’)
Of course he was beyond weird, and I will always believe there was something to the accusations, but he was also clearly the greatest artist of his generation. I was a huge fan of him in the ’80s, at the Thriller period particularly.
Michael Jackson, the show-stopping singer whose best-selling albums — including ‘Off the Wall,’ ‘Thriller’ and ‘Bad’ — and electrifying stage presence made him one of the most popular artists of all time, died Thursday, CNN has confirmed.
He was 50.
He collapsed at his residence in the Holmby Hills section of Los Angeles, California, about noon Pacific time, suffering cardiac arrest, according to brother Randy Jackson. He died at UCLA Medical Center.”
For me the greatest Michael Jackson music will always be the “Off the Wall” records. That album is underrated because it wasn’t as phenomenally successful as “Thriller.” But as much as I liked some of the tracks on Thriller, they don’t affect me the way the late 70s songs do.
As I stated in the Breaking News thread, the real King of Pop died on May 14, 1998.
Jackson may have been great, but the Chairman was beyond ordinary description. Also, like his onetime father-in-law (another disputed “king”), Jackson squandered his considerable talents on mediocre material and questionable behavior.
May they all rest in peace.
Here is a music video “Tribute to the King Of Pop” :
http://veejay.tv/jon/watch/tribute-to-the-king-of-pop
world great artist sleep forever. may be god wanna to see his dance. but world lost rear artist.nobody can take his place.his place become empty forever.
My first album was Jackson Five Third album. Although I thought his best years were with his brothers, you cannot argue that he was probably the biggest name and most iconic figure in pop music since Elvis or Frank Sinatra.
May the king rest in peace… atleast now.
Alav Hashalom, he was my one and only ceiling-poster.
I’ll remember Michael the same way baby boomers remember the skinny Elvis.
@ Randy Brown,
I can’t believe that you would say that Sinatra was “the King of pop” moreso than Jackson. First and foremost Sinatra didn’t sing “pop music”. Sinatra didn’t sing “Pop” music. He sang music that was popular at the time. (As a matter of fact there is a difference between popular music and pop music if you want to get specific) His genre could be more easily defined as Big Band, or Vocal Jazz…and at that, Bing Crosby and Dean Martin were better, Sammy Davis Junior owned all of them in my book. Simply because while Louis Armstrong had a great following, and was a great musician who played an instrument, Sammy Davis JR. had crossover appeal…not unlike Michael Jackson.
Michael was such a big crossover hit, that people didn’t realize that it was crossover…if you know what I mean. He sullied his legacy with the kid stuff. I think he was beyond weird from about 85 forward. But, I also think besides questionable judgment and behavior that he may have been taken advantage of. I mean, what parent in their right mind would allow their kid to sleep over ALONE at the mansion of a person who has been accused of sexually abusing kids. Anyway, I would have liked to have seen if he could have come out with more music to revive his career.
All the 24hour news outlets are showing footage of Micheal Jackson’s corpse being driven to the LA Corner’s Office. First, via helicopter and then by van.
And one of the talking heads rambled on about how poignant it was…”despite what you may feel about the man, we must all know that one day we will all be in this situation.”
What?
You mean that when I finally shuffle off this mortal coil, all the 24 hour news stations will take time out of their busy schedules away from kinda sorta covering VERY IMPORTANT THINGS to spend oodles of time and even bigger oodles of money following my dead lifeless and did I mention dead body around to find out how I died???
Uh…no, DO NOT WANT!
Okay, here’s the thing. Michael Jackson was the most famous person in the world. There should be no argument on that. Not Elvis, not the Beatles. In fact, the only one that came close was our current president. And that’s because he’s President…do you think anyone would know who Barack Obama was right now if he had not won the presidency? Nope, nein nada.
This guy was so famous that he could do a show in, say, Burundi (where they have no copper wiring), and the locals would show up by the hundreds of thousands. He was so famous at one point that he could have had a planet named after him. He was so famous that parents would leave their children with him! And he was so famous that when he was acquitted of child molestation charges, the hundreds perhaps thousands of fans that gathered outside of the courthouse wept like Apostles and released doves into the air. Actual fucking doves.
He was that famous because he had the right talent, the right image and the right sound at the exact right time. And he was marketed like a motherfucker worldwide and shot off bigger than anyone could have ever imagined. His album Thriller sold over 45 million copies…no one has ever come close to that. He single handedly flippin’ changed how music and video was marketed for better or worse, and that, I really believe, was the one thing that quite frankly drove an already kinda odd guy completely fucking batshit loony-tunes insane.
But, that’s not want I am on about. Ya’ll probably already KNOW that story already by heart.
The circus!! That’s going to be a great and terrible thing.
See, when a celeb type person dies, the media response to the death runs the gamut from barely there to Oh My that person is dead now to OMGWTFBBQ SWARM SWARM WE NEED GERALDO ON SIGHT TO INTERVIEW THE REMAINS!!!
Need an example? Farrah Fawcett died today. She was 62. Now, I didn’t know Farrah; I kinda liked her on Charlies Angels and I really liked her in Saturn 3 and Burning Bed and I REALLY liked her in that one nipple poster, but her death actually made me tear up a bit. My mom in law was the same age when she died, and also had cancer. It touched me. And the media reaction was muted; respectful. She had been sick for awhile and had been brave as hell about it.
Then…MJ has a heart attack and the Three Headed Hound from Hell named MSNBCCNNFOX was unleashed.
That hound lives for this sort of thing. It waits in it’s kennel for something big to happen. NO, not something overseas…unless, of course, we can embed a nice high priced whore. It’s better that it be local and messy and grotesque. It lives for the bread and the circuses and the innocents being fed to the lions. It needs to get the close-up of the grieving fans and the friends who’s meal ticket is now gone to the family who never really seemed to know what the fuck was up with him to the experts (oh god the experts!) who will spew worthless uninformed bullshit about nothing in particular.
And MJ? In the end, he had become a joke. A freak of nature. A manchild thing that looked like a Picasso painting. A man who, let’s face it, had not had anything really interesting to say artistically since 1984 but still managed to sell an assload of tickets for a 50 show run at the O2 in London even though it was really a 50/50 chance that he would even be able to go through with it.
I mean…Jeebus..you had cameras following his corpse!! HIS CORPSE!!
In times like this, I used to say that we were so ready for an Alien invasion, it wasn’t funny.
Now, I think the Aliens are on their way out of here and have left a time bomb set to go off in 2012 so that we don’t infect the universe.
I thought we’d get further than 2 comments before somebody went awol from the topic, and 5 comments before somebody started to mention the bad stuff that happened in his life. Seriously, whilst I’m happy to have a “who’s the best ever” type thread and a dirt-digging session, I’d wait until his funeral first. His biopic will mention all the trouble in his life, but after all of this is forgotten, his music will endure. This is a time to be think of the good. Sheeesh.
I too love “Off the Wall”. The way his voice cracks in “She’s out of my life” is the perfect way to end that song. I also loved his “Can you feel it” with the Jacksons (the period when he was emerging as the big dog of the family). I can’t say that “You are not alone” doesn’t pull on my heartstrings too. Yes his greatest music was in the 80’s, but he could still do the occasional great track, and what a career.
“I’ll be there”, he did that at 12 years old. Nuff said.
I couldn’t possibly care less about the hierarchy of pop icons. What a ridiculously irrelevant concept. Art is experienced by individuals individually, and the nature of such an experience is beholden to no one else’s notions of quality or significance — though many people are hoodwinked into thinking that “popular opinion”, as shepherded by salespeople and self-appointed critical experts, is a suitable guide for (or against) their own tastes.
Any attempt to be cool is automatically destined for failure.
For what it’s worth (and that, for the record, is simultaneously nothing and everything), I was a Michael Jackson fan for the duration of one album, “Thriller”, when I was 10 years old and attempting to be cool by getting the album that every radio station was playing and every kid at school had. I actually did enjoy the music on its own merits, though I remember being too scared of Vincent Price to listen to the title track when I was alone. It was music that was very, very accessible to a 10-year-old boy. Even then, though, I preferred Weird Al’s parodies of it. Time, predictably, cast it in a cornier and cornier light. (The doggone girl? Really?) By the time “Bad” came out, I had already moved on. And nothing that came after gave me any reason to move back.
R.I.P King of Pop Michael Jackson
May he rest in peace.
We all are going to miss him.
He’ll live in our hearts forever.
it is so sad that the king of pop is already dead… we are going to miss him but his music will be remembered forever…
I will always remember the Jackson Five. “I Want You Back” gave me many happy moments in Viet Nam, from the opening piano to the shouting and carrying on at the end.
When I bought their first album after I got home, I was totally blown away by their (meaning Michael’s) rendition of Smokey Robinson’s classic, “Who’s Loving You?” . I will five different versions of it on my radio show today at 8 AM EST …
I will also be playing “I’ll be there”, “Rockin’ Robin” and “Never can say goodbye”.
Tune into XPowerRadio.com if you like .
Dkelsmith, Jackson designated himself “King of Pop,” and the star-struck media bought it.
Sinatra DID sing “music that was popular at the time.” So did Jackson. People and critics appreciate albums such as “The Voice…,” “In the Wee Small Hours” and “Only the Lonely” more than a half-century after they were made. Can you say the same for “Bad” and “Dangerous”?
Also, Sinatra never had to invent controversy in order to gin up sales. Jackson did it all the damn time, starting with “Bad.” (Anyone remember “They Don’t Care About Us”?) Finally, Sinatra never floated a giant statue of himself down the River Thames.
For all the negatives that will haunt Michael Jackson’s legacy, there are a host of positives that showcase his phenomenal talents as well. People forget that before Off the Wall, NO Black artists were played regularly on so called White radio. Before Thriller, MTV NEVER played Black artists. MJ was the first truly global crossover star, his popularity transcended racial divisions, geographic boundaries and musical genres. For people to judge his behavior based on the strange mythology surrounding him seems pretty clinically cold; I defy you to find anyone else on Earth to draw comparisons with; a child star from the age of 5, breadwinner for his family at age 7 who was constantly pressured mentally and physically by a domineering and abusive father, a superstar by age 10, never out of the glare of the spotlight all of his life, never having had a chance to experience anything resembling a normal life, it’s not surprising that he would become an increasingly isolated and bizarre figure of the ravages of fame. I make no excuses for his many failings, but we’re all of us just human at the end of the day, even a sad man child who never found the inner strength to accept himself as he was. This guy’s music was the soundtrack for my entire life and countless others as well. There will never be another like him.
“Sinatra never had to invent controversy in order to gin up sales.”
Yeah – it’s not like he was a White House hanger on, got started via mob money or actual charged with the (then) crime of adultery or was renowned for screwing other guys’ wives!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/t/916884/
Oh wait. He did all of that and more.
… and it did not diminish his talent OR make him king of a music genre that didn’t even freekin exist when he was in his heyday.
“a sad man child who never found the inner strength to accept himself as he was.”
This is a very good description of how I view Michael Jackson the person. Looking at all of the photo montages this morning, I have been struck a how handsome he was before he began his appearance altering surgeries. It is a true tragedy that he was not able to see his own physical beauty and be content with it.
‘I have been struck a how handsome he was before he began his appearance altering surgeries.’
Growing up in the late ’60’s and early ’70’s, for my brothers and I the Jackson 5 were without a doubt our heroes; international superstars, the funkiest dudes alive, had their own cartoon on ABC, wore the baddest threads, and of course, Michael was seriously the most beautiful kid alive. I remember EVERY girl in my grade 8 class losing their minds when Off the Wall was released, and positively SCREAMING about how freaking gorgeous he looked on the album cover. The very first video I ever saw was for Don’t Stop ’til You Get Enough, which was the last time he still looked like that insanely beautiful kid that made girls swoon the world over; not to mention how hard that tune still rocks. A true one of a kind musical genius. I too am saddened by what he became, in the same way I feel for Elvis, but NOTHING can diminish what these men did for music or the incredible imprint they left on the world. RIP.
“Sinatra never had to invent controversy in order to gin up sales.”
“I got chunks o’ guys like you in my stool!”
I felt about this the same way I felt in August,1977: meh, not a big fan.
Sinatra, Elvis, Michael Jackson were each unique and will be missed. Personally, I’ll take Sinatra and Judy Garland.
OT, I have found the greatest web site of all time.
http://knowyourmeme.com/
I want to read something brilliant about Michael Jackson the social force. In de facto segregated Bakersfield, CA, my young white nephews demanded Urkel dolls and Michael Jackson LPs, to the bafflement of their grandparents. Yet Urkel was a funny character and Jackson was entertainment, period.
I don’t know whether he was merely the right star at the right time, but surely his success helped unify his rainbow coalition of fans and further distance us Americans from our racially divided past. And how many of his fans grew up and voted for Obama?
Yes, yes, we don’t have a just society yet, but Jackson, unintentionally or not (though he later became aware of his position of influence), represented a giant step forward. Maybe we have no instrument to measure how big.
I used to feel sorry for his sons that they would grow up with MJ for a father.
Now, I feel mre sorry for them that they’ll grow up _without_ a father. That’s going to be even worse.
I Think its also kind of sad that MJ’s death has overshadowed another great icon, Farah Fawcett…
Fawcett Now With the Angels
Jrfunk,
Pre Jackson 5 there was Motown all over the “white” airwaves.
funk
I’m having keyboard trauma, extra funk
Pre Jackson 5 there was Motown all over the “white” airwaves.
And Aretha. And Stax/Volt (Otis Redding, Sam & Dave, Booker T. & the MGs et.al). Sly & the Family Stone. Ray Charles. Chuck Berry. Little Richard. Fats Domino. Dionne Warwick (well, kinda-sorta). The Drifters. The Coasters. The Isley Brothers (in and out of Motown). Jackie Wilson.
JAMES BROWN, without whom Michael Jackson would have been stationary onstage.
Rock & roll and contemporary pop would hardly exist if it weren’t for all those R&B and soul acts that gave the music its kick, thus earning them exposure on Top 40 “white” radio.
And if Jackson hadn’t busted MTV’s color line, someone else would’ve…most likely Prince and “Purple Rain.”
I’m having keyboard trauma, extra funk
A little extra funk never hurt nobody. Especially if it’s the good stuff (Parliament-Funkadelic, Ohio Players, Bar-Kays, Kool & the Gang, etc.).
Jrfunkenstein, I know a comparison person like the biog you mentioned. Mozart.
btw Big Frank married Mia Farrow when she was ‘barely legal’. (This always made me smile when she railed against Woody Allen).
Meanwhile, buried in the hype was the death of Sky Saxon, lead singer and bassist of the 1960s rock group The Seeds. They had a good-sized hit with “(You’re) Pushin’ Too Hard”, but their “live” album, The Seeds in Concert, Raw and Alive – Merlin’s Music Box, is absolutely fucking AWESOME. (And is still available on CD.)
As usual, John McWhorter explains it all.
Great find, Frank.
‘Pre Jackson 5 there was Motown all over the “white” airwaves.’
Sure there was; and Iraq is a free and functioning democracy.
‘Jrfunkenstein, I know a comparison person like the biog you mentioned. Mozart.’
Did Mozart live in an age of TV and instant news?
I’d love to see some of his Sullivan clips.
‘‘Pre Jackson 5 there was Motown all over the “white” airwaves.’’
The fact is, that White stations routinely played White artists covering Black records, because their audiences were not readily accepting of the ‘Black’ sound, which was the whole purpose behind Berry Gordy’s Motown; to give Black artists their own production and distribution channels to get their music into mainstream America. Eventually it worked, but it was hardly immediately embraced by White radio stations across the country.
Junior,
Your snotty little retort regarding black artists on white airwaves is probably the single most stupid thing I have ever seen here in OllieLand. It is on par with denying the moonlanding. MJ wasn’t even close to most iconic black entertainer let alone the paragon you depict. You did get it right when you stated there will never be another one like him though. Even in his Thriller days he was a seemingly castrato freak show.
Junior,
Your snotty little retort regarding black artists on white airwaves is probably the single most stupid thing I have ever seen here in OllieLand. It is on par with denying the moonlanding. MJ wasn’t even close to most iconic black entertainer let alone the paragon you depict. You did get it right when you stated there will never be another one like him though. Even in his Thriller days he was a seemingly castrato freak show.
I don’t know why that double posted.
I might charitibly suggest Junior, that perhaps you didn’t actually listen to all the radio stations in the 60’s and have no idea what they were playing.
There is a big difference between whites covering black artists which was indeed common place and actual black artists themselves. I grew up in a state that was overwhelmingly white and we had plenty of exposure to black artists before you were even born.
Not sure that’s true, jrfunk. I don’t think the Temptations songs I was listening to on the radio were covers. Neither were Diana Ross and the Supremes, or Marvin Gaye or Stevie Wonder, or Smokey Robinson. I don’t think anybody could cover those singers to be honest, not any White artists I’ve heard of anyway. If they did and that’s what I was hearing over the radio, why the hell aren’t they famous now too? And all those singers came before the Jackson 5, and there were many more to add to that list.
I really have no idea wtf you’re talking about.
Amused Observer: Your snotty little retort regarding black artists on white airwaves is probably the single most stupid thing I have ever seen here in OllieLand. It is on par with denying the moonlanding. MJ wasn’t even close to most iconic black entertainer let alone the paragon you depict.’
Speaking of snotty, you’re outraged response says a fuck of a lot about your general lack of decorum.
I never called him a paragon; I said he was a groundbreaker.
I said was the guy pushed open the doors for cross over appeal of Black artists on White radio. I said Black artists were not REGULARLY played on White radio, not that the weren’t EVER played.
If you think he was not an iconic figure in pop music, fine.
You’re simply wrong is all.
Dennis: ‘I really have no idea wtf you’re talking about.’
In the 1970’s here in Toronto, there were NO predominately Black radio stations in the city; we had to tune into WBLK in Buffalo to hear Black music as the primary genre, not the once in awhile spin, because the stations here played Rock exclusively, and I very much doubt the situation in the US was much different, hence the appearance of stations like WBLK.
White artists covering Black music began as far back as the 1950’s; Bill Hailey and the Comets followed up ‘Rock around the Clock’ with a cover of Big Joe Turner’s ‘Shake, Rattle and Roll,’ which got NO airplay at that time on White radio UNTIL Hailey covered it.
I never claimed MJ was the first Black artist played on White radio, I said Off the Wall was the first Black album played on regular rotation on White radio, because its enormous popularity made its tracks heavily requested by White and Black listeners alike.
‘I might charitibly suggest Junior, that perhaps you didn’t actually listen to all the radio stations in the 60’s and have no idea what they were playing;’
Unlike YOU I suppose?
I listened to the ones that were around me. AM for the most part. We didn’t get FM stations with rock till the start of the 70’s. They didn’t play anybody’s albums till FM started to bloom around those parts. Real stoned DJ’s would put on album sides and only stumble back on the air every 20 to 40 minutes.
MJ wasn’t leading the crowd he was in the middle of the crowd. The Jackson 5 had some good tunes but they were pretty bubblegum all things considered. People liked the way the litle kid could jam, it was a novelty but he wasn’t taken really seriously. Thriller, Billie Jean, etc. had real pop following but pop music wasn’t considered near as “real” as rock. And watching Mike prance about you had to admire his moves but the crotch grabbing bad ass was just hilarious. Even then it looked like his sister could whip him.
The stuff I like best were the Jackson 5 tunes. MJ was a lot more impressive as a little kid playing with the big boys then he was as an adult playing with the little boys. Musically speaking of course.
‘The stuff I like best were the Jackson 5 tunes. MJ was a lot more impressive as a little kid playing with the big boys then he was as an adult playing with the little boys. Musically speaking of course.’
Wrong on many counts, but that’s cool. The J5 didn’t compose or arrange any of their tunes, MJ did. You may not consider dance music as ‘real’ as rock, but its impact on music is undeniable; everyone from Madonna to Eminem owe their careers to what became one of the most popular genres of music in the world. One of the first performers to make it so was Michael Jackson, through his collaboration with Quincy Jones, and his popularization of music videos. You might not consider that as influential as the Beatles, but you’d be hard pressed to deny it as a fact.
‘I grew up in a state that was overwhelmingly white and we had plenty of exposure to black artists before you were even born.’
How do you know when I was born?
If you have that kind of clairvoyance, who’s gonna win the Superbowl?
jrfunk- Sorry, wasn’t trying to argue with you. Music is music and everyone has different tastes. I just thought you were saying that black singers weren’t getting any airtime before the Jackson 5 hit the scene, and I wasn’t sure where you were coming from on that. As to the 70s and getting air time, not sure what experience you had but black artists were pretty popular where I was at least.
Off the Wall was the first Black album played on regular rotation on White radio…
Ever heard of “What’s Going On” and “Let’s Get It On” by Marvin Gaye? “Talking Book,” “Innervisions,” and “Fulfillingness’ First Finale” by Stevie Wonder (all of them Grammy winners for Album of the Year)? “Back Stabbers” by the O’Jays? “Super Fly” by Curtis Mayfield? “Imagination” by Gladys Knight & the Pips?
All of these LPs’ iconic statuses are due in part to heavy rotation on so-called “white” radio.
Also, I don’t know what stations in Canada played or didn’t play, but in AMERICA black music was all over Top 40 radio.
The J5 didn’t compose or arrange any of their tunes, MJ did.
Are. You. Fucking. KIDDING ME??!!
MJ did not compose or arrange ONE NOTE WHATSOEVER of the J5’s hits. The early Motown singles were written by a consortium called “The Corporation” that included Berry Gordy himself and Freddie Perren; other teams created later singles. The legendary Holland-Dozier-Holland did at least one solo MJ track.
Your comment just destroyed all your credibility!
‘MJ did not compose or arrange ONE NOTE WHATSOEVER of the J5’s hits’
That’s right; MICHAEL JACKSON COMPOSED OR CO-WROTE ALL OF THE SONGS ON OFF THE WALL AND THRILLER AND THE REST OF HIS SOLO ALBUMS.
You’re taking everything out of context. I didn’t mean to suggest that MJ composed any of the J5 tunes, but that he DID compose the tunes on his solo albums.
Christ people, try understanding my posts before criticizing them.
‘Ever heard of “What’s Going On” and “Let’s Get It On” by Marvin Gaye? “Talking Book,” “Innervisions,” and “Fulfillingness’ First Finale” by Stevie Wonder (all of them Grammy winners for Album of the Year)? “Back Stabbers” by the O’Jays? “Super Fly” by Curtis Mayfield? “Imagination” by Gladys Knight & the Pips?’
Once again, my point was that Black artists were not REGULARLY played on White stations in the ’60’s to late ’70’s; REGULARLY. Sure I’ve heard of Stevie, Marvin, the O’Jays, Curtis and GK and the Pips; my point is that White radio didn’t seem to, at least not to the extent that they played the Stones, KISS, the Beatles, Alice Cooper, Bowie and a host of other White artists, and the idea that all of these performers were given EQUAL airtime is nonsense.
And while we’re at it, you forgot the Delfonics, the Stylistics, Earth, Wind and Fire, George Clinton and PFunk, the Commodores, Hot Chocolate, Minnie Riperton, Sly and the Family Stone and many more that I guarantee today’s Britney Spears generation have never fucking heard of, but even if they can’t name a single tune, I bet they’ve heard of the Stones, the Beatles, the Doors, KISS and more.
Why do you suppose that might be?
‘jrfunk- Sorry, wasn’t trying to argue with you’
No problem; likewise.
‘Your comment just destroyed all your credibility!’
Considering how you misinterpreted what I actually said, you’re one to talk.
MICHAEL JACKSON COMPOSED OR CO-WROTE ALL OF THE SONGS ON OFF THE WALL AND THRILLER AND THE REST OF HIS SOLO ALBUMS.
Wrong again, honey! I got “Thriller” in front of me…of its nine songs, MJ wrote four. FOUR.
Stop blowing it out your ass, ’cause when it comes to arguing with me about American black music, YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR LEAGUE.
‘Stop blowing it out your ass, ’cause when it comes to arguing with me about American black music, YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR LEAGUE.’
Are. You. Fucking. KIDDING ME??!!
For what it’s worth Randy, I’m willing to admit that my recollections regarding the actual number of songs on his solo albums that MJ penned are faulty, but I haven’t adopted the same sense of self righteous indignation nor insulting tone that you find so comforting; not surprisingly you’ve yet to admit that you misinterpreted a good deal of what I’d posted, but if you want to continue to act as though you’re the only one here who knows jack about popular music and Black culture, be my guest.
After all, I’m only a Jamaican of mixed Black, White and East Indian heritage who grew up in one of the most racially diverse cities in the world, so what the Hell would I know about that shit?
I’m not too proud to admit when I’m wrong; what about you?
Well, dammit, I may not be perfect. But so far, I’m batting 1.000 with the facts I’ve given here, while you’re edging into 1988 Orioles territory.
Jr, I don’t know where you live, but I was listening to “black radio” from Oakland in 1966, and R & B from Nashville in 1967.
Of course, where I live , Alan Freed was playing black versions of everything in the mid 50’s , as would Bruce Morrow, Alan Fredericks, “Jocko” Henderson, Murray the K, and every radio station in NYC Metro, except for the “standards” stations.
The only “crossover” that MJ accomplished was to get regular play on MTV.
Not a big deal.
He was a great performer, but, he had no little or no influence on rock ‘n’ roll, or even r & b or soul.
Aside from his choreography and “spectacular” video productions, where is his influence?
As a DJ myself , I hear musical influences everywhere, from even the least popular bands . Michael Jackson, not so much .
‘Well, dammit, I may not be perfect. But so far, I’m batting 1.000 with the facts I’ve given here, while you’re edging into 1988 Orioles territory.’
Really?
So you’re batting a thousand but aren’t perfect?
That’s generous and humble of you.
‘The only “crossover” that MJ accomplished was to get regular play on MTV.
Not a big deal.’
Even if that were his only accomplishment, which I don’t agree with, I’d say that was a pretty big deal, considering they weren’t giving that kind of exposure to any other Black artist before him.
‘He was a great performer, but, he had no little or no influence on rock ‘n’ roll, or even r & b or soul.
Aside from his choreography and “spectacular” video productions, where is his influence?’
You’re entitled to your opinion, but as I mentioned before, SCORES of artists that came afterward, people you may not consider talented or influential to the history of music, owe their careers to the innovations he and Q ushered in; as a DJ, I’m surprised you can’t recognize that, even if you don’t find the genre as important as R+B, Soul or Funk, all of which these two men blended into something new, exciting and popular to an enormous degree.
But whatever; hundreds of millions of albums sold and the accolades of giants in the industry mean nothing I suppose.
SCORES of artists that came afterward … owe their careers to the innovations he and Q ushered in
“Scores”? excuse me ?
And what (musical) innovations were those?
Perhaps you misunderstood… Hardly anyone influences “scores” (’scores’ meaning multiples of twenty, not simply “a whole lot”) of artists that came afterward, except in an escalating fashion where many artists borrow the same idea — like the “honking sax” (Louis Jordan’s band) or reverberating guitar (Jimi Hendrix).
I came to the conclusion that Michael Jackson influenced very few people, when I began to think about who imitated him, and what musical “licks” were picked up by others.
Care to name a few of those “scores” — minus the dancers and video artists?. By the way, lest you think this is racial or generational, Bruce Springsteen is in exactly the same boat as Michael Jackson.
On the other hand, Fats Domino brought Professor Longhair’s “stride” piano to rock ‘n’ roll, and neither Longhair nor Domino ever had a number 1 record.
No one ever said I ever found any genre unimportant. On my show, I play any good music I find — from 1935 to the Present: Billie Holiday to Beyoncé; Beethoven to Berry.
Quincy Jones may have done for Michael Jackson what George Martin did for the Beatles, i.e., made their music more mature and sophisticated, as well as eclectic (as you pointed out). Quincy Jones, therefore, gets all the credit for musical innovation you think Michael Jackson deserves. But then you have to give props to Isaac Hayes, for introducing symphonic orchestration to soul music on “Hot Buttered Soul” — before the Jackson Five’s first album. And Curtis Mayfield was no slouch in the A & R end of the music business (“Move on Up”, “We’re a Winner”).
In fact, if you want to step further back, Ray Charles refused to play before segregated audiences. His “Modern Sounds in Country and Western Music” used big band orchestration and produced hits in three genres (pop, country, and r & b) — in 1962!
But whatever; hundreds of millions of albums sold and the accolades of giants in the industry mean nothing I suppose.
Mariah Carey just passed Elvis Presley in lifetime records sold. ‘Nuff said.
Three names:
Bill “Bojangles” Robinson.
Sammy Davis, Jr.
JAMES BROWN.
All were popular black entertainers that incorporated slick dance moves into their performances. All of them explicity cited by MJ as influences.
You can add the Temptations and numerous other vocal groups to that list. Artists couldn’t play a chitlin’ circuit venue, like the Apollo or Baltimore’s own Royal, and just stand there…they had to “make show” if they wanted to impress those tough crowds (and managers).
You’re in danger of sliding past ‘88 Orioles and into ‘62 Mets country. Stop it.
Frank, I’m sure you’ve heard a double-CD called “Night Train to Nashville: Music City Rhythm & Blues 1945-1970.” That is some damn fine music.
I forgot to mention “James Brown ————– > Sly and the Family Stone ———– > George Clinton { Parliament / Funkadelic }”
No, Randy, But I remember WLAC from my Army days, when the sun went down, they boosted to 50,000 watts — I could hear it in Texas !
Went looking for the album on P2P and found “Early 50’s Black Radio R & B Singles” which includes “John R’s Theme Song”
Still looking
‘Quincy Jones may have done for Michael Jackson what George Martin did for the Beatles, i.e., made their music more mature and sophisticated, as well as eclectic (as you pointed out). Quincy Jones, therefore, gets all the credit for musical innovation you think Michael Jackson deserves.’
Whatever man; I don’t agree with your opinion, and you don’t agree with mine.
Life goes on.
‘Mariah Carey just passed Elvis Presley in lifetime records sold. ‘Nuff said’
The Beatles sold quite a few albums as well, but if as you say they owe everything to George Martin, who like Q, produced the music but didn’t compose it, I guess their influence was equally meagre.
Sure, album sales doesn’t equal musical influence, but neither does is it meaningless in terms of whether other artists glean anything worthwhile from music produced, sold and enjoyed on a vast scale.
Music, like many art forms, is built on a foundation of those who went before. We can argue all day about whom you consider to be more influential/important/durable/meaningful, but as I’ve said before, it’s a matter of opinion.
You seem convinced that yours is more informed, valuable and correct than mine, while I’ve merely suggested what I think; why is that so offensive to you?
‘You’re in danger of sliding past ‘88 Orioles and into ‘62 Mets country. Stop it.’
Whatever you say Professor Hubris.
“Night Train” is produced by the Country Music Hall of Fame & Museum, and is available through their website.
Jr.Funk,
I know when you were born by how you dated yourself talking about MJ when you were a kid.
Jr, Mozarts the closest we’re gonna get. Not gonna fit exactly, but he was damn popular in his day, fell from favour, built himself back up and had a tragic death. Whom the gods love best die young.
‘I know when you were born by how you dated yourself talking about MJ when you were a kid.’
So when was that, exactly?
‘Jr, Mozarts the closest we’re gonna get. Not gonna fit exactly, but he was damn popular in his day, fell from favour, built himself back up and had a tragic death. Whom the gods love best die young.’
No argument there; strange how the prodigy element seems to doom so many in adulthood.
I don’t understand why people mourn Jackson’s passing. To me, he was selfish, immature and self-indulgent. He could have done so much good with his wealth. He didn’t. He built fantasy parks for himself and his prepubescent friends and squandered his wealth on toys and seducing young boys. I don’t even see that he was such a great songwriter – name one song that people will be singing 50 years from now. There are 100 Beatles songs that will live forever. Walking backwards and grabbing your crotch repeatedly is not my idea of a legacy.
Hardly the most talented artist of his generation. Most talented post 60’s Disco type artist then yes.
“No argument there; strange how the prodigy element seems to doom so many in adulthood.”
Coincidentally I’ve been put in mind of another wunderkind and trailblazer, one of my own generation, Frankie Lyman. I was in jr. high and remember how “Why Do Fools Fall in Love” rocked our white world, way out in rural California. I was a dweeb but even I knew the lyrics. Contrast Frankie Lyman with MJ and you can calibrate what happened in the culture–music and otherwise–in between. Of course Lyman ended badly too, long after white promoters presumably took the lions’ share of profits. Rock and R&B weren’t huge industries then, and the big, big money was to come later.
Another big difference: Lyman was talented and his sound had style but few of us even knew (or cared) what he looked like, and even if we had we wouldn’t have wanted to emulate his physical style. (Elvis, perhaps a year or two later, was another story.) In the late 50’s whites I knew didn’t identify with blacks culturally–the gap was still too wide, and we could love their music but, insofar as we thought about it at all, assumed they lived in black neighborhoods, ate chitlins and yelled in church, and we couldn’t, or didn’t want to, go there.
By the time Michael Jackson came out with “Ben” I was an adult but noted that my [white] nephews were big fans of his. They not only bought the albums but were simulating the moon walk and trying to find clothes like his. Rock was much more a visual culture by that time, dictating image and lifestyle in a way that Elvis never dreamed. To call Jackson a “crossover artist” doesn’t begin to say it. He all but erased the line.
My pre-teen friends had danced to Lyman, though I know some of them were bigots; after all, he was only a singer. My nephews, on the other hand, knew Jackson’s every look and move, the names of his brothers, his biography and certainly his ethnicity and embraced it all. Part of being my age is appreciating some of the improvements in our culture–slow in coming as they were–and some of the change agents, too. This is not to equate MJ and MLK, but I wouldn’t underestimate the influence of black artists on our long slog toward social enlightenment.
Sorry, JrFunk, you are totally and completely wrong about black artists not being played REGULARLY on Top 40 radio in the 60s and 70s. Black artists were all over it, from “Locomotion” and “Love Potion Number Nine” in the early 60s to “Love Train” and “Hold On, I’m Comin’” in the early 70s to “I Will Survive” and “Le Freak” in the Disco era.
Not misinterpreted, just flat out incorrect.
‘I don’t understand why people mourn Jackson’s passing. To me, he was selfish, immature and self-indulgent. ‘
Sounds like a lot of performers.
‘He could have done so much good with his wealth. He didn’t. ‘
Ever hear of We are the World? It sold 7.5 million copies in the US alone, and wound up raising about $50 million for famine relief in Africa, written by MJ and Lionel Ritchie and produced by Quincy Jones.
‘My pre-teen friends had danced to Lyman, though I know some of them were bigots; after all, he was only a singer. My nephews, on the other hand, knew Jackson’s every look and move, the names of his brothers, his biography and certainly his ethnicity and embraced it all. Part of being my age is appreciating some of the improvements in our culture–slow in coming as they were–and some of the change agents, too. This is not to equate MJ and MLK, but I wouldn’t underestimate the influence of black artists on our long slog toward social enlightenment.’
Nor would I.
‘Sorry, JrFunk, you are totally and completely wrong about black artists not being played REGULARLY on Top 40 radio in the 60s and 70s. Black artists were all over it, from “Locomotion” and “Love Potion Number Nine” in the early 60s to “Love Train” and “Hold On, I’m Comin’” in the early 70s to “I Will Survive” and “Le Freak” in the Disco era.
Not misinterpreted, just flat out incorrect.’
Have it your way; radio has always been perfectly egalitarian.
Now you all knew it’d be just a matter of time before somebody brought Michael Jordan into this. Two performance prodigy Michaels, but only one was always doing the kooky stuff. What exactly was it that kept the other Michael reasonably grounded, ‘normal’, and universally respected as a person?
And Fred, you’re not the fred who got me to put the cap at the end, are you? How do you keep from duking it out with all the other freds out there?
Jrfunk, I have no idea why you would insist on this point.
I was 6 years old in 1960, and lived in Jacksonville, FL. At the time, it was a typical “Southern” city, like Mobile or Birmingham.
We listened to either WPDQ or WAPE (the Big Ape), the two most popular Top 40 stations, and I can assure you we heard black music all the time.
Throughout the 60s and 70s we heard the Supremes, the Temptations, Aretha Franklin, Otis Redding, Wilson Pickett, etc., etc. these were mixed in with white artists like the Beach Boys, the Beatles, Neal Sedaka, and even Tom Jones or Blood, Sweat and Tears. At our Junior High dances, cover bands played “Midnight Hour” and “Land of 1000 Dances.” The slow songs were “My Girl” and “You Send Me.” I heard Smokey Robinson singing “Tears of a Clown” so many freaking times I threw my transistor radio out the window one time.
No one is claiming that “radio has always been perfectly egalitarian.” What some of the …ahem…more mature commenters, like me, are saying is that it wasn’t Michael who broke through. It happened years before. MTV, yes, “White” radio, NO.
P.S.
“The performers most inspired by and derivative of Lymon and the Teenagers’ style are The Jackson 5 and its lead singer and future superstar Michael Jackson. Motown Records founder Berry Gordy, Jr. based much of the Jackson 5’s sound on Frankie Lymon & the Teenagers’ recordings.” –Wikipedia
Interesting.
‘No one is claiming that “radio has always been perfectly egalitarian.” What some of the …ahem…more mature commenters, like me, are saying is that it wasn’t Michael who broke through. It happened years before. MTV, yes, “White” radio, NO.’
Fine.
This might interest you (especially you, JR): http://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/N/htmlN/natkingcole/natkingcole.htm
You know, jr, I’m kind of on your side as far as your general tone and because I’ll side with Michael in any Jackson v. Sinatra debate. But I think, if we’re really honest, radio was so different from region to region back in the 60’s and 70’s that what was true in one market may have not been true in another. I just read an article about Michael that talked about the “re-segregation” of radio in the 70s, when formats like AOR rose up and disco divided people. But it wouldn’t surprise me to find out that the Supremes and Beatles were being played back to back in the 60s in a lot of places. All those white people who love Motown had to hear it somewhere.
But… generally, I’m on your side. How anyone could be dismissive of Michael Jackson is beyond me. We’re talking about a guy whose death had a massive effect on the very structure of the internet. I mean… damn, can’t we agree on something?
I still can’t get that annoying flute riff in “Tears of a Clown” out of my head after, what, 38 years?
‘But I think, if we’re really honest, radio was so different from region to region back in the 60’s and 70’s that what was true in one market may have not been true in another. I just read an article about Michael that talked about the “re-segregation” of radio in the 70s, when formats like AOR rose up and disco divided people. But it wouldn’t surprise me to find out that the Supremes and Beatles were being played back to back in the 60s in a lot of places. All those white people who love Motown had to hear it somewhere.’
I appreciate your support, and just to clarify, I wasn’t suggesting, as some have incorrectly claimed, that Black music was NEVER played on so called White radio, but rather that it wasn’t in as heavy rotation as White artists.
‘But… generally, I’m on your side. How anyone could be dismissive of Michael Jackson is beyond me. We’re talking about a guy whose death had a massive effect on the very structure of the internet. I mean… damn, can’t we agree on something?’
I couldn’t agree more; but get ready for a host of insulting and dismissive diatribes about how we’re both out of our minds from those who feel he was the Britney Spears of his age.
‘I still can’t get that annoying flute riff in “Tears of a Clown” out of my head after, what, 38 years?’
Try replacing it with that organ solo in ‘House of the Rising Sun.’
‘This might interest you (especially you, JR):’
Here’s another take on that groundbreaking program Frank.
http://www.classictvinfo.com/TheNatKingColeShow/
Good job, JR ! Now go check out “hoy hoy” and how there couldn’t have been rock ‘n’ roll without it.
And the “bird groups”, patterned after the Mills Brothers and the Ink Spots, gave birth to the doowop sound in the late 40’s and early 50’s.
The first “Kiddie Groups” : the Castells, Frankie Lymon and the Teenagers, the Students, the Schoolboys, and Pearl McKinnon and the Kodoks, were all black.
While you’re at it, you can look up Sonny Boy Williamson and the Rolling Stones; John Lee Hooker and Canned Heat; and Eric Clapton and Robert Johnson. You will find that not only was there a very deep and wide connection between white and black musicians, but that many white musicians freely acknowledged that debt.
Even Hopalong Cassidy (!) refused to attend movie openings of his, or autograph sessions, where the children’s lines were segregated by race.
Whites and blacks worked together to secure civil and economic equality for blacks – most notably in entertainment — from the late 40’s to the early 60’s, when they began to drift apart after the first Watts Riots. Forced integration through School busing was the main culprit.
Some early integrated suppliers of recorded music by black groups: Savoy, Chess, Checker, Atco / Atlantic and Stax / Volt.
Bruce Henry: When I was in the Army, the brothers would say, “Why did he start that song with cartoon music?!”
‘Forced integration through School busing was the main culprit.’
I don’t necessarily agree with that, but as to musicians taking up the mantle of those who preceded them, I previously said;
‘Music, like many art forms, is built on a foundation of those who went before.’
‘There is nothing new under the sun but there are lots of old things we don’t know.’
Ambrose Bierce
Which isn’t to say that you can’t use something already created as the basis for something new and innovative, but rather that everyone in the creative arts owes a debt to those who walked the path before them.
I still can’t get that annoying flute riff in “Tears of a Clown” out of my head after, what, 38 years?
That’s actually a piccolo, wielded by young Dayna Hartwick (who also played on the Four Tops’ “Reach Out-I’ll Be There” and “Bernadette”).
And it’s either 42 or 39 years, depending on who you ask. Stevie Wonder (!) wrote the melody and gave it to Smokey at a party. Smokey added lyrics and cut the tune with the Miracles in ‘66 or ‘67; it was released in August 1967 on the “Make It Happen” LP where it was buried.
In 1970 deejays in soul-crazed England discovered the track and started riding it like crazy. Tamla Motown (the company’s UK counterpart) put it out as a single, prompting Robinson and Berry Gordy to follow suit over here. The result was the Miracles’ only #1 Pop single with Smokey. (“Shop Around” made it to #2; “Love Machine,” with Smokey’s successor Billy Griffin, also hit the top spot.)
I don’t have empirical data/stats to back it up (just my recollection from listening and growing up in the sixties)
But I think the airplay was dependent on the region.
My frame of reference: I’m same age as Jackson, was in Jr High School when ‘I want you back’ hit the airwaves (7th grade, fall of ‘69). In Cleveland, as I recall, there were 2 ‘black’ stations, WJMO and WABQ, both AM, playing only contemporary R&B and soul format. All the other AM ‘pop’/'poprock’ stations during that time (from the early sixties on) were playing beatles, beachboys, sedaka, etc. Sure, a currrent R&B hit would be heard, but to get that steady dose of Temps, Chi-lites, booker T, James Brown, Supremes, Delphonics etc., you had to be listening to one of the 2 joints at the end of the dial (I think is was 1480 and 1540). Anyway….musicologists and historians will probably be debating the merits of MJ’s muscial contributions from now till the cows come home. I personally think 1) he is among one of the greatest ENTERTAINERs of the last century, and 2) his impact on the music industry (audio and visual mediums) and music BUSINESS has been nothing short of phenomenal. In response to someones earlier post, yes, I think 40-50 years from now, a couple of his melodies WILL still ring familiar, like a Gershwin showtune riff, or a Beatles lyric does…
And admit it, you’d be hard pressed to find someone who doesn’t have at least ONE MJ riff that still makes them tap a toe or do a little head bop when they hear it!
Last point irrelevant though it might be,
“The J5 didn’t compose or arrange any of their tunes, MJ did.”
Randy B, in case you hadn’t already realized it, I’m pretty sure you misundertood JRs statement there (I think his sentence structure kinda skewed what he meant to get across) which was that he (MJ) was involved with the development of HIS tunes, whereas J5 was not doing that same level of development with THEIR tunes.
That miscommunication briefly turned this otherwise lively discussion into an adversarial event for a moment. (I really hate on-line ‘pissin’ contests, such a waste of energy) Other than that I am thoroughly enjoying everyones perspective and personal insight on the music of our times! Thanks!
So there’s plenty of blame to go around.
‘“The J5 didn’t compose or arrange any of their tunes, MJ did.”
Randy B, in case you hadn’t already realized it, I’m pretty sure you misundertood JRs statement there (I think his sentence structure kinda skewed what he meant to get across) which was that he (MJ) was involved with the development of HIS tunes, whereas J5 was not doing that same level of development with THEIR tunes.’
Quite right Marc, which is why I clarified it, but obviously not to Randy’s liking.
I even went so far as to admit I was wrong about the number of tunes he penned on Thriller, and invited RB to do so re: his diatribe on that aspect of my post that he alone misinterpreted.
Still waiting.
Comparing Wacko’s legacy to a timeless old school pop culture giant like Sinatra is fool’s logic. Sinatra was alive for most of the 20th century, famous for 6 decades and a legend for 3.
Jacko was only alive for five decades. He made his showbiz bones in the 70s as a child star who started to turn into a freak by the 80s. By the time the 90s came around he was more well known for sleeping with kids and ironically hinted at his infamy with albums like Bad and Dangerous.
Modern R&B pop in general appeals to the primitive taste of nutjob media sheep who think bad ass noise is cool. Sinatra was our true father of song, the king of civilized music. Artists of his generation sang to you while rock and pop sang at you.
To compare MJ to Sinatra is like comparing the screaming, yelling and dancing of a socially and sexually confused manchild to the audio vocal personification of God. Enough said.
you all are kidding yourselves if you think mj was the only one, many people forget the trials and tribulations of jackie robinson, mahalia jackson, martin luther king, louis armstrong, sidney poirtier sammy davis james brown ground breakers they were and dont forget stevie wonder! yes mj had ground breakers also, but he was preceded by great iconic legends and yes he will be included in with those legends! he was iconic in his generation and elvis and the beatles in theirs…mj was beholdin to pop music….elvis was rock, country gospel rythem and blues…beatles were awesome in thier own right as are the others, mj brought insight and innovation to the industry, elvis and mj were cultural icons but let us not forget the great ones who preceded them, they will be forever in our hearts for years to come, let us enjoy the gifts they gave us and never forget them!!!!!!!!!!