common sense and a walk in many (?all) European cities shows a truth that is hard to prove with published Data. You guys seem smart enough to work on this:

I just returned from Winnipeg.
Spoke to two Canadian MD’s (specialist each) , and many “Joe Q patients”.
Everyone who doesn’t know any better is very happy with the medicine in Canada (ie not the MDs or the patients who were not routine).

SO if the Mediterranean diet is so good for you , as everyone already knows is proven ,
and a Mediterranean country then lives longer on less healthcare dollars than car-driving , non-wine drinking, stair-avoiding Americans,
why is it not exposed as moronic to conclude that the American healthcare consumer spending is the problem? (ie they get what they pay for here, mostly satisfied too, and I doubt magically switching all US doctors with the French would change our lifespans)

Yes , we need changes. We need menus with prices first. We need some USA government regulations in health insurance (remember how good banking was before we removed them). We need national plans, not inefficient 50 differnent state rules (but keep the state regulators , at least in the un-corrupt states).
We need real options like Not-for-profit Insurance companies (which is really all medicare is – with some national politics).

But I think we really just need to be less American.

Be honest, if American’s “Cars” are more expensive than the transportation of other countries’ , and those countries get around “better” , just show the data how:

What percent of people over 65 in “other medical systems” get dialysis? How do we get ARRP volunteers so we can lower our percentage here to the same number?

Publish the percent of respective national “populations” that get bone marrow transplants , and if higher in America just be honest with the number that will have to be limited here to control costs.

These restrictions are obviously done (to a traveler with a medical background) everywhere else and will “have” to be done here to save us from our own financial Entitlement “pig” in the snake this next decade anyway.

Just be honest so that the public can decide which citizens (poorer? a lottery? age based?) fairly can be denied lifespan-elongating Mercedes Benz’s and MRI’s.

I’ll get us started :
Prop 8 housing works for landlords, but isn’t that because of the risk that they could be evicted for not being a good tenant?

Which Americans are going to chose to have their appendix removed by someone who can’t afford to pay a settlement if a stitch pops? (even Micheal Jordan misses a free throw without being sued)

…. In the United States, the federal government has sovereign immunity and may not be sued unless it has waived its immunity or consented to suit. The United States has waived sovereign immunity to a limited extent…

Go make a profit on building a car, but don’t justify looting the health care system, too many lives rely on it.

Quite honestly, I’d much rather leave my well-being in the hands of the greedy bastard who will only get paid in full if I live a happy, healthy life over the altruistic do-gooder who thinks it is important for everyone to have access to health care. Here in the real world we can have the greedy bastard, but we won’t have the altruistic do-gooder. Instead we’ll have the indifferent drone who gets paid regardless of the outcome and who has an incentive to keep me as miserable and reliant upon his services as possible. Which is even worse.

And don’t underestimate the power of international corporations.

I’m not. However I worry that you are underestimating the power of the state.

I worry even more that you’re aware of the power and relying upon it.

Also, most corporations are increasingly immune from any type of accountability.

First that’s a demonstrable lie. Second, even granting it to be true, it is an immunity they enjoy at the leisure of the state. As soon as it is beneficial for the state to withdraw or limit that immunity, they are just as vulnerable as anyone else, save the state itself. The only entity which enjoys the immunity the state has is the state.

It basically says that if the program is watered down too much that it likely will fail.

So the only way it succeeds in competing against private enterprise is if it is given more power, funding, and breaks than could even be available to a non-governmental agency. Yup. Totally fair.

Which is kind of the right wing’s intent in gaining concessions: The right wing is genuinely are trying to sabotage the President.

This is why I love your commentary NR. You take what is a genuine, honest disagreement about a very important policy decision which will have long-reaching, possibly history-changing consquences, and those who disagree with the side you support are saboteurs. I remember it wasn’t that long ago when dissent was patriotic.

It won’t…

I know it won’t. This will make the “too big to fail” from the financial industry seem like change from the couch cushions.

…since we live in a democracy, that an opposing party would be able to use this as a talking point to pull themselves out of the root cellar of public opinion where they currently reside.

They might not be able to pull themselves all the way out, but the nearly inevitable epic “fell” this will represent would probably lower those currently walking on water down into the cellar.

FAIL!

It won’t but I would think, since we live in a democracy, that an opposing party would be able to use this as a talking point to pull themselves out of the root cellar of public opinion where they currently reside.

Republicans should be happy if they truly think the Obama system is going to fell. The fact that they’re shitting themselves points to that they know it has a good chance of working.

“Not Enough Audacity.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/26/opinion/26krugman.html

It specifically addresses one of your questions: “What do you think would happen if President Obama’s dream of a health care exchange came to pass with a public option being available, and the public option failed?”

It basically says that if the program is watered down too much that it likely will fail.

Which is kind of the right wing’s intent in gaining concessions: The right wing is genuinely are trying to sabotage the President.

The right wing are looking for concessions that will cripple the President’s programs.

And a lot of right wingers are helping by screaming that if the President doesn’t give them the concessions (that will cripple his objectives) than he isn’t being “Bipartisan” enough.

I’m tired of watching the Dems play patty-cake with right wingers who are actively trying to sabotage not just the President, but America.

It’s why I have so little patience with the reprehensible chicanery of the right wing trolls here.

That’s corporatism.

Go make a profit on building a car, but don’t justify looting the health care system, too many lives rely on it.

And don’t underestimate the power of international corporations.

That’s where libertarianism is often just a mask for corporatists, absurdly pretending that a corporation like Wal-Mart doesn’t “use its powers to compel other entities to comply with its wishes through any number of ways.” It does every day.

China-Wal-Mart has crushed a legion of well-run American industries and handed those industries over to China. Companies that don’t comply with China-Wal-Mart’s demands die and even those that comply get squeezed in ways that all of the profit goes to a small family in Arkansas that is selling out America’s manufacturing base, selling out American workers, and empowering a fascist totalitarian China.

Also, most corporations are increasingly immune from any type of accountability.

That’s been a core part of the concessions that the corporatists (faux-libertarians) have gotten out of their unnatural relationship with the social-conservatives. In return, the social-conservatives have pushed (and in some cases won) the power to legislate morality (gay marriage, abortion, creationism taught in schools…).

Large corporations are increasingly turning to the right wing activist Judges on the Supreme Court to receive immunities from their actions.

And large corporations have dictated barriers to limit competition since the founding of our nation. That was a key complaint about the British Tea Companies immunity from accountability and the fact that they were given a tax cut.

The early American Colonists threw the original “Tea Party” to protest a corporations tax cut.

A lot of right wingers clearly don’t believe that corporations can compete with government.

That depends on what you mean by “compete”. If you mean that private enterprise can provide better services for cheaper while providing a profit for investors or owners, then private enterprise will kick the gov’t’s ass every day of the week and twice on Sunday. If you instead mean that it can provide products or services cheaper without regard for cost or profit, then it can’t.

The government has powers available to it which private enterprise does not. Game-changing powers. Like the power to establish and change the rules. Also the power to enforce the rules as it sees fit. It also has the ability to tap into the coffers of the public through taxes. Government is under no obligation to turn a profit, or even cover its own expenses. The government is also able to use its powers to compel other entities to comply with its wishes through any number of ways. The government is also immune to most forms of accountability as it can make itself immune from lawsuits for unsatisfactory performance. The government is able to establish barriers which limit competition.

What do you think would happen if President Obama’s dream of a health care exchange came to pass with a public option being available, and the public option failed?

I’m assuming you have health insurance coverage, or are you one of the 47 MILLION Americans that aren’t covered by health care insurance?

I’m serious, “Dennis”, tell the class as much as you can about your health coverage.

How much does it cost a year?

Did you buy the plan yourself?

Are you covered through a family member?

Does your employer cover you?

Seriously. What do you know about your own health care plan?

Are you covered by one of the corporate-medical-insurance companies that practice rationing health care coverage through rescission?

How would you afford your health care coverage if you were fired?

(and if your job is to troll websites, if your ‘employer’ ever institutes a quality control oversight program, you’ll be out of work sooner than you think)

Fear not. Fortune favors the bold. You want to be like Quaker in a Basement, you have to do some digging, then step up to the plate and take a swing.

Don’t always be the back bencher.

“Dennis” is a closet socialist.

Here he is saying it in print at his former blog:

SINGLE-PAYER BY STEALTH
–Ezra Klein
The American Prospect
May 7,2008

…”The HCA {Health Care for America market} is created to compete with the traditional private market. With its more attractive terms, the hope is that the HCA will largely overwhelm the private market, becoming a sort of de facto single-payer plan. Indeed, the Lewin analysis factors in this competition, and the brutal effect it will have on the private market, explicitly….”

Bold mine. And hopefully I entered the ellipses correctly, knowing what sticklers folks are here about that, but in any event I included the link so everyone can read for themselves.

Why are you so afraid to refute him and his words and choose to instead go on another of your patented incomprehensible diversions? You’ve been saying how ridiculous it is to suspect that in Obama all day. Why don’t you call Better Than Ezra a right winger? You can’t, because he’s honest about it. Obama and Rahm just want to bullshit us and the rest of the country. Apparently he’s bullshit you effectively, too.

It’s obvious when you’re scared to address the subject at hand, Newsie, because your verbal diarrhea just goes all spastic.

Well, tell you what, it’s safe to say that I’d refute just about everything that the sick twisted minds of right winger of Ed Morissey and his militantly venomous sidekick Michelle “Concentration Camp Advocate” Malkin says.

But back to you, “Dennis”, if you have no faith in corporations don’t expect me to protect corporations from competition.

And “Dennis”, you’ve chosen to sell out Americans in favor of the corporations that have failed US.

While the left wing is concerned about American’s health, you are concerned that corporations won’t be able to loot our health care systems.

Why are you betraying Americans “Dennis”? Do you really hate America that much, “Dennis”? Or is someone sending you a tiny bag full of silver for all of your repugnant posts?

Which is it “Dennis”? Do you hate America? Or are you just a sell out?

Refute him.

Chickenshit.

And do you use this site for cruising, or something? You’ve been doing the mushy thing a lot this past week. What’s up with that?

A lot of right wingers clearly don’t believe that corporations can compete with government.

Right wingers that think corporations need to be protected from competition are clearly losing their faith in the predatory ‘free’ market-cult.

Sounds like right winger “Dennis” has taken his first step towards socialism.

Clearly right winger “Dennis” is following his Republican communist leader George Bush and the Republicans GIANT step into socialism/communism last September 2008.

Remember when the Republican Party nationalized banks in September 2008?

Funny times…

Health care is one of these things, when you need it most you can’t call up your insurance provider and discuss the cost.

Why would you discuss the cost the health care services you’re receiving with your insurance? The person charging you is the hospital/ health care provider. Discuss the costs they’re charging with them, not the insurance company. Calling the insurance company to try and get the price of medical services reduced is like calling your bank to try to get the dealer to reduce the price they’re charging for a car.

Of course, I don’t know why you think you can’t call your insurer to discuss what they’ll reimburse the doctor or the hospital for. I did it before I went Active Duty after I had to have a minor procedure done and got them to cover some work they weren’t going to. However this requires people to take responsibility for their own well-being and actions. Again, this is something which is trying to be taken away from us, and we’re allowing that to happen.

I will agree that the market has failed to meet health care needs when the market is allowed to try to meet health care needs free of meddling from the political class. When I see someone purposing that insurers be allowed to offer catastrophic illness or injury coverage only I’ll believe they’re serious about reforming health care to help Americans hedge their risks. Until then it’s just another way to buy votes and reduce liberty.

Just where are you guys getting stuff like,”replacing a broken system with a gov’t administered and subsidized plan” and “award them the rest of the health care industry”?

So far, the only proposal I’ve heard is a plan to allow some folks to buy health insurance from the government.–Quaker in a Basement (News Reference’s new objet d’affection)

Maybe from people like this, when they are being honest with themselves:

Washington Post and Journo-List creator Ezra Klein speaking candidly at the NetRoots Nation 2008 Conference about the deceptive strategy of Obamacare:

Ezra Klein on the “sneaky” stalking horse of a public plan for single-payer

Ed Morrissey:Everything conservatives have been saying about the public plan is true, and that’s just fine with Ezra. He’d like to throw tens of thousands of people out of work and collapse an entire industry, one that satisfies over 80% of its clients mind you, because he doesn’t care for it. So instead of actually arguing for its elimination, as Ezra does more honestly than most of his colleagues, they trot out a “public plan” that Ezra concedes will do covertly what he wants to do overtly.”

On top of the socialized fire departments, the socialized police departments, and the socialized military that the left supports* add the socialized water departments, and socialized electric departments.

Every single time any of those public institutions have been ‘privatized’ and handed over to the predatory ‘free market’ they have failed miserably.

The private corporate-medical-industry has been shown to be a profound failure as well.

The private corporate-medical-industry has completely failed almost 1/6th of the American Citizenry but more than that, the corporate-medical-industry even fails those that paid for corporate-medical-insurance.

When corporate-bureaucrats decide to ration health care by arbitrarily rescinding coverage in pursuit of a bonus, that’s a profound failure of an extremely predatory ‘free market’ system that’s completely broken.

* why does the right wing hate our American Police Officers, Fire Responders, and Military Troops?

More broadly, why do right wingers hate Americans?