Conservative Pastor Wiley Drake Prays For Obama Death
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Our “religious” friends on the right emulate their counterparts in the Middle East yet again.
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Two things about the interview, neither of which is surprising.
First, Drake is an asshole and seriously disturbed.
Second is the fact that Alan Colmes remains one of the most loathsomely insiped woefully wussy broadcasters ever to bear the mantle ‘liberal’. Its no wonder Hannity loved having him as his sychophantic sidekick; he’s a poster boy for the con stereotype of the limp, passive liberal.
I somehow missed this part in my spiritual life where Jesus answers the prayers of death onto others? He talks about a personal relationship with Christ but someone should tell him that God(though he may be Italian….joke follows)is not a Sicilian mobster who whacks people because you ordered. These clowns give real Christians a very bad name.
This theology stuff is complicated!
So, I can pray for someone’s death, but still condemn the person who answers my prayers by killing the person I was praying would die…
Because, when I prayed that the person would die, I didn’t mean I wanted him to be murdered.
Isn’t there an old joke about a man who stays sitting atop the roof of his house while flood waters rise and refuses help from two boats and a helicopter because he insists God is going to save him, only to arrive in heaven and be told that God had sent the boats and the helicopter?
I think this guy needs to understand that when he prays for God to kill people, God has to arrange some mechanism to make that happen. Sure, it could be cancer, but a gunman works more quickly.
The bottom line is, if God listens to your prayers, and you pray for someone’s death (on the assumption that your prayers can have an impact on what God chooses to do), then when that person dies, you have murdered them. Even if God does kill Obama with cancer, it will be in response to the good reverend’s prayers, and the good reverend will be a murderer. A lazy, cowardly murderer, unlike the proactive guy who shot Dr. Tiller, but a murderer nonetheless.
Right?
Or is the guy who shot Dr. Tiller not a murderer since he was only a helpless tool in the omnipotent hand of God who was answering the prayers of the good reverend, who is the real murderer… or…
So confusing.
What I find interesting (and it’s not the lunatic calling himself a pastor) was his term for Obama–usurper. And just who did Obama usurp the presidency from and why hasn’t anybody told the eight million more people who voted for him than McCain. Should we all feel a little cheated being left in the dark about this?
This circle jerk follows in the footsteps of another narrow-minded idiot in Los Angeles, the so-called “Reverend” R L Hymers, who kept praying for the death of Supreme Court Justices. And, of course, since he is a Republican, he can get away with saying such shit.
To even believe for a moment that this guy’s ravings approximate Christian dogma is foolish at best, mean-spirited and intolerant at worst.
But you can’t go wrong bashing Christians, eh ?
Frank DiSalle,
I’m wondering where this defense of “christian values” were/are when someone is murdered IN A CHURCH?
From what I remember most of what I saw was defense of the assassin via demonizing the victim.
Peace be with you
Frank DiSalle,
Do you feel the same way when all inhuman acts like say torture are either endorsed, pronounced from the pulpit?
Nobody’s bashing Christian values because these are NOT Christian values. Neither is supporting war where hundreds of thousands of innocents die. But most American Christians did. Neither is keeping quiet when a man is shot in his own church. Neither is torture or hypocrisy or bashing empathy, but that’s what the most vocal self-proclaimed Christians support. Do you have any idea WHY women get abortions performed by Dr. Tiller? In most cases, without terminating the pregnancy, they would not only lose that baby, but have no chance to reproduce again. So the pro-life rationale is BS.
Another con pastor issuing a fatwa against a liberal
Nobody’s bashing Christian values because these are NOT Christian values.
Ditto
Frankie that is kinda the point.
Nobody’s bashing Christian values because these are NOT Christian values.
Well, the pastor believes these are Christian values.
Right wingers don’t worship Jesus Christ.
Right wingers worship a Serpent they named ‘Jesus Christ’.
The point is that one Minister was found with a faux Christian rationalization for an act which is equal parts stupid and evil, and Oliver takes great care to describe him as “conservative”.
“Conservative” in which way? Is he for conservation of natural resources? Is he big on recycling?
I don’t think that’s what Oliver was driving at, do you?
Republican/conservative/libertarian/right-wing philosophy is un-Christian.
Republican/conservative/libertarian/right-wing philosophy is antithetical to Christianity.
Frank,
Actually I see your point but by “conservative” he is addressing social conservatives and their anti-Obama screeds. One could argue that this is just some isolated incident where a crazy person said something crazy, however Christianist that make up a strong part of the conservative movement preach this dribble to the masses. I would point to ole Newtie saying “we are surrounded by paganism”.
Frank DiSalle,
Do you feel the same way when all inhuman acts like say torture are either endorsed, pronounced from the pulpit?
I’m wondering where this defense of “christian values” were/are when someone is murdered IN A CHURCH?
From what I remember most of what I saw was defense of the assassin via demonizing the victim.
Peace be with you
Frank, at what point do unsavory comments and villainous deeds reflect Christian values? How many pastors/ministers/priests have to say profoundly stupid and evil things in order for us to consider them reflective of Christian values? How many children have to be molested before we consider child rape to be a Christian value?
Or are Christian values merely an ideal that many struggle to live up to? I could buy that. In which case, I would have great respect for the Christian values that emphasize peace and respect for fellow man. And I would still be very leery of self-professed Christians, considering their awful track record of following these simple ideals.
Of course, I don’t know if I can blame them. For every Biblical verse extolling virtue in peace and love, there’s a verse that encourages spreading the word of God with bloodshed. For every commendable, socially-responsible lesson the Bible teaches, it frequently recounts how women are subordinate to men, that slavery is good, and that eating shellfish is sinful.
I love shellfish, and I’ll be damned if any ancient book is gonna make me stop eating it.
But seriously, the point about Christian values stands. What are Christian values? It’s so fucking tough to know. One priest says “X, not Y”, another pastor says “Y, not X”, the Bible contradicts itself in a TON of places… this is the sort of thing that makes me believe that Christianity is a human invention, and not of God. A religion, borne of human minds, which can be shaped and molded to the church’s advantage. God’s work could not POSSIBLY be so shoddy.
Oh, and Frank, I think that OW was calling him “conservative” because he’s politically conservative. He was Alan Keyes’ Vice-Presidential candidate. I don’t think a political liberal would be in that spot.
The point is that one Minister was found with a faux Christian rationalization for an act which is equal parts stupid and evil, and Oliver takes great care to describe him as “conservative”.
How is it “faux-Christian”? This guy didn’t pull the concept of “imprecatory prayer” out of his ass did he?
I decided to look into this Imprecatory Prayer. At first it looked like a legitimate use of prayer for the destruction of ones enemies. (even going as it did against the teachings that I had learned and gleaned from study.) Then on closer look I see that it is only to be used in “defense of immediate danger of losing ones life.
So no from my understanding of this form of prayer is was used improperly in this case.
Frank DiSallie I was in error in stating it was in point of fact a Christian Value.
Though once again the spirit of my point stands.
In the explanation of imprecatory prayer that I found, it would seem that praying for the death of President, no matter what his ideology, would be inappropriate, as that sort of Prayer is to be used “against implacable enemies”.
By the nature of their position, and how they come to power and hold it, they can hardly be considered “implacable enemies”. The Huns or the Mongols, maybe — but Presidents? Nope.
Mambochicken , if I understand you correctly, you are asking , “At what point can ‘unsavory comments and villainous deeds’ be considered to reflect ‘Christian values’?”
Others have said things similar to “Do statements in support of torture reflect Christian values?” “How about supporting a war where ‘thousands of innocent people die’”?
I hope I am not seen as evading the answer, when I say, “That depends”. In the instance of praying that Obama dies, I think the explanation of Imprecatory Prayer that I linked to explains what its purposes are, and why the Minister was using it inappropriately.
Torture and ancillary casualties (“collateral damage”) fall into a differing category. Is supporting the policy of a President and praying for his success, always a “Christian value”? We are commanded by the Epistles to obey lawful authorities; must we pray for their success? Personally, I would say no, not knowing or caring whether my belief was supported by any Christian faith. And here’s why : I believe that it is proper to pray that God’s Will be done, and that God grant to us the ability to , at some time, see and accept what that Will might be. On a personal level, we can pray that an operation to save a relative’s life will be successful. But it may be God’s Will that that person will die on the operating table, because it is God’s Will that we continue our life without that person in our life, for whatever reason.
Further, we can pray that our leaders be given Wisdom, which is, in part, insight into God’s Will, so that they will do the right thing, and cease doing the wrong thing. In that case, you might pray that our leaders see the wisdom in providing health care for all the people who need it, that are currently without it. I might pray that the President might see the wisdom in valuing the potential for life of an unborn child, as opposed to the woman who, no matter how her life will be affected, will not be giving up her life if she gives birth.
You see? We are praying for God’s Will to be done, but hoping that what we want is what God wants. Just as no person is perfect (but I expect that nearly all people try to be good but fail, sometimes); so, too, do I believe that praying “perfectly” is a goal that we can strive for, and hope that occasionally, we will reach it.
That’s why I pray, “God grant me the strength to endure that which is Thy Will”.
Mambochicken, I think that you see religion, and by extension, the Bible as a badly prepared set of instructions for living a good life. And looking at some of the things people have done in the name of religion. that is an understandable observation. But I look at religion in terms of the etymology of the word “re” – ‘again” and “ligio” – ‘to connect’. From that, I gather that we were connected to God in some way, which waxes and wanes, and, therefore requires constant care and attention to maintain. I therefore believe that whatever I do to repair and maintain that connection is good, whatever I do that attempts to disrespect, destroy or abandon that connection is bad. You might ask, “Where do rituals and services in Church figure into that?” In my case, the answer is: Not much, if at all.
I hear many of the same defenses of Republicanism that I hear of Christianity:
That guy who claims to be a Christian/Republican cannot be a REAL Christian/Republican because the ideas of Christianity/Republicanism are infallible; its the actions of so-called Christians/Republicans that are at fault.
Because ideas that govern human belief and action are totally removed from human belief and action…
Why does anyone have to PRAY that “God’s will be done?”
He’s GOD, right? His will will be done regardless, right?
This is what makes me laugh about religious people. They wander all past their logical ass to get to their rhetorical elbow, spouting superstitious nonsense the whole time.
Imprecatory prayer my ass.
To even believe for a moment that this guy’s ravings approximate Christian dogma is foolish at best, mean-spirited and intolerant at worst.
Perhaps, however consider this. If a Muslim priest (forgive me, I don’t know the proper term) were to pray for the death of our previous President, how do you think it would be portrayed and how do you think people would react?
His will will be done regardless, right?
Nope.
Human beings have free will. The example I am familiar with is this: A burglar is ready to enter your house. It is not God’s Will that he commit the sin of theft. But it may be God’s Will that you be deprived of your television for a while, for whatever reason.
So God allows the burglar to succeed in stealing your television.
A man is about to be executed by having his head lopped of with an executioner’s axe. As the man approaches his end, the executioner recognizes him as the man who made love to his virgin daughter , and, when caught, escaped out a window.
The executioner now thinks: “I will be glad to execute the man who defiled my daughter (yeah, it happened a long time ago, so he said “defiled”).” What could have been a lawful act of carrying out the orders of the state, is now a sin.
Think My Lai: preparing to attack a village artillery , mortars and maybe even aerial bombing are used to destroy an enemy site. Thos soldiers have committed no sin
BUT the soldiers who entered the village, and discovered that it was occupied by civilian non-combatants, did sin when they massacred women and children.
What about Katrina, Frank? Act of God, or a visitation of doom upon the wicked? I mean, you leave open both possibilities–unless everyone in the region was either good or wicked.
I want God’s job. Get to do whatever the fuck in the universe you want to, and it’s never your fault when something goes wrong.
Wait, that’s not God’s job, that’s the motto on the GOP’s Great Seal…
Frank,
Can you give those of us who find theology to be a ridiculous attempt at piling assumption upon assumption and wrenching some sort of conclusion from all this, all in order to gain control over a segment of the population, a little help?
I can’t tell the difference between religions, since they all strike me as equally ridiculous. How do atheists like myself separate the “true” Christians like you from all other sects like the one in the article that merely *claim* to be Christian?
Is it possible that there is a Muslim equivalent of this nutcase sect, and that it has become the terrorist stereotype by dint of making the most noise, and that the rest of Islam is as peace-loving and profoundly worshipful as your “one true” Christian sect is?
Frank, I get the logic of what you just said, but I’m not buying it. There’s a reason the phrase “The road to hell is paved with good intentions” exists.
I can’t tell the difference between religions, since they all strike me as equally ridiculous. How do atheists like myself separate the “true” Christians like you from all other sects like the one in the article that merely *claim* to be Christian?
First of all , it is not considered by those who study comparative religions, that the common thread that joins all religions is that “Atheists” find them ridiculous …
First, what religion is not. Religion is not magic. Anthropologists distinguish Religion from Magic in this way :
With magic, the efficacy of the prayer depends upon the precision of the ritual …
With religion, the efficacy depends on the purity of the petitioner.
The “goodness” depends on intent, and God can see your intention.
The problem I, and other conservatives, have with the general Muslim population is that they say next to nothing about terrorism.
After 9/11, what I heard from the Muslim population in America, was not, “We will join our fellow Americans erasing these terrorists from the face of the earth”, but, rather, “Please don’t hurt us because you think we are like them.”
The average American, I suspect, knows little or nothing about Islamic dogma. What I know about it is minimal, and complicated .
Right wing militant extremist “Frank ‘Scott Roeder’ DiSalle” absurdly claims: “The problem I, and other conservatives, have with the general Muslim population is that they say next to nothing about terrorism.”
The problem I, and other sane Americans, have with the general right wing extremists in America, is that they say next to nothing about domestic terrorism like the murdering of Doctors and bombings of clinics.
Militant right wing extremists like “Frank” only complain about terrorism when the terrorist is brown or Muslim. When the terrorist is a white Christian, suddenly extremists like “Frank” warp logic and reality in order to protect that white Christian terrorist from even being accurately labeled “terrorist”.
Why do you protect terrorists “Frank DiSalle”?
The problem I, and other sane Americans, have with the general right wing extremists in America, is that they say next to nothing about domestic terrorism like the murdering of Doctors and bombings of clinics. News Idiot
They said plenty, News Idiot. Like many other stupid comments you make here, that is nothing more than a bald-faced lie that you could not even begin to back up with any kind of a reference. It’s just you blathering for attention.
Frank: “Anthropologists distinguish Religion from Magic in this way :
With magic, the efficacy of the prayer depends upon the precision of the ritual …
With religion, the efficacy depends on the purity of the petitioner.”
Is this true, Frank? Do you mean that this is how anthropologists define the underpinnings of these two ideas, as framed within their own respective worlds? Or do you mean that this is actually the way it works in real-life? I think you mean the former, which I might be able to buy. If you mean the latter, though… that’s a bit out there. I would dispute that and say that neither magic nor prayer have any efficacy whatsoever, and both merely serve as placebos to credulous people.
Question: When Jesus turned water to wine, was that a magic trick?
I will also dispute your contention that human beings have free will. This topic has the potential of throwing this thread into chaos, but what the hell, I’ll keep it short.
If every instant in time is immediately preceded and dependent on the previous instant in time, then the entire universe is nothing but a long, predictable chain of events. If I knew all the relevant features of the universe’s composition, I would be able to predict the configuration of the universe at the NEXT instant in time, and the next, and the next… I would be able to predict exactly the events that would happen a year from now. Think of it like predicting the weather, only much more complicated. If the universe is on that track, and we’re all not exempt from these physical laws, that means all (and I do mean ALL) our lifelong behavior is theoretically predictable from before we are born. It is difficult to figure out where we have the flexibility for free will in this system.
Alternatively, the world is chaotic and random, not predictable. In which case, we have the same problem from a different direction – how can free will, presumably an orderly kind of phenomenon, arise from chaos?
I see this as the kind of issue that will either drive a thinking person to atheism or religion. It helped bring me to atheism.
Let me be more specific, “Dennis”, the problem I have with right wing extremists in America is that right-wingers often actively encourage domestic terrorism.
The most egregious example is Rupert Murdoch’s terrorist FOX network.
Right winger’s violent, hateful rhetoric encourages terrorism and when terrorist acts result frome those right wingers outspoken PRAYERS and broadcast wishes they act like there isn’t any connection between their words and the actions that they encourage.
me: “… how can free will, presumably an orderly kind of phenomenon, arise from chaos?”
I wanted to throw a comparison out there, pre-emptively. On the surface, I think many deniers of evolutionary theory would jump on this statement and make an ill-advised comparison to a different question: “How can life spring from non-life?” Alternatively, maybe “How can all of existence spring from non-existence?”
As for the first question, we have theory and the fossil record evidence that offers insight into the origins of life and of biodiversity. The theory of evolution by natural selection provides an excellent mechanism for speciation. As for the second question, I don’t know enough about theoretical physics to answer intelligently. I wouldn’t be surprised if the answer is “No one really knows.”
Anyway – I guess what I’m looking for is the mechanism that enables us to have free will. I think that many people invoke God for this purpose – we have free will because God allows it to be so. That’s all well and good, theoretically, and in a vacuum… but then they run into trouble when they have to account for the validity of the mechanism.
When I’m confronted by THAT problem, the lack of evidence for a free will-granting deity… that’s what forces me to accept the null position, namely, that there’s no God and no free will.
Frank, this is all a long-winded way of asking you for a mechanism or some evidence for the existence of free will in people. I’m curious.
If I knew all the relevant features of the universe’s composition, I would be able to predict the configuration of the universe at the NEXT instant in time, and the next, and the next… I would be able to predict exactly the events that would happen a year from now.
It’s called the mechanical universe, and it hasn’t been in favor in physics for about 100 years, give or take a decade. The universe is neither clock-work nor completely random and chaotic.
The scientific implications of quantum mechanics and chaos theory should not be confused with the everyday notion that chaos = disorder and randomness. The universe obeys certain laws and principles and yet some of these laws seem to be non-deterministic, i.e. one cannot predict with absolute certainty the trajectory of an electron through a small slit.
SQ, that’s all well and good. I do know that there are different rules for the macroscopic and microscopic (i.e., subatomic) worlds. As I understand it (and I am no physicist, so I may be wrong), the Newtonian mechanics of the macroscopic world can be thought to be akin to clockwork. If I flip a coin with exact same angular velocity, in the same atmospheric conditions, at the same height, etc., I should be able to consistently produce a “heads” result. That a coin-flip SEEMS random is simply due to our inability to control all the necessary factors that impute to the results of the flip.
The subatomic universe seems to be probabilistic in nature, and not deterministic, you’re right. We can only predict where an electron will probably be in the electron cloud, and not be absolutely certain. Two critical questions, though.
1) Does the subatomic world impact the macroscopic world in any meaningful way, or does Newtonian mechanics effectively predict events that happen in our perceptual world?
2) Does the fact that the subatomic world is probabilistic, and not deterministic, give a mechanism for free will in humans?
I’m somewhat confident that the answer to #1 is “No. For predictive purposes, Newtonian mechanics are all that is needed.” Again, I stress that I am not married to this idea because this isn’t a subject I am expert in.
For #2, I’m more confident that the answer is no. It just looks like another dead end, with respect to free will.
Right winger’s violent, hateful rhetoric encourages terrorism and when terrorist acts result frome those right wingers outspoken PRAYERS and broadcast wishes they act like there isn’t any connection between their words and the actions that they encourage. News
What are you saying now, NI, that because some nutjob pastor prayed for someone’s death that God is going to answer that prayer?
And that that is domestic terrorism?
So if Barack is diagnosed with lung cancer from smoking cigarettes his entire adult life and God knows what back in his youth, you’ll all be going nuts on that pastor because he prayed to God something like that would happen? Do you ever stop to read what you’ve just written before you hit the submit button? Ever?
With magic, the efficacy of the prayer depends upon the precision of the ritual …
With religion, the efficacy depends on the purity of the petitioner.
The “goodness” depends on intent, and God can see your intention.
Sorry, I don’t see a difference at all.
that’s what forces me to accept the null position, namely, that there’s no God and no free will.
((‘m) asking you for a mechanism or some evidence for the existence of free will in people. I’m curious.
If there is no god, isn’t free will a default position? We are bound by our orbits but that’s all.
You can predict future moments in time to a point, but at some point, you cannot predict what atoms are going to do.
The universe obeys certain laws and principles and yet some of these laws seem to be non-deterministic,
In a nutshell, really big things behave predictably, really small things, not so much.
What are you saying now, NI, that because some nutjob pastor prayed for someone’s death that God is going to answer that prayer?
And that that is domestic terrorism?
You totally missed his point.
Duros: “You can predict future moments in time to a point, but at some point, you cannot predict what atoms are going to do…. In a nutshell, really big things behave predictably, really small things, not so much”
Sure. The subatomic world isn’t strictly predictable. I’m not disputing that (and realize my first post on this topic was not written so elegantly, and therefore lends confusion to my position). If you accept that macroscopic things behave predictably, then it seems like you have to accept that animals, specifically humans, behave predictably. And if behavior is predictable (e.g., behavior is a product of deterministic physical laws), you seem to lose free will. If I somehow have the relevant information to know that you are going to step on a nail on December 16th, 2016, and then you do it… doesn’t the utter predictability of the situation eliminate free will?
Another way of thinking about it… we know that the Colorado River eroded layers of rock away to leave the Grand Canyon. We don’t impute any kind of concept of free will to the river. What makes us different from the river?
The whole nature of the subject I do study (experimental psychology, specifically animal learning and behavior) is predicated on the idea that behavior IS predictable. If you give a rat “X” set of stimuli, in “Y” manner, you WILL observe “Z” behavior at test. Behavior is lawful. What makes us different from the rat?
mambochicken : Are you saying that if you, for example, turn on a red light in a darkened room with a rat in each of two cages, that you will ever see identical behavior by each of the rats?
Think of that as free will; or, think of lunch hour in a major corporation: It is lunch hour for all, but some don’t even eat, some eat at their desk, some bring their lunch but eat in the lunch room, etc. etc.
Conservative Pastor Wiley Drake Prays For Obama Death
Obama’s Pastor, Role model and Spiritual Mentor of 20 years complains that “Jews” are keeping him from President Obama
Jeez, what a clown. Sane Christians, take your religion back, please.
Frank,
No, you won’t see identical behavior in rats in most instances. There will be variation between organisms. However, even that variation is lawful in nature. This is actually the subject of my dissertation work – the effect of reinforcement contingencies on the variability of behavior. Turns out that you can manipulate variability in instrumental and Pavlovian action very readily by the altering the probability of reward; in fact, you can even directly train animals to respond more or less variably. In other words, variation in behavior can be an instrumental action, in and of itself, just like flipping a light switch, firing a gun, or pressing a lever. This isn’t even touching on the variation between organisms due to biological differences (e.g., genetics).
And even if you wanted to define free will in terms of variation in behavior across organisms, you still have the problem of defining the mechanism that explains how free will is possible. Like I said, if you want to invoke God for that, I understand but disagree.
I think we’ve gone pretty far afield in this thread, and that’s my fault. I just find this topic exceedingly interesting.
I’ll see your Preacher (who was repudiated), “Dave in SoCal”, and raise you a Witch Chasing Preacher (who wasn’t repudiated).
http://google.com/search?q=Sarah+Palin+witchcraft
Republican Sarah Palin was the right wing’s weapon against Witches!
And for good measure, I’ll raise you again with an evolution denier:
http://google.com/search?q=Sarah+Palin+evolution+Dinosaurs
You betcha!
The subatomic universe seems to be probabilistic in nature, and not deterministic, you’re right. We can only predict where an electron will probably be in the electron cloud, and not be absolutely certain.
By any math currently known.
Does that preclude a more complex math from making accurate predictions in the future?
Does that preclude a more complex math from making accurate predictions in the future?
Unfortunately.
It is lunch hour for all, but some don’t even eat, some eat at their desk, some bring their lunch but eat in the lunch room, etc. etc.
And that is measurable and, to some extent, predictable.
you still have the problem of defining the mechanism that explains how free will is possible
It is not necessary to explain how free will is possible, unless you had demonstrated that it was not.
If you want to look at “free will” as simply microscopically minute course corrections in what is a preordained path, it still resembles free will.
If you could burn a stand of trees; replant it, regrow it, then burn it again, the stand would never burn the same way twice in a million years. If the trees were sentient for even a moment,what would stop them from thinking, “You may set us ablaze, and we are powerless against the flames, but we can choose how we burn”?
Frank: “It is not necessary to explain how free will is possible, unless you had demonstrated that it was not.”
But that’s just it. I did give a mechanism for how free will isn’t really possible. Determinism and the (theoretical) predictability of behavior preclude free will. So, can you counter that?
Frank: “If you want to look at “free will” as simply microscopically minute course corrections in what is a preordained path, it still resembles free will.”
Hell, I recognize that my behavior each day resembles free will. I don’t constantly think of my actions as being predictable. I still make “choices,” but cognitively I recognize those choices as being absolutely determined by a whole host of variables – my genetic makeup, my environment, my mood, immediate social constraints, etc. And each of those variables is individually determined by a whole host of OTHER variables. And so on, and so forth…
I’m afraid I don’t quite understand the point you’re trying to make with your last paragraph. Are you trying to say that although we’re all on a predetermined path, we have some freedom within the constraints? In other words, I am destined to be a college professor, but there is some limited freedom en route to that end?
If that’s your argument, I can’t buy into that. Not only do you have to account for what things ARE determined (e.g., becoming a professor, who you marry, how many children you have), but you have to account for the things that are not (e.g., what sandwich will I eat for lunch?). How do you know which is which? Why would the universe “care” more about my future profession than what I eat for dinner?
I’m pretty sure that the universe doesn’t really give a shit. I don’t see any reason why there should be some dichotomy between determined events and events due to “free will.” But I’m all ears if someone can give me a sound argument.
Does that preclude a more complex math from making accurate predictions in the future?
Yes, it does. It is not a matter of our mathematics being insufficiently sophisticated to explain the behavior of atoms.
If, for example, you conduct an experiment to slowly send electrons one at a time through a narrow slit, you will gradually build up a diffraction patter – a wave phenomenon – on the screen behind the slit. But if you try to measure the trajectories of the individual electrons, the diffraction patter disappears and you just get a single bright spot. That’s a physically observable phenomenon, not just an inadequate mathematical model.
And Southern Quaker, that experiment blows my freaking mind. I remember when my physics professor told us about that experiment. If I remember right, I just started laughing like a lunatic.
I’m with Frank on this one. Killing is christian. Over at http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/ they are tallying up the carnage in the bible. Onward, christian soldiers.
Maybe you should consider actually reading some of those Google results instead of merely mouthing the anti-Palin talking points tattooed on the back of your hand.
On the witchcraft claim, from the Boston Herald:
I sure botched those blockquotes, you betcha’
…found “nothing unusual” about the blessing…
…America does not believe in witchcraft…
There’s “nothing unusual” about a blessing regarding witchcraft given in a country that does not believe in witchcraft (rolls eyes). Mr Olupona may be an “expert,” but certainly not in logic.
imprecatory prayer – sounds like voodoo to me. Maybe if you say it in Latin it’ll sound better. CB.