’)This is awesome, crappy grammar and all.
I AM AN AMERICAN CONSERVATIVE SHITHEEL
This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the US department of energy. I then took a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal water utility. After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC regulated channels to see what the national weather service of the national oceanographic and atmospheric administration determined the weather was going to be like using satellites designed, built, and launched by the national aeronautics and space administration. I watched this while eating my breakfast of US department of agriculture inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the food and drug administration.
At the appropriate time as regulated by the US congress and kept accurate by the national institute of standards and technology and the US naval observatory, I get into my national highway traffic safety administration approved automobile and set out to work on the roads build by the local, state, and federal departments of transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the environmental protection agency, using legal tender issed by the federal reserve bank. On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via the US postal service and drop the kids off at the public school.
After spending another day not being maimed or killed at work thanks to the workplace regulations imposed by the department of labor and the occupational safety and health administration, enjoying another two meals which again do not kill me because of the USDA, I drive my NHTSA car back home on the DOT roads, to ny house which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and fire marshal’s inspection, and which has not been plundered of all it’s valuables thanks to the local police department.
I then log on to the internet which was developed by the defense advanced research projects administration and post on freerepublic.com and fox news forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can’t do anything right.
Brilliant.
More than a few of those who pack public meetings to rail against government health care look old enough to be on Medicaid and Social Security, too.
That’s bloody genius.
Let’s see… electricity is regulated, but privately owned. Regulation increases cost by quite a bit. Municipal water is often privately owned, never federally owned. FCC makes sure you can’t hear swearing, otherwise entirely privately owned, tho you would never know it now that its news content is federally supervised. Weather satellites are GOOD! As is the mapping done by the USGS. The best weather forecasting is done by private firms because NOAA has been unable to figure out how to agree on upgrading their computer simulations from 40 YEARS AGO! All food and drugs are distributed and made/growt\n by private industry, and I don’t suppose anyone wants to get us all started on the delays by the FDA on life-saving drugs being used all over the world, even on people dying who would be more than happy to volunteer. Time is regulated internationally. The GMT is in Britain, for God’s sake. The Bureau of standards is excellent by the way. A very good use of our tax dollars. Hee hee. National Highway Safety Approved. Love it. Useful in the basics, but way too expensive for what it does. Same with post office, which, by the way, is broke again. Public Schools were an excellent investment. Not happy with their recent descent into corruption (monetary), depriving kids in certain neighborhoods of basic education so that unions can skim money that was supposed to be used for supplies, books, etc. into school politicians pockets. Internet is GREAT! But only after it escaped the confines of government. Nope. no reality here… moving on.
Tom Hartmann read a version of this on his radio program a few months back. This is a newer version, I believe.
Didn’t notice any crappy grammar besides “awoken.” Hope it becomes really viral. Should be read aloud at all of those “town meetings” before they devolve into mob events.
So this is someone else’s work beside the anonymous poster who you guys are raving about?
Maybe he shouldn’t be calling anyone else a shitheel then, no?
Shorter Dennis: “I agree or can’t refute the main point of the post but that guy is a poopy head too!”
Looks like someone has anonymous poster envy.
This is an updated edition of something that’s been making the rounds for years, with names like “A day on the life of Joe Republican”.
Still clever and 100% true.
“A day IN the life”, that is. Doh!
Pretty dumb…
I know Gabriel, pretty dumb to refuse to acknowledge the positive effects that government has on our daily lives. People who don’t don’t deserve to be called Americans.
Well, this is a strawman arguement. Conservatives aren’t anarchists. There will always be a debate between conservatives and statists about the proper role of government…
What debate Gabe? Point to a debate going on somewhere! You know, an exchange of ideas, an acknowledgement of the other’s points and a lucid rebuttal, etc. etc. Conservatives aren’t even engaging in debate anymore. They packing townhalls with screeching lunatics. That’s the right’s “debate”. Screeching fucking lunatics. What can you do with people like this?
what happened to all the teabaggin trolls
LOL.
It isn’t just that the ’shout down conservatives’ are so loud, it’s that they’ve been so utterly unapologetically wrong afterwards.
I thought you people loved protests. You’re either lying about these protests, or you’re even dumber than I thought.
There are numerous townhall meetings taking place across the country. Most of them are pretty mundane, some are firey…That tends to happen when you have the federal government trying to shove a healthcare plan down our throats that will decrease quality and increase costs….So, props to these patriots for preventing this disaster from happening to those of us who actually work and pay for our own healthcare .
Just like Iraq?
Runnnn for the hilllllsssssss hide the fucking kidssssss it’s theeee motherfuckin mobbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2ZJGSzhnCI
Ahhhhhhh!
[...] And, while we’re at it, why do these people freak out when they hear the truth? Stupid is as stupid [...]
hey gabby ,
you must work for the insurance corps or the gov. , this is BS and you are fool , a total loser .
So you work and pay for your own health insurance really ? put up or shut up . If you have such a good job then your company provides H/I , if you work at mickey D’s then you cant afford H/I , what a tool . You and many like you really need to expand your minds , might i suggest STOP watching fox tv , you really have no clue and would rather supourt the upper 5% at your own cost than face reality .
Just wait till you lose your job and one of your family members needs to be in the hospital and you can’t afford it , just wait till you have worked 45 years and been kicked to curb . Yea you BIG mouth what an a*****e .
I pay for my health care insurance AND I pay all my own medical bills cause the private health care (which I pay for) does not pay.
I believe that most people confuse MEDICAID and MEDICARE. MEDICAID is a jointly funded state/federal program that provides health care for people who cannot afford health care.
MEDICARE is a federal health care program for people 65 and over and the disabled.
So much that the government does works so well that we hardly notice that it is being done. We celebrate it far, far too little and forget the painful history of poisoned food, pollution, workplace accidents, crop failures and lawlessness that created those services in the first place.
Great post.
Gabriel, a mind’s a terrible thingh to waste.
Marianne 7 doesn’t have to to worry about that, no mind to waste.
Hello, I’m a visitor from the future. Where I come from there is no such thing as “government”. Everything that we need is produced by people and we pay them directly for their production. It’s really quite efficient and anyone who wants to work can find it. In fact, our markets have become so efficient that they have cured death.
I must return to the future now as this place puts me into a bit of a depression. Have a good day.
Nice try, Gabe. I think actually the mob would be these guys.
http://www.squarestate.net/diary/8449/teabaggers-vandalize-car-at-perlmutter-event
While you cherry-pick one smarmy, coached video to try and prove these groups are being mischaracterised, there are SCADS of videos showing just what a bunch of thugs they really are.
Also possibly of interest to Gabe, but probably not: http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/08/anti-health-care-reform-protester-encourages-physical-violence-use-of-firearms.php
“Conservatives aren’t anarchists.” Since we’re on the subject, you should also acknowledge that liberal doesn’t equal socialist. I’m sick and tired of righties labeling anything progressive as socialist. Yes, conservatives aren’t anarchists, in the same way liberals are NOT socialists.
However, there is an anarchist tendency in the far-right wing of America. Many conservatives bash government to the point that one could ONLY conclude that they favor NONE at all. There’s a basic lack of respect for all that government does to keep society running. Without the state, you would not enjoy the comfortable life you do today.
The original posting presupposes a significant number of things– not the least of which is that the posting was accurate in content and typical, that the supplied services actually are necessary, done well and efficiently and lastly that those services could not be done privately as well or at all.
I think these presuppositions are patent absurdities and verbal misdirection.
Just because you do get these services doesn’t mean that you actually need those services or for them to provide it.
If you do “need” them, just because they do manage to provide these services doesn’t mean that it couldn’t be done better or that it was done well at all in the first place.
And also just because they manage to provide these services doesn’t mean that they do it efficiently or in a cost-effective manner.
Even where they do provide them efficiently or cost-effectively, that doesn’t mean that a private source couldn’t do better.
However, the basis of the posting is this:
You need these things. Government did it, not private companies. They did it very well and they did it efficiently and at low cost. Private organizations could not have done these things, would have screwed up and you’d be paying a lot more for it.
Off the bat, as I argue specific points, I live about 30 minutes from Washington DC:
– Near my home, I get power from either Dominion Power or NOVEC. Both are private organizations. Very sigificant amounts of power infrastructure are built and maintained by private organizations and co-ops. The posting’s point doesn’t apply.
– Near my home, majority of the county uses private wells or co-op water production/treatment facilities– not a public source. Where it is provided by the municipal source, while that source was publicly *organized/chartered* is neither publicly managed nor supported. None of the infrastructure is public. The posting’s point doesn’t apply.
– FCC — I’d argue that they aren’t exactly *necessary* in any serious capacity. Like TV and Radio wouldn’t exist without the FCC. Like stations would purposefully make themselves difficult to tune in by “stepping on” other stations’ signals. ::rolling eyes:: Nonsense.
– While I appreciate weather satellites, there are private ones up there, too. Let’s not forget about privately owned and operated ground-based radar, either. The meteorologists doing the forecasts (whether from public or private source data) don’t typically just read off whatever the report from NOAA or NWS had to say. They may consult it, but they typically seem to do their own forecasting and reporting. Nonsense.
– There is some argument as to the effectiveness of the USDA… Seems most food recalls I hear about are not because of USDA inspections, but reporting of sickness in the general public from food sources which is then *routed back* to the USDA. They may be a convenient clearing house for information, but necessary and effective? It may be that I just don’t hear about whatever foodstuffs fail inspections. But considering that the producers kind of really *want* to sell their stuff, gain brand loyalty and avoid a negative public image, I’d imagine a lot of companies do their own inspections and take them seriously. But still, not all food is inspected nor is it required to be inspected. I get meat and vegetables from local sources frequently that have never been inspected. I haven’t gotten sick yet, so the point *as presented*…. Nonsense.
– FDA, yeah look. This one just tends to anger me. I’m calling this nonsense on general principle. Take that with a grain of salt or disregard my opinion. I just think they’re useless.
– I don’t understand the comment about “appropriate time as regulated by the US Congress…”; like people weren’t keeping time accurately before these things existed? USNA isn’t the owner of the sole atomic clock in the country, much less the world and some small few of them are privately owned! Ultimately, I don’t know about you, but I’m not too worried if my watch is off by a couple of minutes. Is it a good use of the money invested for this purpose? Would you not know about what time it was without a “national” atomic clock telling you? Are every one of your clocks/watches/vcrs/computers/etc in time synchronization at this exact moment? And if not, is this causing you some outrageous level of life-quality-altering inconvenience? Yeah, this point was nonsense, too.
– NHTSA — while arguably some good has come of this, on the other hand “efficient” is not a term I’d consider using in relation to them. It’s arguable. Ultimately important to ask…. is your vehicle *only* safe because of the NHTSA (or the like in other countries) or also because producers of vehicles know that it’s an important selling point? I’m calling this one modulated nonsense.
– I use a combination of private roads (with and without tolls) and public roads (with[wtf?] and without tolls) all the time. Not all roads are DOT built. I know people who go to work on a daily basis who never have to use public roads. Also, while I’m at it, I’d like to say that the public roads I do use aren’t exactly examples of good design or efficiency in the least. Not even freaking close. Absolute unqualified nonsense..
– EPA can go [rude expression]. Gasoline existed and was combustible long before they stuck their nose in it. Companies wouldn’t start selling gasoline that wouldn’t burn just because the EPA wasn’t around to regulate it. Nonsense.
– Federal Reserve Notes — well, “coin of the realm” should be minted “by the realm” although there is still a great deal of debate as to whether or not they’re efficient or effective in their other duties. This point was fine, but I am not sure that it’s all that particularly *relevant*. Conceded in any event.
– USPS is in financial trouble again. They are efficient at what they do. They are not price-competitive for larger items, but very much so for smaller ones. They are also, I *think*, funded by the income they produce and are independently managed. So I’m not sure that it’s a fantastic example. Could be wrong on that. In any event, you do have other options nowadays. I think I’ve sent *1* letter via USMail in the last 8 or 9 months. Not kidding. The USPS, for ME, is simply the method by which I fill my trashcan with junk mail. But… Conceded with reservations.
– Public Schools exist for the purpose to which they are currently put. Now whether or not you like or agree with that purpose is immaterial to this response. However, given that there is a lot of excellent argument over whether or not they are as efficient or as cost effective as their private counterparts… now that is germane. I call this one nonsense because that’s my opion, but other people may not and… well since I *could* be dropping my kid off at a private school as does a significant portion of the population already, and would most certainly be doing so if my property taxes weren’t going 80% to “public school budgets”– it qualifies as imposed nonsense.
– State and local building codes may provide some benefit, although i seem to recall this type of thing was more for “slum lord” control than keeping higher-scale homes safer. But saying that your house hasn’t burned down *just because* of those codes is a bit disingenuous. There are plenty of homes that burn down every day that are “up to code” and have been inspected and the cause was still structural. Just a truly bizarre point to make. Nonsense.
– Your house wasn’t plundered *just because* of the police presence? Mention that to all the people who have had their houses looted recently…people mugged, raped, killed, etc… with the same police around. There is, of course, some deterrence level there, but I’m thinking that the people that *want* to burgle your home are still going to do it no matter what. Places with awfully dense police-to-citizen ratios still seem to have high crime rates. I don’t think this point proves anything. Nonsense.
– The internet may have been initially developed from DARPA, but it was improved privately and now nearly all the infrastructure is put in place privately and you pay a private company to use their access to it. I don’t know about you, but I don’t think the “public” version of the internet would be anywhere near as good as it is today or that the same or some similar thing wouldn’t have been developed otherwise privately– possibly even better than what we’ve got now. But since the “public” gets access to it only via “private” suppliers — Patently nonsense.
Where were these protests and these mobs during the Iraqi war? Thousand of Americans and innocent civilians are killed yet nobody seemed to care. Then the threat of government healthcare and everybody is all of a sudden pissed. Sounds like they have screwy priorities.
I think what confuses conservatives is that conservatives don’t seem able to make government function properly. They go on about government waste and how the government is too stupid and/or bureaucratic to run something like healthcare, but that’s only the case when conservatives are running the government. When the government is in the hands of people who respect it and know what they’re doing, it can be quite effective. Conservatives expand government in useless ways while cutting taxes, thereby not paying for anything and putting us in debt, thus giving government a bad name. The liberal point of view is simply that for an ever expanding population like our society, more government is going to be necessary so we should be honest about that, let it expand, and find ways to be more efficient, pay for it, and make it work as best we can.
Either you are an American, or, you are a liberal. You can’t be both.
Pish Tosh: it’s funny you use the word “nonsense” so much. I don’t think it means what you think it means. If you want an example, re-read your own post, it’s a great example of long-winded nonsense.
What it boils down to mostly is that you don’t really seem to grasp that many of these private companies are riding on the shoulders of government efforts that laid the ground work for them to reap a profit. They might be able to be more profitable because they don’t have to serve all populations–e.g., USPS delivers mail to the most remote places in the USA. Fedex, not so much. Same thing for public schools, which don’t get to pick and choose their students the way private schools can and do.
And, if you think private businesses would ensure vehicle, food, or drug safety, you are deluded. Just look to China–that’s a great example of an unregulated market leaving people (and their pets) dead. It’s a right wing myth that companies would never sell dangerous products because they would lose business, but the routine cost-benefit analyses (i.e., how much would it cost to make this product safer vs. how much would we pay out in wrongful death suits) undertaken by businesses give lie to that. Moreover, all the recalls themselves prove that businesses will let things slide if they think they can get away with it (e.g., peanut recall involved a company that intentionally sold contaminated peanuts). Yeah, the FDA dropped the ball, but that’s because it ceded inspections to PRIVATE companies to conduct. And, being all about the money, these companies let tainted food to pass into the food supply. Good going private business.
For Pish Tosh (and ED),
You both way overestimate the amount of private investment in electrical and water systems. Even if they are privatized, they operate in local monopolies, subsidized by state and federal government. Transmission lines and mains are almost universally paid for by public money.
But on a more fundamental level, I don’t understand your perspective. Why do you believe that private enterprise would do anything except bend you over if given the chance? The USDA, FDA, SEC and OSHA were all created because private companies were unregulated at one time. They proved on numerous occasions to favor profits over peoples health and safety. What makes you think that his nebulous free-market overlord will suddenly work in any other direction?
And before complaining about the effectiveness of any regulatory body, please note that Republican underfunding and interference is frequently at the heart of any underperformance (e.g. number of EPA regulators, number of USDA inspectors). The Republican M.O. since James Watt has been to underfund and mismanage government so that it functions ineffectively; then they can claim that the problem is government in general. Then of course, they sell you some smoke and mirrors about how if there had only been no USDA then Upton Sinclair would have never written the jungle.
Y’all go ahead and throw in with Carnegie and Rockefeller; I’ve seen that show already.
Sue and Billy team up for the win.
Hello, I’m a visitor from the future. Where I come from there is no such thing as “opportunity”. Everything that we need is produced by robotic machines and we pay the owner-overlords directly for their production. It’s really quite efficient and anyone who wants to work can find soylent green and virtual circuses instead. In fact, our markets have become so efficient that they have recycled death.
I must return to the future now as this place puts me into a bit of a repression. Have a good day.
If I’d a nickel for every doofy-ass ‘libertarian’ argument out there I’d have enough cash to found my own ‘libertarian’ society and ban anyone infantile enough in their reasoning to espouse ‘libertarian’ beliefs. Then I’d shoot myself.
why said: I think what confuses conservatives is that conservatives don’t seem able to make government function properly.
We’ve seen what the end result is when liberals/progressives make government function properly: Gulags and killing fields.
Read your “The Road to Serfdom”. Centralized economic planning (which is what government healthcare really is when you get down to it) is doomed to failure. And Hayek said this in 1947.
Anybody who thinks that government will make health care either more economical or more efficient is just plain delusional. And, for that matter, clearly doesn’t have real-world experience with government.
Whoops- 1942.
To eD: Why do you live that way? Are the “overlords” pointing guns at you? If so, I’m sorry to see that your people allowed the “overlords”/”government” to remain.
To Billy: The free-market is only “nebulous” to some. Have you never stopped at a road side produce stand? What would you do if you bought some tasteless or wormy sweet corn? Would you return and try to get your money back or would you just never go back to that particular market? Would you tell friends and family of your bad experience?
How long do you think that roadside stand would remain if it continued to sell the bad produce?
What makes you think that a produce market is an exception to any other market?
otherwise entirely privately owned, tho you would never know it now that its news content is federally supervised.
The Fairness Doctrine? Really? When did that happen?
Hello, I’m a visitor from the future. Where I come from there is no such thing as “government”. Everything that we need is produced by people and we pay them directly for their production. It’s really quite efficient and anyone who wants to work can find it. In fact, our markets have become so efficient that they have cured death.
Frikkin’ communist.
ED, your roadside produce market doesn’t hold water. Sure that tiny roadside stand might go out of business if customers have a bad experience, stop purchasing there and word gets around. But that’s only if there is an alternative stand with better products. If there’s no regulation, every roadside stand could be exactly the same and people would be forced to buy those inferior vegetables. But competition would come to the rescue, right? Someone would want to steal the business from the other stands and start offering a better product. Except there’s an easier way to make a better profit. Increase production and cut corners and you can offer a better price. People already expect crappy vegetables so they’ll go where they have to pay the least for them. And this is what most businesses do.
But I’m not even sure you can extrapolate from that roadside stand to the large corporations that run our economy. Yes, I know about this political talk about how small business makes the US economy work. Balderdash! Small businesses come and go, but they’re full of voters so politicians have to pretend they’re important. It’s large banks and corporations that are really important to our economy. Why do you think the bailout went to huge banks and companys and not small businesses?
So let’s look at your example but frame it another way. A large corportaion develops a new product. It’s hastily tested to keep costs down, but they advertise heavily and sell millions of items. They make a nice profit. Turns out it’s a safety hazard, and they have a recall/lawsuit on their hands. But they can afford the risk because they know 90% of their customers won’t be adversely affected, and 90% of those that are won’t try to get their money back. So they can aford to settle with the 1% that sue, and they just crank up the ad machine to deny fault or rehab their image and prevent too much bleeding from a wary public. Tobacco is the most obvious example, but it applies to the auto industry before folks like Nader came along as well.
Sue: Yes, sweetheart, I guess it is funny. But I took your advice and re-read my post because you said “pretty please” and made the opportunity to exchange ideas so enticing! Then I did it again, just to be absolutely certain I said what I intended to say.
I also took the time to be certain that I knew what “nonsense” meant and that I used that word in an appropriate way in context to what I intended to communicate.
I found that the word nonsense can mean several generally similar things inclusive of “a message or words which seem to convey no meaning”, “an untrue statement”, “something foolish”, “absurd”. WHEW! I’m glad I did that! Boy would my face have been red!!!
So yes, I would have to say that the word means pretty much what I thought it did and upon review I must say that I used it in a way quite consistent with my intention.
I take it from your response that you disagree, but that’s ok. I expected it and was prepared for exactly the type of response you gave.
As would be the norm, you infer that I don’t “understand”, “grasp”, or are generally capable of integrating alternate views of things. I can very clearly put that to rest. I understand your point entirely. I also happen to disagree entirely.
I’ve spent probably too much of the day making sure that nothing I said in my “long winded” post was false or misleading.
Now to be certain, I have to say that my post was simply a refutation of the original posting. That original posting has been going around for a while now and has had titles and contents that vary slightly, but generally maintain the same form. It is usually referred to as “A day in the life of Joe Republican”.
So, if it is possible for you to adjust your context slightly, see it from that titled point of view, it may be that my text makes more sense.
Now it is also possible that you and I disagree on what the original posting is actually saying. From my point of view it says that “Here’s Joe Republican, decrying all the government programs and whatnot, yet look at all the government has done for him that he uses every day. Isn’t this ironic, if not downright hypocritical?”
If you do not see it that way, I am very interested in hearing what your take on the original post may be.
But since I wrote my response from that context, I think what I wrote is entirely accurate.
Now, since also hearing from Billy on the topic that I “way overestimated” private investment, I needed to make sure that I wasn’t wrong. I’m a nice guy, if I’m wrong I’ll say so. But everything I had found before writing my response and now everything I’ve found after his response indicates that my original statements can stand.
I’ve spoken on the phone with people in the public relations departments from my local energy options as well as a quick check to the immediately neighboring service areas: NOVEC, Dominion, Allegheny Power, PEPCO. Their public relations phone numbers are available on their websites. If you find you cannot stomach what I said, believe it to be false, or simply are pathologically incapable of accepting it, I highly recommend that you call them. In fact, I practically insist on it if you still think what I’ve said is false. They’re very nice people, especially the lady from NOVEC who also provided some interesting additional background information and suggested reading for me.
I’ve also spoken with two individuals at FERC, one a specialist in hydropower projects, the other a specialist with transmission lines. I cannot give you their names or phone numbers directly because one is a close friend of mine and not a part of their public relations department and the other is a friend of hers. I’m certain, however, that some mild research on your parts will turn up the methods by which you can reach the appropriate people. It’s what they’re there for.
I’ve reviewed the Department of Energy report on the use of Government Subsidies and for what the money is used. It is available on their website. I’ve emailed several of the authors listed in the document, but have received no response as yet. If they tell me something other than what I’ve already stated, I *will* tell you as well as appropriately tune my statements so that they are not false.
Here’s what I’ve found out:
The overwhelming majority of power infrastructure in this country is privately owned, privately built and the only use of subsidies(for the companies I spoke with) involved is when that money is made available as a loan or assurance against loans which always gets paid back and with interest. Does there exist municipal infrastructure? Yes. However, in refutation of Billy, I have not overstated anything. In fact, it was he who has done so. Unless he lives in another country. Which is possible. But then we’re talking about apples and oranges. ::Shrug::
Aside from providing capital for loans, subsidies are also used at the production level to ease the procurement of fuel, assistance programs to the consumer, research and development programs of all types as well as a few other things. However, it was made very clear to me repeatedly, *infrastructure is not subsidized*.
Billy, you said that “Transmission lines and mains are almost universally paid for by public money” — nothing I’ve found and no one I’ve spoken to supports this. If you have documentation or resources in the industry that can support your statement, I’d very much like to know.
Sue, I need to know what was in the original posting that shows companies “riding on the shoulders” of government efforts. Upon review, the only possible one I can come up with would be the internet. None of the others make sense. Surely you don’t mean the power companies— Edison, Westinghouse and Tesla would most certainly disagree.
However, since the ground work was already put in place for the internet and there is no way possible to determine what would have happened had it not been put in place already, this is one of those fuzzy points. If it makes you feel better, I’m willing to concede that it exists as a result of governmental investment, but I’m not willing to concede that it necessarily would have expanded to what we have today had it remained the sole domain of the government. It may have, it may not have. Neither you nor I can do more than speculate. I believe that even without governmental ground work, the internet would still exist today. Maybe in the same or similar form, maybe in some other. Again, there’s really no way to know. It’s a belief I have given the general amount of technological advancement that goes on in industry all the time. It seems highly likely given the theories of inevitable discovery and concurrent invention, which is a real and documented thing, that my belief is correct. Government may have been there, but it was most likely unnecessary.
Sue, also, I was not necessarily arguing just general profitability and business model and that sort of thing. I was more going to the original posting’s context that it was an integral and necessary function, blah blah blah. So in response to your USPS comments, I don’t see that they’re as integral as they used to be. Historically, yes. Today, no. The original posting’s implication does not ring as true as it might have otherwise. Which is, after all, my point. I should have been more clear originally. Sorry.
So your last point, do I believe that companies would intentionally poison people to protect their bottom line? As a majority, on the whole, no. I don’t. And I have reasons. But since I hadn’t heard of the intentional release of the peanut butter, I went to look it up. I only found a few articles, though(recycled in similar form throughout many different outlets). It was the initial report of the *allegation* that it was intentional and a few followups about the investigations. However, I cannot find any followup on the findings of those investigations at all. It appears charges were never filed as far as I can tell even though the investigation has been going on since February.
But the company has closed down, and if they’re guilty, they’ll pay. That’s justice. And also my point. Makes quite an example for other companies that might do the same thing. And considering the USDA dropped the ball ( as did the Georgia DA– NOT a private lab contracted by the USDA as far as I can tell ), I’d say that justice is served in *spite* of the government.
I believe that this same thing would happen to ANY company that purposefully allowed poison to enter the marketplace.
But my original point in my original refutation was simply that there’s a lot of food out there never inspected. Lots of food that doesn’t have to be inspected. Lots of people eat it. Just like me. That food isn’t safe *because of the USDA* but simply *because of the intentions of the producers*. Given the USDA’s statements regarding their inability to inspect most producers, the outrageous length of time in between inspections(source: same articles about the intential contaminated peanut stuff) and yet still… there are so *very few* outbreaks as a percentage of the opportunity for them… doesn’t this essentially say that the original statement wasn’t only misleading, but also generally untrue on the whole? Doesn’t it also essentially support the notion that most food production is done in a safe and clean manner without direct enforcement from some agency? I think so. You may not. ::shrug::
Wow. This is hugely inflated and long winded and probably deluded and insane and most likely some form of republican propaganda at best or maybe some libertarian cockeral at worst!!! And I’m not even finished with debate you guys offered back.
Maybe you shouldn’t read it. It might just make sense.
Naw, who am I kidding? It’s just going to make you angry and more names and charges are going to be thrown at me.
I guess you can’t really talk anyone out of their religion. Especially when they’re so invested in it.
Time to turn off this computer. It’s costing money I pay to private power company and I’m not poor enough to get any subsidies.
I’m gonna turn on the radio or the TV instead. I’ll tune into a station that would most like exist whether or not the FCC was around. Yeah, I’ll turn on the TV and watch the weather guy, a meteorologist who came up with his own forecast after looking at the doppler radar that the broadcasting company owns privately. He’s gonna tell me what the weather is like… that thing that people have been doing for centuries, long before NWS and NOAA… It’ll be on in a few minutes. Give or take. I’m not too worried about it though. But if I was, it’s probably a great thing that I could be accurate down the microsecond with that nyukyular clock thingy I really need.
But then I’ll probably run up to the store for something, never once turning onto a DOT built road while driving my antique Studebaker I got from my grandpa. It runs great. I don’t think the NHTSA has ever seen it, but I’d bet it’ll make ‘em green with envy! She’s a beauty!
I will need to get some “lead substitute” for the gas I put in it, though. Since the EPA came along, now I’ve gotta do extra work and spend more $ to keep it running. I’ll pay electronically with my debit card. I can’t recall the last time I had cash on me. I’ll drive right by the mailbox since I haven’t put anything into it since January and the only thing that shows up in there is advertisements for credit cards, coupons for pantyhose and leaflets from the local illegals wanting to clean my house. I receive and pay all my bills electronically so there’s nothing worthwhile or time sensitive in there…
Anyway, I’ve got pork ribs in the smoker that I’m off to chow down on. I got ‘em at the local farm market. They’re not inspected. The girlie’s making a salad. From stuff we got at a stand this afternoon(not the farmer’s market… ’cause their veggies don’t ever look right). They’re not inspected either. She washed the veggies in water from our non-municipal water source, but…
Maybe I’ll die.
And you guys can sue on my behalf. That would be sweet. Oh, I’m actually tearing up at the thought! I love you guys!!!!!
<3
Kisses!
To why: The idea that all roadside stands could be exactly the same seems highly incredible to me. It’s never been the case and, due to the uniqueness of every individual who may run a stand, I’m willing to bet everything I own that it never will be the case.
The rest of your rant is a non-sequitur. It has absolutely nothing to do with the subject, which was a free-market.
Pish,
There is not one possible place you could be that is not on a road that was funded by public money. Whether it be town, county, state or federal. Even farm roads get subsidies. Cattle farmers are subsidized. This idea that private industries could in any way operate without people regulating them is prepostrous. Corporations as they exist today were not within the intent of the founders. Heck even Adam Smith would not like the corporations of today. They were meant to be limited entities that worked for the public good.
Your Studebaker is a perfect example of why there was a need for a government entity to be there. Lead was getting into the air and private industries didn’t see it as enough of a problem to take care of it themselves. They would not have done it without government intervention. This also goes for those private power companies you like to go on about. You know the ones who routinely take the tops off mountains and put cyanide into the water supply as part of the process. So they are taking public land to make a profit off of the people.
How about all those logging roads built into public wildlife reserves? You know the ones where the roads are paid for by government so that the lumber mills can sell our trees back to us? Ever bought a 2X4? Then you’re benefiting from the public. The US is NOT a free market, nor is China or any large stable economy. The US government heavily subsidizes the corporate world. On top of this despite your claims to the opposite almost all technological inventions are in some way related to either the porn industry or government research.(I’m not being flippant, many useful products actually come from the pornography industry)
Almost all medical research is done via the US government, to include orphan drugs, which are not profitable enough to do without government incentive, so these private industries failed to give customers what they want or work int he public good without government intervention, so people died or suffered because they weren’t profitable. Without government intervention the power industries would have power lines strewn all about despite the ability of wireless power transmission invented by Tesla, because it was more profitable to put up a number of power lines.
Oh by the way, our court system you brought up, publicly funded, without which you couldn’t even punish law breakers. The laws themselves are publicly funded, at least in theory, as the buildings and personell are funded by taxpayers. that peanut factory you were talking about intentionally let tainted samples of salmonella pass. Along with that they failed to provide a clean place for food production due to the lack of ability to check on places due to the FDA funding cuts.
Also as far as the EPA goes, power copmanies now don’t want to clean the mercury that comes out of their smokestacks even though it has proven to be detrimental to the children in the area. There’s those public companies thinking about the people again, especially since the have a mandated monopoly, which they spent vast amounts of money for through lobbying efforts. I am also glad to see that you glossed over the workers safety issues, the superfund, the multitude of people who consciously bilk the public, such as Bernie Madoff, but I guess that since the product collapsed on it’s own he shouldn’t count right? Also
I am very curious as to how in an area where you have no public roadways, there would be the population density to have anything other than dial-up internet access as the industry itself has said it is not cost effective to service low density areas, kind of like UPS, Fed-Ex, DHL. I also think you gloss over the constitutional right to have a postal service. Also all these television shows you apparently watch went over what was once the public airwaves. You remember the airwaves that have never made one dime for the public? Oh right we have local access stations that were mandated by the government. If you get any form of electronic communications or if you have ever gotten any type of electronic communication it has gone over public space. Now lets get into some fun stuff, private companies that actively work to take away the public’s rights.
Just so you know I too read and enjoyed Ayn Rand. I like that you have done your homework and there are a few points we agree on, but you tend to give far too much credit to the private industries.
It’s been a busy day. I intend to respond, but I don’t have the time right at the moment to go over all that I want to say.
I’ll leave you with this tidbit, though. I don’t have an argument that some levels of regulation and coordination are necessary. You don’t need to convince me of that and believe it. I just happen to think it’s overdone and not anywhere as effective as a lot of people would wish.
BTW – the roads in my neighborhood are specifically not state-maintained or built(or county or whatever). The roads that connect the neighborhoods together were built by developers as a concession to getting the zoning they wanted(it was in the papers… no public $$). There are offices and shopping centers on these roads. These roads that I and others use every day that the state does not own, did not build, did not subsidize, do not repair and do not clear of snow. These roads are private and owned as part of a private cooperative company.
So yeah, there is a possible place I could be. I really wish I felt comfortable enough to tell you where I live so that you could look it up. I’m not kidding, lying or exaggerating; I’m not trying to convince you of anything by making up “good sounding stuff”. Heck, I’m not even really trying to convince you of anything at all. hahaha I KNOW BETTER than to try that. I should live so long!! hahahahaha.
I just found the original thing absurd and demonstrated that it was at least possible that the concept itself was way overstated. Establishing it as confirmed fact was misleading.
another btw – the power companies don’t “take” private land. They have to buy it. Or establish easements and rights-of-way that they have to pay for and lease. These things are conditions of getting the permits and licensing from FERC and the DoE. It’s in the rulebook. LOOK IT UP. None of that comes from public cash, brother.
catchya when I’ve got more time.
PS – never read Rand. Well, Anthem, but that doesn’t really count much from what I’ve heard.
have a great night
“But I’m not even sure you can extrapolate from that roadside stand to the large corporations that run our economy. Yes, I know about this political talk about how small business makes the US economy work.”
Plus 1.
I make my living selling at farmers’ markets and while there is empirical truth to the idea that competition makes us all better, it’s also true that almost everything I need to make a living comes from very large vertically and horizontally integrated companies who consistently undermine competition by forming monopolies and buying out their competition.
You guys are all awesome. Pish Tosh is obviously super smart as is PT and most the rest of you (smarter than I. Check my grammar). It’s a tough argument. The internet and how we all use it has really become a game changer in the last decade or so and i don’t know how this is all going to play out. The government is not a bad thing. It’s not a good thing. It’s what we make of it. What the government was able to accomplish in the past (when we were all a little more racist, sexist, ageist, stupid, etc…) was amazing. The future will be pretty cool. I hope the government overhaul of health care goes through. I do. I do not like the way it is now. no one does. It will not be as bad as most say it will. It will not be as good as other hope it will be. People will still die far any number of reasons and it will still be frustrating to those left behind. I love watching this unfold. It’s hard for me to cheer for the democrats (which i identify myself as) because this whole thing is happening so fast and i think a lot of people need this explained more. It’s hard to support the republicans because of the whole being-an-unreasonable-caveman-about-everything thing.
whew. what to do?
as far as the private owned water companies and power companies goes i found this quote about how municipalities work. Thought it was interesting.
In general, though, regulation occurs when the government believes that the operator, left to his own devices, would behave in a way that is contrary to the government’s objectives.
rock on.
Best thing i have read so far:
“(I’m not being flippant, many useful products actually come from the pornography industry)”
and by the way. Ayn Rand is poo.
The mention of religion I find interesting as a person who was raised to believe in a religion. I grew up and learned things about the world and found to my dismay that what I had been taught was ultimate truth had no basis in any evidence. Many years later and I still struggle with this problem, and the fact that many people around me still continue to believe in this and other religions with no factual basis.
In the past few years, I’ve come to the horrifying realization that religion wasn’t the only thing in my life that was based on works of utter fiction. The free market Libertarianism that I’d proudly espoused for so long had no basis in fact either. It’s terrible to find yourself to be so wrong, especially that wrong had seemed so simple and beautiful, so right on the shimmering surface. Wishing doesn’t make something true. The bible isn’t true, and the free market isn’t the solution to everything. Love your neighbor is a fine sentiment, and market competition is a good thing in many cases, but blindly following out of faith in the face of reality isn’t.
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