Can you read? Try it again, Jay.

Run along Fafaroo.

No it doesn’t, because what’s at issue is not whether it’s ever justifiable to defend yourself against the sops but your blatant hypocrisy.

The question is why would you support Gates if he returned fire on Crowley in defense of his life and liberty, but not support Gates for merely yelling at Crowley in response to what he saw as a violation of his civil rights.

The other question is why are you taking Crowley’s report as gospel, in the incident as it occurred, while in your hypothetical you’re giving Gates every benefit of the doubt?

Of course, in your scenario, if Crowley came in guns blazing Gates would be justified in defending himself.

But in the incident as it actually happened, Gates was trying to get Crowley’s name and badge number presumably to seek redress for what he saw as a violation of his rights. Crowley was not justified in arresting Gates for being angry that his request was refused.

Of course, it’s Gates’ word vs Crowley’s. And, again, if the incident had unfolded per your hypothetical, and Gate’s and Crowley had survived, I find it hard to believe that you would be here defending Gates if Crowley’s police report presented some justification for shooting first.

Gosh, Sean you had a point?

I asked you a simple question. It merits a simple answer.

If Crowley had walked up the steps to Gates door and upon seeing Gates inside, drew his sidearm and started firing at Gates, would Gates be justified in returning fire if he had access to a gun?

Yes or no?

Sean, you implied that some supporters of Gates secretly wished greater harm had befallen Gates.

Based on what, exactly? Oh right, nothing.

Clearly, Jay, you believe the answer is yes. Now I believe that if this had happened, shooting back at a police officer would be the worst thing that Gates, or anyone could do. You seem not to be thinking beyond your knee jerk “shoot em all let God sort em out” mentality. Do you really think that Gates, or anyone, would emerge from that situation alive?

But let’s break it down. What we have in the actual situation that happened a dispute between an officer and a citizen that comes down to Gates’ word vs the cops’.

If this were a shooting incident and Gates had actually survived — and not been shot down by Crowley or his backup or the dozens of other cops who would shown up within minutes of hearing “officer under fire” on the radio — it still would have come down to Crowley’s word vs Gates as to why the shooting occurred.

And no doubt you would be taking Crowley’s side in that debate, as well.

You take the cops’ word as gospel even going to so far as to exaggerate what actually happened — “If I stand in my front yard and then proceed to yell and scream at people as they walk by, then I am being disorderly.” — because Gates was not yelling at everyone who passed by, he was yelling at the cop who he believed had violated his civil rights or was acting in a racially insensitive manner.

Had that escalated to a shooting, you would be here right now quoting the police report, “Crowley said Gates made a sudden threatening move with his right hand! Crowley had to assume the worst! He had no choice but to fire on Gates! It’s all there in the report!”

And if Gates had said, “I had done nothing wrong. I was in my own home. I did not make a sudden move and was acting in self-defense” you would no doubt be denigrating Gates by saying: “Once Crowley was convinced Gates was the lawful resident of the home, why didn’t Gates just leave well enough alone? Why did he make a sudden threatening move?!?!?!”

Jay, your words are plain as day for all to see. If a cop shoots at you, and you haven’t done anything wrong, you are justified in shooting back. But who decides whether you’ve done nothing wrong? Clearly, if the cop is shooting at you, he’s decided you’ve done something seriously wrong. But you leave open the option for every citizen to return fire anyway if they feel they’ve done nothing wrong.

And then presumably everyone can figure out who was right and who was wrong after the smoke clears and the corpses are counted.

By your logic, Jay, it would be okay for Gates to resist arrest. After all, Gates believed he had done nothing wrong.

You gotta be kidding.

Nope. That’s how it happened per Crowley. And given that numerous witnesses say that Gates did become loud and disruptive I can’t see resonably ruling it out as a possiblity that Gates was aggitated enough to keep talking after he’s asked a question. I’ve seen people who are getting angry do it all the time.

Did it happen on this occasion? We don’t know. The only two people who have made statements contradict each other. Neither of which seems immediately dismissible as “kidding” IMHO.

But lacking a credible third party, all the Crowley defenders have no problem accepting his version of events.

Pretty sure the Crowley defenders would make a very similar comment about the Gates defenders. So where does that leave folks?

IMHO that’s the crux of where things started to go out of hand. Unfortunately, per Gates, yes, Crowley wouldn’t answer unless they stepped outside. But per Crowley, he tried to answer but Gates kept talking over his reply. And lacking a credible third party it’s he said/he said, and we don’t know who was first in the wrong.

Tell ya what. I’ll work on my comprehension if you work on yours. Twice I’ve explained what I saw as an inconsistency or double standard in your original post. Twice you’ve ignored it to complain about something else.

And, apparently, were damfool enough to think you’d get away without being called on it.

On the contrary, I fully realize I’ve been selected as the Cassandra pinata for discussions involving Gates. So it goes.

No, he wasn’t.

You can debate whether he should have been arrested or not. (My opinion, for example, is that he the situation shouldn’t have gotten that far.) But the fact is he wasn’t arrested for what he did inside his home.

But let’s not stop facts from getting in the way, shall we?

Because when not behind a wall he’s in public view.

Would you have any problem with him walking around naked or making love to his significant other inside his house? Would you have a problem with him doing it on his front lawn?

Again, show me anywhere that I presented speculation as fact, where I claimed opinion was how things actually are.

He’s not Rick James bitch!

No, that is not what I said at all. It had nothing to do with “feelings.” Of course, your intellectual dishonesty knows no bounds and I refuse to engage on the issue because you do nothing but lie. It’s rather pathetic. I will comment for one last time on something else you write further down because it is just more evidence of your propensity to be completely dishonest, and…well….stupid. This is for the sake of anybody else that didn’t follow that thread.

In other words, if police officer tells a black man to stop yelling, and he should shut the fuck up straight away or else face the consequences, despite the long and well documented history of police discrimination and racial profiling.

If the same cop started shooting at the black man, he would be well within his rights to start shooting back because of the equally long and well-documented history of police randomly firing on innocent citizens.

Ahh yes. Bringing on the stupid in gobs. I find it rather hilarious when people wear bright signs that say, “I AM A MORON! YES I. AM. A. MORON!”

First of all, we’ll deal with your first comment which is of course, dishonest. Surprise surprise! This was not about a police officer “telling a black man to stop yelling.” It also has nothing to do with racial profiling because profiling didn’t come into play once Crowley left Gates house so now you’re just sputtering inane Fafaroo-like drivel. “Yelling” does not automatically make one’s behavior disorderly. If I am out in my yard playing with my kids and we’re yelling and having a good time, that’s one thing. If I stand in my front yard and then proceed to yell and scream at people as they walk by, then I am being disorderly. Now I hope I didn’t your head explode with that simple explanation.

As for your second paragraph I will ask you a very simple yes or no question. Let’s see if you have the balls to answer honestly:

If Crowley had walked up the steps to Gates door and upon seeing Gates inside, drew his sidearm and started firing at Gates, would Gates be justified in returning fire if he had access to a gun, yes or no?

Speak for yourself.

Yep, and they didn’t even bother to sprinkle any crack on him, LOL!