“(I’m not being flippant, many useful products actually come from the pornography industry)”

and by the way. Ayn Rand is poo.

whew. what to do?

as far as the private owned water companies and power companies goes i found this quote about how municipalities work. Thought it was interesting.

In general, though, regulation occurs when the government believes that the operator, left to his own devices, would behave in a way that is contrary to the government’s objectives.

rock on.

Plus 1.

I make my living selling at farmers’ markets and while there is empirical truth to the idea that competition makes us all better, it’s also true that almost everything I need to make a living comes from very large vertically and horizontally integrated companies who consistently undermine competition by forming monopolies and buying out their competition.

I’ll leave you with this tidbit, though. I don’t have an argument that some levels of regulation and coordination are necessary. You don’t need to convince me of that and believe it. I just happen to think it’s overdone and not anywhere as effective as a lot of people would wish.

BTW – the roads in my neighborhood are specifically not state-maintained or built(or county or whatever). The roads that connect the neighborhoods together were built by developers as a concession to getting the zoning they wanted(it was in the papers… no public $$). There are offices and shopping centers on these roads. These roads that I and others use every day that the state does not own, did not build, did not subsidize, do not repair and do not clear of snow. These roads are private and owned as part of a private cooperative company.

So yeah, there is a possible place I could be. I really wish I felt comfortable enough to tell you where I live so that you could look it up. I’m not kidding, lying or exaggerating; I’m not trying to convince you of anything by making up “good sounding stuff”. Heck, I’m not even really trying to convince you of anything at all. hahaha I KNOW BETTER than to try that. I should live so long!! hahahahaha.

I just found the original thing absurd and demonstrated that it was at least possible that the concept itself was way overstated. Establishing it as confirmed fact was misleading.

another btw – the power companies don’t “take” private land. They have to buy it. Or establish easements and rights-of-way that they have to pay for and lease. These things are conditions of getting the permits and licensing from FERC and the DoE. It’s in the rulebook. LOOK IT UP. None of that comes from public cash, brother.

catchya when I’ve got more time.

PS – never read Rand. Well, Anthem, but that doesn’t really count much from what I’ve heard.

have a great night

Your Studebaker is a perfect example of why there was a need for a government entity to be there. Lead was getting into the air and private industries didn’t see it as enough of a problem to take care of it themselves. They would not have done it without government intervention. This also goes for those private power companies you like to go on about. You know the ones who routinely take the tops off mountains and put cyanide into the water supply as part of the process. So they are taking public land to make a profit off of the people.

How about all those logging roads built into public wildlife reserves? You know the ones where the roads are paid for by government so that the lumber mills can sell our trees back to us? Ever bought a 2X4? Then you’re benefiting from the public. The US is NOT a free market, nor is China or any large stable economy. The US government heavily subsidizes the corporate world. On top of this despite your claims to the opposite almost all technological inventions are in some way related to either the porn industry or government research.(I’m not being flippant, many useful products actually come from the pornography industry)

Almost all medical research is done via the US government, to include orphan drugs, which are not profitable enough to do without government incentive, so these private industries failed to give customers what they want or work int he public good without government intervention, so people died or suffered because they weren’t profitable. Without government intervention the power industries would have power lines strewn all about despite the ability of wireless power transmission invented by Tesla, because it was more profitable to put up a number of power lines.

Oh by the way, our court system you brought up, publicly funded, without which you couldn’t even punish law breakers. The laws themselves are publicly funded, at least in theory, as the buildings and personell are funded by taxpayers. that peanut factory you were talking about intentionally let tainted samples of salmonella pass. Along with that they failed to provide a clean place for food production due to the lack of ability to check on places due to the FDA funding cuts.

Also as far as the EPA goes, power copmanies now don’t want to clean the mercury that comes out of their smokestacks even though it has proven to be detrimental to the children in the area. There’s those public companies thinking about the people again, especially since the have a mandated monopoly, which they spent vast amounts of money for through lobbying efforts. I am also glad to see that you glossed over the workers safety issues, the superfund, the multitude of people who consciously bilk the public, such as Bernie Madoff, but I guess that since the product collapsed on it’s own he shouldn’t count right? Also

I am very curious as to how in an area where you have no public roadways, there would be the population density to have anything other than dial-up internet access as the industry itself has said it is not cost effective to service low density areas, kind of like UPS, Fed-Ex, DHL. I also think you gloss over the constitutional right to have a postal service. Also all these television shows you apparently watch went over what was once the public airwaves. You remember the airwaves that have never made one dime for the public? Oh right we have local access stations that were mandated by the government. If you get any form of electronic communications or if you have ever gotten any type of electronic communication it has gone over public space. Now lets get into some fun stuff, private companies that actively work to take away the public’s rights.

Just so you know I too read and enjoyed Ayn Rand. I like that you have done your homework and there are a few points we agree on, but you tend to give far too much credit to the private industries.

I also took the time to be certain that I knew what “nonsense” meant and that I used that word in an appropriate way in context to what I intended to communicate.

I found that the word nonsense can mean several generally similar things inclusive of “a message or words which seem to convey no meaning”, “an untrue statement”, “something foolish”, “absurd”. WHEW! I’m glad I did that! Boy would my face have been red!!!

So yes, I would have to say that the word means pretty much what I thought it did and upon review I must say that I used it in a way quite consistent with my intention.

I take it from your response that you disagree, but that’s ok. I expected it and was prepared for exactly the type of response you gave.

As would be the norm, you infer that I don’t “understand”, “grasp”, or are generally capable of integrating alternate views of things. I can very clearly put that to rest. I understand your point entirely. I also happen to disagree entirely.

I’ve spent probably too much of the day making sure that nothing I said in my “long winded” post was false or misleading.

Now to be certain, I have to say that my post was simply a refutation of the original posting. That original posting has been going around for a while now and has had titles and contents that vary slightly, but generally maintain the same form. It is usually referred to as “A day in the life of Joe Republican”.

So, if it is possible for you to adjust your context slightly, see it from that titled point of view, it may be that my text makes more sense.

Now it is also possible that you and I disagree on what the original posting is actually saying. From my point of view it says that “Here’s Joe Republican, decrying all the government programs and whatnot, yet look at all the government has done for him that he uses every day. Isn’t this ironic, if not downright hypocritical?”

If you do not see it that way, I am very interested in hearing what your take on the original post may be.

But since I wrote my response from that context, I think what I wrote is entirely accurate.

Now, since also hearing from Billy on the topic that I “way overestimated” private investment, I needed to make sure that I wasn’t wrong. I’m a nice guy, if I’m wrong I’ll say so. But everything I had found before writing my response and now everything I’ve found after his response indicates that my original statements can stand.

I’ve spoken on the phone with people in the public relations departments from my local energy options as well as a quick check to the immediately neighboring service areas: NOVEC, Dominion, Allegheny Power, PEPCO. Their public relations phone numbers are available on their websites. If you find you cannot stomach what I said, believe it to be false, or simply are pathologically incapable of accepting it, I highly recommend that you call them. In fact, I practically insist on it if you still think what I’ve said is false. They’re very nice people, especially the lady from NOVEC who also provided some interesting additional background information and suggested reading for me.

I’ve also spoken with two individuals at FERC, one a specialist in hydropower projects, the other a specialist with transmission lines. I cannot give you their names or phone numbers directly because one is a close friend of mine and not a part of their public relations department and the other is a friend of hers. I’m certain, however, that some mild research on your parts will turn up the methods by which you can reach the appropriate people. It’s what they’re there for.

I’ve reviewed the Department of Energy report on the use of Government Subsidies and for what the money is used. It is available on their website. I’ve emailed several of the authors listed in the document, but have received no response as yet. If they tell me something other than what I’ve already stated, I *will* tell you as well as appropriately tune my statements so that they are not false.

Here’s what I’ve found out:
The overwhelming majority of power infrastructure in this country is privately owned, privately built and the only use of subsidies(for the companies I spoke with) involved is when that money is made available as a loan or assurance against loans which always gets paid back and with interest. Does there exist municipal infrastructure? Yes. However, in refutation of Billy, I have not overstated anything. In fact, it was he who has done so. Unless he lives in another country. Which is possible. But then we’re talking about apples and oranges. ::Shrug::

Aside from providing capital for loans, subsidies are also used at the production level to ease the procurement of fuel, assistance programs to the consumer, research and development programs of all types as well as a few other things. However, it was made very clear to me repeatedly, *infrastructure is not subsidized*.

Billy, you said that “Transmission lines and mains are almost universally paid for by public money” — nothing I’ve found and no one I’ve spoken to supports this. If you have documentation or resources in the industry that can support your statement, I’d very much like to know.

Sue, I need to know what was in the original posting that shows companies “riding on the shoulders” of government efforts. Upon review, the only possible one I can come up with would be the internet. None of the others make sense. Surely you don’t mean the power companies— Edison, Westinghouse and Tesla would most certainly disagree.

However, since the ground work was already put in place for the internet and there is no way possible to determine what would have happened had it not been put in place already, this is one of those fuzzy points. If it makes you feel better, I’m willing to concede that it exists as a result of governmental investment, but I’m not willing to concede that it necessarily would have expanded to what we have today had it remained the sole domain of the government. It may have, it may not have. Neither you nor I can do more than speculate. I believe that even without governmental ground work, the internet would still exist today. Maybe in the same or similar form, maybe in some other. Again, there’s really no way to know. It’s a belief I have given the general amount of technological advancement that goes on in industry all the time. It seems highly likely given the theories of inevitable discovery and concurrent invention, which is a real and documented thing, that my belief is correct. Government may have been there, but it was most likely unnecessary.

Sue, also, I was not necessarily arguing just general profitability and business model and that sort of thing. I was more going to the original posting’s context that it was an integral and necessary function, blah blah blah. So in response to your USPS comments, I don’t see that they’re as integral as they used to be. Historically, yes. Today, no. The original posting’s implication does not ring as true as it might have otherwise. Which is, after all, my point. I should have been more clear originally. Sorry.

So your last point, do I believe that companies would intentionally poison people to protect their bottom line? As a majority, on the whole, no. I don’t. And I have reasons. But since I hadn’t heard of the intentional release of the peanut butter, I went to look it up. I only found a few articles, though(recycled in similar form throughout many different outlets). It was the initial report of the *allegation* that it was intentional and a few followups about the investigations. However, I cannot find any followup on the findings of those investigations at all. It appears charges were never filed as far as I can tell even though the investigation has been going on since February.

But the company has closed down, and if they’re guilty, they’ll pay. That’s justice. And also my point. Makes quite an example for other companies that might do the same thing. And considering the USDA dropped the ball ( as did the Georgia DA– NOT a private lab contracted by the USDA as far as I can tell ), I’d say that justice is served in *spite* of the government.

I believe that this same thing would happen to ANY company that purposefully allowed poison to enter the marketplace.

But my original point in my original refutation was simply that there’s a lot of food out there never inspected. Lots of food that doesn’t have to be inspected. Lots of people eat it. Just like me. That food isn’t safe *because of the USDA* but simply *because of the intentions of the producers*. Given the USDA’s statements regarding their inability to inspect most producers, the outrageous length of time in between inspections(source: same articles about the intential contaminated peanut stuff) and yet still… there are so *very few* outbreaks as a percentage of the opportunity for them… doesn’t this essentially say that the original statement wasn’t only misleading, but also generally untrue on the whole? Doesn’t it also essentially support the notion that most food production is done in a safe and clean manner without direct enforcement from some agency? I think so. You may not. ::shrug::

Wow. This is hugely inflated and long winded and probably deluded and insane and most likely some form of republican propaganda at best or maybe some libertarian cockeral at worst!!! And I’m not even finished with debate you guys offered back.

Maybe you shouldn’t read it. It might just make sense.

Naw, who am I kidding? It’s just going to make you angry and more names and charges are going to be thrown at me.

I guess you can’t really talk anyone out of their religion. Especially when they’re so invested in it.

Time to turn off this computer. It’s costing money I pay to private power company and I’m not poor enough to get any subsidies.

I’m gonna turn on the radio or the TV instead. I’ll tune into a station that would most like exist whether or not the FCC was around. Yeah, I’ll turn on the TV and watch the weather guy, a meteorologist who came up with his own forecast after looking at the doppler radar that the broadcasting company owns privately. He’s gonna tell me what the weather is like… that thing that people have been doing for centuries, long before NWS and NOAA… It’ll be on in a few minutes. Give or take. I’m not too worried about it though. But if I was, it’s probably a great thing that I could be accurate down the microsecond with that nyukyular clock thingy I really need.

But then I’ll probably run up to the store for something, never once turning onto a DOT built road while driving my antique Studebaker I got from my grandpa. It runs great. I don’t think the NHTSA has ever seen it, but I’d bet it’ll make ‘em green with envy! She’s a beauty!

I will need to get some “lead substitute” for the gas I put in it, though. Since the EPA came along, now I’ve gotta do extra work and spend more $ to keep it running. I’ll pay electronically with my debit card. I can’t recall the last time I had cash on me. I’ll drive right by the mailbox since I haven’t put anything into it since January and the only thing that shows up in there is advertisements for credit cards, coupons for pantyhose and leaflets from the local illegals wanting to clean my house. I receive and pay all my bills electronically so there’s nothing worthwhile or time sensitive in there…

Anyway, I’ve got pork ribs in the smoker that I’m off to chow down on. I got ‘em at the local farm market. They’re not inspected. The girlie’s making a salad. From stuff we got at a stand this afternoon(not the farmer’s market… ’cause their veggies don’t ever look right). They’re not inspected either. She washed the veggies in water from our non-municipal water source, but…

Maybe I’ll die.

And you guys can sue on my behalf. That would be sweet. Oh, I’m actually tearing up at the thought! I love you guys!!!!!

<3
Kisses!

But I’m not even sure you can extrapolate from that roadside stand to the large corporations that run our economy. Yes, I know about this political talk about how small business makes the US economy work. Balderdash! Small businesses come and go, but they’re full of voters so politicians have to pretend they’re important. It’s large banks and corporations that are really important to our economy. Why do you think the bailout went to huge banks and companys and not small businesses?

So let’s look at your example but frame it another way. A large corportaion develops a new product. It’s hastily tested to keep costs down, but they advertise heavily and sell millions of items. They make a nice profit. Turns out it’s a safety hazard, and they have a recall/lawsuit on their hands. But they can afford the risk because they know 90% of their customers won’t be adversely affected, and 90% of those that are won’t try to get their money back. So they can aford to settle with the 1% that sue, and they just crank up the ad machine to deny fault or rehab their image and prevent too much bleeding from a wary public. Tobacco is the most obvious example, but it applies to the auto industry before folks like Nader came along as well.

Frikkin’ communist.

The Fairness Doctrine? Really? When did that happen?

To Billy: The free-market is only “nebulous” to some. Have you never stopped at a road side produce stand? What would you do if you bought some tasteless or wormy sweet corn? Would you return and try to get your money back or would you just never go back to that particular market? Would you tell friends and family of your bad experience?
How long do you think that roadside stand would remain if it continued to sell the bad produce?
What makes you think that a produce market is an exception to any other market?

We’ve seen what the end result is when liberals/progressives make government function properly: Gulags and killing fields.

Read your “The Road to Serfdom”. Centralized economic planning (which is what government healthcare really is when you get down to it) is doomed to failure. And Hayek said this in 1947.

Anybody who thinks that government will make health care either more economical or more efficient is just plain delusional. And, for that matter, clearly doesn’t have real-world experience with government.

You both way overestimate the amount of private investment in electrical and water systems. Even if they are privatized, they operate in local monopolies, subsidized by state and federal government. Transmission lines and mains are almost universally paid for by public money.

But on a more fundamental level, I don’t understand your perspective. Why do you believe that private enterprise would do anything except bend you over if given the chance? The USDA, FDA, SEC and OSHA were all created because private companies were unregulated at one time. They proved on numerous occasions to favor profits over peoples health and safety. What makes you think that his nebulous free-market overlord will suddenly work in any other direction?

And before complaining about the effectiveness of any regulatory body, please note that Republican underfunding and interference is frequently at the heart of any underperformance (e.g. number of EPA regulators, number of USDA inspectors). The Republican M.O. since James Watt has been to underfund and mismanage government so that it functions ineffectively; then they can claim that the problem is government in general. Then of course, they sell you some smoke and mirrors about how if there had only been no USDA then Upton Sinclair would have never written the jungle.

Y’all go ahead and throw in with Carnegie and Rockefeller; I’ve seen that show already.

What it boils down to mostly is that you don’t really seem to grasp that many of these private companies are riding on the shoulders of government efforts that laid the ground work for them to reap a profit. They might be able to be more profitable because they don’t have to serve all populations–e.g., USPS delivers mail to the most remote places in the USA. Fedex, not so much. Same thing for public schools, which don’t get to pick and choose their students the way private schools can and do.

And, if you think private businesses would ensure vehicle, food, or drug safety, you are deluded. Just look to China–that’s a great example of an unregulated market leaving people (and their pets) dead. It’s a right wing myth that companies would never sell dangerous products because they would lose business, but the routine cost-benefit analyses (i.e., how much would it cost to make this product safer vs. how much would we pay out in wrongful death suits) undertaken by businesses give lie to that. Moreover, all the recalls themselves prove that businesses will let things slide if they think they can get away with it (e.g., peanut recall involved a company that intentionally sold contaminated peanuts). Yeah, the FDA dropped the ball, but that’s because it ceded inspections to PRIVATE companies to conduct. And, being all about the money, these companies let tainted food to pass into the food supply. Good going private business.