That should be the standard for all of our presidents, but at least its the standard now that Barack Obama is president.
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American President Speaks To World With Sincerity, Elegance
June 4th, 2009
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Obama has reached out and in so doing has basically, for now, played his last card. As they say, the ball is in the Muslim court.
I applaud Obama for reaching out. Now we will find out if he reached out into a vacuum.
Shouldn’t one determine whether or not “the Muslim court” is a vacuum before reaching out to it?
No SaveFarris, I think one has to make the first move, especially a ‘rookie’ President.
What would be unbearable for me as an American would be for Obama to continue reaching out to ’someone’ that:
a. Is 100% non-receptive.
b. Will continue to publicly undermine your every move.
c. Is openly hostile.
If Obama does this, he will be exposed as weak and lacking leadership skills.
Being sincere and speaking eloquently is nice, but it’s simply veneer.
What would be unbearable for me as an American would be for Obama to continue reaching out to ’someone’ that:
a. Is 100% non-receptive.
b. Will continue to publicly undermine your every move.
c. Is openly hostile.
So much for reaching out to the modern Republican party, led by Boss Limbaugh.
The great Atrios observed:
joaquin, What’s your threshold for a vacuum? Or in other words, at what point would you be willing to call Obama’s efforts a success?
GalaxyQuest:
Guy Fleegman: [frantically] “Hey! Don’t open that! It’s an alien planet! Is there air?! You don’t know!” (begins holding his breath)
Fred Kwan: [calmly sniffs the air, takes a couple panting breaths] “Seems okay.”
limulus – The word vacuum was descriptive. It’s not that difficult to figure out what was meant.
It’s impossible to define success. Sure, we can go with the peace-on-earth nonsense……………
The problem that Obama, and all well-meaning Presidents, encounter is that they try to find political/policy solutions to a problem that isn’t political. It’s religious.
Obama’s a great change from the neo Bugs Meany of the last 8 years
It’s impossible to define success.
Boy, this is weaselly. How quick will you be to define “failure,” then?
As far as reaching out to “someone,” you do realize that even in a religious environment the Muslim world isn’t monolithic, right? Obama can’t force the true zealots to like America. This speech was for the wide swath of moderates, because if we have enough of them on our side, the zealots slowly get marginalized and defanged.
the zealots slowly get marginalized and defanged
Think of it as the opposite of what Boss Limbaugh is doing to the Republican party.
SpideJ – I’m not defining anything. I’m only posting my thoughts.
Again, this is a Muslim ‘problem’ A religious problem that in my opinion doesn’t have policy/political solutions.
If you believe, as I do, that this is a religious problem, then a quick look at history will demonstrate that religious ’solutions’ have come either at the end of gun or the tip of a spear. Not very promising, eh?
To assume that one speech will bring a ‘wide swath of moderates’ to ‘our side’ is a lot of wishful thinking. But hey, I hope all your wishes come true.
BTW: When you say ‘enough of them on our side’ what side is that, Spiderj??
The side Obama spoke of in his speech, joaquin…human beings who believe in peaceful coexistence.
But you’re right. It is only your opinion that this is a strictly religious problem with no political solutions.
It’s impossible to define success.
Why couldn’t you just say, “Mission Accomplished?”
Mr Obama is cutting the right wing nuts off at the knees. They’ve been blubbering all day long about moral absolutes and the supremacy of America.
Without the support of “regular Muslims’s, the “war on terror” is a lost cause. Divide and conquer. Early days I know. Sure talk is cheap, but courage is dear. He has much of the latter, IMHO.
Barack was as usual – inspiring. As some above have said the ball is now in the other court. The FIRST real test will be the results of Iran’s election later this month. Could there be a change of government? Interesting to see.
A few points – there are 1.2 billion Muslims in the world – about 22% of all people. GIVEN those numbers and the appalling governments they get given the “Allah wills it” fatalism of their particular “delusion.” – there really arn’t that many “terrorists.” To put things in perspective during the anti-Vietnam War era in the US there were – wait for it – around 60,000 BOMBINGS in the US – by Americans aimed at various other groups of Americans.
While many Muslims support ANYONE that can put a crimp in US Imperialism (sic) – OVERWHELMINGLY Muslims DO NOT support Taliban type governments and parties. In Pakistan and Afghanistan there is VERY STRONG support for these people to be eliminated. Only the very conservative – very backward – very uneducated give meaningful support (sort of like the way the American Religious Right supports the Republican Party of NO On Everything Except Torture Party.)
Most Muslims are benign and peaceful(ish) like most Christians, Jews, etc. – what Muslims share with their fellow religions is that they are either bat shit crazy – OR – they are enablers of the bat shit crazy. Hopefully – the world can look forward to a future of people thinking not deluding.
Guys, please step back into reality.
The Obama speech was an inspiring speech, however a speech is not going to change the Muslim problems the world faces.
We have hear conciliatory, reaching-out speeches for decades and today the situation is certainly more precarious.
It’s ok to feel positive about the Obama speech, but this was not a ‘tear down this wall’ speech.
To back up joaquin’s point, let’s not forget Oliver orgasmed over Obama’s “I can no more disown…” speech, which Obama backtracked on less than a month later.
Actions, not words.
Right winger “joaquin”: “We have hear[d] conciliatory, reaching-out speeches for decades and today the situation is certainly more precarious.”
“joaquin’s” revisionist history omits Republican Bush’s Wars and Israel’s taking of Palestinian land.
In right winger “joaquin’s” world, Republican’s Iraq War Lie, which has killed at least 100,000 (a shocking number of whom were civilians), was “conciliatory, reaching-out”.
Actually, Republican’s Iraq War Lie is one of the central reasons why the situation today is more “precarious”.
An even more central reason for the ‘precariousness’ of the “situation” is that Republican President Bush allowed Israel to provoke the Arab world with Israeli fanatic’s settlements on Palestinian land.
============
1967 borders.
Dismantle all settlements.
No “right of return”.
============
It takes a fertile, or should I say delusional, imagination to think that Obama, or anyone, can snap their fingers, and remove close to 300,000 Israelis from those settlements.
LOL,
Hey News,
How about finally answering the question that if Israel followed your three often repeated instructions and was still subject to Arab aggression then what?
I predict News won’t give a straight answer.
“Freedom of religion is central to the ability of peoples to live together. We must always examine the ways in which people protect it. For instance, in the United States, rules on charitable giving have made it harder for Muslims to fulfill their religious obligation. That’s why I’m committed to work with American Muslims to ensure that they can fulfill zakat.
President Barack Hussein Obama, Cairo University, June 4, 2009
ZAKAT. Ummmm? Why is the President bringing this up? Why does he care?
Maybe you guys should look it up. AIG? Church and State?
We have hear conciliatory, reaching-out speeches for decades and today the situation is certainly more precarious.
Cite one. Obama’s speech did a better job of reaching out to Muslims as people than any speech I can think of in the past 25 years.
I’m assuming that you were equally up in arms about Bush’s “faith-based initiatives.” Obama mentioning the zakat means nothing to you, but it means a lot to his audience. It’s a relatively small grievance being addressed, which shows openness to discussion.
Farris, as I believe I mentioned to somebody here before (possibly you, o broken record), how lovely for you to live in a world where you’ve never found yourself at odds with a longtime friend and never had to come to a decision about whether or not the relationship can continue…even without the high stakes of a presidential campaign in the background.
I give you props for not repeating “OBAMA THREW HIS GRANDMA UNDER THE BUS!”
The problem that Obama, and all well-meaning Presidents, encounter is that they try to find political/policy solutions to a problem that isn’t political. It’s religious.
reluctantly, I gotta agree.
“Obama mentioning the zakat means nothing to you, but it means a lot to his audience”
It means nothing to me? Really? Actually, it means a lot.
Spiderj, anytime a politician, any politician, speaks of money, government, and religion……in the same sentence, my antenna goes up.
Ditto for the Bush initiative.
Obama mentioning the zakat means nothing to you,
Sure it does. It’s a funny sounding furrin’ word that JUST GOES TO PRoVE OBAMA IS A TERRORIST!!!!!1111!!!
Well I looked up zakat and I don’t see anything that would prohibit American muslims from fulfilling thier religious obligations as things now stand. It is possible they can’t write it off thier taxes but would that matter to the truly pious?
Unless of course we are speaking of the charitable donations made to terrorist organizations.
I would trade oceans of sincerity and elegance for a thimbleful of strength and foresight.
I would trade oceans of sincerity and elegance for a thimbleful of strength and foresight.
What the hell does that mean? Pretty collection of words, but doesn’t really say much.
It is possible they can’t write it off thier taxes but would that matter to the truly pious?
Excellent point. Let’s do away with such tax write-offs to all who give to faith-based organizations.
Unless of course we are speaking of the charitable donations made to terrorist organizations.
As I’ve seen it, the list of such organizations considered “terrorist,” much like the no-fly list, is filled with innocent names. I’m all for Obama correcting that, as well as getting somebody to work on the no-fly and persona non grata lists. It would be nice to see Abbas Kiarostami talk about his films or hear Yusuf Islam live.
I thought some one would have explained the meaning of “strength” and “foresight” to Mr Martin by now :
fore·sight (fôrst, fr-)
n.
1. Perception of the significance and nature of events before they have occurred.
2. Care in providing for the future; prudence.
strength (strngkth, strngth, strnth)
n.
1. The state, property, or quality of being strong.
* * *
5. Capacity or potential for effective action: a show of strength.
I trust that resolves your difficulties, Mr Martin
Frank,
The definitions of the words do not help when they are not arranged in a meaningful fashion, as yours were not. You attempted a metaphor that conveyed nothing, but had some stirring sounding words that appeal to macho masturbatory fantasies in people with limited analytical skills.
I’d like to buy you for what I think you’re worth, and sell you for what you think you’re worth.
Do you see how much better that works?
I just wish people who had a morsel to contribute to this thread would do so, instead of looking up and down the thread for a conservative to bash.
I realize how important it is to be dismissive of opposition as unworthy, when you have nothing to say .
Is that the point you were trying to make, Repack ?
No, Frank. I made my point in my own words. What I was trying to say was what I DID say, not what you wish I had said.
I worked as a magazine editor for ten years, and I had a book published. Apparently no one else has any trouble understanding what I write, which suggests that the communication problem lies at your end of the conversation.
As a magazine editor I was often presented with incoherent, unprofessional writing like yours, and the job was to translate it into English. That assumes that there is a useful signal buried somewhere in the noise. When the noise overwhelms the signal and no one is paying me to extract meaning, there is no reason to make the attempt.
So, in other words you insulted me for absolutely no good reason …
Good job .
Obscene right wing extremist “Frank DiSalle”, who has argued on behalf of terrorists and rapists, is now complaining that he should be treated with civility because…
…well, because when “Frank DiSalle” argues on behalf of terrorists and rapists he’s doing so with the expectation that he’s the dominant party which needs to be respected even while he’s being disrespectful.
Right Winger’s First Rule: Rules Are For Other People.
“News” Psycho Babbling, Incoherent and Misleading, Falsifier and Slanderer “Reference”
That comment was neither addressed to you, nor did it concern you.
Your opinion, in addition to being a baseless slander, was both inappropriate and unasked for .
“Newsie’s” Firs Rule: Make Sh*t Up
Right wing extremist “Frank DiSalle”, who has expressed support and encouragement for the vicious rhetoric that sowed the ground for the terrorist assassination of a Doctor and the terrorist bombings of medical clinics, is suddenly rethinking his support of free speech:
“Your opinion, in addition to being a baseless slander, was both inappropriate and unasked for .”
So now right winger “Frank DiSalle” is against free speech.
What kind of restrictions to free speech do you propose, “Frank”?
Be specific.
Would your proposed restrictions to free speech include banning your verbalized support for the violent rhetoric that encourages terrorism?
Or is your support for violent rhetoric OK but my pointing out your support for violent rhetoric not OK?
IOKIYAR? It’s OK If You’re A Right-Winger?
Right Winger’s First Rule: Rules Are For Other People.
Frank DiSalle: “Your opinion, in addition to being a baseless slander, was both inappropriate and unasked for .”
News Reference: So now right winger “Frank DiSalle” is against free speech.
Oh, please. He said your opinion was irrelevant and unwanted and you start crying “I’m being oppressed!”. Stop being a WATB. It doesn’t help your side.
“Sean ‘Purity Troll’ Martin”: “Stop being a WATB. It doesn’t help your side.”
Whose side is that, “Sean”? Not your side. Clearly.
Tell, you what, “Sean”, you suck up to and protect crazy right wing extremists like “Frank DiSalle” spout their toxic, vicious rhetoric that creates the atmosphere that gets Doctors assassinated and medical clinics bombed and I’ll make sure you get regularly recognized as an Official Competitor for the Neo-Broderite Concern Troll Prize.
You clearly win the local competition for Concern Troll here at OW and are clearly a front runner for a regional award with your persistent attacks of those that criticize right wing extremists.
you suck up to and protect crazy right wing extremists like “Frank DiSalle” spout their toxic, vicious rhetoric that creates the atmosphere that gets Doctors assassinated and medical clinics bombed
And if that were the case I’d be doing more to support the First Amendment rights which you seem so quick to claim others are taking from you than you are.