Nope, not in those either. The voluntary end-of-life consultations is. “Death panels” or anything remotely like them haven’t been in any of the bills.

Nor was it ever. As you admit was the case in your very next sentence.

Apparently, none of you know how government regulations work. First, it’s truly voluntary. But then there is something that will be withheld if you don’t have the counseling — even if you make no decision at all.

God, Frank, you used to have some semblance of sense. What happened to you, guy?

It’s not in the version that cleared one Senate committee. Still in the House bill, tho. Still in the version that came out of other Senate committees.

None of the versions made counseling mandatory, your vast experience in governmental deception notwithstanding.

Should be : The so-called “death panels” piece of the legislation was removed, so , yes , so it’s not in the bill – now …

Apparently, none of you know how government regulations work. First, it’s truly voluntary. But then there is something that will be withheld if you don’t have the counseling — even if you make no decision at all.

As a former government employee ( 15 years ) I knew exactly how to make taxpayers think that things that were voluntary, were compulsory, or, at least, let them believe it, because it made our job easier.

and , oh yeah, Derf, when you and your ilk stop regurgitating the NYTimes LATimes WAPO and MSNBC, you can talk about independent thinking. ‘Til then , don’t bother me with your mindless cogitations.

And a special message to you, derF (you can ask someone who you’re sure has been to Viet Nam what it means) du’u mi’ami!

Frank DiSalle: Yes , it is true. …

…If either the family does not seek an extension or the judge fails to grant one, futile treatment may be unilaterally withdrawn by the treatment team…

…It seems as if the court and the medical facility can overrule the family, but it;s not easy

Nobody said it was easy, Frank. Only that it was possible. That the wishes of the family could be overruled.

And yet, even when you refer to exactly that passage yourself, admit it could be done and providing an example, you’re apparently compelled to start with a contradictory “Yes, it is true.”

wingnut Pavlovian conditioning, ladies and gents.

You and I both know that “end – of – life counseling” is about whether your life should end, and you are talking to a doctor, who has God-like attributes in your eyes. You are required to do this regularly as you get older.

God, you really are insistent on lies as truth, aren’t you? “Death panels have been touroughly discredited yet you still flat out proclaim they exist and that things are mandatory.

I know no such thing. I do not “know” that end-of-life counselling is about whether your life should end. I.e., about whether you should be allowed to continue living. I do know that such counseling is about you choosing what you would like to have done at the end of your life including whether you would like heroic life sustating measures used to perpetuate your life at all costs.

And I do know that such counseling sessions are completely, entirely voluntary.

I don’t have to discuss with a doctor what I want to do…

Nobody does, Frank. Nobody is forced to have a counseling session with anybody. And you know it.

So, just STFU, Frank.

That’s not in the bill.

* The family must be given written information concerning hospital policy on the ethics consultation process.
* The family must be given 48 hours’ notice and be invited to participate in the ethics consultation process. Family members may consult their own medical specialists and legal advisors if they wish.
* The ethics consultation process must provide a written report to the family of the findings of the ethics review process.
* If the ethics consultation process fails to resolve the dispute, the hospital, working with the family, must try to arrange transfer to another provider physician and institution who are willing to give the treatment requested by the family and refused by the current treatment team.
* If either the family does not seek an extension or the judge fails to grant one, futile treatment may be unilaterally withdrawn by the treatment team with immunity from civil or criminal prosecution. [2]

It seems as if the court and the medical facility can overrule the family, but it;s not easy – remember Terri Schiavo? And that was a case of conflicting family members.

My “wondering” was a literary device. You and I both know that “end – of – life counseling” is about whether your life should end, and you are talking to a doctor, who has God-like attributes in your eyes. You are required to do this regularly as you get older. How do think that frail, elderly person is going to feel ?

Now , if “end – of – life” counseling involved the clergy and family members, I’d be all for it. I get a DNR folder and Medical Proxy information every time I go to the ER – and that’s too often – but I just leave it unread. I don’t have to discuss with a doctor what I want to do if “I become a burden on my loved ones”, or “Can’t lead a normal life, anyway”.

No they are not, because the “Kill Gramma” provision doesn’t exist.
As I am certain none of you have read it, I don’t expect an answer.

And you’d be wrong.

Again.

Not exactly true, now is it. The wishes of family members can be overruled by the Drs and court.

Stay with wondering, Frank. Much easier than actually finding out, right?

Incidentally, having been a trainer in Advanced Directives in Mental Health, I have some familiarity with Advanced Directives in medical situations, and DNR documents. Similar laws exist in many states.

To put it simply: If the cost of medical care has become prohibitive, AND there is little chance the patient will survive, AND there is no pre-existing document, AND there are no family members to provide guidance, AND there is no alternative medical facility that will take the patient, THEN you can send Grandma off to the Heavenly Choir.

It’s Not Wrong If You Do It Right

Big difference.

Black Presidents want to kill gramma. White ones want to save her.