’)This is the system Rush Limbaugh and the town hall mobs want so desperately to preserve.
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Oliver Willis
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BUT TEH SOCIALISMS!!!!! TEH RATIONING!!!! TEH DEATH SQUADS!!!! OH NOES!!!!!!
Once again we have an example where somebody didn’t take the time to carefully examine what it is they were buying and the ONLY solution in the minds of liberals is a government run health care system. She says quite clearly:
But we hadn’t read the fine print.
And then she goes on to complain that the government doesn’t make the fine print bigger. Of course, after she found out about it, she was able to locate the information she says the daddy-government should make easier for her to read.
SOYLENT GREEN IS PEEEEEEEOPLE!!!!!
And let me say that if there was a proposal that said insurance plans had to be made clearer to understand for consumes, I would support it. But this example doesn’t necessitate implementing the kind of plan the Democrats are proposing.
And if you lived in a city that had two HMOs to choose from and both put a $3000 cap on pregnancy and, oh, say, a $4000 cap on cancer and $2000 on heart surgery, you’d just do what the free market dictated and…what, exactly, Jay?
I see Jay has beaten me to the fact that this was spelled out for the guy to read. Instead, I’ll just once again bring up Barbara Wagner of Springfield, Oregon, who was told by the state program that provided her coverage would not cover the chemotherapy she needed, but would get her an appointment with the state’s version of Jack Kevorkian.
Hmm… surprise $7,000 bill or death? I know which I’d prefer…
J.
Shorter wingers:
GET ANOTHER JOB IF YOU WANT HEALTHCARE YOU LAZY LEECHES!!!!! PAY UP OR DIE, FUCKERS!!!!!
OH NOEZ PALIN SAID THEYRE GOING TO KILL HER BABY BCUZ OBAMA IS TEH EVIL
And if you lived in a city that had two HMOs to choose from…
…I’d call Bekins.
I see Jay has beaten me to the fact that this was spelled out for the guy to read. Instead, I’ll just once again bring up Barbara Wagner of Springfield, Oregon, who was told by the state program that provided her coverage would not cover the chemotherapy she needed, but would get her an appointment with the state’s version of Jack Kevorkian.
Jay Tea, we all know you don’t think before you post but for goodness sakes, when you can’t go two sentences without contradicting yourself, WTF?
Jay Tea, did Barbara Wagner read the fine print of the Oregon state plan which described why and how she could be denied care?
Did she not know that this was a possibility? Was she not aware that physician assisted suicide is legal in Oregon and covered by the plan? Why the shock and outrage. She should have known all this going in.
And Jay Tea, you said that if Wagner had private insurance she could have sued or tried to shame the company into paying her.
Why are you not suggesting that the mother sue the hospital or try to shame them into paying the rest of her bill? Nope. You seem to have withdrawn that particularly awesome option for her. Why is that?
Of course, maybe you were going to suggest she do what you did, Jay Tea, pay a portion of the bill and stick the tax payers with the rest. (Because we all know you read the part of your emergency room admittance forms which said you’d be liable in full for any costs of your care and you reneged on that one.)
There. The system works!
Basically, Jay Tea, you have no solutions for either woman but one of them seems to offer some bludgeon against health care reform so you’re happy to try and wield it.
Apparently, it doesn’t matter if it makes no fucking logical sense.
Hmm…
“Help me, government, because I’m too fucking stupid to read these long, complicated forms before I sign them in seventeen places, swearing that I know exactly what they say on every single page and wrap up very important parts of my life in them!”
I think I’ve heard that song before…
Oh, yeah, back in the housing crisis and the “predatory lenders” who also had page after page after page of signed forms, all attesting that the buyer had read and understood every aspect of the contract.
Sigh…
Fortunately, we now have a federal government that has no problem with recognizing that the vast majority of Americans are too fucking stupid to take care of themselves, to look after their own best interests, to actually read and understand things before we sign them saying we have read and understand them, and is ready, willing, and able to take care of us…
J.
Fortunately, we now have a federal government that has no problem with recognizing that the vast majority of Americans are too fucking stupid to take care of themselves…
Jay Tea, they will never be able to come with a way to help those, such as yourself, who seem too fucking stupid to breath.
Why to double down on the bile and contempt Mr. I Got Mine So Fuck You!
“Help me, government, because I’m too fucking stupid to read these long, complicated forms before I sign them in seventeen places, swearing that I know exactly what they say on every single page and wrap up very important parts of my life in them!”
Jay Tea, how exactly are we to reconcile this outburst with your apparently deep sympathy with Barbara Wagner?
She’s turning to the government for help with her treatment and had to know going in that it wouldn’t be covering some procedures or that there was a possibility it wouldn’t.
She had to sign forms, too, Jay Tea.
Can you help is sort this one out?
fafaroo, let me make it clear for you:
Under the current system, Ms. Wildman has been stuck with a $7,000 bill that she did not expect, but should have had she read what she signed.
Under a system very much like what you want, a woman in Oregon has been told that she won’t get a life-saving drug through her coverage, but that coverage will help her kill herself.
No need to complicate the matter. It really is that simple.
J.
Jay Tea,
So all your experiences with insurance companies have been satisfactory? Mine have pretty much sucked. Must be a “liberal” thing.
I think we’re closer to actual homicide over this health care debate than a lot of us realize. You stir up passion with ignorance and no good can possibly come of it. And all it would take is one more stupid comment like the one Palin made on Facebook today to do that.
This is a basic case of consumer expectations and an example in which the insurance company is exploiting its customers which the expectations of certain services and then dropping a huge charge on the people when the bills come due. If you want to support this kind of bullshit, by all means keep supporting the Republican party and shut your eyes and hears while saying “lalalalala nothing is wrong with the health insurance system!”
Doctors hate insurance companies and find them devious and exploitative in their determination never to pay. Customers hate insurance companies and find them devious and exploitative in their determination never to pay or revoke coverage.
Seems the last advocate of health insurance companies are health insurance executives and their toadies among movement conservatives.
So, so predictable. Every time libs are sucking wind on any debate on health care they trot these tug at your heartstrings stories. Anyone who takes a close look at it and mentions what the person could have or should have done is always met with the response durablend was so thrilled to come back with.
Shorter libs: “Set public policy based on one or two tragic stories, not what is good for everyone else.”
——
This guy is good: Libs want to bring back ‘Queen for a Day’
-
….Setting public policy for hundreds of millions of people based on the experiences of a few people is deadly. It may be why entitlements consumed two-thirds of the federal budget in recent years.
When Jack Bailey told the tales of people in need on “Queen for a Day,” it was called exploitation.
When liberals do it, it is called politics.
So Dennis,
All of your dealings with insurance companies have been satisfactory?
Every time libs are sucking wind on any debate on health care they trot these tug at your heartstrings stories.
And every time these stories appear, cons again show that they have no hearts on which one would find such strings.
Instead, I’ll just once again bring up Barbara Wagner of Springfield, Oregon, who was told by the state program that provided her coverage would not cover the chemotherapy she needed, but would get her an appointment with the state’s version of Jack Kevorkian.
Yes, we know, and given that I’m now two for two on handing your ass to you on that bullshit it’s been four days now of hilarity watching you pretend you know what you’re talking about spamming a story you clearly, yet again, copied and pasted from RedState over and over again.
That is seriously my favorite part of this- you’ve goulishly mentioned this lie about ten times in the last four days, and you have never- never, never- not once- linked to an actual story about it. Like this one, that mentions the same doctor who prescribed her that $4,000 a month medication the plan turned down also said she had only 4 to 6 months left to live. Again, another year-old story.
Do you know anything about Barbara Wagner? Do you even know if she’s alive or dead still? It’s been a year, clearly you must know, because naturally, you actually care about her, you stupid son of a bitch.
Every time libs are sucking wind on any debate on health care they trot these tug at your heartstrings stories. Anyone who takes a close look at it and mentions what the person could have or should have done is always met with the response durablend was so thrilled to come back with.
I’m sorry Dennis, shouldn’t you be directing this little diatribe at Jay Tea?
Sure we do, SpiderJ, we just don’t think think they should be exploited. Like the examples in the blog article on food stamps leading to obesity in low income family children and the case of Graeme Frost and SCHIP legislation that libs trotted out, finding out he was sending his kids to private school instead of paying for insurance. Anyone who questioned Frost then was villified by the netroots hounddogs.
And, of course, Dennis, we eagerly await your support for the claim that health care reform means that “Obama stormtroopers” will be implementing a “Put Granny to Perma-sleep Program.”
Anytime.
Sure we do, SpiderJ, we just don’t think think they should be exploited.
Once again, Dennis, you’re writing in a thread in which Jay Tea has once again brought up Barbara Wagner.
A woman who also signed a form, was denied coverage and is complaining about it.
Jay Tea has no problem exploiting her situation. Neither, for that matter, does the entire right wing noise machine.
Care to address your grossly overgeneralized comments to that?
I’m sure there have been times when I wasn’t pleased, but none come to mind, honestly. I’m never too happy when I see the annual premium go up on my pay statement and sometimes I choke when I go in to the pharmacy for a few Rx’s for my kids or me and my wife and one of them might not be available in a generic and it’s $30 or so co-pay, but that’s about it. I’ve got a daughter with constant migraine-like headaches that we can’t find what’s causing them after 5-6 years of seeking solutions for them. If we want to go the Johns Hopkins route or somewhere special that we can try to find some better relief for her, it may be a problem, but I haven’t looked in to it yet. I can’t imagine the situation of finding a solution would be any better with a government program.
I was working on one residence while living in another. I notified my insurance company of this. Four months later, I found out they had been insuring only one of the houses – a paperwork error on their part. Fixing this, they apparently sent a spy out who determined that I wasn’t living in one of the houses and demanded a large sum for expensive “unoccupied house” insurance. I moved into the new house while my wife stayed in the old one to avoid this expense.
A couple years after we were in the new house, it suffered storm damage from a tree that broke in a “once in 50 years” windstorm. Long story short, the adjuster refused to pay even the minimum bid for the restoration company, which he himself had recommended. Knowing structures, I also determined that the work his recommended company said they would do was crap. I wound up taking what the adjuster offered and did ALL of the work myself.
My neighbor, the insurance underwriter, warned me that any other claims I made in the next three years would almost certainly guarantee that I’d get dropped by that company, and that my house would be blacklisted as a “high risk property”, making it very difficult to get any coverage anyplace else. I proceeded to clear the entire area of all high risk trees. Despite notifying the insurance company of this, my rates went up (and have stayed up) 40+% over that of my neighbors. The underwriter neighbor told me that changing companies would make little difference.
Health care? I’ve heard firsthand, from people about their own nightmares with health insurance companies. They sound even worse than the homeowners. Why are you defending them again?
My take is that “conservatives” have simply never had these issues, therefore the cannot exist.
@fafaroo
Christ, falafaroo, is your dream of one day besting me like the Holy Grail for you?
To the right wing, corporations are always right and consumers are always wrong
Christ, falafaroo, is your dream of one day besting me like the Holy Grail for you?
Dennis, I think you need to finally admit that this has already happened.
It’s the left-right uppercut combination, fafaroo. Jay Tea is fighting fire with fire. I’m coming in with the Reagan ‘there you go again’ ‘going to the well’ shame tactic. We’re saving the uppercut for later.
East is east and west is west, fafaroo. If that day ever comes, rest assured, I will.
It’s the left-right uppercut combination, fafaroo. Jay Tea is fighting fire with fire. I’m coming in with the Reagan ‘there you go again’ ‘going to the well’ shame tactic. We’re saving the uppercut for later.
Oh, do excuse me, my uncontrollable giggling must look very rude. So anyway, what’s your damage modifier, and does it have to roll against Wisdom or Armor Class?
It’s funny we hear Republicans say that they do not want “faceless bureaucrats” making medical decisions but they have no problem with “private sector” “faceless bureaucrats” daily declining medical coverage and financially ruining good hard working people. And who says that the “private sector” is always right, do we forget failures like Long-Term Capital, WorldCom, Global Crossing, Enron, Tyco, AIG and Lehman Brothers. Of course the federal government will destroy heathcare by getting involved, Oh but wait, Medicare and Medicaid and our military men and women and the Senate and Congress get the best heathcare in the world, and oh, that’s right, its run by our federal government. I can understand why some may think that the federal government will fail, if you look at the past eight years as a current history, with failures like the financial meltdown and Katrina but the facts is they can and if we support them they will succeed.
How does shouting down to stop the conversation of the healthcare debate at town hall meetings, endears them to anyone. Especially when the organizations that are telling them where to go and what to do and say are Republicans political operatives, not real grassroots. How does shouting someone down or chasing them out like a lynch mob advanced the debate, it does not. So I think the American people will see through all of this and know, like the teabagger, the birthers, these lynch mobs types are just the same, people who have to resort to these tactics because they have no leadership to articulate what they real want. It’s easy to pickup a bus load of people who hate, and that’s all I been seeing, they hate and can’t debate. Too bad.
And if that fails, Paul, just be careful that they’ll hit with a left-right down-right-up-fierce punch uppercut. If you have over 2GB or RAM there might be a fire effect.
Jay Tea is fighting fire with fire. I’m coming in with the Reagan ‘there you go again’ ‘going to the well’ shame tactic. We’re saving the uppercut for later.
So you’re saying you’ve got nothing but canned zingers and empty talking points.
We knew that already, Dennis.
Oh my, I’ve made a comic laugh. Maybe if you told Ted Rall this my day would be complete. Actually, my whole year would be.
If you want to support this kind of bullshit, by all means keep supporting the Republican party and shut your eyes and hears while saying “lalalalala nothing is wrong with the health insurance system!”
This is a strawman argument. Who is it exactly that is saying there is “nothing wrong” with our current system exactly? This is in effect what you’re saying:
You: I like the Obama/Democrat health care plan.
Me: I don’t like it.
You: YOU THINK THERE’S NOTHING WRONG WITH OUR HEALTH CARE SYSTEM!
Add to that freD’s BS questions about “dealings with insurance companies always being satisfactory.” No, my dealings with health insurance companies as not always been satisfactory. But then again it hasn’t always been satisfactory with the state motor vehicle dept, credit card companies, banks, mortgage companies, cable companies, satellite companies, cell phone companies, phone companies, utility companies, grocery stores, gas stations, mechanics, fast food places, restaurants, electronics stores, web host providers….I could go on you know. Should we federal control over every industry where you have had an unsatisfactory experience?
Such blathering is total nonsense. By using this example here as evidence of why we need a total overhaul of the health care rests on the notion that the average American citizen is stupid and simply cannot be trusted to make such decisions on their own and that everybody is just out there to take advantage of that. “Oh no no no. You’re too stupid to know what is in your own insurance plan.” “Oh no no. You’re too stupid to know what you’re signing when buying a house.” “Oh no no. You’re too stupid to know what kind of car you should be driving.” That mindset is one that drives people like Oliver to dismiss critics as nothing more than a “mob.” Democratic legislators are using “the mob” as a convenient excuse to duck their constituents, particularly those who don’t support their point of view and actually want them to explain their proposals rather than a captive audience that just wants to hear about all of the goodies Uncle Sam is going to give them, courtesy of “the rich.”
fafaroo, go back up and look at the blog post above here….”This is the system Rush Limbaugh and the town hall mobs want so desperately to preserve.”
What is that if not a canned zinger and an empty talking point. You guys thrive on canned zingers and empty talking points. That’s more or less what these tug at your heartstrings anecdotes are. They’re like nectar to you guys. Gives you the chance to say ‘we’re the good guys and conservatives are the Rush Limbaughs and they don’t care about anybody but themselves’.
It’s not an empty talking point to remind you that libs have been doing that forever and will continue to do it. So when Jay Tea brings up a pertinent anecdote as a counter, and you guys try to knock it down, futile as the effort was, do any conservatives accuse you of being the uncaring assholes about her situation?
No, we don’t.
That’s not the uppercut, btw.
Jay comes in with the uppercut.
You guys thrive on canned zingers and empty talking points. That’s more or less what these tug at your heartstrings anecdotes are.
Dennis, in another thread you wrote this:
Dragging your mother in law into a policy discussion, Dennis? With totally bogus scare tactics to boot?
Why, Dennis, for shame!
Not only is this about as sadly anecdotal as you can get “My mother in law is afraid of Obama!” it’s entirely fact free!
I quoted the actual health care bill in response.
And what did you provide? An NRO article repeating the same baseless claim you did without a single actual, verifiable fact in its entirety.
So, Dennis, if you think you can continue to skate by with “Well, you do it, too!” it’s back to playground with you.
Should we federal control over every industry where you have had an unsatisfactory experience?
This what you think this post is about? Sad, Jay, really sad.
Jay, bullshit. Republicans don’t have any health care ideas of their own other than, “let people buy health insurance and then magically they will get their coverage taken care of when they get sick,” which simply is based on rank ignorance of how health insurance and health coverage and health care work. The current system is unsustainable, people are getting screwed and bankrupting left and right, and right-wingers are saying “lalalala i can’t hear you! nothing’s wrong! all these problems are the fault of those evil leeches who get sick and blame the innocent, wondrous health insurance companies.” That’s what we’ve been reduced to: seeing the right-wingers, in an absence of a george w. bush to mindlessly defend, come to the table to act as slavish devotees of health insurance companies.
Jay, you should be happy and thankful and kissing our moderate-liberal asses that our inability to agitate for radical changes has allowed health insurance companies to remain in existence. If you had half a brain, you’d be thanking us and actually joining us in creating a system that isn’t single payer. Instead we see you guys dancing in the street yelling, “nya nya nya! didn’t read the fine print! guess you’ll have to go bankrupt, sucker!!!” when we’re confronted with yet another instance of health insurance companies not covering health care.
Jay, first and foremost, let me say the following: your record on everything is wrong. Everything you advocate for has a record of being harmful to the economy, the environment, the well-being of americans, and our overall position in the world. You hold to an ideology that has a track record of failure and supported a president who did nothing to help the current problems with the health care system. We only deign to pay attention to your arguments because we think something might get through to you to help you cast aside your childish belief system and perhaps give you an idea how the real world works.
This is a strawman argument. Who is it exactly that is saying there is “nothing wrong” with our current system exactly?
No, it’s not. Because every time people point out a problem iwth the health care system, people like you say, “well, that’s not really a problem. the problem is that the people suffering aren’t rich/smart/lawyered up enough to have the system work for them. the system isn’t at fault at all.” You offer nothing to people and only serve to shill for the insurance companies’ broken incentives. As I said, you should be THANKING us that we are moderate enough to allow private insurance companies to exist. Instead, all we get is a bunch of lip from a bunch of know-0nothings mocking those who are getting bankrupted by health insurance companies screwing people over because it serves your need to mindlessly repeat republican talking points.
There’s a certain lack of outrage at the inability of insurance companies– whose job it is to provide modern, universal health coverage– to actually do their job and instead leave their customers on the hook for tens of thousands of dollars. That isn’t a problem for you. But when the government spends more money during a recession you throw an unhinged conniption fit, or when the president proposes invading iraq, you start cheering as though this is the greatest idea ever. You priorities are massively out of place, and you have no workable solutions, to say nothing of your poor track record.
You say you don’t like the health system and want to fix it: not only do you offer any solutions, you mock the people who get screwed, act as an apologist for the malefactors, and then come to us with a track record of bad decision making and an ideology that has proven itself to be a failure.
Jay, bullshit. Republicans don’t have any health care ideas of their own other than, “let people buy health insurance and then magically they will get their coverage taken care of when they get sick,”
This is total nonsense and you proves that you take your daily dose of Democratic talking points. I could point you to several alternatives that GOP legislators have proposed, but you need to do some legwork on your own.
The current system is unsustainable, people are getting screwed and bankrupting left and right, and right-wingers are saying “lalalala i can’t hear you! nothing’s wrong!
There you go with that strawman argument again.
all these problems are the fault of those evil leeches who get sick and blame the innocent, wondrous health insurance companies.”
And another. I’m not going to respond to this stuff. If you’re going to do is present logical fallacy after logical fallacy because I don’t buy into you’re point of view on the subject, then try to sell it somebody that will be enough of a sucker to fall for it.
Instead we see you guys dancing in the street yelling, “nya nya nya! didn’t read the fine print! guess you’ll have to go bankrupt, sucker!!!”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
when we’re confronted with yet another instance of health insurance companies not covering health care.
Confronted with what? In this instance the insurance company:
A. Told them what would be covered
B. Told them the maximum amount they would cover
The person who bought the policy admits she did not read it carefully enough and then she’s cry foul because the insurance does it what it said it would do. Now instead of building up the strawman argument and accusing me (or anybody else) of saying things they’re not saying, why don’t you tell us why a government run health care program is needed to deal with this kind of issue?
perhaps give you an idea how the real world works.
Right. I don’t live in the real world. I live in a fantasy land. Everything has gone right in my life and everybody else can just piss off, right? Give me a break. Once again you’re eliciting that attitude that I was talking about. Somebody who doesn’t believe in your ideology couldn’t possibly live in the “real world” and just cannot comprehend why somebody wouldn’t buy into your puppy dogs and ice cream fantasy world where the health care system would be in better hands being run by the government.
No, it’s not. Because every time people point out a problem iwth the health care system, people like you say, “well, that’s not really a problem. the problem is that the people suffering aren’t rich/smart/lawyered up enough to have the system work for them. the system isn’t at fault at all.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
As I said, you should be THANKING us that we are moderate enough to allow private insurance companies to exist.
This is the most idiotic thing I have read in a long long time.
mocking those who are getting bankrupted by health insurance companies screwing people over because it serves your need to mindlessly repeat republican talking points.
S-T-R-A-W M-A-N
The rest of your comment is the same drivel. I’m done.
When you start discussing the issue with some intellectual honesty, I’ll think about joining the fray again.
Jay:
Once again we have an example where somebody didn’t take the time to carefully examine what it is they were buying
Jay Tea:
I see Jay has beaten me to the fact that this was spelled out for the guy to read.
Dennis:
So, so predictable. Every time libs are sucking wind on any debate on health care they trot these tug at your heartstrings stories
You are all fucked up human beings with no understanding about how health care works, no experience with insurance companies, and no thoughts for how you might be faced with a situation where “it could happen to you.” None of these stories make you think “something is wrong.” They all make you think, “this is just an isolated incident, I’m fine.” After having wasted the last 8 years of your life shilling for an ideology that resulted in failure, you might have thought, “hm. maybe my instincts are wrong.” But no, dishonest insurance companies bankrupting individuals is all fun in a day’s work, and there is no need for reform at all.
The democrats have been banging this drum for a while. If Republicans had such good ideas on health care reform and how their solutions could have stopped these problems (if you think they’re problems), then how come you all sat on your asses for years and years and did nothing about them? Why do you only demand a say now?
McCain’s plan was “give everyone a tax credit and let them buy insurance on the individual market” which, as one could point out, if one had experience with these things, doesn’t work. To say nothing of the fact that Americans voted against that.
The person who bought the policy admits she did not read it carefully enough
Seriously, fuck off. Way to hate on the victims in a bid to offer a defense of your ideology. A health insurance plan claiming to offer someone “health coverage” that doesn’t cover the cost of a pregnancy is engaging in fraud. You don’t see that for a specific reason: over the last 8 years, you lashed out at liberals by shilling for GW Bush. Now you get your liberal-hate on by shilling for insurance companies. The enemy of your enemy is not your friend.
Paul, you raise several very interesting points. They’re wildly incorrect, but interesting nonetheless.
One of the reasons “we” prefer the “faceless bureaucrats” in the private sector versus the government is that, as a rule, the private sector is more sensitive to customer satisfaction. Also, in most cases, there are alternatives/competitors we can threaten to take our business to. Further, we can avail ourselves of the courts if we are being treated truly unjustly.
Unhappy with the government? No competition, and the Constitution says you can’t sue the government without their permission. Sure, you can try to take it up with your Congresscritter…
As far as your other point — “How does shouting down to stop the conversation of the healthcare debate at town hall meetings, endears them to anyone. Especially when the organizations that are telling them where to go and what to do and say are Republicans political operatives, not real grassroots.”
They’re shouting because they’re angry. And they’re angry because they’re being ignored and shut out and talked down to and scorned and threatened. (Notice one guy the SEIU thugs put in the hospital for not liking the plan.) They don’t like Obama telling them that “the time for talking is over” and that certain people need to shut up — “I don’t want the people who created the mess to do a lot of talking, I want them just out of the way so we can clean up the mess.”
And they’re not that fond of the Republican leadership in particular. This isn’t a pro-Republican move, it’s an anti-Obama-plan uprising.
Go ahead, name the “Republican operatives” who are pulling this together. Name the party leaders who are chortling over the whole thing that they’re managing.
Any of them that claim to do so are basically riding the tiger.
One more point I keep repeating: please distinguish what’s going on here from the sort of “community organizing” that Obama always brags about. My favorite example would be all those groups that brought tons of volunteers into key states to work on Obama’s campaign, and then registered to vote in those states. If that isn’t astroturfing, I don’t know what the hell else to call it.
J.
So, Tyro, you want to set aside the health insurance contract this woman signed voluntarily. Fine by me. So she wasn’t competent to understand it. I’ll go along with that.
What else did she sign in the same time frame? Perhaps those ought to be set aside, too. Mortgage? Employment contract? Marriage license? Car loan?
Tell you what. Why don’t we just say that she was legally incompetent for the last five years, nullify every agreement she made, and appoint a trustee to run her affairs for her until she can be certified as a sane, responsible, intelligent, independent adult. Each and every agreement she’s made will be reviewed and independently verified as appropriate.
That sound good to you?
Or should we just look at the ones that she didn’t read carefully and later decided she didn’t like?
J.
You know Jay, it’s funny how whenever I point out you’re making a bad argument, you say I’m creating a straw men. That’s actually the problem: your arguments are no better than straw men. You should be thankful to ever damn middle-of-the-road Democrat that they’re not going on full-bore advocacy of single payer which would destroy the entire private health care industry wholesale. We’re only doing that because we thought it would make you happier. Instead, as we getting nothing but a bunch of lip from people who don’t have any interest in making any changes at all. You’re a bunch of ungrateful, juvenile slobs. Yeah, we tried to come up with solutions that we thought would take Republican concerns about markets into consideration, but no appreciation, just some lashing out at a poor couple getting bankrupted because the health coverage they were sold was effectively fraudulent.
When you start discussing the issue with some intellectual honesty, I’ll think about joining the fray again.
Given that you only come here to mouth republican talking points, I hardly see why you think your presence in the fray is useful at all. You simply have a bug up your ass about Oliver and feel compelled to offer mindless repetition of republican platitudes — platitudes that have been shown to be an unmitigated disaster.
They’re shouting because they’re angry.
Yes, they’re angry because they lost an election. They were told that America was all about “the heartland” and the idea that a “good man” with “simply solutions” could “get the government off our backs” and that we’d all be fine if we just “sat back and let the market work its magic.” And when the American people rejected that, they flipped out into a violent rage. They’re screaming about socialism and Obama’s birth certificate, when just a few years ago they were calling the Dixie Chicks traitors and advocating the use of torture, and anyone taking cues from Dick Armey and Freedomworks is someone whose moral judgment is suspect.
Jay Tea, the fact that you believe that the system is working as intended, since you aren’t offering an alternative solution to this problem is all I need to know. And this is why you lost the election in 2008 and why you will continue to lose. I’ve never known you to be a shill for insurance companies before. It’s simply that you have your anti-liberal hate on, and while before you used that hate to taunt americans by advocating for GW Bush, now you act as an advocate for health insurance companies. There’s no difference: these are just manifestations of your ideology of hatred– when people advocate health reform on the basis of having been screwed by an insurance company, you turn your rage on them because you hate liberals and health reform more than you hate the outrage of people getting screwed.
Tyro:
I didn’t stand for election in 2008, so I didn’t lose squat. As far as being a shill for insurance companies — please. wizbangblog.com/content/2004/12/04/ill-have-a-blue.php I’m for reform of the system — but “reform” meaning “make it better,” not “trash the whole thing and replace it with something worse.”
As far as the rest of your most recent comment… looks like standard cut and paste bullshit you pull out when you have nothing else to say.
As far as “astroturfing,” here’s a fascinating article: which side looks more grass roots, and which looks more prefabricated?
http://www.lookingattheleft.com/2009/08/pelosi-astroturf-healthcare/
J.
So, Tyro, you want to set aside the health insurance contract this woman signed voluntarily.
So did Barbara Wagner, Jay Tea. Are you going to continue to exploit her situation then?
Dennis, how’s your mother-in-law? Still scaring her with lies?
Jay Tea, glad to see you’ve joined the lie club again with your repeatedly debunked talking points.
Our wingers have gone full liar.
Oh, please, Michael.
Our wingers have gone full liar.
Don’t be such a drama queen. “Oh, I’m shocked! I always thought they were at least partially honest, but now they’ve gone so far beyond the pale!”
You’ve always held that opinion, so don’t pretend to be having some great insight or revelation.
fafaroo, touche’. But at no point did I say that the Oregon plan was unfair. Grotesquely and obscenely improper, refreshingly honest in its obscenity, but fair — presuming that the terms were spelled out beforehand.
The reason I keep bringing it up is to show that one of the models for ObamaCare is heinously WORSE than the present system for this particular individual, and her circumstances seem hardly unique. It’s part of the argument I’ve been making for years: yes, the current system has problems and needs fixing. But for Christ’s sake, it’s hardly “the worst imaginable” — and the proposed “reform” the Obamoids are pushing is, in many cases, considerably WORSE than the present system.
J.
Jay Tea: Rushing to the support of usurers since 2008.
Anyone who questioned Frost then was villified by the netroots hounddogs.
For the last time, you guys weren’t villified for question it, you were villified for STALKING him. Get it?
I could point you to several alternatives that GOP legislators have proposed, but you need to do some legwork on your own.
You know, asking the opponent to find sources for you is a REALLY bad debate strategy.
I don’t know what you’re talking about, MOH. When I asked you yesterday to explain what I lied about, the reason you gave was something I didn’t even say. What lies are you talking about today? You never seem to explain your thoughts very well.
You didn’t debunk anything. This is your first post on the thread. Again, you don’t explain yourself. What has been debunked?
You’re a quite strange one, Michael Over Here.
The reason I keep bringing it up is to show that one of the models for ObamaCare is heinously WORSE than the present system for this particular individual, and her circumstances seem hardly unique.
Jay Tea, please present with evidence that a private insurance plan in Oregon would have covered the cost of the chemo treatment and that Barbara Wagner was, in fact, able to afford such a plan.
Even if such a plan existed in Oregon, if Wagner could afford it, she’d probably be rejected for having a pre-existing condition.
Of course, you should know all the facts in this case already since the story is over a year old and they have been outed to you numerous time.
The Oregon Health plan then is hardly “considerably WORSE than the present system” in Oregon, since Wagner would have had ZERO health care without it. Instead, she had the best health care she could get but was refused for a treatment that was exceedingly expensive with a low change of improving her condition.
What exactly do you find “Grotesquely and obscenely improper,” about the state of Oregon informing Wagner of all the options it would pay for? It would have just as well paid for hospice and palliative care as it would assisted suicide.
What’s so obscene about that? assisted suicide is legal in Oregon and no one was forcing her to choose that option.
So once again, you are puffed up with outrage but have no real solution for Wagner, or anyone in these situations.
And Jay Tea, if the Oregon plan is fair. The question is how is it any more grotesque than a plan that buries benefits among pages of pages of fine print and refuses to pay the full cost for a pregnancy?
I suppose you would be equally horrified if the private insurance plan only paid a portion of the cost to give birth but would have paid the full cost of an abortion.
That’s a lie, Zython.
Here, here’s everybody’s favorite, Paul Krugman, villifying the right for anything and everything to do with criticizing the Frost’s. Nothing about stalking, either. And a quite interesting last statement here, btw.
Even if you think adults have made bad choices — a baseless smear in the case of the Frosts, but put that on one side — only a truly vicious political movement would respond by punishing their injured children.
It’s a wonder he didn’t feel that way with the political movement of the rabid left and Sarah Palin’s children just two years later.
And it wasn’t stalking them to know their children attended private school and the parents drove very nice cars.
I think one aspect that is constanly left out on the right is thier failure to acknowledge that insurance companies don’t really want to help you out. They profit from your sickness and eventual debt from said “care”. Why reform when you make soo much money? Nothing will change until its so bad that millionaires declare bankruptcy because of Insurance Robber Barons.
I just don’t get why people put more trust into an insurance company where people were getting bonuses based on the number of claims they denied than a public option where some “government bureaucrat” would get his same union-mandated salary whether he approved all claims or zero claims.
Dennis, you see the parentheticals in Krugman’s graph below:
Can you tell us why they’re there?
I’m noticing a theme here.
Who are the bad guys in this situation, according to the Obamoids?
The pharmaceuticals.
The insurance companies.
The greedy doctors, especially those who might perform unnecessary procedures just to make money. (Such as tonsillectomies.)
And who are the heroes?
The liberal legislators.
The community organizers.
In brief, the villains are those who provide a needed and wanted good or service. The good guys are those who don’t, but instead demand something from the producers — usually while denouncing them for even thinking of making a profit off it.
Very, very enlightening.
J.
And when you can’t argue the facts, you rely more and more on spin.
Careful, fafaroo, you might be told you were delivered a Sweeping Anonymous Troll Spin Kick of +4 fortitude oh good Christ this is just comedy gold.
“Who are the bad guys in this situation, according to the Obamoids?”
You’re also leaving out the lobbyists who are running a media campaign behind a front company.
Or conservative media figures who supply a host of misleading rumors to smear groups trying to promote health care reform.
Or conspiracy theorists, who are busy concocting insane theories up to and including Obama as the Anti-Christ.
Can I get those added to your list? Thanks.
Dennis, yesterday when I (and many others) told you were the lies you got into a childish huff and said “So I was wrong about every 1 year instead of 5!” As if that was anywhere near what the lie was. You lied. You are a liar. Jay Tea continues to spout a proven false talking point, he too is a liar. I don’t mind being the asshole that has to tell you this. I’d much rather be an asshole than a liar.
I think one aspect that is constanly left out on the right is thier failure to acknowledge that insurance companies don’t really want to help you out. They profit from your sickness and eventual debt from said “care”.
I think one aspect that is constan[t]ly left out on the left is the failure to acknowledge that insurance companies have a vested interest in keeping you alive. A dead client can’t keep paying premiums.
But if you’re not a taxpayer (like most seniors and/or critically ill), then the government has no interest in keeping you alive. In fact, it’s in their interest to “get you off the books”.
I think one aspect that is constan[t]ly left out on the left is the failure to acknowledge that insurance companies have a vested interest in keeping you alive. A dead client can’t keep paying premiums.
This is pure gold. Tell that to my mother who had her premiums raised to the point of being effectively cancelled. Tell that to the people who spend years fighting against insurance companies to cover illnesses that the company has decided was “pre-existing”.
Insurance companies want you alive and paying until the moment you actually need them, then they want to find a way to find your claim invalid.
Plus, under the Obama health care plan you can keep your sacred health insurance company that you love so much. It’s just offering an alternative, that every other developed country has: a government run option.
What bullshit you spew.
And really sick clients are a ‘drain on their profitability’. If they are claiming more than they paid out in premiums, then why bother keeping them on? And it turns out, they have had that very thought, and rescission is an unfortunate reality for a lot of folks who become just a little too sick for the balance sheets.
And of course, if you have a pre-existing condition, this really isn’t a problem, is it? Because he probably won’t get insurance, because he’s too big of a risk. Suck to be him.
Plus, under the Obama health care plan you can keep your sacred health insurance company that you love so much.
That’s a lie. If you don’t stop spreading disinformation, I’m going to send your data to flag@whitehouse.gov.
In brief, the villains are those who provide a needed and wanted good or service. The good guys are those who don’t, but instead demand something from the producers — usually while denouncing them for even thinking of making a profit off it.
Take away the ideological rosy glasses, Mr. Naive, and you’re almost correct:
The villians are those who are abusing the public’s trust that they’re providing the most needed and wanted good or service for truly competitive prices. The good guys are those who have stepped up, promising to try and provide checks and balances that will reinstate a system of fair exchange between wanted goods or services for truly competitive prices.
The way you see the world is even more enlightening.
No, Farris. It’s the crackpots at Investors’ Business Daily who are lying.
I’ll be charitable and assume it was just a gullible mistake on your part.
From the St. Pete Times:
Really, Farris. If you’re going to cite “experts,” try to find some who aren’t lying right in people’s faces.
The good guys are those who have stepped up, promising to try and provide checks and balances that will reinstate a system of fair exchange between wanted goods or services for truly competitive prices.
Bit of a key word there, isn’t it? These are the same folks that promised:
- Social Security would remain solvent
- Medicare would remain solvent
- SCHIP would remain solvent
- Cash for Clunkers would remain solvent
- Fannie and Freddie would remain solvent
- $700 Billion was all it would take to fix the crisis
- By creating COBRAs, health care would be fixed.
- Unemployment wouldn’t rise above 8%.
- Gitmo would be closed
- Warrentles wiretapping would cease
- Signing statements would cease
- No backroom meetings with lobbyists
- Transparency and accountability
- No increase in taxes for those under $200K
- “… a net spending cut”
Quite a track record. And you still want to trust them with your health and well being?!?
There’s a definition for someone who does the same thing over and over and over and expects different results.
I think one aspect that is constan[t]ly left out on the left is the failure to acknowledge that insurance companies have a vested interest in keeping you alive as long as you’re not a drain on their profitability.
You’re welcome.
The line the editorial refers to is a clause that says the health insurance companies cannot enroll new people into the old plans.
Can you name for me a single company that remains solvent long-term after it is outlawed from signing up new clients? Just one.
I’ll wait…
“promising” is my own honest assessment. I’d rather a well-reasoned debate ensue than what the wingnuts mobs are trying to pull.
“Except as provided in this paragraph, the individual health insurance issuer offering such coverage does not enroll any individual in such coverage if the first effective date of coverage is on or after the first day” is the exact quote. Is there an attorney who knows the context of this quote?
The nonpartisan “Lewin Group” is what?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/22/AR2009072202216.html
OK, Farris. No more benefit of the doubt. Now you’re misleading on purpose.
SF,
Most of the stuff on that list has only happened on Fox News. Keeping the health care system exactly as it is, is insane.
Can you name for me a single company that remains solvent long-term after it is outlawed from signing up new clients?
That clause does NOT outlaw any company from “signing up new clients.” See above.
Can you name for me a single company that remains solvent long-term after it is outlawed from signing up new clients?
Save, you’ve long held the title of Stupidest Troll in these threads but you must have recently added brain damage to your list of liabilities.
The bill does not prevent insurance companies from signing up new clients.
What is says is that insurance companies must offer new plans that meet minimum government requirements for coverage and that all new clients must be enrolled in those plans, not the old ones, which will not meet the new standards.
It’s like banning cars with low emissions. It doesn’t mean car companies can’t sell customers new cars. It means they can’t sell them older cars that don’t meet the new emissions standards.
Clearly you didn’t put one second of thought into your comments. You just parroted an article full of distortions and lies and never looked back.
Typical.
What is says is that insurance companies must offer new plans that meet minimum government requirements for coverage and that all new clients must be enrolled in those plans
And just what are those “minimum government requirements”? Obama says “everyone, no matter what pre-existing condition will be covered”. Which means that, in order to be able to cover everyone, companies are going to have to skyrocket their prices. Which will leave the “public option” the only plan left. Just the way Barney Frank drew it up.
That’s change we can believe in!
Oh, and what happens when people with existing coverage have to renew it? Everyone I know has to reup once a year and by definition each year is a “new policy”. When they renew, will they have to enroll in a plan that “meets minimum requirements”? Just another Obama lie…
Obama says “everyone, no matter what pre-existing condition will be covered”. Which means that, in order to be able to cover everyone, companies are going to have to skyrocket their prices.
Or the government.
Dennis – “Shorter libs: “Set public policy based on one or two tragic stories, not what is good for everyone else.””
Butt bars are doing the same thing everyday; find one or two examples of the system not working properly (Hannibal and Levine have a particular fondness of using Canadian and British examples) and then build a case for not reforming your health care system. Fuck.
Which will leave the “public option” the only plan left. Just the way Barney Frank drew it up.
Private health insurance is doing just fine in countries like Canada, France and Great Britain. It will do just fine here, as well.
Hunh. Farris isn’t talking about the IBD editorial claims anymore? Wonder why.
And let’s see, I’m pretty sure he had set down his goalposts at “companies will be outlawed from signing up new clients.”
Where’d they go?
That Politifact.com article works for me. Thank God for the internet. Good thing all these “nonpartisan” spun opinions are being checked out.
That is the problem with the right. They read shit like Investor’s Business Daily or listen to Rush and instead of maybe checking it out for themselves or even seeing what a watchdog says about it, they just believe it. They just believe all of it.
Then again, what am I complaining about, conservative ignorance puts food on my table and in my dog’s bowl.
Wonder why.
Yeah, in the longer threads it becomes so much more obvious when the trolls get called on their BS and just suddenly stop talking about it completely.
But they always come back another day. What’s up with that?
I also find the argument about people using personal stories in order to illustrate policies they care about kind of funny from the people who pushed ads like this and whose justification for everything for almost 8 years was
9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11!
That is the problem with the right. They read shit like Investor’s Business Daily or listen to Rush and instead of maybe checking it out for themselves or even seeing what a watchdog says about it, they just believe it. They just believe all of it.
Indeed. Dennis has yet to return to another thread after cutting and running from a link to a completely bogus NRO article.
Much like Save, he read it. Bought it. Spread it. Cannot defend it against the facts.
What continually amazes me is how much conservative argument relies on distorting the facts. It really wouldn’t be very hard to make an argument–a factual one–in opposition to Mr. Obama’s health care proposals.
But rather than do that, conservative outlets like IBD and NRO would rather engage in making bogus claims like the one Farris cited and couldn’t defend.
@Jay:
And let me say that if there was a proposal that said insurance plans had to be made clearer to understand for consumes, I would support it.
Good news! See Sec. 133 of the current House bill: Requiring Information Transparency and Plan Disclosure, Paragraph (2) Plain Language.
Ignorance is strength: This machine kills ignorance.
I don’t know what you’re talking about, MOH. When I asked you yesterday to explain what I lied about, the reason you gave was something I didn’t even say. What lies are you talking about today? You never seem to explain your thoughts very well.
He’s talking about the fact that you can opt out of the 5 year visits entirely. Moral of the story: Don’t ask questions for the sake of asking.
A dead client can’t keep paying premiums.
I wouldn’t put it past them to try to find a loophole for that as well.
I just want to say that August J. Pollack’s take-down of yet another of Jay’s bullshit talking-point/cut-n-paste jobs is the stuff of internet legend:
http://www.oliverwillis.com/2009/08/08/insurance-nightmares/#comment-169524
The story of the woman in Oregon is very sad, but what’s worse is that the wing-nuts are trying to exploit the story of someone who was fucked over by the private insurance industry into a cautionary tale about how great the private insurance industry is.
Honestly, I don’t know how wing-nuts like Jay and Dennis can sleep with themselves. I imagine they’re just highly dysfunctional personalities, bordering on sociopathic. A lot of plain stupidity and ignorance must help them get through the night as well. Just a sheer contempt for other human beings, and a total inability to engage in empathy.
Jaim, we both have wives and children. Families, Jaim. You sit in an incredibly small living space on the other side of the world and lash out at Americans every morning when you wake up. It’s you who shows contempt on every post you write here. We both work here and raise our families and pray with them and teach them and support them and interact with their friends and their friends’ families and our communities. We engage in boatloads of empathy. You have no clue what real empathy is. I’m not speaking for Jay but I’m sure it’s the case with him too that we both live empathy from the moment we wake up in the morning till the moment we fall asleep at night. You pretty much sit there by yourself and write about people you hate- it’s never anything other than that.
You ran away from even the possibility of all that to another country where you are quite obviously miserable. So you blog and bash people back home.
That’s your only sign of empathy, that you think you are bashing Americans who are on the wrong side and that’s empathetic to the people on your side. You don’t even contribute financially to their plights, the expat exclusion of teaching abroad was quite enticing to you…no federal taxes, woohoo!.
Bravo, Jaim. A real American hero you are.
This country needs more people like you.
“Just a sheer contempt for other human beings, and a total inability to engage in empathy.”
What a complete asshole.
Oliver, that’s what you hate about Rush Limbaugh and Bill O’Reilly.
There’s not one wit of difference other than you believe you are on the right side of matters.
For once, I agree with Dennis. Conservative ignorance does put food on O’Reilly and Limbaugh’s table. Good job dennis for pointing that out.
Here’s a definition of contempt by Jay Tea:
“… the vast majority of Americans are too fucking stupid to take care of themselves … .”
Um, I’ve read quite a lot of Dennis comments of late and the whole empathy thing doesn’t seem to have reached the page. Could this be a problem with WordPress?
I hit a nerve, apparently.
Dennis, humanity wants you back. Seriously. But you have to make the effort.
Jaim no pay taxes.
Jaim bitch about Americans.
Jaim hypocrite looking for handout.
Yes, I do fuckwit.
And I bitch about wing-nuts like you.
Handout? I work for a living, son. You should try it.
(BTW, are you ever not trolling this site? Seriously man, get a job.)
I don’t work on Sunday and you didn’t pay any taxes, Jaim.
You want to claim you only took stock gains last year and you let your dog stocks sit and fester.
The likelihood of that is infinitesimally small.
You bitch about wing-nuts like me because you want more of my money.
Jaim, people in Korea don’t think you’re even a professional. Anyone who can speak English will do.
You said you left America because you didn’t like the America as it was, and now you live in a country that doesn’t give a shit about what you do.
No wonder you’re miserable. I probably would be too.
Higher taxes on us and a little more money given to you isn’t going to solve your problems, Jaim. Your dad paying your way through elite private school should’ve already taught you that by now. It’s hard to let go of the teat, isn’t it.
The Millionaire Next Door…. it’s all in there. I’m thinking of emailing the authors and telling them if they’re going to write another sequel that I know of the perfect test case for them to write about.
It’s not considered a conservative book either; you should buy it.
“You bitch about wing-nuts like me because you want more of my money.”
Unemployed people don’t have much money.
“You said you left America because you didn’t like the America as it was, and now you live in a country that doesn’t give a shit about what you do.”
America was a pretty fucked up place under Bush. And I like to travel, so it was a win-win.
Anyways, since you bitched out when I accepted your offer to fly home and beat your ass in front of your family, you really don’t have much of a leg to stand on.
Carry on, little Dennis the coward. Carry on.
You bitch about wing-nuts like me because you want more of my money.
Yes, that’s it. It’s not the pointless wars, it’s not depriving gays of rights to fuel your undeserved sense of self-worth, it’s not wanting to punish women for liking sex, nope, it’s just the money.
Jaim, people in Korea don’t think you’re even a professional. Anyone who can speak English will do.
What the hell would YOU know about Korea. Just because you have an irrational hatred of foreigners, doesn’t mean everyone else does.
That can be true or it may not be. People with money may choose not to work. Jaim, it’s not about you not making much or making a whole lot, or paying a lot of taxes or not paying much at all. It’s you not paying any and then demanding someone kiss your ass because you say they owe you that for federal assistance they received. You love to call me your favorite middle school name of punk-ass bitch, but Jaim, that is being the quintessential punk-ass bitch.
I have plenty to stand on. Oliver asked us to cool it so since it’s his blog, I will honor it. You come now or in the next week or so and I’ll pay. I won’t pay you if your hakwon is already paying for it, which it likely is, and when you were already coming anyway. That’s kid-stuff, Jaim. But let’s table this since OW asked us to and we’ll talk in Dec. My fam won’t be coming along, but you’re welcome to follow me home afterwards if you’d like. I’ve got a few books I’d love to have you take a look at and I’d be glad to show you the homestead and hopefully give you some inspiration about what hard work and good family life is all about.
People can change, Jaim. It’s not too late.
And you do have dental, right? No way am I fighting the f’ing DC traffic to get up there if you don’t.
“I have plenty to stand on. Oliver asked us to cool it so since it’s his blog, I will honor it.”
God you’re a freaking coward.
“But let’s table this since OW asked us”
God you’re a freaking coward.
Like I said Dennis, the first rule of being a bitch-ass punk like yourself is to not make promises you can’t keep. I was actually the one who tried to play things cool after you made the offer then backed out of it, but you continued to make personal attacks against me and my profession.
You reap what you sow. And you’ve been sowing a lot of cowardly bullshit during your tenure here. Expect to be held accountable for it.
August J. Pollak: It is very American to want to help our fellow countryman. I believe in my government especially our men and women in our military, firefighters and police. You, not so much. Lets face it the previous administration did nothing, they have no ideas (except start two wars of choice that are bankrupting our country with all the “war profiteering” contracts to Halliburton) well you and I will just have to agree to not agree. I did not believe any of the Republican rhetoric before the last election and I do not believe them now. I do not believe that your sentiments are in line with the majority, I read all your comments, very odd, very troll like.