Video: Republican Tea Party Astroturfers Exposed
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Now that wasn’t so hard? Reporting can actually be more than stenography.
The supposed mom from down the block who was berating Congressman Kagen, turns out she’s a republican party official who worked for the candidate who lost to the congressman she’s berating.
Bwahahahaha
Gotta love Fox: “Here’s the town hall meetings list. We didn’t post any with Republican Congressmen, because you don’t want to try to intimidate them.”
Presidential statemsmanship past versus present
Adults.
In charge.
Oh yeah.
In before “Liberal media boohoohoo!”
How is it an attack on democracy and dissent to not want to hear from Newt Gingrich or other Republican douchebags who had the government from 2002 – 2006? Stop oppressing me?
Presidential statemsmanship past versus present
The national Bush campaign staff works through a local Republican office to assemble an audience of 1,000 to 2,500 people, depending on the site. The party offers registered party volunteers two tickets — and says more are available if volunteers want to bring open-minded friends.
Depending on the message Bush wants to put across, the local office also lines up some carefully chosen locals to take the stage with him and explain how Bush’s policies are helping them afford college, buy a home, save money on health insurance or expand a business. They are given “talking points” ahead of time.
The people chosen to tell their stories sometimes have to be prodded to hit the right notes. The president takes it all in good humor.
Twenty seconds on Google. You can’t be getting this much attention so I really don’t understand why Dennis enjoys looking like a fool so much here.
Seriously, El Cid, suppose Bush had blamed Clinton and Democrats for having allowed the environment for the types of underground terrorists that planned and executed 9/11, and then on the build-up of the case for going to war, had said “I don’t want the folks who created the mess to do a lot of talking. I want them to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess.”?
How do you suppose you would have reacted to that kind of a directive from the Bush then?
“President Bush will be in Minnesota Friday for his first visit since last year’s campaign. Bush will hold what’s being billed as a “conversation on Medicare” at the Maple Grove Community Center. Only ticket-holding invited guests will be allowed in. The White House won’t tell Minnesota Public Radio whether the Minnesota event is off limits to people who disagree with the president. Critics say many of the president’s appearances are open only to Bush supporters.”
Statesmanship!
“Three Denver residents yesterday charged that they were forcibly removed from one of President Bush’s town meetings on Social Security because they displayed a bumper sticker on their car condemning the administration’s Middle East policies.
The three, all self-described progressives who oppose Bush’s Social Security plan, said an unidentified official at an event in Denver last week forced them to leave before the president started to speak, even though they had done nothing disruptive, said their attorney, Dan Recht.
Initially, the three believed Secret Service agents had grabbed them and ushered them out of the auditorium, Recht said. But he said that Lon Garner, the Secret Service agent in charge of the Denver office, told them the service investigated the matter and found it was a “Republican staffer” who removed them because they had a “No More Blood for Oil” bumper sticker on their car.”
Statesmanship!
“The unceremonious ouster of three people from a recent White House Social Security event in Colorado has critics wondering how far President Bush will go to ensure friendly, sympathetic audiences at his town hall-style forums and rallies.
“He is the president, and regardless of affiliation, everybody should have the opportunity to go and see the president,” said Aaron Johnson, spokesman for Rep. Marilyn Musgrave, R-Colo. “It shouldn’t be the job of anybody to make sure the crowd is 100 percent sympathetic.””
Ssssssssssssssssssssssstatesmanship!
Twenty seconds, huh, Pollack? Guess the old adage that you get what you pay for holds true. Looking at your post makes me dizzy.
A lot of that is horseshit. I suppose you going to tell me Obama and his teleprompter speeches and townhalls have no staging whatsoever. I read an article like that in the WaPo a couple years ago about a Thanksgiving time appearance Bush was going to make at the Berkely Plantation along the James River just west of Williamsburg, that all of the attendees were picked ahead of time. Kind of had me scratching my head where the reporter got her information because I had been sent an email from one of my very liberal and very much Democratic friends in my neighborhood inviting any and all of us to attend, to just let her know. She was a Democrat and she didn’t ask what party any of us belonged to or if we like Bush at the time. Just ‘here, let me know if you’d like to attend’. Then the article, which several liberal blogs picked up and howled about, comes out saying it was a closed event with all hand-picked Bush supporters.
Don’t believe everything you read, young Polack. I’d be surprised if Ted Rall hasn’t already gone over that with you.
Oops, I missed an L in that last sentence on your name, Pollack. I apologize to you for that and to all people of Polish descent and anyone else who might mistakenly think I did that on purpose.
Oooh, rough morning, he’s going for the ad hominem real early today, folks. But that’s alright, Dennis just needs a pick-me-up with a few more examples of
Statesmanship!
Hey, you’re putting in a little more than twenty seconds, I see.
I thought Obama was supposed to transcend all that, though, Pollack. All that stuff was a thing of the past. Adults are in charge. Transparency rules. Hope and change and all that. Tears running down cheeks.
What happened?
“STFU” is what we’re getting.
‘Embrace conformity’ is what happened.
“get out the way” is what happened.
Real change, my friends.
Hmmmmm….. statesmanship?
Golly, I kinds liked the previous statesmanship a little better.
Dennis, you are a lying sack of shit.
Gee, August, I see you’re signing to the ringing endorsement of Obama that says “at least he’s somewhat marginally not as heinous as Bush.”
The Republicans doing this “planting” need to get their act together. When they can get a full 24% of the attendees. That’s the high bar, set by CNN for the CNN/Youtube Republican primary debate when that was the percentage of Democratic plants they got to ask their questions.
There’s an old saying: “never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.”
The same principle seems to hold for dirty politics.
J.
Cite one example, Mike. I don’t lie, my friend. You may not like what I write, but I don’t lie.
One thing I like about wingnuts, proving them wrong only steels their resolve, which creates a rather amusing cycle to watch.
Jay Tea:
“When you argue with an intelligent person, you can’t win…
Mike, August et al:
…but when you argue with a stupid person, you can’t stop.” –Vietnamese proverb
some old sayings are better than others.
[...] in the perennial race-to-the-bottom known as the Republican Party’s opposition strategy, from false-flag town hall operations to fearmongering, you’ll have heard, no doubt, of Palin’s charge that Obama’s [...]
Not only is it vast, right-wing and a conspiracy but they’re pooling war-chest monies from past elections to fund it. Can you say illegal use of campaign contributions with meticulous up-to-the-minute advisement on how to make it look like NO quid pro quo existed?
And the most frightening thing about watching these people pretend to use Saul Alinski books at their group-think Klan rallies and kleague meetings is this:
the worst you can ever expect from anti-war “leftist” protesters is the smashing of windows and shaving cream all over the windshield of corporate media trucks.
The worst you can realistically expect from these twerps? Murders.
I guess we found the one that that which just might put the cops on the side of the anti-war left. Having to deal with THESE menaces to society on a near-daily basis.
Wow! I can’t imagine what it would have been like if conservatives had actually tried to blame Democrats for the environment that lead to the events of 9/11, and then impuned their patriotism if they didn’t go along with the Bush administration’s “security” policies afterward. Thank god that never happened.
And when did yelling over people trying to have a discussion or lying about policy or just being a gullible stooge repeating lobbyist talking points stop being protected by the first amendment? What’s next, complaining about these folks’ second amendment right to arm themselves when they come to protest healthcare reform?
And the liberals were mean to Bush. Also.
Pretty much expected that response, just didn’t think it’d be you, rip. You said conservatives. I asked how’d you’d respond if Bush repeatedly, over and over and over again actually, had blamed 9/11 and said you fucked up things that allowed it to happen, and that he wished all those responsible, not him mind you, would just STFU and get out the way.
I honestly didn’t think anyone would answer that question, much less honestly, that I’d get yours and Pollack’s kinds of responses. And that someone else (freD) would say that you guys proved something.
Dennis:
I’m going to ignore the implicit lie – the Clinton administration took terrorism seriously. I’ll just say this:
Iraq had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks.
(What’s that? You think you heard me call you a moron, for repeating bullshit that’s been discredited, even among Republican party faithful, for *years* now? Heaven forbid! No, I merely thought it so loud that you probably picked it up from my expression. Without having to see it. And with us an unknown distance apart. Loud thoughts, I must admit… but look at the provocation.)
Ok, and the Bush administration wasn’t solely responsible for the financial crisis, or with ‘creating the mess’. And healthcare didn’t cause the mess either.
No matter what scenario you can come up with, if Bush had told Dems to get out the way, you guys would’ve been going absolutely berserk.
Yes, you would have.
“I don’t want the folks who created the mess to do a lot of talking. I want them to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess.”
–(Obama on health care protestors, Friday).
Dennis, I’ve seen the video and read a bunch of blog posts, all of which seem to be linking to one another with the same snippet.
Please point to some evidence, context or actual words that Obama was talking about health care protestors and not Republicans in the Senate and Congress.
I don’t blame the people disrupting the town halls, demanding they be shut down, and trying to threaten the congressmen. I don’t condone it, and I don’t think it’s right, but if you look at it from the republican perspective, I understand it.
The protestors think that the government is going to euthanize them and their parents in order to give health coverage to illegal aliens. Sarah Palin has openly worried that the Obama health care plan would result in killing Trig. The Republicans are saying this and many people are believing it. So of course they’re outraged. It’s likely that Dennis and Jay are convinced that they are just fighting to make sure that they survive the Obama administration ,which they are being convinced is being led by a Kenyan Muslim Fundamentalist.
So it’s logical from their perspective: it’s based on lies and it’s being taken advantage of in order to create violence and disorder to threaten the representatives who defeated the Republican party in the elections, but it’s logical. Dennis, Jay, and Jay Tea are just convinced that they’re fighting against state-ordered execution. They really don’t know any better, and their natural violent, resentful instincts have taken over.
Interestingly, policies that Actually resulted in people dying, lying the misguided Iraq war, they were silent about. I’m not saying they have good judgment. These are the people whose lives are defined by their poor moral judgments and political failures in life. And now they think they have something to say about health care! It’s kind of cute in its own way if it weren’t for the Brooks Brother Rioting.
Cite one example, Mike. I don’t lie, my friend. You may not like what I write, but I don’t lie.
Dennis is not lying. He’s just really, really naive and stupid.
http://www.oliverwillis.com/2009/08/07/swastikas-sighted-at-anti-healthcare-gop-mob/#comment-169373
Dennis, here’s a question for you.
Does the health care bill call for a patient, a doctor AND members of the medical review board to meet to discuss “when the government will stop paying for your health care”?
Yes or no.
Palin and Gingrich as the lead spokespeople for the Republicans against the health care reform, oh thank you Cheezuz. We couldn’t ask for better right wing failures to be the mouth of the opposition.
Couple these two nitwits with an army of slobbering angry old white people, and you have what’s left of the GOP in 2009.
And the cooler and calmer Obama is, the more it drives them totally insane.
“leave health insurance CEOs alone!”-con trolls to Rachel
Here is an article from the American Conservative on the Bush administrations attitude towards protesters in 2001-2003. Apparently there were even some on the right who found it disturbing.
http://www.amconmag.com/article/2003/dec/15/00012/
Included is an ellipsed version of the AG John Ashcroft’s vetted statement to the Senate Judiciary Committee
“Our legal powers are targeted at terrorists.
To those who scare peace-loving people with
phantoms of lost liberty, my message is this:
Your tactics only aid terrorists, for they
erode our national unity and diminish our
resolve. They give ammunition to America’s
enemies and pause to America’s friends.”
Of course under Dennis’ rules – if he wants to make a point it doesn’t matter how off-topic he goes – but if you comment on his posts – you must explicitly address his questions.
But his parallel is based on the incorrect assumption that Obama’s “I don’t want the folks who created the mess to do a lot of talking. I want them to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess” comment was directed at anti-healthcare reform protesters – when a contextual reading makes it clear that he is being talking about economic policy, but why let the facts ruin a good argument.
And here is a 2005 quote from GWB concerning Democrats and economic policy
“On issue after issue, they stand for nothing except obstruction, and this is not leadership. It is the philosophy of the stop sign, the agenda of the roadblock, and our country and our children deserve better.
Political parties that choose the path of obstruction will not gain the trust of the American people. If leaders of the other party have innovative ideas, let’s hear them. But if they have no ideas or policies except obstruction, they should step aside and let others lead.”
But as it doesn’t blame ant-war protesters for 9/11 – I guess Dennis won’t see how it is germane.
Who’s the new dude on MSNBC?
Dennis! How’s your mother-in-law? What lies have you told her today? Keep her scared!
I am terrified that Obama will cancel the Constitution and order Hillary Clinton to send a Russian-UN invasion force using black helicopters following the bar codes on the backs of stop signs in order to set up FEMA death panels to mind control teenagers into having gay abortions. Why won’t the liberals take our issues and concerns seriously?
Shorter Oliver: It’s OK if if you’re a Democrat.
Vitter holds town hall with pre-screened attendees. Guess someone didn’t want to get any questions about the cost of diapers.
Meanwhile, the Obamoids are paying people to show up at these meetings:
http://www.redstate.com/absentee/2009/08/09/lets-talk-astroturf/
J.
Meanwhile, the Obamoids are paying people to show up at these meetings:
Jay Tea, you’re either being purposely dishonest because you think it’s an amusing talking point, or you have gone completely insane.
This is a case where you need to let the toddlers have their tantrum play out. After having been convinced that they were the “real Americans,” they haven’t yet been able to deal with the fact that the “fake, traitorous Americans” took over, and meanwhile you have the mischievous aunts and uncles in the form of Sarah Palin, Dick Armey, and Newt Gingrich egging on the tantrums for their own shits and giggles, telling the toddler that someone is going to kill their favorite grandma. If I were a toddler, I’d probably be throwing a tantrum, too.
Redstate? This is getting downright silly. But since I’m bored… who’d be funding such a thing?
Meanwhile, the Obamoids are paying people to show up at these meetings:
EXCLUSIVE: EVENTS HOSTED BY PROGRESSIVE GROUPS PAYING PROGRESSIVES TO WORK AT EVENT – MUST CREDIT REDSTATE.COM!!!!1!!!1!
Yes, they’re that stupid. Is finding a link on RedState and just hoping it’s actually what you want it to be what you think it is your thing now, Jay?
HOLY SHIT WHERE IS REDSTATE ON THIS: The Republican Party is trying to recruit thousands- perhaps MILLIONS- of people to work for them. IT’S “ASTROTURF” GONE CRAZY! Boy I sure hope I don’t look like a fucking idiot freaking out about this!
Someone’s hiring in this economy? THAT IS BREAKING NEWS!!!!!!
No matter what scenario you can come up with, if Bush had told Dems to get out the way, you guys would’ve been going absolutely berserk.
Except that he DID say that. “Stay the Course(TM)”? Remember that? Of course you don’t, what with being born yesterday and all.
No, I didn’t take the RedState article at face value. I did precisely what they said they did — go to Craig’s List, punched in DC jobs, and searched for Obama.
/washingtondc.craigslist.org/doc/npo/1309501745.html
Anyone care to cite a comparable ad offering to pay people to pull together tea parties?
Plus, the anti-Obamacare people all seem to have home-made signs, while the pro-Obamacare folks all seem to have copies of the same few professionally-designed and professionally-printed signs. Which one seems more professional and pre-planned and coordinated?
J.
Jay Tea, as I said, you’re either being purposely dishonest because you think it’s fun to make a point, or you’re completely detached from reality.
Meanwhile you have Palin and Newt convincing an angry mob that Obama is going to kill their grandparents to give health care to illegals. I understand why the right-wingers are lashing out with rage. Their behavior makes perfect sense. They’re also being lied to and angry because after being told that they’re the only “real Americans,” a bunch of people they were indoctrinated to believe were traitors have won an election.
I did precisely what they said they did — go to Craig’s List, punched in DC jobs, and searched for Obama.
You searched specifically for DC jobs, found one that specifically says positions in DC, and concluded it’s positions sending people to town halls across the country? Alright.
Plus, the anti-Obamacare people all seem to have home-made signs, while the pro-Obamacare folks all seem to have copies of the same few professionally-designed and professionally-printed signs. Which one seems more professional and pre-planned and coordinated?
Hmmm, I would have to say the professionally printed signs look more professional than the non-professionally printed signs. Was that a riddle?
This is so awesome. Republicans are complaining that Democrats are more organized. That just made my year.
Uh-huh, and you guys went freaking berserk on that one, didn’t you.
This one was easy, you guys went berserk on just about everything the guy said.
The main difference between organizing and astroturf is transparency. I know who’s behind this job offer, the public town hall meetings and much of the rest of the work on health care reform.
On the rioters side, this is not so clear. Can you tell me who paid for the busses to transport all these folks from out of district? Who paid for the media buys and ads? Who’s sponsoring op eds in the local newspaper? Probably not. When you can, it’s usually to a group who popped out of nowhere, complete with organization and funding. And then, if you dig heard enough, there’s usually a lobbying group funding everything on the sly. Google ‘DCI Group’ for a nice little example.
It’s one thing to bring an organization into a topic. It’s another to hide your engagement to make it look like something it isn’t. Town halls on health care have been going on for years, and now it’s a hot topic. How many of these disruptors have ever been to one before? How many even cracked a book on this subject? These people have been riled up on the word of a right wing media and a slick PR campaign funded by corporate lobbyists.
And they know that a public option is popular now. So they want to weaken it through every way they can. They may well succeed – and with the exception of some Bastards in Suits, that’s to everyone’s loss.
Jay Tea, you’re either being purposely dishonest because you think it’s an amusing talking point, or you have gone completely insane.
We’ve given the benefit of the doubt for long enough. Jay Tea, Dennis and SaveFarris are lying when they link to debunked talking points. That makes them liars.
This one was easy, you guys went berserk on just about everything the guy said.
Turns out they were right to. The fact that you mindlessly supported him the whole way makes me pretty sure you’re on the wrong side of this dispute, too. It’s so funny when loyal Bush supporters expect to be taken seriously in this day and age.
This one was easy, you guys went berserk on just about everything the guy said.
You’re right. We should’ve just laughed and shrugged off the death of thousands of American troops, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, and the displacement of millions of Iraqis. Our bad.
“I don’t want the folks who created the mess to do a lot of talking. I want them to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess.”
–(Obama on health care protestors, Friday).
Dennis, you dug up anything yet to support your little parenthetical here?
I didn’t mindless support him. John Kerry was a joke. You know it, I know it, and America knows it. Now, four years ago, and back in the late 60′s too.
We should’ve just laughed and shrugged off the death of thousands of American troops, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, and the displacement of millions of Iraqis. Our bad.
You don’t quite get it: cheering on stupid wars was just part of the “game” in “pissing off liberals.” Following Bush off a cliff and advocating for his talking points was just a means of venting their anti-liberal rage. If it hurt the country and killed people, well, I don’t think that was an issue very prominent in their minds. “Showing the liberals who’s boss” was foremost in their minds, even if it meant making Sarah Palin vice president, and even if it means shouting down some town hall meetings with stories about killing your parents to give money to illegal immigrants. Saying you oppose a public option is just a political point. Saying that “you liberals are going to euthanize people!” serves the actual goal of “sticking it to those liberals.”
Dennis, the appropriate response was actually, “Yes, I’m sorry, I made an error with that. Bush turned out to be worse than I expected, and I just thought screaming against Gore and Kerry would finally put those damned liberals in their place.” You should not be digging in your heels over your past mistakes, because otherwise it’s just more evidence that we should not take moral failures and cowards like yourself seriously.
You failed: you adhered to false beliefs. You followed Bush off a cliff because it satisfied the angry resentments you harbored as a “real American.” You consistently chose the inferior person over the superior one. Now you and a bunch of angry people are screaming that Obama is going to euthanize your parents and children to give health care to illegal immigrants. This is just another symptom of your unseriousness and another sign that you’re once again advocating policies that make the country worse off, not better off. Your consistent behavior actually outs you as someone not to be taken seriously. No one “took your country away from you.” The country simply saw what people like you would do to it and rejected that. Digging in your heels isn’t going to help.
Tyro, you guys would’ve gone berserk too if Bush had set up a website and told you to report any emails or information of a fishy nature about anything, much less something as important as the health care bill. Now it’s interesting to watch all you guys mindlessly shill for Obama and what he ‘meant’ when he said that. You guys here mindless support him in far greater measures than Bush supporters ever did.
Now it’s interesting to watch all you guys mindlessly shill for Obama and what he ‘meant’ when he said that.
Dennis, really hates it that the administration is serious about countering lies and distortions about the health care bill: How is he supposed to keep his mother in law living in fear if the truth gets out?
Dennis, changing the subject: you fucked up and supported Bush. The proof was in the pudding: Bush really was making bad decisions. Any reasonable person sees what Obama is doing and says. “Hm, ok.” You freak out into a rage and/or look at it as a way to “get back” at liberals. That and the right-wing does not have many “reasonable people.” THey’re taking their cues from Rush Limbaugh who has been on a tear in order to whip you up into a frothy rage. You saw that the liberals were right about Bush, and acting like a dishonest, rageful liar about Obama is your “revenge.” It doesn’t actually work that way: You only get to freak out about bad presidents, but we’ve already established that you are too much of a moral coward to do that.
Tyro, please get over yourself and the roll you think you’re on. I’ve been in these conversations a thousand times….. “Bush sucks, you supported him and his evil ways… blah, blah, blah”.
I’ve been in these conversations a thousand times…
There’re so much easier for you than the ones when you have to back up your statements with facts, aren’t they?
I’ve been in these conversations a thousand times
Good lord, do we all know.
He’s cracking.
[...] The Republican response? Obstruction. Violence. Fakery (to put it nicely). Stupidity. Incoherence. But no real plan for fixing health care. But then again, the blue dog [...]
Dude, he cracked a while ago.
The main difference between organizing and astroturf is transparency. I know who’s behind this job offer, the public town hall meetings and much of the rest of the work on health care reform.
On the rioters side, this is not so clear. Can you tell me who paid for the busses to transport all these folks from out of district? Who paid for the media buys and ads? Who’s sponsoring op eds in the local newspaper? Probably not. When you can, it’s usually to a group who popped out of nowhere, complete with organization and funding. And then, if you dig heard enough, there’s usually a lobbying group funding everything on the sly. Google ‘DCI Group’ for a nice little example.
Good questions, Tyro. So, who hired these day laborers? Who paid for the design and printing of their signs?
wizbangblog.com/content/2009/08/09/grassroots-vs-astroturf-in-pictures.php
It really seems beyond your grasp to conceive that there are actual real, individual people out there who have come to the conclusion that they don’t want Obamacare, and are acting on their own — without unions, without “community organizers,” without non-profit foundations, without some kind of centralized leadership — to express their opinions.
And there are so damned many of them, you’re desperate to deligitimize them. They can’t be acting on their own; they HAVE to be the pawns (willing or unknowing) of Big Pharma or Big Insurance or something.
Who’s paying for the buses? In my case, when I attended a tea party, I drove myself and my homemade sign. In another (North Dakota), a local talk station chartered the bus, then sold tickets.
I’ll repeat: for the Pelosi event, who paid for the signs of the pro-Obamacare posters? Who paid the day laborers?
I suspect the SEIU. They have a history of outsourcing. They’ve hired day laborers to walk picket lines in place of their members. Their own employees had to sue the SEIU for unfair labor practices. But dammit, they spent millions and millions on Obama’s election. They bought that presidency, and they intend to get their money’s worth.
J.
“But dammit, they spent millions and millions on Obama’s election.”
I know — at the end McCain only had on a loincloth, and he traveled around the country on foot since his campaign pledged not to take donations of any kind. I mean, it’s not like Sarah Palin got a quarter of a million dollars worth of clothing or anything like that!
I thought you wing-nuts were opposed to McCain-Feingold anyways.
They’re just good capitalists, Jaim — they spent their money on getting Obama elected, and they want a return on that investment. I don’t begrudge them that.
And Obama is showing himself an honest politician — “once he’s bought, he stays bought!” At least until it proves inconvenient, and then it’s under the bus with you!
I disagree with their goals and methods, cheerfully point out their hypocrisy, and denounce them whenever given the opportunity — but pointing out that they spent a lot of money on the election, and want something for it? That’s just stating a fact. An inconvenient truth, perhaps, but truth nonetheless.
J.
….meanwhile, back to the original discussion; this comment was posted on the “I am the mob” youtube video link:
“This bill will also give them the ability to say who lives and who dies all in the name of cutting down costs.”
You could download Ms Maddow’s commentary directly into some folk’s brains and they STILL wouldn’t get it. WTFO?!?!? Seriously, how can people be so dense?………
“They’re just good capitalists, Jaim — they spent their money on getting Obama elected, and they want a return on that investment. I don’t begrudge them that.”
You obviously do. It’s painfully obvious that you do.
I imagine in Jay-land, a wealthy Republican investor writing a check for five grand is an act of political free speech (I’d actually agree that it is, myself). But a working-class union guy who spends some of his free time with an organizing group is somehow hatefully Socialist or some such b.s.
People have a right to make political statements, but they don’t have a right to actively disrupt and/or preclude political events like the wing-nuts are doing wherever Democratic politicians are speaking.
Just burns you, doesn’t it? How working people have turned against the GOP in droves, and turned it into the Southern, aging white male rump party?
And there are so damned many of them, you’re desperate to deligitimize them.
Jay Tea, when they start shouting things at town hall meetings about Nazis and eugenics they deligitimize themselves.
For my money, I could careless if they’re showing up on their own or if they’re being organized by some lobbying group.
Most of them aren’t dealing in facts. Most of them have been woefully misinformed by the people they turn to for “news”.
And Jay Tea, you know you’re also to blame for that.
You’ve tried to spread lies about the health care bill here and you’ve been corrected repeatedly.
You don’t say anything about advanced care counseling now do you?
And yet have you bothered to correct others from the platform you have at Commentary?
No.
So you’re culpable, Jay Tea, in keeping people misinformed. In lying to people. To playing on people’s fears and stoking their anger.
So Jay Tea, you’re the one who’s really helping to deligitimize these people because you won’t give them the actual facts of the health care bill.
Why is that Jay Tea?
And Obama is showing himself an honest politician — “once he’s bought, he stays bought!” At least until it proves inconvenient, and then it’s under the bus with you!
Jay Tea, don’t ever talk about honesty here. See above. You know that what many health care opponents are saying about the advanced care counseling isn’t true. You know this because we pointed it out to you when you time you tried pushing that bullshit here.
But I haven’t seen any posts of yours at Commentary correcting this mistake.
So please, Jay Tea, don’t talk about honesty around here.
We know you’re a lying sack of shit.
“I think the president welcomes the fact that we are a democracy and people in the United States, unlike Iraq, are free to protest and to make their case known.”
–(White House statement on anti-war protestors, 2002).
As long as it’s from behind a 20×20 chain-link fence, or “free-speech zone” two blocks away from the President.
Stop it, just stop.
How do the tea partiers have so much free time? If I took the day off from work to go to a “tea party” I’d be fired, and I’d have to kick my own ass for being a grown man saying sh*t like “tea party”.
Another thing, conservatives always assume they’re oozing with credibility, and they can make outlandish unsourced claims about SEIU buying the president, or “death panels”, euthanizing grandma and so on. Even after they’re caught making things up, they just go right along pumping out more sketchy claims.
Holy cats, Mr. Tea. You’re reaching way up your butt for “facts” now.
How did you conclude that the ad being trumpeted by the Red State clowns were designed to raise a crowd for Ms. Pelosi’s appearance in Denver?
That’s a leap Dick Fosbury would have been proud of.
I don’t understand the arguments here. This journalist is saying that because someone is Republican they’re not allowed to stand-up and have their voice heard. That somehow because someone has voted, campaigned, or even worked for a Republican, they now are a part of a HIRED mob and work for the big lobbying groups. Does this mean that anyone who campaigned fervently for Obama last fall, no longer can have an opinion on the issues?
And as far as the “Death Panel” is concerned. When Obama says, “[Americans] will have to give up treatments that will not make them well,” who decides this? What about end-of-life care? What about care for those with disabilities? None of these make a person well, but they do affect quality-of-life. What about experimental treatments, or treatments that work for a small minority, but not everyone?
As a father of a 4 year old daughter with cerebral palsy, I don’t believe that men in suits will show up to slaughter my daughter, if this bill passes. But I do believe, that the government will be forced to evaluate what care options my daughter has, when in the end, very little can be done to make her “well”. Therapy, nutritional supplements, durable equipment, and a great deal of other care is all covered today by our insurance with little to no waiting. However, when it was recommended by her orthopedist to go through a government agency to get her wheelchair, we gave up after nearly a year of waiting. Through a provider covered by our insurance provider, Aetna, we had it in 3 weeks.
Anytime the government takes over something this large…choices have to be made. There’s not enough money to cover everybody with everything. A elderly citizen facing a life-threatening illness is simply NOT going to receive the care that a 20-something would receive, as the government has to make tough choices to ensure that the funds are adequate at the end of the year.
Furthermore, there’s only so many providers. In the UK, they are working towards a guarantee of 18 weeks to provide treatment. Think about that. 18 weeks before chemo can begin, 18 weeks before rehab therapy can start, 18 weeks before the mastectomy…and that’s what they’re working towards, they’re not there yet.
As always, I’m not saying that there aren’t problems with the current system, but tell me how government makes it better? Go to your local DMV, or better yet, your local SSA office, and tell me how it’s run. Then picture that your doctor’s office.
When it goes to governmetn
Anyway, keep this up. There may be a few “hired guns” out there, but the majority of people shouting “BOO” at these events, are everyday, middle Americans. Many even voted for your President. They’ve watched as the government has started putting their hands into everything, and now they’ve had enough.
Keep calling us mobs, Nazis, or other derogatory terms because that’s really debating the issues. You’re playing the Alinsky playbook, page by page…
5. “Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon. It is almost impossible to counteract ridicule. Also it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage.”
I love how many right-wingers are suddenly pretending they knew the name Alinsky before a week ago. I’d love to see the traffic stats spike for his entry on Wikipedia.
Oh, this is the best part though:
Through a provider covered by our insurance provider, Aetna, we had it in 3 weeks.
Good to hear that. Since the Obama plan won’t restrict you from keeping Aetna as your provider in any way, I have no idea what you’re so upset about.
don’t understand the arguments here. This journalist is saying that because someone is Republican they’re not allowed to stand-up and have their voice heard.
That’s not what Ms. Maddow said, IJtRWM. She said that some of the people involved aren’t telling the truth about their political connections. They can have their voice heard. It would be nice if their voice was telling it straight.
As always, I’m not saying that there aren’t problems with the current system, but tell me how government makes it better?
Under the current proposal, Aetna, United, and all the other big insurers continue to do business. If you get your health insurance through your employer, your employer can still offer the same plan from the same provider.
If you buy your own coverage from an insurance provider now, you’ll buy it through a health insurance exchange under the new plan. Insurance companies will bid for the right to offer coverage through the exchange but the plans they offer will have to meet minimum coverage. During the first year, companies with fewer than 10 employees will be able to buy insurance through the exchange, but they won’t be required to do so. In the second year, companies with up to 20 employees will be eligible to purchase from the exchange.
The current bill also includes a “public option” offered through the exchange. The public option is health insurance offered by the government. That coverage will have to meet the same standards as the plans offered by companies through the exchange. People who can’t afford to pay the full premium will be able to get discounted rates.
So back to your question: how does the government make it better? By making insurance more affordable for everyone and more available to those who don’t have it now.
So what’s the problem?
“A elderly citizen facing a life-threatening illness is simply NOT going to receive the care that a 20-something would receive, as the government has to make tough choices to ensure that the funds are adequate at the end of the year.”
That’s an absurd statement. What are you basing that on??
“A elderly citizen facing a life-threatening illness is simply NOT going to receive the care that a 20-something would receive, as the government has to make tough choices to ensure that the funds are adequate at the end of the year.”
Of course not. 20-somethings generally don’t need major medical procedures.
—Obama says, “[Americans] will have to give up treatments that will not make them well”—
I’m at a loss why people KEEP taking this paraphrase of his statement out of context and then trying to use it as a talking point against govt healthcare reform.
I think this article:
http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=bf602cf2-dbf1-4c93-b168-3708dc4154e3
by Jonathan Cohn in TNR (sorry Oliver) expounds on Obama’s statement in the context he intended…
Good to hear that. Since the Obama plan won’t restrict you from keeping Aetna as your provider in any way, I have no idea what you’re so upset about.
Are you really that naive? Employers have to manage these health insurance plans. Do you really believe they’re going to risk fines for properly interpreting 1,100 pages of legislation when they’ll actually be able to save admin costs and internal bureaucracy by switching their employees to the government plan. Employers will be dropping their health insurance coverage quicker than anyone imagined. Within 5 years, there will be no more employer health coverage. And that’s the goal.
I love how many right-wingers are suddenly pretending they knew the name Alinsky before a week ago.
Actually, I’ve known of Saul Alinsky for over 20+ years. Studied him in college, even wrote papers and stuff
Thought he was pretty cool during my more idealistic college days. I even apply some of his teachings to the business world, but often find they don’t work as well, when capitalism is involved.
Never mind…we’ll be fine. Government health care will be run like the post office.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XTi-WdOu2s&feature=player_embedded
That’s comforting.
I’m at a loss why people KEEP taking this paraphrase of his statement out of context and then trying to use it as a talking point against govt healthcare reform.
Why is it anytime someone attempts to use a liberal’s words against them, they’re always out of context. Those words speak volumes.
What makes one person well, may not make another person well. Some treatments don’t make a person well at all. They only improve their quality of life. Sure he talks about reducing administrative costs and bureaucracy. When has the government EVER reduced bureaucracy? EVER?!?!
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/87xx/doc8758/MainText.3.1.shtml#1077199
You want me to believe that a government that has virtually every entitlement program going bankrupt right before our very eyes, is ready to take on something this big, and make it run better. Yes, I’m sure that the same government that brings you $400 toilet seats and the IRS tax code. Sure this will be simple, intuitive, and not harm anyone.
Employers will be dropping their health insurance coverage quicker than anyone imagined.
Small employers, maybe. The House bill phases in elibility for small companies to purchase health care insurance for their employees on an exchange. The exchange will offer a “public option” in addition to coverage offered by health insurance companies.
Companies that buy insurance on the exchange will still have responsibility for adminstering the plan for its employees. With the “public option,” administration of the plan might become simplified, but the employer will still play a major role.
If a company chooses to stop offering health care insurance to employees altogether and sends them to the exchange to purchase individual insurance, the employer will have to pay a payroll tax.
A timeline for larger employers to purchase health insurance from the exchange is not outlined in the bill. It’s to be determined at a later date.
Quaker in a Basement…the New York Times (that blatantly right-wing puppet) put it this way:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/10/health/policy/10facts.html
[Assurances that Americans will keep the insurance they have now] reflect an aspiration, but may not be literally true or enforceable.
The legislation does not require insurers or employers to continue offering the health benefits they now provide. The House bill sets detailed standards for “acceptable health care coverage,” which would define “essential benefits” and permissible co-payments. Employers that already offer insurance would have five years to bring their plans into compliance with the new federal standards.
The Senate health committee bill goes somewhat further by offering an “option to retain current insurance coverage.”
The legislation could have significant implications for individuals who have bought coverage on their own. Their policies might be exempted from the new standards, but the coverage might not be viable for long because insurers could not add benefits or enroll additional people in noncompliant policies.
Dallas L. Salisbury, president of the Employee Benefit Research Institute, a private nonpartisan group, said: “The president and Democrats in Congress are saying what they would like. Their promises may not be literally true because your health plan may change, and your doctor may no longer accept your insurance.”
The fact is that what is defined as “minimum insurance” and the inability to deny pre-existing conditions will either bankrupt the private insurers or take their premiums out of reach for most Americans.
Besides, if the government requires insurers to accept all customers and charge roughly the same price, regulates all aspects of their marketing to make sure they aren’t discriminating, and then redistributes the profits to make sure that no company gets penalized unfairly, in what sense is the industry still “private”?
By 2012, all middle class and lower income Americans will be on the government plan. Of course, everyone will still have the “choice” of private healthcare, but only the rich will be able to afford it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2jijuj1ysw&feature=PlayList&p=D4D67C0C404DCFCC&index=2
QitB, oooh, a payroll tax. I’m sure the big corporations won’t want to pay that. No, it would probably be much easier to pay a whole department to ensure that all the new legislation is being met and that all employees are correctly/adequately covered. More salaries, headcount, and a whole new line-item on the P&L.
Remember, EBITA (earnings before interest, taxes, and amortization) drives more executive compensation & bonuses than bottom-line profit. Executives will jump at the chance to put all benefit coverage into the taxes line-item. Then they’ll reduce workforces, raise prices, and decrease quality to restore profits.
Never mind…we’ll be fine. Government health care will be run like the post office.
Ha ha! Good one!
Maybe it will be run like the VA, dickweed.
Keep calling us mobs, Nazis, or other derogatory terms because that’s really debating the issues. You’re playing the Alinsky playbook, page by page…
Um, I’m pretty sure it’s your leader (Rush Limbaugh) who is repeatedly calling Obama a Nazi and Hitler. And is your team not acting like an angry mob? Have you not seen the videos?
No, it would probably be much easier to pay a whole department to ensure that all the new legislation is being met and that all employees are correctly/adequately covered. More salaries, headcount, and a whole new line-item on the P&L.
A whole new line item? No, most large companies have that department in place today. They ensure that existing regulations are met and that all employees are correctly and adequately covered (or that their decision to decline coverage is properly documented.)
It’s called a “Human Resources Department”.
The fact is that what is defined as “minimum insurance” and the inability to deny pre-existing conditions will either bankrupt the private insurers or take their premiums out of reach for most Americans.
Really?
Do you have evidence of this? Or is it supposed to simply be a given?
Jaim, let me answer your question by first saying that perhaps you’re right. I can’t find anything that blatantly states will be taking elderly citizens and hooking them up with Dr. Kevorkian once their prognosis looks bleak.
With that said, in every instance of public health care, there is one commonality. Waiting. Will there be more urgency for a younger person sharing a common illness with someone older, can’t say for certain.
But a 20-something facing a rare case of pneumonia might be able to wait for the penicillin to get better. The 70-something cannot. When those waits for specialists go into the weeks and weeks, then the elderly will be the ones that suffer, because their health is often compounded by multiple conditions, not just one.
Most of Obama’s vision or at least what has come through in the Stimulus and HR3200 is similar, if not identical, to Tom Daschle’s vision outlined in his book: Critical
http://books.google.com/books?id=b4ZOip6AqK8C&lpg=PP1&pg=PA198#v=onepage&q=federal%20health%20board&f=false
It outlines the assembling of a Federal Health Board, similar to the Federal Reserve Board (we’ve seen how well that worked out). This board was already practically established through the Stimulus package passed in February. More important to my point is an excerpt from Daschle’s book:
Under my plan, the Federal Health Board would counter the smoke and mirrors with hard facts on the value of drugs, devices, and services. The Federal Health Board can also help create the right incentives by paying providers based on health outcomes, rather than on services delivered page 175
In creating a Federal health Board, we also will have to assuage the doubts of people who are simply scared of allowing an unelected board of strangers to make such critical decisions. page 200
The fact that some closed door group of people gets to make recommendations or outright rules regarding your healthcare is at the heart of most people’s complaints of the insurance industry.
Yet, the government will establish the same system, only within it, who will you complain to? Your HR department? No. A customer service number? Good luck with that. No, your best bet will be writing a letter to your local congressman. See how far that takes you.
Thought lobbying was out of control, wait until the government controls another 14% of the economy. That’s a lot of $$$ to be fighting for, lawyering for, and schmoozing for.
With that said, in every instance of public health care, there is one commonality. Waiting.
Where, in the current discussion, did you ever get the idea that anyone is proposing “public health care”? The current legislation does not make doctors into public employees. The government will not prevent any insurance company from covering any medical procedure.
The bill will establish a medical board charged with the job of collecting information on which treatments work and sharing that information with medical practitioners. If the government offers “public option” insurance, it may very well decide not to cover treatments that aren’t shown to be effective.
Guess what? That’s exactly what every health insurance company in the country already does.
QitB,
Believe it or not, I work in the HR industry. I know how HR works. Many companies outsource their benefits administration to third party companies, and many manage it internally.
But there is limited legislation requiring benefits today. Most companies offer various programs as a minimal benefit that they recognize as necessary to maintain a quality workforce with minimal turnover.
This government plan turns that upside down. Now, simply understanding the legislation will likely require significant legal investment, then ensuring and maintaining compliance will require additional resources, or guarantee the switch to outsourced HRO solutions.
In the end, many companies will evaluate these options and determine that from the perspective of P&L and how everything gets calculated in the end, the better option is to let the government handle it. Share the payroll taxes with the employee, force employees into the exchange with no employer subsidized option, and watch as the employees have no choice but to enter the government healthcare option.
This, of course, is the goal, as so many on the left agree:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-_SGGcJu_c
In the end, many companies will evaluate these options and determine that from the perspective of P&L and how everything gets calculated in the end, the better option is to let the government handle it.
That’s not a determination the company will get to make under the proposed plan. Every company will have two choices:
1) Continue to offer health insurance as an employee benefit
2) Stop offering health insurance and let individuals buy coverage in the exchange from their choice of providers
Smaller companies will have a third option:
3) Buy health insurance coverage on behalf of employees from the offerings on the exchange.
At no time does the company have the option: Let the government handle it.
So where’s the downside? Some companies will continue with things just as they are today. Others will make a change, allowing employees to buy their own health insurance that will stay with them even if they change companies or lose their jobs.
Most conservatives I’ve heard are in favor of separating health insurance coverage from employement.
QitB, do you have any idea how much companies subsidize their benefits options today. Typically, it’s 40-70% for families, and 60-100% for singles.
If companies choose to not offer coverage, where will most families land? And as the requirements to make coverage cover all, those premiums will keep going up. One of two scenarios will rise:
1) Premiums will go up, and Americans will have a higher bill to pay rather their private choice, or an unsubsidized government plan. In the end, just as many, if not more Americans will still be without insurance.
2) Premiums for private insurance will go up, while the government option will become subsidized to allow more Americans to afford it. As more Americans leave private insurance, the premiums will have to rise on the private options (fewer insured lowers total revenue, raises risk, meaning individual premiums must rise). The snowball begins…premiums rise further, more Americans leave.
In the end, you either have the same thing you have now. A government competing system that costs the same as the private and simply means more people can’t afford insurance OR
You have a private insurance industry that shifts and begins catering to the wealthy, the only constituents that can afford their plans. The politicians and the elite all keep the insurance they want, while the middle class and lower are shafted to government control.
Indeed, I don’t know are you talking about this video…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtTBkxvBq88
I’ve watched many of the other videos, you might be talking about, and many of th forums begin with civil discussion. It only starts becoming a ruckus when it’s clear, that the congressmen/women have stopped listening to their constitutents.
That’s OK, keep calling the voters names. The real voices will be heard on 11/2/2010.
‘Why is it anytime someone attempts to use a liberal’s words against them, they’re always out of context?’
That’s a generalization that I can’t even begin to rationalize a legitimate reason to respond to…but I will (respond, that is)..
‘What makes one person well, may not make another person well. Some treatments don’t make a person well at all. They only improve their quality of life.’
Uh, yeah, I totally get that. I’m betting Obama gets that too. Now, if he had said “sorry folks, don’t give a shit about quality of life issues, if a treatment doesn’t cure you or at least get you healthier, its off the table…” that would have been a whole other animal, but that is in no shape or fashion what he said or was even alluding to. And if anyone who was genuinely confused/unclear on the intent of his statement were to actually query him about that, I bet he would glady set them straight on exactly what he meant and probably follow up with insight on some planned strategies for providing those other critical health-care package components, such as quality of life, preventative medicine, well-baby, etc…
No one has time to ask that simple ‘could you clear the air on this detail’ question, but there’s plenty of time to orchestrate bullshit tactics to disrupt any civil discourse/debate that might be had. Geez, why is that?
‘Those words speak volumes.’
Apparently they do, but some are hearing only what they want to hear….
‘You want me to believe that a government….is ready to take on something this big, and make it run better..’
I’m feelin’ you on that. I’ve been in govt service in some form for over 30+ years now, and am all too familiar with the problems that seem inherently embedded within it. Still, I have to say it ain’t ALL bad! Conservatives, however, are quick to invoke the negative to advance their ‘big govt-bad, anything else-good’ mantra. Here’s an interesting article that advances that contention:
The Case for Bureaucracy
http://www.governmentisgood.com/articles.php?aid=20&p=1
[...] Truth: Republican activists are building a top-down movement, both in strategy and substance. Obama appears to have hired organizers, but not actual [...]
Uh, yeah, I totally get that. I’m betting Obama gets that too. Now, if he had said “sorry folks, don’t give a shit about quality of life issues, if a treatment doesn’t cure you or at least get you healthier, its off the table…” that would have been a whole other animal, but that is in no shape or fashion what he said or was even alluding to.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601070&sid=aGrKbfWkzTqc
Going back to the whole “This is just a hired mob” point of this original post…a democrat is starting to agree — “wrong tactic”. Along with agreeing that everything that is being shoveled is likely somewhat dishonest at best.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/paglia/2009/08/12/town_halls/
I don’t agree with all of her points, but this is one of the questions in the Camille Paglia article that I’ve been asking from day one:
“why such an abject failure by the Obama administration to present the issues to the public in a rational, detailed, informational way?”
Also, I would add, why won’t the conservatives steer an initiative to query/demand those details? Would seem a better strategy than coordinating disruptions of community meetings…