Oil Industry Plans To Imitate Tea Party Astroturf
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© 2000-2011 Oliver Willis
“I’ll have Karl Rove on to pretend this is grassroots”-Greta Van Susteren
1) This is Kos, remember. These are the same assholes who pushed about 80% of the Palin lies.
B) Oliver, any comment on the astroturfing that’s been pulled by Obama supporters? I refer specifically to the Massachusetts Obama delegate and big donor who brought her daughter to pose that incredibly tough question on Obama here in New Hampshire, and the Houston woman at the Sheila Jackson-Lee meeting who claimed to be a doctor, but instead is a social work grad student, former Obama delegate, and lead organizer with
ObamaOrganized For America.Just wondering…
J.
Oliver, any comment on the astroturfing that’s been pulled by Obama supporters? I refer specifically to the Massachusetts Obama delegate and big donor who brought her daughter to pose that incredibly tough question on Obama here in New Hampshire
What? Obama supporters at an Obama town hall? Unthinkable.
Was said woman or her daughter pretending to be anything they aren’t? Were they recruited to appear by anyone who stands to gain from health care reform?
Perhaps you should review the meaning of “astroturf.”
Quaker, this woman was a big Obama donor, a delegate for him at the DNC, and brought her daughter from another state to the event. Miraculously, they got in (I wonder if the union folks made sure she made it in) and the daughter was picked to ask her suitably obsequious and fawning question.
What an astonishing series of coincidences. I’ve read several accounts of my fellow New Hampshirites who couldn’t get into the Portsmouth, NH event — which this Massachusetts woman attended.
And by your not discussing the Houston example, I take it that you agree that it is a perfect example of “astroturfing?”
J.
Quaker already answered this. Whatever you’re smoking, Jay, smoke it when you’re away from your computer.
Matante, he didn’t say word one about the Obama leader and fake doctor in Houston. Unless I missed it — could you point it out for me?
J.
Quaker, this woman was a big Obama donor, a delegate for him at the DNC, and brought her daughter from another state to the event. Miraculously, they got in (I wonder if the union folks made sure she made it in) and the daughter was picked to ask her suitably obsequious and fawning question
Nonresponsive. Scroll up to review the questions you forgot to answer.
And by your not discussing the Houston example, I take it that you agree that it is a perfect example of “astroturfing?”
Characteristically wrong, Mr. Tea. By not discussing the Houston example, I indicate that I am insufficiently informed about the incident to offer a pertinent opinion.
And once again, I suggest you refresh your understanding of the term “astroturfing.” It refers to manufactured grass roots movements. One little girl is not a movement.
Oh, Quaker, you’re so gosh-darned cute when you’re disingenuous, I just wanna pinch your cheeks. All four of ‘em.
In New Hampshire, an OFA member and Obama delegate not only gets into an event in the next state that’s extremely popular, her daughter is lucky enough to be called upon to ask a suitably obsequious question. Meanwhile, actual New Hampshire residents — NOT Massachusetts imports — are stuck outside.
In Houston, OFA leader and Obama delegate Roxana Mayer impersonates a doctor (BOTH a GP and a pediatrician) to voice her support for ObamaCare to Shiela Jackson-Lee, who does NOT blow her off for a phone call but instead gives the social work student a big hug.
In other town hall forums around the nation, major Obama backer SEIU sneaks supporters into events through handicapped and other normally-closed entrances, ropes off the lion’s share of seats for supporters, keeps out opponents, and occasionally smacks them around for daring to question things.
At what point do all these “coincidences” stop being coincidences, and an undeniable pattern of a large, organizing force (coincidentally pulled together at barackobama.com) pushing its force in a way to seem like a grass-roots effort?
For me, that point passed a while ago.
J.
FYI, Quaker, I gave you enough info on the Houston scam to verify it for yourself. I know that any source I cite will be instantly dismissed, so I’m not bothering to mention them. Find out for yourself.
J.
Oh, this part of the memo is quite enlightening:
Sounds like a ready-made task for David Axelrod’s ASK Associates. This would be right up their alley.
Alternately, Organizing For America or ACORN could do it about as well.
J.
shorter jay tea: things OVER THERE look interesting!!!!!
In New Hampshire, an OFA member and Obama delegate not only gets into an event in the next state that’s extremely popular, her daughter is lucky enough to be called upon to ask a suitably obsequious question. Meanwhile, actual New Hampshire residents — NOT Massachusetts imports — are stuck outside.
You already said that. Repeating it doesn’t make it any more relevant.
Did either mom or daughter pretend to be anyone they weren’t? Were they recruited by anyone who stands to gain from the legislation?
If you think she was a plant, say so. That’s not the same thing as “astroturfing.”
In other town hall forums around the nation, major Obama backer SEIU sneaks supporters into events through handicapped and other normally-closed entrances, ropes off the lion’s share of seats for supporters, keeps out opponents, and occasionally smacks them around for daring to question things.
You mean the rallies sponsored by SEIU? They let their own volunteers and members into the meeting? What next? Democrats at the Democratic convention?
Really, Mr. Tea. You people get worked up about the damnedest things.
FYI, Quaker, I gave you enough info on the Houston scam to verify it for yourself. I know that any source I cite will be instantly dismissed, so I’m not bothering to mention them. Find out for yourself.
You’ve mistaken me for someone interested in your petty preoccupations.
Jay:
I agree. I can’t see why anyone is doubting you.
From that one (1) incident, surely people think that there’s a huge, huge, *HUGE* outpouring of popular support for Obama’s proposals for health care reform. No one could say “but that was just one person! A child, in fact!” Because, in fact, it surely was not merely one child – no, she was clearly the first of millions of clones, all a veritable army of Obamabots, with fake birth certificates and everything!
Because grass roots campaigning isn’t about reaching out to single people (single blades of grass) – it’s about one single solitary question asked by one single solitary person.
Why, when I canvassed for a local rep in Philly, that’s what he told me… that local politcs is all about grass roots, which is to say, one single person, not reaching out to hundreds and hundreds, getting your name known, seeming friendly and approachable.
In fact, that’s why the Republican won the Presidency last election. They had one single solitary person, a nice, approachable seeming person Samuel Joeplumber or something. One person – that’s what grass roots mean, because a single blade of grass can grow into a huge monstrosity with real strength, when not supported by many of its fellows.
Oh, and Jay? Although it would be pretty fucking obvious to anyone of even mildly-below-average intelligence?
I’m mocking you.
It seems important to point that out, just in case you misunderstand.
LongHaired, when Mayer gets a fraction of the scrutiny that that plumber/not-a-fully-licensed-plumber got — including state officials violating the law and his civil rights by poking through confidential state records — you MIGHT have a case.
But that might embarrass Obama — that a leader of his organization and former delegate for him — impersonated a doctor to give a bit more credibility for her shilling at a public event, so we can expect this one to get swept under the rug.
As far as the SEIU goes… yeah, they organized these events, but publicized them as open to the public. Then they proceeded to pack the events and stack the seating in their favor. So what conclusion can be drawn from this? That the SEIU supports the plan, and so do their friends and allies?
Big surprise there. After all, the SEIU spent well into eight figures on getting Obama elected. No need to spin their events into some grant proclamation of public support.
Oh, that’s right, they are.
J.
LongHaired, when Mayer gets a fraction of the scrutiny that that plumber/not-a-fully-licensed-plumber got — including state officials violating the law and his civil rights by poking through confidential state records — you MIGHT have a case.
Yes, Jay Tea, because an individual Obama supporter choosing to misrepresent herself to a reporter on her own, is just like McCain making Joe the Plumber the center piece of his failing campaign.
It’s exactly the same thing. Which is not to say anyone should have gone through Joe’s confidential state records, but for fucksakes, Jay Tea, you aren’t so stupid as to think the press wouldn’t want to know who the fuck Joe the Plumber was because McCain singled him out specifically and elevated him to the national stage as an official part of his campaign for president. Oh wait, you are.
And by the way, Jay Tea, before you go on and on about someone misrepresenting themselves, you’ve shilled more blatant falsehoods on this blog than anyone here.
Like I said before, maybe you should get your correct to totally full of shit quotient a little better before you go criticizing others.
You were the first asshole out of the gate here pushing the “Obama wants to kill old people” bullshit. When you got called on it, you just disappeared, never to mention it again.
But did you ever post anything on Commentary about how the whole “death panel” thing was a crock of shit?
No. You didn’t.
Which tells me that you could give a fuck about what’s true and keeping your readers informed of that truth.
Which sort of makes you a complete douchebag.
Oh, faparoo, when you dote on me so in public, it embarrasses me so. Cut it out — you’re making me blush.
Pity you can’t stick to the actual topic.
Mayer was BUSTED. Plain and simple. And even more shamefully, the Houston Chronicle — when it discovered it was conned — just quietly corrected the caption to remove her self-identification as a doctor. The new one didn’t mention her fraud, her connection to Obama, nothing.
Likewise, minimal attention is being paid to the Obama donor, delegate, and OFA volunteer who came up from Massachusetts just so her daughter could ask that adorably obsequious question.
Back to Joe… his status as a plumber and his legal first name (I’ve known several people who go by their middle name, BTW) had nothing to do with his question. Indeed, his question was pretty irrelevant — it was Obama’s answer that got all the attention. Further, he didn’t seek out Obama, Obama came to his neighborhood.
Mayer here, though — her lies went to the very nature of what she was saying. She said she was a GP and a pediatrician, had been for four years, and as a professional wanted to lend her support to the plan. The amazing thing about her is that she used her real name — the one grain of truth in it.
And for those lies, she was lauded by Jackson-Lee and the audience, who took what she said at face value.
So, where are the civic-minded truth-seekers digging into Mayers’ background? Well, one person has noticed that the person who accompanied Mayer to the event ran a campaign office for Obama in Texas, where she proudly stuck a picture of Obama right next to one of Che Guevera.
Apart from that… will we see Mayers’ criminal record? Her academic transcripts? Her tax filings?
I’d hope not. It was reprehensible when it happened to Wurzelbacher, and I’d like to think that the message sent from that held true.
That the political bias of those who did the illegal and unethical snooping would incline them more to cover up for Mayers and uncover anything would be, I’m sure, purely a coincidence.
J.
Oh, another bit of planting: a guy showed up at a John Dingell event with an “Obama as Hitler” poster.
Then, later, seen handing out official Dingell literature.
theblogprof.blogspot.com/2009/08/busted-obama-as-hitler-poster-was.html
Quick, someone tell Nancy Pelosi! She’ll be shocked! We might even see a hint of facial movement!
J.
Jay:
Ah, I get it. You misused the term “astroturf,” but that’s okay because – hey, look, over there! Subject change!
But you know, I think you might have a point. I mean, New Hampshire and Massachusetts are really far away, aren’t they? I mean, it’s like California and Montana, right? So, when you bring up the out-of-state criticism, well, that’s a big deal, right?
And you know, the kid – no one ever calls on a cute kid during a town hall, thinking its wonderful to give a child the experience of talking to the President. It had to be a devious plan – and please note, not to make a darling photo op, but to make people think there were millions and millions of people rising up in support of health care reform, because otherwise, when you claim astroturfing, you’d be, well, wrong, and stupidly so.
Long, here in New Hampshire we’re a bit touchy about the Massholes coming here and trying to turn us into North Mass.
And back to the Houston case — it’s now confirmed that THREE of the people in the front row were Obama campaign/Organizing For America veterans. The most obvious one was the fake doctor. Next to her was the woman who ran an Obama volunteer office, with his photo stuck right next to one of Che Guevera. And now the third woman in the front row of the Shiela Jackson-Lee event has been spotted as from the same group:
http://patterico.com/2009/08/15/identified-another-front-row-town-hall-attendee-also-member-of-obama-campaign-team/
Odd how those guaranteed-friendly people got right into the front row, while the hoi polloi were stuck in the back — and so meaningless to the event that Jackson-Lee started making phone calls IN THE MIDDLE OF ONE OF THEM’S QUESTION.
THAT woman — the cancer survivor — deserved a hug and applause, not the 12-year grad student who was impersonating a doctor.
But she wasn’t in favor of ObamaCare, so she gets blown off in favor of the planted shills.
J.
Mayer was BUSTED. Plain and simple. And even more shamefully, the Houston Chronicle — when it discovered it was conned — just quietly corrected the caption to remove her self-identification as a doctor. The new one didn’t mention her fraud, her connection to Obama, nothing.
As LHW pointed out, Jay Tea, you don’t even know what the word “astroturfing” means because Mayer ain’t a case of it.
And yet, you want to blow this into some huge Obama scandal as if Obama or anyone involved in organizing the event put her up to misrepresenting herself. If you have proof of that, go for it, post it. If you don’t, all the mindless conjecture in the world won’t make it so.
Finally, you compare this incident to Joe the Plumber. There’s no correlation between an individual Obama supporter showing up at an Obama rally and misrepresenting herself to a reporter afterwards and how McCain throw is flailing arms arouond Joe the Plumber in a despaerate bid to save his campaign.
So come on, Jay Tea. The records shows you’re an ignorant, dishonest weasel.
I suggest a little personal reflection is in order before you continue to go after others.
A few minor points, faf. I’m not comparing the Plumber and the Doctor incidents, I’m CONTRASTING them. For another, if you read my last comment, Mayer was one of three Obama volunteers — and the other two HAD to know that Mayer was full of shit, and let her fraud stand unchallenged.
On the issue of astroturfing, though… my initial inclination is to yield on that point. After all, the king of astroturfing is oen of Obama’s top aides, and if anyone ought to know the meaning of the term, it ought to be the Obamoids.
But on reflection, I stand by my assertion that what the Obamoids are doing is a hell of a lot closer to “astroturfing” than what Oliver is accusing the other side of doing.
Here’s a compromise — I’ve heard the term “greenhousing” being applied to the pro-ObamaCare folks to reflect the amazing number of plants under one roof. How about we use that?
In the meantime, if you’d like to take up just how the Tea Parties and whatnot constitute “astroturfing” by some definition that you can cite as existing before this whole mess, I’d be FASCINATED to read it.
Of course, that might end up with you having to challenge Oliver’s use of the term, so that might be a bit of a challenge for you…
J.
I am not now, and never have been, a member of the Howard family. Of course, if I was, I’d deny it. Then again, if I was, and trying to deny it, I wouldn’t bring the issue up in the first place.
(Is “Weirdo” really that hard to type? Or is it just silly to expect people to use the noun instead of the adjectival phrase?)
Wow. I didn’t know having a kid ask a question could do that. Does it only work for New Hampshire and Massachusetts? Or could I have a bunch of Texans ask questions in California, as a sort of social experiment?
Fafaroo:
Weasels are cute furry animals with many redeeming qualities!
You know what? I fucking give up on these people re: Health care. And, most other stuff too. Seriously – people know the health care system in this country is fucked up. My wife and I know know this inimately, and we have pretty decent coverage. But, we have friends who are contractors, or looking for work, and right now if they got sick enough to need something more than over the counter drugs, they’d be screwed. And chances are, every member of these anti-Obama crowds do too.
Yet, I have not heard thing one from these crowds about what they plan to do to fix this. And the solutions I have seen from the Right are basically punishing people for not making enough money to afford coverage themselves. That is, they are worse than useless.
Right now, I am of the opinion that every person who doesn’t want a public health system lose their access to Medicare. They should show up at these forums with big forms that state that they are leaving their government coverage in favor of the free market wolf packs. By renouncing it, they walk the walk, Medicare saves a bit of money, and if they end up with some crippling illness or accident, they can just go to the emergency room like so many other people. Screw em if they don’t like the taste of their own medicine.
You want a few alternative reforms, banterer? Here are a couple I’ve seen tossed around that seem to make a bit of sense.
1) Have insurance companies offer “cafeteria” plans, where people can choose their options for coverage.
2) Offer a minimal insurance plan that is more reflective of actual “insurance” — i.e. car, home, etc. No coverage for routine maintenance (whose car insurance covers oil changes? Whose homeowner insurance replaces shingles?), just major crises. This would be low-cost for those who are young, healthy, and don’t have a lot of discretionary income.
3) Allow insurers to compete across state lines more freely.
4) Reduce the incentive to sue for malpractice at the drop of a hat. (The “John Edwards Rule.”) This will get doctors away from practicing defensive medicine, ordering batteries of tests that aren’t completely necessary but they KNOW they will be asked about in court should something — anything — go wrong.
Recently, a friend of mine got very ill and was hospitalized. He was worried about facing a very large bill when he was released, as he only had the catastrophic coverage. Fortunately for him, he was New Hampshire’s 27th case of swine flu, and that triggered his coverage. He’s now weighing a more substantial plan when he gets to choose this fall. But for several years, he paid for just the bare-bones minimum and it worked out just fine for him.
Finally, banterer, I know of quite a few people who would willingly foreswear ever using Medicare themselves — under one condition: they be exempted from paying any more taxes into it. They have a similar feeling towards social security: I’ve heard one talk show host/newspaper columnist/gadfly say that he would cheerfully sign away all he’s paid into Social Security for about 40 years and never ask for a single dime — they can keep all he’s paid into the system — if they’ll just exempt him from paying any MORE in.
Sounds reasonable to me. What do you say, banterer?
J.
Sounds reasonable to me.
Wow. Shit you
thought ofparroted sounds reasonable to you. Alert the fuckin’ media, stat!Jay Tea, I got a couple questions for you.
How exactly would you accomplish numbers 1 and 2 of your plan? In other words, how would you “have” insurance companies do this, if they are not already doing them now?
As far as the SEIU goes… yeah, they organized these events
And then they let their own people inside!! Somebody call the cops!
Oh, another bit of planting: a guy showed up at a John Dingell event with an “Obama as Hitler” poster.
Then, later, seen handing out official Dingell literature.
Do you suppose Axelrod put him up to it? Or was it Obama hisself, Mr. Tea?
Seriously, a couple of Freepers can’t tell the black men apart? I’m so surprised!
3) Allow insurers to compete across state lines more freely.
Here’s interesting response to this proposal:
http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/triage/2008/10/purchasing-insu.html
So Jay Tea, how do you respond to this critique?
In a national insurance marketplace, insurance companies would have an incentive to seek out those states with the least amount of regulations, making it possible for them to provide cheap policies, granted, but at the price of adequate coverage and consumer protections.
State’s, of course, would also have an incentive to de-regulate more and more to compete for insurance industry tax dollars.
So in terms of coverage and consumer protections, you would definitely end up in a race to the bottom.
At the same time, what about the regulatory headache this would create? How would a person who lived in Kansas pursue a grievance against a company based in Texas? Would that not put an extra burden on the consumer trying to pursue a claim?
At some point, the federal government would have to step in to regulate this national market. Would it not?
4) Reduce the incentive to sue for malpractice at the drop of a hat.
Another coupla questiona, Jay Tea.
Are you in favor of allowing people to sue for malpractice as a general rule?
How would you reduce incentives to sue?
Jay Tea: I’ve heard one talk show host/newspaper columnist/gadfly say that he would cheerfully sign away all he’s paid into Social Security for about 40 years and never ask for a single dime — they can keep all he’s paid into the system — if they’ll just exempt him from paying any MORE in.
Sounds reasonable to me. What do you say, banterer?
Doesn’t sound at all reasonable to me. Lose out on 4 DECADES of contributions to save what he’d be paying in for the next, what? 20-30 years?
Terrible rate of return.
1) Have insurance companies offer “cafeteria” plans, where people can choose their options for coverage.
This exists. In fact, your friend had it, by only having catastrophic coverage. I could elect to drop vision or dental if I felt I might not need it, and this could apply to other parts of coverage.
2) Offer a minimal insurance plan that is more reflective of actual “insurance” — i.e. car, home, etc.
This also exists. Individual coverage – they offer it to young adults with no pre-existing conditions. Note that people who are not young adults, and/or already have a pre-existing condition, generally don’t qualify for that, and are forced to either go without, or pay for more expensive insurance, which sort of removes the utility of the coverage, as it’s not generally the young and healthy that most need coverage.
3) Allow insurers to compete across state lines more freely.
I’m pointing at faf’s article, and also noting that this would require doctors to work even harder to collect money from an out-of-state service, which can raise costs in other areas, as both insurers and doctors will need staff to wrangle those details to cover treatment. Plus, what may be admissible in one state may not be allowed to be covered in another; what to do then?
4) Reduce the incentive to sue for malpractice at the drop of a hat.
How would we do this exactly? Citizens have the right to pursue compensation for damages – limiting that might bring it down costs a little, but it also produces incentive for insurers to do less in their coverage. After all, why bother to fulfill your contract if no one is going to sue?
Seriously, your friend got lucky in how he got his care. What if instead of H1N1, he was diagnosed with testicular cancer? This is something he might have had diagnosed early on with regular check ups, but by the time ‘catastrophic’ kick in (maybe), it might be too late.
And your radio host? Nice, if you have the money and aren’t already on it. Not such a good deal if you’ve already signed on. I see the You Tube videos of these protests, and a good portion are older people, who would probably have Medicare at that time. And that’s not to mention that there’s younger people who use it for disabilities, such as diabetics. They are receiving the same government care they are rallying against. Your radio dude has a nice salary and a cushy plan no doubt, but if all that got dropped, he’d probably change his tune pretty fast.
The problems are not just getting costs lower, but getting the millions who are uncovered coverage. Millions can’t buy coverage because it’s too expensive, and millions more can’t get that coverage because they won’t qualify due to preconditions. The aim of health care reform is to provide for all these people so they can get treated properly and not suddenly show up at the state ER, costing everyone more money. We need to do better, and having screaming matches involving paranoid rumors about death panels and socialism isn’t helping.
Indeed: Dang, you caught me. I plagiarized them. And I thought I so cleverly concealed that by stating up front “Here are a couple I’ve seen tossed around that seem to make a bit of sense.”
faf: I’m not sure how to answer you when you’re not tossing out insults, but I’ll take a stab at it. Here’s one way: simply pass a law authorizing — but not mandating — it. Considering the alternative if the idea fails — ObamaCare pretty much puts them out of business — they’ll move heaven and earth to make them work, or come up with alternatives.
That’s the one silver lining here: the threat of ObamaCare makes a wonderful stick that will make them grab for pretty much any carrot.
Sean, you’re right — it is a bad deal for the consumer, as you put it. But said host/columnist says he expects to never see a single penny of it anyway — he believes Social Security will implement means-testing or go broke before he can start collecting, and is content with his own retirement planning.
By the way, “this guy” is Howie Carr, very well-paid right-winger extraordinaire. Why would you want to protect him from making what you consider a bad deal? If you’re right, only he suffers, while Social Security gains. Let him go.
faf: as far as your “race to the bottom” goes, that might happen. That might not. But the message selling ObamaCare is “the system is so broken, anything would be an improvement — even a hugely complicated 1,000-page bill that most lawmakers haven’t read and don’t understand.” Why not try some reforms that don’t utterly destroy a system that works for a majority of Americans as is?
Well, besides the fact that it’s simply easier to demonize some opponents instead of trying to fix things. After all, there are those rogue doctors out there yanking tonsils and cutting off feet for purely mercenary reasons, and that simply cannot stand.
J.
…and faf, back to the topic at hand, I’ll repeat my challenge: just how would you justify Oliver’s use of “astroturfing” in the headline?
You’ve pronounced yourself an expert on the definition. Kindly apply it here.
J.
Here’s one way: simply pass a law authorizing — but not mandating — it.
Non-mandated flexibility in health care packages? But how is that different than what’s available now? I just went to a California Blue Cross provider site and found 5 different possible plans each with a different premium covering different things. So maybe you could be more specific about what “it” is, then. If I don’t want to pay for a policy that covers maternity because I’m single, I don’t have to.
Are you suggesting that if I’m in my 20s I shouldn’t have to pay for insurance that covers heart disease?
Do you understand how that will impact the costs for everyone who’s in their 40s and up who are at higher risk for developing heart disease as younger people bail out of that coverage?
In other words, Jay Tea, have you thought about this at all?
faf: as far as your “race to the bottom” goes, that might happen. That might not.
This isn’t even close to an intelligent answer to the question, Jay Tea. Hell, you end your subsequent tangent by asking: “Why not try some reforms that don’t utterly destroy a system that works for a majority of Americans as is?”
Well, gee, Jay Tea, that might happen or it might not.
So once again, you seem to have put zero actual thought into your preferred “health care reform” proposals.
Did you even bother to research any of these ideas or did you just cut and paste them, as usual? There must be some answers to these questions out there, Jay Tea. Have you bothered to look for them?
And how about your malpractice policy? Do you support the right of people to sue doctors for malpractice? How would you limit that right to reduce incentives to sue?
Oh and by the way, Jay Tea, if a representative hasn’t read the entire bill by now, or at least had their freaking staff read it, or taken the time to try to understand it or have it fucking explained to them by someone who does, they don’t really have any business being in Congress do they? So I think it’s time to drop that little talking point, don’t you?
Well, besides the fact that it’s simply easier to demonize some opponents instead of trying to fix things. After all, there are those rogue doctors out there yanking tonsils and cutting off feet for purely mercenary reasons, and that simply cannot stand.
Sure, Jay Tea. It’s also apparently even easier to just flat out lie about something. Much as you did when you came here screaming about the euthanasia counseling that was in the bill. And once conservatives were confronted with their lies they went straight to arguing that pressure would be put on vulnerable people by doctors to voluntarily terminate their care. So please, Jay Tea, knock off the bullshit about demonizing doctors.
So all you’ve for for us so far Jay Tea are talking points and lies, neither of which you seem able to defend.
Typical.
faf, I see you’re still fixated on going after me. I was simplifying and dumbing down (for your sake) proposals put forth by such selfish ignoramuses as the CEO of Whole Foods.
As far as the tonsils and amputation references, I got those straight from President Obama.
At his July prime-time news conference:
“Right now, doctors a lot of times are forced to make decisions based on the fee payment schedule that’s out there. … The doctor may look at the reimbursement system and say to himself, ‘You know what? I make a lot more money if I take this kid’s tonsils out,’” Obama told a prime-time news conference.
“Let’s take the example of something like diabetes . . . a disease that’s skyrocketing, partly because of obesity, partly because it’s not treated as effectively as it could be.
“Right now . . . if a family care physician works with his or her patient to help them lose weight, modify diet, monitors whether they’re taking their medications in a timely fashion, they might get reimbursed a pittance. But if that same diabetic ends up getting their foot amputated, that’s 30,000, 40, 50,000 dollars immediately the surgeon is reimbursed.
“Well, why not make sure that we’re also reimbursing the care that prevents the amputation. Right? That will save us money.”
And I’m officially tired of chasing your wild geese all over the place. You asserted, very early on in this thread, that you had a far clearer grasp of “astroturfing” than I did. I responded by challenging you to give your definition of the term in the context that Oliver is using it in his headline. You’ve thrown everything except the kitchen sink (whoops, there’s that pesky sink!) out in attempts to avoid answering it.
Show just the slightest shred of integrity and honesty, faf. Answer that one.
J.
Dammit. Kindly insert this between the first and second italicized paragraphs:
And from his “town hall” in New Hampshire last week:
Sorry…
J.
Show just the slightest shred of integrity and honesty, faf. Answer that one.
Jay Tea, are you nuts? Oliver’s use of the term astrotur in the headline perfectly suits the definition of astroturfing. He used the word accurately.
You, on the other hand, seem to think astroturfing includes one woman (and three friends! OMG the conspiracy widens!) misrepresenting herself to a reporter after a town hall meeting or another Obama supporter crossing state lines to attend an Obama town hall.
Jay Tea, those are not examples of astroturfing.
Are we clear on this yet?
As for the rest of your non-response to my questions about the health care policies you say you support, all I can say is I’m not surprised that you can’t actually defend them in your own words. You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about.
John Mackey’s proposals for health care reform would do little more than shift costs away from companies and on to individuals; allow insurance companies to provide shittier coverage to those individuals. It would do little if anything about the uninsured or those with pre-existing conditions. Oh wait, right. He suggests charity for them. So basically, nothing, because people can already write charitable giving off their taxes and they already give to charities that provide health care for the poor.
Feel free to rebut any of those points, if you’d like, Jay Tea.
Oh and Jay Tea, what’s up with the Commentary gig? You get fired from there, too?
Jay Tea, are you nuts? Oliver’s use of the term astrotur in the headline perfectly suits the definition of astroturfing. He used the word accurately.
Circular Logic: see Logic, Circular.
Logic, Circular: see Circular Logic.
“it’s accurate because I say it’s accurate!”
You’ll forgive me if I don’t accept your assertion of infallibility based purely on your assertion of infallibility.
I asked you to give the definition of the term “astroturfing,” and apply it to the events described. Your response is to say “it’s accurate!”
Here’s a good starting point:
http://www.sundriesshack.com/2009/08/16/astroturfing-what-it-is-and-what-it-isnt/
I’m sure you think that’s a piss-poor article, but that just lowers the bar for you.
J.
Jay Tea, let me try again. According to the article you linked to, this is the definition of astroturfing:
According to this definition, you are using the term incorrectly. Why? because you’ve done nothing but cite individual instances of individuals doing things on their own in support of something. Your examples pretty much fail on every point to meet the definition.
Oliver uses the term accurately, however, because he clearly believes that the town hall protests are organized by corporate interests to give the appearance of grassroots activism.
So to recap: Your use is wrong. His use is accurate.
No, fafaroo, to recap: you continue to insist on being infallible. You are wrong.
Your assert Oliver is right, because he is representing what he believes. Bullshit. What you are asserting is that Oliver is sincere. He could be sincerely wrong — which I think he is.
The examples I have cited have a unifying element — high-level involvement in OFA, which sprang directly from the Obama campaign.
So, what is the unifying element behind the tea parties? What is the overarching organization or group that is coordinating things? Who’s pulling all this together?
In brief, who’s laying down the astroturf on the right?
Connect a few dots, faf. On your side, it seems to be Organizing for America, formerly Obama For America, which runs the web site http://www.barackobama.com.
I guess it it is a bit of a stretch to link the president to the web site, but I’m willing to go out on that limb…
J.
This is Kos, remember. These are the same assholes who pushed about 80% of the Palin lies.
But it was the Palin truths that fortunately came out. I mean look at her now and as a 2012 possibility. And what were those lies pushed by Kos?
Oh, buma. Let’s see:
Sarah Palin wasn’t Trig’s birth mother.
Sarah Palin cut funding for disabled students.
Sarah Palin cut funding for pregnant teenagers.
Sarah Palin ordered rape victims be charged for their “rape kits.”
And that’s just off the top of my head.
J.
Off to the real world for a few hours now. Faf, that ought to give you PLENTY of time to dig up something — anything — to back up Oliver’s charge of astroturfing, and find some way to spin all these OFA folks who keep popping up at public events, often with a cock and bull story to wrap around their sycophantic questions…
J.
The examples I have cited have a unifying element — high-level involvement in OFA, which sprang directly from the Obama campaign.
OMG, Jay Tea! You’re right! I can’t believe that this secretive, shadowy organization is pretending it isn’t sending Obama supporters to Obama events! Oh, wait …
http://my.barackobama.com/page/user/login?successurl=L3BhZ2UvZGFzaGJvYXJkL3ByaXZhdGU=&_h=R7eLleNlvR32IUbri4ek40kHrFI
“…and find some way to spin all these OFA folks who keep popping up at public events …”
It’s like you’re a complete idiot or something, Jay Tea.
And Jay Tea, when you get back, what’s up with the Commentary gig?
What’s up with the addictive behavior, fapper? Has your sponsor ok’d the kid stuff or doesn’t he have any better advice?
What’s up with the addictive behavior, fapper?
What’s all the recent lying Dennis?
Let’s pretend all of us all lying, fapper. No matter how many times you say it, and you’ve said it at least a hundred times in the last week, it won’t be enough to satiate you. The more you do it, the more you want to keep doing it.
It’s like a drug, isn’t it fap? One you’re powerless to quit.
What’s up with that?
The more you do it, the more you want to keep doing it.
Dennis, I might ask you why you’ve persisted in pushing lies but I know what’s up with that.
Sure you know, fapper. You’re infallible. You know everything.
Except how to quit.
Except how to quit.
You crying now, Dennis?
Oh, faf, nice try on eliding the essential elements here. The presence of the OFA folks isn’t the important thing; it’s the preferential treatment they get, it’s the fraud they commit, it’s the lies they tell unchallenged.
Ms. Mayer, it turns out, apparently isn’t even one of Ms. Jackson-Lee’s constituents. But that didn’t stop her from going there, lying about her being a doctor, and collecting laudations from all attending. And note that her two friends from OFA who attended with her didn’t say one word about her lies and misrepresentations — they went along with it just fine.
Makes me kind of wonder what other shenanigans are going on in other meetings around the nation. Mayer was too inept to completely pull off her scam (or too arrogant to think anyone would check, or both), but what others haven’t been uncovered?
J.
I guess he got fired from Commentary also. I know it can’t be because he mangled the definition of astroturfing. I’d go with gross incompetence, but how is that possible with Commentary?
The presence of the OFA folks isn’t the important thing; it’s the preferential treatment they get, it’s the fraud they commit, it’s the lies they tell unchallenged.
Jay Tea, you just don’t get it. OFA is actively and openly recruiting people to attend meetings on health care. It is actively, openly and quite obviously a pro-Obama organization.
If it is the organization putting on the event, why shouldn’t its members get special treatment?
You make it all sound so sinister, Jay Tea, but really, it isn’t.
Take a second to re-read this sentence of yours:
Jay Tea, you’re accusing Obama supporters from showing up at public events to support Obama. That’s not astroturfing, Jay Tea. Not according to the definition you yourself linked to above.
Neither, by the way, is telling people you’re a doctor when you’re not if you aren’t put up or paid to do it by an organization. Do you have proof that Mayer was told by OFA leaders to lie? If you do, let’s see it.
And Jay Tea, please don’t get all huffy about lies. You’ve spread lies yourself about health care reform here on this blog.
I ask about Commentary because I went over there to see if you were spreading the same lies there or if you had bothered to correct the record for your conservative brethren there once we pointed out your falsehoods here.
Seems like you haven’t posted there in a several weeks.
Jay Tea, don’t you think correcting the record on “death panels” is important enough for a post at your blog?
I was pretty sure that I mentioned the little known involvement of the DCI Group in the tea-bagger organization a few threads back.
Jay Tea: But said host/columnist says he expects to never see a single penny of it anyway — he believes Social Security will implement means-testing or go broke before he can start collecting, and is content with his own retirement planning.
The a reasonable approach would be to say “If I can stop paying in, you don’t have to give me anything more than I’ve already got coming to me after 40 years of contributions.” To just say he’d give up what he’s already got due him (or potentially due him, if he believes nothing will end up coming his way) is far, far from rational. And yet, you said it was.
Jay Tea: By the way, “this guy” is Howie Carr, very well-paid right-winger extraordinaire. Why would you want to protect him from making what you consider a bad deal?
Who said I did? Unlike many hypocritical conservatives, I believe folks do have the right to make their own mistakes.
All I did say was he wasn’t being reasonable/rational in his proposal.
fafaroo, is there a kitchen sink around here? Because you’ve used everything else to avoid answering one very simple question:
In the meantime, if you’d like to take up just how the Tea Parties and whatnot constitute “astroturfing” by some definition that you can cite as existing before this whole mess, I’d be FASCINATED to read it.
You’ve defended his use of it, you’ve justified it by saying that “it’s true because he really, really believes it,” but have yet to offer a definition of “astroturfing” and shown how it applies to the anti-ObamaCare people.
And I’m not holding my breath waiting for you to do so.
J.
Because you’ve used everything else to avoid answering one very simple question:
Jay Tea, Oliver’s use of the term in the headline is correct. You’re use of it in application to any of the examples you’ve cited is in correct. It’s really that simple.
And it seems to me now that there’s a question you’re avoiding. It’s also a very simple one:
What’s up with the Commentary gig?
…and why is Oliver’s use correct?
Oh, I see. Because he really, really believes it and you say so.
Bullshit. You CAN’T justify it, so you just keep repeating that it is true and hope that you bring up everything and anything else to hide that very relevant fact.
J.
Jay Tea, if a group of corporate lobbyists organize a group of people to attend town hall meetings but disguises its involvement to create the appearance of a grassroots movement, that’s astroturfing. That’s how Oliver was using the term.
You, on the other hand, are describing an openly pro-Obama organization openly working to support Obama’s legislative initiatives that’s openly inviting pro-Obama supporters to attend events that are either openly organized by Obama or open to the general public. That is not astroturfing. That’s openly organizing to openly support something.
It’s not that difficult. Or is it?
So, Jay Tea, you are no openly ignoring the question about Commentary.
So, from your silence, can we assume you got fired?
You can assume from my silence, faparoo, that I have no interest in discussing anything but the topic at hand with you.
OK, so after about umpteen requests, you’ve offered up a definition of “astroturfing.”
if a group of corporate lobbyists organize a group of people to attend town hall meetings but disguises its involvement to create the appearance of a grassroots movement, that’s astroturfing.
I’d quibble that it doesn’t necessarily have to involve lobbyists (David Axelrod was a PR guy, mainly), but that’s a fairly workable definition.
Now for part two: apply it here. Feel free to name names of the lobbyists, the corporations, and ties to the organizers.
Based on your past non-answers, I figure I’ll have to repeat this about six more times before there’s the slightest chance of you doing so.
And I’m not betting on that happening, either.
J.
You can assume from my silence, faparoo, that I have no interest in discussing anything but the topic at hand with you.
I’m going to go with fired then.
And Jay Tea, if you want to argue that the Tea party protests are not astroturf, have at it.
The topic at hand, whether you want to admit it or not, is your use of the term.
You were using it incorrectly, Oliver, correctly.
Why so tenacious on this, big fella?
And Jay Tea, if you want to argue that the Tea party protests are not astroturf, have at it.
I’m arguing that they are what they seem at face value. You’re the one arguing that their appearance is deceptive. In this case, the onus is on the anus — you’re making the assertion, you back it up.
Or Oliver, if he cares to.
I don’t particularly feel obligated or inclined to prove a negative — that there is no secret group behind the tea parties. I’ve never been that fond of trying to prove a negative.
So, in the absence of anything more definitive, I’m going to assume the reason you (and Oliver) call the tea parties “astroturfing” boils down to “I don’t like them, and it’s a bad word, so it’s true because we say so.”
Which seems a pretty damned fair summation of the arguments you’ve presented over the past three days…
J.
You can assume from my silence, faparoo, that I have no interest in discussing anything but the topic at hand with you.
Wow.
That sounds really familiar. Deja vu, man.
I’m going to assume the reason you (and Oliver) call the tea parties “astroturfing” boils down to “I don’t like them, and it’s a bad word, so it’s true because we say so.
That’s a nasty case of the galloping projections you got there, Mr. Tea. Somebody here was claiming that a little girl from Massachusetts was an example of “astroturfing” because he didn’t like what she had to say.
Oh, you got me, Quaker. All I cited in that case was a little girl brought across the state line by her mother, a big Obama donor and delegate, who managed to get into a very crowded, very popular event.
I find myself wondering if she and Mom drove, or rode a bus to the event?
http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090816/OPINION04/908159984/-1/opinion
But, at least in Portsmouth, it was not the anti-government, health care protest that looked manufactured. With charter buses dropping off crowds of protesters from other states, professionally printed signs and an AFL-CIO banner, it was the smaller group of pro-government health care protesters that had the appearance of corporate organization.
And Quaker, I notice you don’t want to talk about the delegation from OFA that showed up in Houston, with one of them impersonating a doctor…
I’ll wager you’re one of the people crying “astroturf!” at the tea parties and those opposing ObamaCare, Quaker. Do YOU have a single bit to back that up? It’s becoming more and more obvious that faf doesn’t, and Oliver’s moved on, content to let his baseless smear sit there…
J.
You’re the one arguing that their appearance is deceptive.
Wrong, Jay tea. I’m arguing that Oliver’s use of the term is accurate and yours was not. It’s really simple, Jay Tea.
Every you’ve called astroturf, actually isn’t. What Oliver referred to as astrotrufing — oil companies mobilizing a faux grassroots effort to defeat cap and trade — is.
Once again, Jay Tea, pro-Obama organizations and Obama supporters attending an event organized by Obama is not astroturfing. Not by any definition you’ve presented here.
In this case, the onus is on the anus …”
I think we know why you got fired from Commentary now …
All I cited in that case was a little girl brought across the state line by her mother, a big Obama donor and delegate, who managed to get into a very crowded, very popular event.
And you called it astroturfing. You were wrong.
And Quaker, I notice you don’t want to talk about the delegation from OFA that showed up in Houston, with one of them impersonating a doctor…
Very well. If you want to call that astroturfing, you’re wrong there as well. I have no idea why the young woman misrepresented herself. Neither do you. That doesn’t stop you from misapplying the astroturfing label.
I’ll wager you’re one of the people crying “astroturf!” at the tea parties and those opposing ObamaCare, Quaker.
You’ll “wager”? Don’t you know?
Do YOU have a single bit to back that up?
Back what up? Something you’re imagining that I might have said? Um, no Mr. Tea. I don’t.
It’s becoming more and more obvious that faf doesn’t, and Oliver’s moved on, content to let his baseless smear sit there…
Perhaps they both think you’re a big boy and can look up the reasons for Mr. Armey’s departure from DLA Piper all by yourself.
See, I know I mentioned the DCI Groups involvement in the Mobs Against Medicine at least twice now:
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/07/28/cppr-dci-astroturf/
No, faparoo, I said “closer to astroturfing.”
And apparently Oliver’s writing was far too subtle for you to grasp when he titled this “Oil Industry Plans To Imitate Tea Party Astroturf.”
Silly me, I read the headline and his ten words of his own (Is anything on the right actually real? The stupidity, maybe.) as him saying the Tea Parties were Astroturfed and not “real.”
Four days after that, banterer cites one liberal blog’s opinion that one group that opposes Obama’s health plan has some questionable ties — “DCI Group staffers acknowledged that they coordinate PR for the front group.” No word who they “front” for, or what DCI specifically does. And that group is focused on the health plan — the Tea Parties were loud and boisterous about the economic aspects first.
In the headline, Oliver specifically said the Tea Parties were astroturfed. In his article, he called them fake. And four days later, nobody has managed to back that up one whit.
HUGE surprise.
David Axelrod, if he knew about this, would be thrilled beyond belief.
J.