Kucinich Rips David Gratzer on Canadian Health Care
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David Gratzer is from the conservative Manhattan Institute, one of the organizations designed to obstruct progressive change in America. In this case, he gets confronted on statistics about Canada’s health care and conservative FUD about waiting lines and rationing, etc.
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Dennis Kucinich is my hero.
All hail Dennis Kucinich. Very.well.done.
Gratzer is a total douchebag. He tries to cherry pick stats from Ontario while ignoring stats from the whole country.
“So scott, does that mean that only people in Ontario are screwed?”
If you know anything about the population of Canada, you would know this question is stupid.
“Why do Canadians have lower percentage survival rates from common cancers?”
Why do Canadians live longer?
“How many americans have to go to canada for health care vs canadians coming here.?”
Do you considering buying Canadian drugs coming to Canada for health care?
“The only ripping here was Kucinich abusing his bully pulpit to walk all over a guy who is testifying before his committee.”
You are simply blinded by your bias if you think that.
Right winger David Gratzer’s false testimony was correctly challenged.
The right wing Manhattan Institute is designed to provide liars with a fig-leaf of credibility while their only true purpose is to protect the interests of corporations at the expense of the American citizenry.
“Why do Canadians have lower percentage survival rates from common cancers?”
Because Canadians live significantly longer lives than US.
The longer you live the more likely you are to not survive common cancers and other maladies.
Canadians live significantly longer lives than Americans and do so at significantly lower costs because Canada doesn’t allow the corporate-medical-industry looters to rob their healthcare system.
“How many americans have to go to canada for health care vs canadians coming here.?”
Fewer than the number of Americans that go to Canada (and Mexico) to buy their life-saving medications because they can’t afford the prices in the US.
“What percentage of the “50 million unisured” [sic] americans [sic]actually CAN afford insurance but choose not to purchase it?”
The better questions are:
How many of the “50 million uninsured” Americans tried to get health insurance and were repeatedly rejected by the corporate-medical-insurance industry?
How many of the “50 million uninsured” Americans had health insurance which was rescinded by corporate-medical-industry bureaucrats?
How many of the “50 million uninsured” Americans are children and are in no way are capable of purchasing something as complicated as a corporate-medical-insurance industries product?
Canada has a substandard healthcare system
If Canada is substandard at a #30 WHO ranking, what are we at #37?
we are a homogeneous, predominantly white society with few inner cities,
You don’t know what the f**k you’re talking about.
“the rest of us have a longer lifespan because we are a homogeneous, predominantly white society with few inner cities, drug abusers and murders (predominately minority) of young people”
So it’s the blacks who are to blame for your poor rating?
Ditto passerby, you know very little about Canada.
usualsuspect: “Sorry grandma, you are going to die of your cancer cause Canada has a substandard healthcare system.”
No, you shithead, people tend to die of cancer up here, because we live long enough to get cancer.
“But the good news is, the rest of us have a longer lifespan because we are a homogeneous, predominantly white society with few inner cities, drug abusers and murders (predominately minority) of young people which tends to skew the lifespan data”
Drug abusers and murders are predominately minority?
Did you just say that?
I must have misread that.
Please tell me I misread that and you can give a simple explanation for what you meant.
‘Gratzer is a total douchebag. He tries to cherry pick stats from Ontario while ignoring stats from the whole country.’
I live in Toronto, Canada; 5 weeks ago I dislocated my shoulder, but fortunately I live very close to a hospital. After an initial examination from my Dad, a GP, we went to the emergency room, and after x-rays and an exam from an orthopedic specialist, I was given a shot of Demerol and had my shoulder set, and woke up an hour later and was released.
Total time spent in the hospital from beginning to end; 3.5 hours.
Total cost: $0, including medication and sling.
ANYONE suggesting the US has the BEST health care system in the world is completely full of shit.
Those suggesting the US CANNOT offer this type of service to ALL of their citizens is lying their ass off.
‘talk about cherry picking. Kucinich cherry picks his numbers from lord knows where…’
StatsCan is Canada’s national statistical agency, like the US Census Bureau.
‘Sorry grandma, you are going to die of your cancer cause Canada has a substandard healthcare system. But the good news is, the rest of us have a longer lifespan because we are a homogeneous, predominantly white society with few inner cities, drug abusers and murders (predominately minority) of young people which tends to skew the lifespan data’
Not a SINGLE accurate statement in that entire paragraph.
You must work for an HMO.
jrfunkenstein, you are my hero on this thread. Great posts and rebuttals to the thread.
I am a US Citizen and I wish we had a health care system like Canada’s. Fighting with my HMO (will admit 100% paid for by my employer) to recover MY costs for a Drs visit to address a kidney infection. Missed 4 days of work and paid $376.59 for a shot, prescription and a urinanalysis.
Missing 4 days of work cost me $800 in lost wages, plus the $376.69. So, I lost $1,176.59 of my money for a kidney infection.
Single-payer Health for all in the US!!
The “usual ‘Republican’ suspect” thinks only white people count:
“the good news is, the rest of us have a longer lifespan because we are a homogeneous, predominantly white society with few inner cities, drug abusers and murders (predominately minority) of young people which tends to skew the lifespan data”
This follows the right wing math of “Byron York: Black people don’t count.”
But the “usual ‘Republican’ suspect” goes one step farther, excluding everyone that’s not ‘homogeneously’ “white”.
Hispanic and Asian voters take note….
And the crazy thing is, they don’t understand why they are called racists…
Gratzer was responsible for the zingers Rudy told about cancer death rates in England and Canada. Even the source he used to extrapolate his numbgers from says he’s wrong. He’s a lying douchebag.
‘and jesus funk, a dislocated shoulder? Of course you were seen quickly, you had the “in” with Daddy, he hooked you up. Hey my family will never have a problem, it is the poor schmoe who has to wait for treatment.’
You couldn’t be more full of shit; we went to the hospital in my neighborhood, not the one my Dad is associated with; I received no preferential treatment, as my Dad has NO affiliation with that hospital. I waited my turn in emergency and for the ortho specialist, LIKE EVERYONE ELSE.
smtpgirl; yours is an increasingly common story when it comes to the for profit health industry in the US, and is the reason Obama is pushing so hard for drastic changes to a broken system.
I hope your condition has improved, in spite of the sub-par treatment that passes for health care in your country.
‘And yes Strowbridge, I did say that. You know why? Because blacks are 7 times more likely to be murderers than whites. That ain’t racist, that is a fact based on DOJ statshttp://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/tables/oracetab.htm’
And White Conservatives are 30 times more likely to be racists than any other demographic in the US.
My source? YOUR POSTS.
The “usual ‘Republican’ suspect” cites the “Department of Justice” without realizing that Republican Palin has renamed it the US “Department of Law” based on her authority as Queen of the Right Wing.
Apparently Palin believes the “Department of Law” protects the President, something that only someone who didn’t know what the Executive branch did would say…
oh, wait…
Republican Palin didn’t have a clue as to what the Vice President did in 2008 why would it surprise anyone that Republican Palin doesn’t know what the “Department of Justice” does in 2009?
Ignorance is a prized asset on the right, without it Republicans would never get elected..
“usual ‘Republican’ suspect”: “Oh, and smtp girl? I will bet you money that you have spent more than 300$ on a purse.”
The “usual ‘Republican’ suspect” has dropped all pretense and has completely outed themselves as a white racist and a sexist.
Hispanic and Asian and Women voters take note….
News Refernce,the Sarah Palin DOJ post had absolutely nothing to do with the conversation, and remarking about the likelihood that a women might shell out $300 for a purse is hardly sexist.
Michelle Obama just shelled out $6,000 for an Italian designer purse. Is it sexist to wonder why? Women like purses, so what? That’d be like calling a woman sexist for asking why a guy just spent $3,000 on a new Rolex when he was bitching because his co-pay for his blood pressure medicine just went up $10.
What the hell is wrong with you? Sounds like you’ve never been in a relationship with anyone but your computer.
Republican Sarah Palin spent $150,000 dollars of Republican Party money on designer clothes during the worst economic disaster since the Republican Great Depression.
But hey, right wingers love ignorant grifters, it’s the essence of the Republican Party.
Right winger “Dennis” illustrates the ‘grifter’ impulse of the Republican Party, his own citation repudiates his assertion: “White House denies manufacturer’s boast that First Lady carried their $5,950 bag”
Right winger “Dennis” is, as usual, blatantly lying.
Does your wife know how dishonest you are “Dennis”?
Has she caught you on the “Appalachian Trail”, yet?
——
Told that Obama’s office denied the bag was the high-end VBH clutch, Kelly Vitko, a rep for the company replied, “It’s definitely ours [manila bag].”</b
———
I think the company knows what their own products look like, Newsy.
Who are you going to believe, News Ref, the White House or your lying eyes?
I’ve walked the back streets in LA where you could get a perfect replica of a Louis Vuitton bag for $10.
The company is looking for free advertising and you’re looking to take a cheap shot, “Dennis”.
The US has a worse infant mortality rate than 43 other countries and the entire European Union combined according to the the CIA World Factbook.
The US has a worse life expectancy rate than 49 other countries.
Overall, the US health system ranks behind 36 other countries according to the World Health Organization.
“The U. S. health system spends a higher portion of its gross domestic product than any other country but ranks 37 out of 191 countries according to its performance, the report finds. The United Kingdom, which spends just six percent of gross domestic product (GDP) on health services, ranks 18th.”
Despite having lousy rankings the US spends more per capita and more as a percentage of GDP than any other nation on earth because the private corporate-medical-industry loots billions out of the American health system.
News, they know all that. But principle beats pragmatism for some. If you’re hardwired to believe government = evil, no amount of numbers or stats will matter.
It’s like you’re playing poker with them and they think diamonds are just wrong, so they argue their two pair beats your flush.
As I pointed out, we live in a very heterogenous society. We count 26 week infants as “live births” and then try to save them. Most of the other countries on the list would define these infants as “stillborn”. This both raises our “infant mortality” rate and lowers our average lifespan.
If we were canada, we would simply say, sorry, no NICU beds available….looks like this kid is stillborn.
As Dennis points out, I don’t consider spending $300 for a purse a problem. It is a problem when she wants me to then pick up the tab for her UTI (which, by the way, will likely be covered by the HMO, which is paid 100% by her employer!, unless she violated some rule by going to the ED instead of a PMD or something like that).
Oh and Newsy, I hope no one catches on that Michelle is buying black market bags that violate US and international copyright laws.
Are you saying Michelle Obama is carrying a cheap imitation knock-off of a $6,000 handbag, Newsie? Isn’t that illegal, or at the least, morally unbecoming of a First Lady?
Surprised you’d make that implication.
“Dennis”, I’m saying that if you told me I was standing on planet earth I’d have to fact check it.
You are a pathological liar.
It’s a shame if your wife hasn’t figured that out yet.
This discussion has not even touched on the underinsured, which cnnmoney.com estimates at 25 million. Plus every Medicare eligible senior knows that he needs medical supplementary, dental, vision and LTC policies to fill in the Medicare gaps. How can any intelligent American not understand that the American health system is a disgrace.
“18,000 deaths blamed on lack of insurance.” “More than 18,000 adults in the USA die each year because they are uninsured and can’t get proper health care, researchers report in a landmark study released Tuesday.”
The 18,000 deaths from lack of proper health care in America was from and Institute of Medicine (IOM) report, released on May 21st, 2002. Those numbers have likely gone up since then.
Your grade school playground response tells me you think First Lady Michelle Obama buys imitation designer handbags, Newsie, and that you don’t want to admit you just made the implication that’s she’s cheap and a fake.
Because you know it makes you look like the same sexist you just accused usualsuspect of for asking S. Quaker if she’s ever spent $300 on a purse.
“How can any intelligent American not understand that the American health system is a disgrace.”
Right wing followers are a combination of ‘believers’ and the ignorant led by smart con artists who enrich themselves at the expense of those they are conning.
Some right wingers can learn but aren’t paying enough attention (and when they do pay attention they too often listen to the right wing con artists that are taking advantage of them).
Some right wingers are no different than jihadi fanatics and believe whatever authority figure yells the loudest.
But the bulk of the right wing leadership has completely betrayed their followers and get paid very well to tell outright lies.
So here is right winger “Dennis” telling one lie after another.
Every time he gets caught lying he just tells another lie.
Does your wife really not understand this about you “Dennis”?
That you are completely without integrity or any sense of ethics?
“Parthenon”: “News, they know all that.”
{{Sigh}} I know.
But on the off chance that someone new wanders by and reads the thread I feel compelled to repeat myself.
And there’s always the chance that some of these right wingers will grow a conscience.
I’m split between my conservative streak that thinks there is no hope for any of them and a carefully cultivated ‘hopefulness’* that thinks about half of them are redeemable and some of them are genuinely good people and if they would only look at the evidence and think through what they are talking about they would change their mind.
* Is ‘hopefulness’ a ‘liberal’ trait? Sometimes it seems so.
Right wingers sold out to anti-competitive corporate-medical-insurance monopolies.
“25 Million Americans Are ‘Underinsured’: Middle- and upper-income families find it harder to get needed medical care, report says.”
>How many americans have to go to canada for health care vs canadians coming here?
Many more Americans go to Canada to buy prescription drugs, about two orders of magnitude more.
If we were canada, we would simply say, sorry, no NICU beds available….looks like this kid is stillborn.
You truly are a fucking idiot who doesn’t know what the fuck he’s talking about.
‘And here is the problem with liberals: Even with the raw facts staring them right in the face, they simply cannot accept a piece of information that goes against their beliefs.’
Riiiight…like you TELLING me that I got ‘hooked up’ by my Dad as though you were fucking there as a witness?
Give me a fucking break.
‘News Refernce,the Sarah Palin DOJ post had absolutely nothing to do with the conversation, and remarking about the likelihood that a women might shell out $300 for a purse is hardly sexist.
Michelle Obama just shelled out $6,000 for an Italian designer purse.’
What does any of that have to do with your crumbling health care system?
‘If we were canada, we would simply say, sorry, no NICU beds available….looks like this kid is stillborn.’
Utter nonsense.
‘Hey, you have a problem with the Department of Justice numbers you go right ahead and bring it up with them. Don’t shoot the messenger.’
You’re the one arguing against StatsCan figures.
‘How can any intelligent American not understand that the American health system is a disgrace.’
Keyword NCS; intelligent.
usualsuspect:
You’ve got to be kidding. You cite ONE example of an isolated case and pretend that it’s a systemic problem?
http://cp24.com/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090626/090626_BABY_PASSPORTS/20090626/?hub=CP24Home
Read your own articles, you fool.
By the way, US has more stillborns than Canada, how do you explain that?
My father had a triple heart by pass at … wait for it …. 72 YEARS OLD. My friend’s wife was diagnosed with breast cancer and the NEXT DAY she was operated on. According to all the douche bags on fear radio this day, my father should have been denied this procedure because of his age and my friend’s wife should be dead. Quit the lying, take off your ideological blind folds and learn the facts.
“We have more drug abusers, more immigrants, more obesity and a more sedentary lifestyle…all of which also help to explain the decrease in lifespan.”
WOW, sounds like a great place you got there. The insurance companies must love it.
“of course smtp, someone else has to pay for your health care.”
Hey Usual Asshole, it’s not somebody else that’s paying, we all pay and use it when required. It’s quite the concept I know. Tough for the greedy little bastards to get their heads around it.
The US has a worse infant mortality rate than Canada.
Right wingers claim the opposite at first, claiming that America’s private-corporate system has better care than Canada’s public-government system.
When confronted with the facts the “usual ‘Republican’ suspect[s]” decide that only white infants count and that after they throw out the black infants that America’s infant mortality rate is better.
Okay you sick bastards, how much better?
Seriously, if you only count white American infants, is it still worse off than Canada’s low infant mortality rate?
Let’s hear the numbers on your racist accounting of infant mortality rate.
Or would the “usual ‘Republican’ suspect[s]” consider counting 3/5ths of black American babies in their numbers games?
US has … more immigrants
Get your facts straight, Canada has more immigrants.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/imm_new_cit_percap-immigration-new-citizenships-per-capita
(Oops, I forgot to add: usualsuspect doesn’t know what the fuck he’s talking about, and is prone to pull “facts” straight out of his ass!)
simply pointed out that we try to save infants that other medical systems would consider a loss, and our infant “mortality” stats suffer for that.
Usualsuspect, anyone with a modicum of logical thought would understand that US would have a lower stillborn rate if this were the true. But they have a higher stillborn rate, and higher infant mortality. No matter how you rearrange your “facts” Canada comes out ahead.
Or are you going to argue that the immigrants and coloreds are to blame?
Nice stat passerby….but I didn’t qualify it as LEGAL immigrants. In fact, the US number of illegal immigrants, by definition the poorest and least healthy bolsters my argument numbnuts.
Now that you have beclowned yourself with the one fact you were willing to deal with. Care to take on the others? Obesity, drug use, murder rate, NICU beds, having the rich pay for your healthcare, your ridiculous use anecdotal “evidence”, how long it took your dad who is a doctor to see a cardiologist/cardiac surgeon and finally to have his bypass?
No?
I thought not.
Can you read. I never said my father is an MD. That was another guy. Good god, you’re frothing at your ideological mouth.
Brief Facts on US Healthcare:
“18,000 deaths blamed on lack of insurance [a year].” “More than 18,000 adults in the USA die each year because they are uninsured and can’t get proper health care, researchers report in a landmark study released Tuesday.”
The 18,000 deaths from lack of proper health care in America was from and Institute of Medicine (IOM) report, released on May 21st, 2002. Those numbers have likely gone up since then as the ranks of the uninsured have grown.
The US has a worse infant mortality rate than 43 other countries and the entire European Union combined according to the the CIA World Factbook.
The US has a worse life expectancy rate than 49 other countries.
Overall, the US health system ranks behind 36 other countries according to the World Health Organization.
“The U. S. health system spends a higher portion of its gross domestic product than any other country but ranks 37 out of 191 countries according to its performance, the report finds. The United Kingdom, which spends just six percent of gross domestic product (GDP) on health services, ranks 18th.”
Despite having lousy rankings the US spends more per capita and more as a percentage of GDP than any other nation on earth because the private corporate-medical-industry loots billions out of the American health system.
“25 Million Americans Are ‘Underinsured’: Middle- and upper-income families find it harder to get needed medical care, report says.” Which, when combined with the estimated 50 million uninsured Americans adds up to 75 million Americans that are either uninsured or “under-insured”.
That means 25% of Americans are either uninsured or under-insured.
How is this possible?
Right wingers sold out to anti-competitive corporate-medical-insurance monopolies.
Right wingers are protecting corporate-medical-monopolies even to absurd lenghts, “94% of the health care insurance market is now under monopoly or near-monopoly conditions”.
Monopolies that use their corporate power to arbitrarily rescind (take away) your health care if a corporate bureacrat decides you’ve become an expense.
I’d like to see the cite on immigration, legal and otherwise. Please note at least some of the immigrants in Canada end up in the US because it is easier to legally enter Canada and then skip to the US.
“Health-Care Market Characterized By Consolidation, Not Competition.”
The corporate-medical-industry is a monopolistic racket.
“Not one of you makes more than 250K … .”
WOW, you really do like assumptions upon which to construct your shaky edifice of lies and deceit. You have no credibility.
“Please note at least some of the immigrants in Canada end up in the US because it is easier to legally enter Canada and then skip to the US.”
And then hasten back quickly because we have health care and jobs.
All you have to do is tell me I am wrong Bacon. How much more than 250K a year do you make?
Or maybe my credibility is just fine?
“Medical bills tied to [more than] 60 percent of bankruptcies: Most families had health insurance, but still overwhelmed by health debt.” … “More than 75 percent of these bankrupt families had health insurance but still were overwhelmed by their medical debts….”
More bullshit statistics. I will bet that 90% of all bankruptcies have high credit card bills…see, it is really the credit cards causing bankruptcies. If you have a health problem, you often lose your income, it is a dumbass comparison and means nothing.
But here is a nice study showing Europes 20% lower 5-year survival rate for solid cancers
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/561737
But wait, how is that possible? They all have total care!
Got any answers lefties?
(if this post ever gets out of moderation that is)
‘Talk is cheap when you are spending someone elses money.’
How the Hell do you reason that; when all Canadians are paying into the system, when you make use of it, you’re utilizing the services you have paid into.
How does that correlate into spending someone else’s money?
I just want to say, this debate has been EXTREMELY entertaining. The answer is obvious: U.S. rocks and show should our health care. Why the fuck should I have to pay some rich white fuck for something that should be mine anyway. If Canada can do it, then so can we.
As far as republicoons are concerned, People like reagan, bush 1 and 2, mccain, indian dude from louisiana, and palin, only prove how fucking retarded republicans are. THOSE PEOPLE ARE YOUR REPRESENTATIVES. They are suppose to be the top dogs, the ‘smarties’. Now if those Dumbfucks are the leaders, what the hell does that say about the followers? Simply put, you wingnuts are the reason this country is going straight to hell.
Newsie said it best: ‘Right wing followers are a combination of ‘believers’ and the ignorant led by smart con artists who enrich themselves at the expense of those they are conning.’
“And yes Strowbridge, I did say that. You know why? Because blacks are 7 times more likely to be murderers than whites. That ain’t racist, that is a fact based on DOJ statshttp://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/tables/oracetab.htm”
No. They are seven times more likely to be convicted of murder than whites. And with people like you on the jury pool, I’m not surprised.
“If Canada can do it, then so can we.”
That’s what I’ve been saying.
The only way you can honestly say Universal Health Care won’t work in the United States is if you think Americans are not as competent and Canadians.