intervening party–insurance companies–takes as much as 20 percent of the money we spend on health care. In addition, everyone who currently pays into the risk pool covers care for the “young and healthy” who end up in the emergency room without insurance.
Now let’s take one more look at Jay’s list:
will keep everything the same for those who have health insurance–this costs nothing
mandate coverage of pre-existing conditions; ban caps on coverage;–these will add to the cost of covering sick people. Bringing more people (read: “the young and healthy”) into the system will offset some or all of the increased cost;
mandate coverage of routine checkups and preventive care–insurers already do this.
offer health insurance to 30 million uninsured–some of whom will pay premiums
provide tax credits for small businesses–this might be the costliest part of the proposal; Go nuts criticizing tax cuts.
provide hardship waivers–once again, adding more participants–healthy participants–into the risk pool makes this possible.
provide choice and competition; keep insurance companies honest–now you’re just padding the list. These aren’t costs.
avoid taxpayer subsidies for public option plans–he proposes writing that into the law.
keep out illegal immigrants–not a cost; written into the law.
not pay for abortions–he said, “No taxpayer funds,” not “No abortions.” He’s weaseling here. At least, he better be.
not deny care to the elderly because of cost-benefit analyses–just can’t let go of the “death panels” can you?
all while not adding one dime to our deficits – either now or in the future–that’s what he said.
Almost forgot: Geraghty is a clown.
Of course Geraghty doesn’t believe Obama and to a further extent, the federal government can do it. He and his ilk don’t believe the government can do anything except bomb brown people and give tax cuts to rich people.
“Almost forgot: Geraghty is a clown.”
Wasn’t Geragthy one of the dense wingers echoing the “Iraq war will pay for itself” lie?
Basement, honestly, do you really think you can reach someone like Jay and his lot with facts?
honestly, do you really think you can reach someone like Jay and his lot with facts
Certainly not. It’s great sport, though.
@Basement – Showoff!
Gotta warn you, Quaker, you’re making me see mega mancrush starbursts.
Shorter Jim Geraghty: Our health care system may not cover everbody, but at least it’s the most expensive in the world. So expensive, in fact, that anything we do to change it will cost more money.
Give it a rest libs.
Your celebrity president works his magic and all you stand drooling like idiots, once again drinking the kool-aid.
I won’t argue, most of you lack reality.
Its a matter of principle.
How can you provide more services with same or less funding – YOU CANT, DONT BOTHER TRYING TO EXPLAIN, PLZ SEE PRIOR COMMENT ON LACKING REALITY
How can you justify making someone else pay for your healthcare – YOU CANT, YES YES DEMONIZE THE RICH, NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM WORKED FOR IT, THEY DONT ALREADY SHOULDER THE MAJORITY OF THE TAX BURDEN THATS A DOWNRIGHT LIE, besides when they leave the country due to unfair taxation there’s always the middle class
Am seriously starting to beleive most of you liberals are communists in hiding or just too stupid to realize who you’re working for.
Sarah Palin’s ghostwriter…
“I got nothen’ folks, so I am going to point to a few tidbits here and there about Obama’s advisor, ‘government bureaucrats’, and tort reform we will never vote for.”
Somebody let me know when REALITY sets back in.
People who buy “we shall be greeted as liberators” don’t get to spout this kinda claptrap unchallenged.
“How can you justify making someone else pay for your healthcare”
So I take it you’re opposed to Medicare, Medicaid, and the entire VA health system?
Interesting. This puts you squarely in with about less than one percent of the American populace. So please don’t lecture us about “reality.”
@mike
Your arguements are almost laughable:
Definition of efficiency:
being effective without wasting time or effort or expense.
Sooooo…
Current healthcare system + efficiency = more better healthcare for more people.
(Bad grammer added to make mike understand)
US Economy + more better healthcare = more productive workers
more productive workers = more money for rich people you will never know
Therefore:
(this is a hard one for you mike, it requires something called a logic operation)
Tax rich people = money for healthcare = more productive workers = better US economy = more money for rich people.
Problem is, he cannot deliver on his promises.
Jay, look, I would understand if you were talking about torture or gay rights. I would argue that you don’t have the moral authority to criticize Obama on these issues, but you would at least have a point. But you’re saying he’s breaking promises he hasn’t even had a chance to break yet. The health care bill hasn’t even passed yet. You’re not clairvoyant, and even if you were, the last 8 years have proven your abilities at premonition to be lousy at best.
How can you justify making someone else pay for your healthcare
Funny I thought the same thing about roads, water, police departments, fire protection, etc? How can you assholes justify making the rest of us pay that for you? Or does that “personal responsibility” thing only go so far (and apply to “certain people”)
I don’t recall Mr. Obama saying the personal mandate would be painless for the young and healthy who currently opt out. Under this proposal, those folks will either buy in or pay a tax penalty.
Of course, that would require renigging on his promise not to raise taxes on the bottom 95% of Americans. So was he lying then or is he lying now?
I don’t see what the hullaballoo is all about: Barack Obama read a teleprompter effectivly. In other news, the sun rose in the east. But speechmaking is not governing, and Obama hasn’t yet shown he’s capable of that part of the equation.
Save Farris: “But speechmaking is not governing…”
Governing: bypassing democratic processes, financing elective wars on the cuff, firing dissenters, stuffing the administration with toadies, instituting personal loyalty tests in independent departments of the executive branch, stuffing ballot boxes, etc. etc. etc.
Talking heads on MSNBC this morning (I know, I’m a masochist) speak as though the public option is dead and buried, even one that would pay for itself, I guess by Obama’s signaling that he’s willing to sign a bill without it.
I’ve learned to take seriously the way MSM (mis)characterizes, since it so easily becomes fact. Will stay tuned, however.
Hope springs eternal…
DONT BOTHER TRYING TO EXPLAIN, PLZ
Okay. I could explain how dozens of health systems around the world provide more service for less cost, but it would sort of be like speaking Tagalog to a groundhog.
Of course, that would require renigging…
The word is “reneging”. I’m going to assume that’s just a typo…
Governing: bypassing democratic processes, financing elective wars on the cuff, firing dissenters…
I guess what Obama should do is hire back Monica Goodling and Lurita Doan. They’d have things cleaned up in no time. I understand Alberto Gonzales is still available, too.
The word is “reneging”. I’m going to assume that’s just a typo…
Me no spell goode.
[...] Damn You Barack Obama, Again (oliverwillis.com) [...]
Mike asks, “How can you justify making someone else pay for your healthcare?”
I know this may simply be a rhetorical question, but do you even know how insurance works? You know, when a large group pools their money to cover risks that could affect everyone in the pool? You know, making someone else pay for your healthcare?
See Durablend and Jaim’s comments for additional examples of public goods paid for by all.
I’m sure that you’re such a rock-ribbed libertarian that you don’t use insurance, or police, public highways, or any of the other myriad ways in which society shares the cost burden.
Zython, Quaker’s little list notwithstanding (and Quaker, you mention taxes and tax penalties which interestingly, Obama did not mention. His mention of taxes only came about in the form of the typical Democratic, “tax cuts for the rich” blather), you cannot take a $2.5 trillion health care system and do all of the things Obama said it will do and not add to the deficit. And please note, that I said Obama will not be able to deliver on his promises. There’s nothing to break because the math simply does not add up.
Let’s look at what Obama says:
Add it all up, and the plan I’m proposing will cost around $900 billion over ten years
I’m sorry, but if you believe this, then you live in Fantasyland. Remember Medicare. Remember how I have repeated the promise made by those who implemented Medicare saying it would never cost more than $10 billion a year. Last year? Over $400 billion.
How can you possibly believe that what Obama proposes to do will only cost $90 billion a year? That’s insanity.
What I want is a politician to say, “We want everybody to have coverage, but you know what? It’s going to take large across the board tax increases in order to fund it.” Quaker mentioned Japan. Japan’s individual income taxes along with local taxes are among the highest in the world.
I’m tired of politicians (on both sides) promising that huge government programs can be created without deficit spending and without tax increases. Oh and the added promise in this case that it will lower health care costs across the board.
I’d like to see reform of the system as well but it won’t happen unless there are some big tax increases and those increases will have to be across the board. When somebody starts telling that truth, then we can start talking honestly about health care reform.
I’m sorry, but if you believe this, then you live in Fantasyland. Remember Medicare. Remember how I have repeated the promise made by those who implemented Medicare saying it would never cost more than $10 billion a year. Last year? Over $400 billion.
I see. A different government program now costs more than predictions made 30 years before the fact. Therefore Obama is wrong. There’s something missing in that logic. Can’t quite put my finger on it.
How can you possibly believe that what Obama proposes to do will only cost $90 billion a year? That’s insanity.
But it’s not $90 billion a year. It’s $900 billion over 10 years. There’s nothing that says this is a straight line expenditure. If you really want to go after Obama on this one, look at Year 11.
What I want is a politician to say, “We want everybody to have coverage, but you know what? It’s going to take large across the board tax increases in order to fund it.” Quaker mentioned Japan. Japan’s individual income taxes along with local taxes are among the highest in the world.
Total non sequiter. What Japan spends on health care is not related to what they collect in taxes. We spend three times more per person than they do. They’re using those higher taxes for something other than health care.
I’m tired of politicians (on both sides) promising that huge government programs can be created without deficit spending and without tax increases. Oh and the added promise in this case that it will lower health care costs across the board.
You know what I’m tired of? Conservatives pretending that health care costs have not increased at three times the rate of average wages. That health care costs will not bankrupt families if we just leave the insurance companies alone. That the federal budget will not be consumed by health care costs under the current system.
The Congressional GOP needs to bring more to the table than just shouting “You lie!” at the President.
Finally, Jay, Mr. Obama is at least proposing a way to pay for his health care plan. Do I need to make the obvious comparison?
I actually agree with Jay in that I would like to see a sense of shared sacrifice in this. I would not mind (ok,up to a point)paying higher taxes for reform.
During the mourning for Senator Kennedy, someone told the story of his meeting with LBJ re Medicare. LBJ told him the trick would be getting it passed before anyone realized what it would cost.
Yes, Medicaire costs more than predicted. But, it’s worth it. And by the same token, what were estimates in 1965 of what national income and GDP would be 40 years later?
I see. A different government program now costs more than predictions made 30 years before the fact. Therefore Obama is wrong. There’s something missing in that logic. Can’t quite put my finger on it.
Excuse me, it wasn’t thirty years. The people who implemented it said the program would cost no more than $10 billion in 1990. It cost $107 billion that year. Obama is wrong because there has never been a major program such the one he is proposing that didn’t end up costing far more than what was proposed.
But it’s not $90 billion a year. It’s $900 billion over 10 years. There’s nothing that says this is a straight line expenditure. If you really want to go after Obama on this one, look at Year 11.
I know basic math might be not be your strong suit, but $90 billion a year is a figure that is known as an “average.” It doesn’t matter what the actual cost is per year. He made the claim that at the end of 10 years, his plan will cost only $900 billion. It’s not happening based on a cursory review of history.
Total non sequiter. What Japan spends on health care is not related to what they collect in taxes.
No, but the fact that Japan has a universal system is related to their tax levels which are very high. They save a lot on overall expenditures because of their ability to keep administrative costs low which is where the bulk of the spending problems are with our system. Interestingly enough, President Obama didn’t address that issue at all other than to say such costs are “excessive.”
Conservatives pretending that health care costs have not increased at three times the rate of average wages. That health care costs will not bankrupt families if we just leave the insurance companies alone. That the federal budget will not be consumed by health care costs under the current system.
Strawman arguments that would make Ray Bolger proud.
The Congressional GOP needs to bring more to the table than just shouting “You lie!” at the President.
Actually, they have. In previous posts I pointed to several proposals offered up by Congressional Republicans only to be met with a collective “meh” because it wasn’t given Obama’s seal of approval or something.
Finally, Jay, Mr. Obama is at least proposing a way to pay for his health care plan.
No, he’s no proposing. He’s speculating. Big difference.
One simply question, Jay. If the GOP has all these great and wonderful health care plans to fix the problem, why didn’t they pass all these great and wonderful plans for the six years they had complete control of the Legislative and Executive branches?
“How can you justify making someone else pay for your healthcare”
YES How do you justify MORE money to an inefficient govt to run MORE entitlement programs?
No one is shooting down medicare & medicaid. OKAY DRAMA QUEENS.
DOESNT MEDICARE/MEDICAID ALREADY EAT UP 40% OF THE BUDGET?!
As far the genius who used his shitty grammar skills to try an ad hominem attack REALITY CHECK
So “more better” healthcare will produce “more better” workers?
BULLSHIT
There will still be ass-clowns (most of them liberals like my co-workers who spend hours a day on facebook or myspace while I am actually working) who no matter how healthy stand around all day goofing off.
Whether leaning on their shovel or gabbing about football.
Healthcare majority affects worker efficiency only if working conditions are crap to begin with.
Seriously you need to stop making this country out to be the devil just to get YOUR ideas put into action. HOW CAN YOU CLAIM HEALTHCARE IS BANKRUPTING US WHEN YOU JUST SPENT 1.5 TRILLION IN 6 MONTHS???
You want reform:
1. Address illegal immigration – dont just treat the symptoms STOP THE BLEEDING
2. Tort reform – malpractice insurance is ridiculously expensive
3. Mandate insurance – anyone over 25 must have health insurance, create competition
4. Proper regulation – how come there are over 500 ins companies and only 6 are allowed in California?
There are still more options other than LET DA GOVT T8KEOFER.
If this president was truly bi-partisan he would reach across the aisle and see these options.
When Dubya pulled his shit with Iraq I called shenanigans, BE AN INDIVIDUAL.
God we need to get out of this enslavement under this 2 party system.
Excuse me, it wasn’t thirty years. The people who implemented it said the program would cost no more than $10 billion in 1990. It cost $107 billion that year.
It wasn’t thirty years? What year did they make the projection you’re talking about?
I know basic math might be not be your strong suit, but $90 billion a year is a figure that is known as an “average.” It doesn’t matter what the actual cost is per year. He made the claim that at the end of 10 years, his plan will cost only $900 billion. It’s not happening based on a cursory review of history.
Jay, you made a list of things and claimed it can’t be done for $90 billion a year. The proposed changes would ramp up over a number of years with a “public option” not kicking in until 2013 and growing over the years to follow. The program will cost far less than $90 billion in the early years and much more toward the back end. If you guys were smart, you’d be trying to break down the cost by year, not claiming that Mr. Obama thinks the entire full-flowered program will cost $90B/per.
No, but the fact that Japan has a universal system is related to their tax levels which are very high. They save a lot on overall expenditures because of their ability to keep administrative costs low which is where the bulk of the spending problems are with our system. Interestingly enough, President Obama didn’t address that issue at all other than to say such costs are “excessive.”
Japan spends less per person. Whether they collect more or less in taxes isn’t relevant. They. Spend. Less.
Mr. Obama did indeed address administrative costs. He proposes competition from the “public option” as a way to put pressure on private insurers to keep administrative costs low. (One could argue this isn’t enough–and I would agree. My own preference would be to shut down private insurers or tightly limit their profit margins on health insurance.)
Strawman arguments that would make Ray Bolger proud.
An escape from the issue that makes Harry Houdini look like a schoolboy. The failures of the current program are guaranteed to worsen if nothing changes.
Actually, they have. In previous posts I pointed to several proposals offered up by Congressional Republicans only to be met with a collective “meh” because it wasn’t given Obama’s seal of approval or something.
Op-eds and white papers from the AEI aren’t legislation. Boehner promised the GOP was putting the “finishing touches” on their version of reform legislation. That was six weeks ago. So far, nothing. The Republican “propsals” are nothing more than a fig leaf for reflexive opposition to any serious proposal put on the table.
Mr. Obama did indeed address administrative costs. He proposes competition from the “public option” as a way to put pressure on private insurers to keep administrative costs low. (One could argue this isn’t enough–and I would agree. My own preference would be to shut down private insurers or tightly limit their profit margins on health insurance.)
STFU commie
Ohhh the evil insurance company making a profit.
Listen its very simple. Profit (money) is the incentive for any advancement of the human condition.
It may not be idealistic, but its realistic.
Thats the difference between liberals and conservatives.
Liberals are not grounded in reality.
STFU commie
Well, I guess you win.
For those interested in how a health care system can work with a limited profit motive, I recommend taking a look at the “commie” system in Switzerland.
I’m done. You liberals are fucking retarded.
During Dubya I was die hard liberal due to being outraged 24/7 at all the shit going on.
This administration is no better, trading debt and economic depravity for more control over you simps with the facade of “ohh this is for the good of the people”.
What good does it serve the people if the economy is shit, the dollar is worth crap and its hard to find a job?
I’m conservative, I don’t owe allegiance to anyone.
Make this about party loyalty all you want, but none of you will be happier on socialized healthcare.
You’ll still be bitching and blaming everyone else for your shitty existence except for who fault really rests on.
I’m done. You liberals are fucking retarded.
Another cogent argument. Kudos!
However, your point would have been more compelling in all capital letters.
“I guess you win”
That the best you got. Not a single comment on my proposed solutions. I just shot you down and showed you to be nothing more than the typical hateful JEALOUS liberal.
“oh those evil companies making money while I’m a poor dirty slob who showers once a week by choice ANY MORE WOULD BE WASTING WATER AND CONTRIBUTING TO GLOBAL WARMING”
Perhaps your employment options would improve if you went to college for something more marketable than humanities.
The reason why none of your “models” (euro-trash or otherwise) will work is because YOU LACK REALITY.
LOOK AT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. The average USian is obese, full of cholesterol, thinks a 99 cent burger from McDonalds is a SNACK.
Socialized medicine ONLY WORKS in the regards of “preventative medicine”.
Do you honestly think “preventative medicine” & what I just described as an average american can coexist?
That the best you got.
For “STFU commie”? Yeah, that’s it.
lol
You haven’t countered a single one of my points, nor argued against my proposals to this healthcare debacle.
All you can do is fire back snide little comments?
Please refer to my previous comment on “marketable”.
People with Masters in Philosophy sit around and think deep thoughts about why they’re still a waiter at Olive Garden.
Not a single comment on my proposed solutions.
That’s because they are incoherent where they are not redundant.
And because you have obviously come here not to have a rational discussion but to bust a caps lock in our collective liberal ass. Ho hum, we say.
Hey Quaker in a Liberal Arts Class
As far as “republican figleaf” guess we’ll never know since your annointed savior hasn’t met with them since April.
You haven’t countered a single one of my points,
Oh very well.
1) I do not have a masters in philosophy.
2) I do not work at the Olive Garden
Still not happy? I’m not surprised.
As far as “republican figleaf” guess we’ll never know since your annointed savior hasn’t met with them since April.
Was this a “point” you think deserves discussion? It’s so hard to tell.
WTF
Did Quaker log out and his alter ego log in? I call dupe.
btw nothing “redundant” at all about my ideas to solving this healthcare issue that “will bankrupt us and leave the country in ruin WOE IS US”
BTW, didn’t you say you were “done” about six comments back?
You haven’t countered a single one of my points, nor argued against my proposals to this healthcare debacle.
What the fuck were your points? Do you even know? What are your proposals? Could you please be specific? Thanks in advance.
Ohhh the evil profit making companies. They should just give stuff away for free.
You want reform:
1. Address illegal immigration – dont just treat the symptoms STOP THE BLEEDING
2. Tort reform – malpractice insurance is ridiculously expensive
3. Mandate insurance – anyone over 25 must have health insurance, create competition
4. Proper regulation – how come there are over 500 ins companies and only 6 are allowed in California?
Apparently the average liberal has the attention span of a gnat.
All you have to do is look up through previous posts.
I know its hard to do in between logging in and out of all your dupe accounts.
I claim this new territory as my own.
I will troll and troll and troll.
If you guys were smart, you’d be trying to break down the cost by year, not claiming that Mr. Obama thinks the entire full-flowered program will cost $90B/per.
Quaker, those were HIS WORDS:
Now, add it all up, and the plan I’m proposing will cost around $900 billion over 10 years
Japan spends less per person. Whether they collect more or less in taxes isn’t relevant. They. Spend. Less.
Yes, it is relevant. The fact that they spend less per person, doesn’t take away from the fact that we cannot implement a system that is being proposed without VERY LARGE TAX INCREASES. In addition, the per person cost is higher here because we start with a higher base price per person thanks in part to the technology we have and the amazing amount of talent we have working in the medical profession.
Mr. Obama did indeed address administrative costs. He proposes competition from the “public option” as a way to put pressure on private insurers to keep administrative costs low.
Yes, except the public option is only going to be made available to those without insurance so the effect is going to be negligible.
Op-eds and white papers from the AEI aren’t legislation.
Well that’s not I what I linked to. Legislation has been submitted by Sen. Jim DeMint (released in early June), Rep. Tom Price (released in July), and there was the joint bill released by GOP Senators and Representatives back in May. Just because you don’t like what they offered up, doesn’t mean they haven’t offered up anything. Democrats just don’t want to listen to anything outside of what they want.
And can we please do away with the comparisons to Switzerland? There’s more people living in New York City than in that entire country. It’s a bogus comparison.
1. Your personal bigotry is not relevant to the current discussion.
2. If you listened to Mr. Obama’s speech, you might have heard him toss the right a bone on this one. Just curious, though: How much impact do you think tort reform will have?
3. Included in the current plan.
4. Could be in the current plan if the right is smart enough to bargain for it. Mr. Obama’s plan calls for a health insurance exchange. That could very well serve as a vehicle for interstate purchasing.
But hey, that’s just one commie’s opinion. Sorry, I mean…ONE COMMIE’S OPINION.
Of course they cant let the inane comparisons go. Its the only bit of “proof” they have for their argument.
Anything else and it will be the standard: companies that make profit are evil, Obama is TOTALLY trustworthy, kittens and puppies.
You just destroyed the Japan comparison with simple mathematical logic and still they will be blind.
And Quaker, if you’re stating that his plan would only cost say, $5 billion to $20 billion in the first 7 or 8 years and then balloon, isn’t it incumbent upon him to tell the public his plan could eventually cost hundreds of billions of dollars per year?
Quaker, those were HIS WORDS:
Now, add it all up, and the plan I’m proposing will cost around $900 billion over 10 years
Right. $900 billion over 10 years. Not $90 billion a year.
Yes, it is relevant. The fact that they spend less per person, doesn’t take away from the fact that we cannot implement a system that is being proposed without VERY LARGE TAX INCREASES.
Thanks for closing the loop in your circular logic. Our current system is, in fact, loaded with waste. We pay three times as much per person than Japan. We do not get three times the service.
In addition, the per person cost is higher here because we start with a higher base price per person thanks in part to the technology we have and the amazing amount of talent we have working in the medical profession.
Which they don’t have in Japan?
Yes, it is relevant. The fact that they spend less per person, doesn’t take away from the fact that we cannot implement a system that is being proposed without VERY LARGE TAX INCREASES.
No, we can’t. If you rule out all other systems because they’re not exactly like ours, then all we’re left with is…a system exactly like ours. Which from your point of view is really the objective, isn’t it?
As for the Republican alternatives you linked at some other time in another thread, I’ll see if I can find them.
Sorry. Cut and paste fail. My last comment was supposed to be a response to:
And can we please do away with the comparisons to Switzerland? There’s more people living in New York City than in that entire country. It’s a bogus comparison.
isn’t it incumbent upon him to tell the public his plan could eventually cost hundreds of billions of dollars per year?
That’s what I was saying. If I was on the right, that’s where I’d be going. As it is, I’m a lefty. I think the program is a bargain at 10 times the price.
1. Your personal bigotry – no sellout, of the “40 million” uninsured HOW MANY ARE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS? Be interesting to see how many unpaid medical bills go to people who don’t even pay taxes
2. If you listened to Mr. Obama’s speech – not into pandering, if he was serious he would have read the bills when they came out not just grandstanding. Personally I don’t think it will be that large a slice of the pie, but every little bit helps in bringing down the cost.
3. Included in the current plan. WTF yeah included in plan to join the public option. Don’t try me retard I downloaded and read the House of Rep bill. Page 16? I believe where it says “no company shall accept new policies after Y1 (year 1)”. Perhaps I’m reading this wrong but why is this language even in there. And why is Obama recorded saying he wants to do away with the private option.
4. Could be in the current plan if the right – why does the right have to bargain for it. If its a common sense approach why does one side or the other have to fight for it? Shouldnt it be in there automatically? Or are you admitting the left has no common sense?
But hey, that’s just one commie’s opinion. Sorry, I mean…ONE COMMIE’S OPINION – THATS RIGHT COMMIE Until you rescind your statement “the govt needs to eliminate companies or TIGHTLY RESTRICT their profit” THAT MAKES YOU A HEATHEN COMMIE BASTARD
WAITING
guess ya gotta clean up from your head exploding first
THAT MAKES YOU A HEATHEN COMMIE BASTARD
OK. You win.
why does the right have to bargain for it. If its a common sense approach why does one side or the other have to fight for it? Shouldnt it be in there automatically?
Well, you could just wish for it.
Ladies and gentleman, let me introduce mike: the cutting edge of right-wing thinking.
Perhaps I’m reading this wrong
Could be.
Liberals at Oliver Willis
Ladies and Gentleman let me introduce you to cutting edge at liberal incompetence.
From mono-syllabic responses to lame attempts at humor, yes they got it all.
“Ohhh the evil profit making companies. They should just give stuff away for free.”
No, not for free but for a reasonable profit, not for predatory windfalls.
Here here canadian bacon I AGREE WITH YOU 100%. The Republicans for too long have not practiced what they preach.
I dont take political sides. I just believe in Capitalism.
The only way to insure companies offer goods and services for a reasonable price is through competition.
If you try to achieve the same through legislation you risk infringing upon freedom.
The govt can not replace business, it should instead stimulate and regulate (very thin line on this last one).
Right. $900 billion over 10 years. Not $90 billion a year.
Yes and as I said, $90 billion is the AVERAGE over that time. Once again as you often do, you’re getting into semantics.
Thanks for closing the loop in your circular logic. Our current system is, in fact, loaded with waste. We pay three times as much per person than Japan. We do not get three times the service.
It’s not circular. You’re the one arguing we should be more like Japan. What they spend per person only tells PART of the story about their system.
No, we can’t. If you rule out all other systems because they’re not exactly like ours, then all we’re left with is…a system exactly like ours. Which from your point of view is really the objective, isn’t it?
Well, you admit….rather you acknowledge that it’s going to require tax increases. Except we’re not hearing that from the people that count. And I am not opposed to changes. I in fact, support many changes, but different from those Obama proposes and requires less government intrusion and relies more on market forces to deal with costs.
Here are links to the other proposals:
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:s1324is.txt.pdf
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c111:1:./temp/~c1110WP5CL::
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c111:1:./temp/~c11119v9JI::
Yes and as I said, $90 billion is the AVERAGE over that time. Once again as you often do, you’re getting into semantics.
Not semantics. $900 billion over 10 years does not mean that the proposed program will cost $90 billion a year. Yes, I understand you’re talking about an average. The average may not reflect the cost of the program during any given year. So arguing whether the proposed changes can be accomplished for “$90 billion a year” is a pointless exercise.
You’re the one arguing we should be more like Japan. What they spend per person only tells PART of the story about their system.
The health care system in Japan costs way less than ours. Yet the Japanese see their doctors more often than we do and don’t even bother to make appointments–they just stop in. Doesn’t that suggest to you that we aren’t getting our money’s worth? That there just might be some possible ways to make our system more efficient without curtailing services?
I in fact, support many changes, but different from those Obama proposes and requires less government intrusion and relies more on market forces to deal with costs.
Outside of the public option, intended to cover those who otherwise can’t get insurance, Mr. Obama’s proposal leaves the system in the hands of private insurers. How much less government intrusion could you ask for?
And thanks for the links. I’ll check ‘em out.
Eh. Thomas doesn’t link so good. Which bills were you trying to link? Shadegg? Patient’s Choice? Price?
Quaker, you’re not helping your argument. It’s true that the expenditures won’t be spent evenly over the 10 year period. But that means the costs will be backloaded so re-authorization will lead to crippling, unsustainable debt. Not a point in your favor if you’re angling for passage.
I think it’s fair and relevant to take a look at those upcoming historical costs before we decide to jump headfirst into this program, no?
How can you possibly believe that what Obama proposes to do will only cost $90 billion a year? That’s insanity.
Alot more believable than thinking the Iraq War would pay for itself.
Your personal bigotry – no sellout, of the “40 million” uninsured HOW MANY ARE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS? Be interesting to see how many unpaid medical bills go to people who don’t even pay taxes
Considering there are an estimated 8 million Illegal Immigrants(TM), if we were to assume that all of them were uninsured, that would be 32 million uninsured legal citizens. Math is hard!
4. Could be in the current plan if the right – why does the right have to bargain for it. If its a common sense approach why does one side or the other have to fight for it? Shouldnt it be in there automatically? Or are you admitting the left has no common sense?
Considering that torture and denying homosexuals rights for shits and giggles is part of the Republican party platform, Republican policy proposition have to be carefully examined 1st.
Ohhh the evil insurance company making a profit.
Listen its very simple. Profit (money) is the incentive for any advancement of the human condition.
Even if one were denied the service that they paid for?
Quaker, you’re not helping your argument. It’s true that the expenditures won’t be spent evenly over the 10 year period. Not a point in your favor if you’re angling for passage.
Man, you’re quick! Can’t get anything past you!
If you’ll check, you’ll see that I have already admitted my observations aren’t helpful to the side I want to prevail. Anyway, you’re confusing “cost” with “debt” right here:
But that means the costs will be backloaded so re-authorization will lead to crippling, unsustainable debt.
Mr. Obama is proposing to pay for his plan, not borrow against future revenues by taking on debt. I understand this is a difficult concept after eight years of Republican borrow-and-spend economics, but ponder on it. It’ll come to you.
Mr. Obama is proposing to pay for his plan
Not according to the CBO. He’s (depending on the bill) between 800B and 1 trillion in the hole.
That money’s gotta come from somewhere. And we don’t have enough Top 5%ers to cover that big a bill.
Where did the money for Iraq come from?
Not according to the CBO. He’s (depending on the bill) between 800B and 1 trillion in the hole.
You’re still confusing cost with debt.
Looky here.
Where did the money for Iraq come from?
China.
Much of the money needed for the proposed program is going to come from people paying their money to get health insurance. Money will also come from taxes on high-end health insurance benefits and some from cuts to Medicare subsidies to private insurers.
Borrow it. Pay it. Not the same thing.
I’ma use this the next time some people start doubting POTUS.
Awesome.
‘Problem is, he cannot deliver on his promises.’
Unlike Dumbya presumably?
‘Somebody let me know when REALITY sets back in.’
The reality is that the country deserves universal health care, and the GOP have been exposed as being against it for purely political reasons.
BTW, Joe Wilson is a libelous idiot, and you should be ashamed of making light of his incredibly boorish behavior.
‘How can you provide more services with same or less funding – YOU CANT, DONT BOTHER TRYING TO EXPLAIN, PLZ SEE PRIOR COMMENT ON LACKING REALITY’
If it’s impossible, how do so many other countries manage it?
For someone who claims to be a realist, you sure are ignoring a lot of facts.
‘Am seriously starting to beleive most of you liberals are communists in hiding or just too stupid to realize who you’re working for.’
And let us know when Elvis gets here.
‘I don’t see what the hullaballoo is all about: Barack Obama read a teleprompter effectivly. In other news, the sun rose in the east. But speechmaking is not governing, and Obama hasn’t yet shown he’s capable of that part of the equation.’
Unlike Dumbya, Obama pens a good deal of his speeches, this one had all the earmarks of his own work; but if you’re going to talk about governing after supporting the vacation president, your authority and credibility on this subject are zero.
‘Listen its very simple. Profit (money) is the incentive for any advancement of the human condition.’
WTF are you talking about?
Where are the profit in civil rights, the ERA, environmental protection?
Conservatives HAVE to see a payday or it’s no go; how fucking sad.
‘During Dubya I was die hard liberal due to being outraged 24/7 at all the shit going on.’
Makes perfect sense; 8 years of a totalitarian government that constantly lied and hid a secret agenda of Orwellian proportions, and you claim it only bolstered your Liberalism; now that a liberal President is in office, his attempts to promote a liberal agenda have forced you to become a Neo-Conservative.
Say hi to Jimmy Hoffa and the Easter Bunny for us.
The Census Bureau comes to its senses:
Frank DiSalle and other wingers sure have issues with anything and anybody that ever had any connection with the President.
I only have a problem with those of his caliber that only watch right wing mess like Fox. Because they lie. Either that doesn’t bother them or they’re just racist.
http://www.ceasespin.org/ceasespin_blog/ceasespin_blogger_files/fox_news_gets_okay_to_misinform_public.html