It shouldn’t surprise anyone that the assassin of Dr. Tiller was a member of Operation Rescue. Operation Rescue and their leader, Randall Terry was most recently in the news as part of the actions against the President’s speech at Notre Dame.
It was on Fox News a lot.
Dr. Tiller, as some of you may know, was a regular target of Bill O’Reilly
You’ve got to wonder: what’s next? The wingnut faction is now the driving force on the right of America’s political spectrum. They were insane before, but the election of President Obama has seemingly given them the sanction to run wild. Every day Glenn Beck explains to his viewers that Barack Obama is out to get them. Every day Rush Limbaugh feeds the paranoia of his followers, most recently equating Judge Sotomayor to a klansman, lying and saying that the lives of whites are under threat from her.
Which disciple of conservative politics will be next to erupt in violence? And who will be the media personality that pulled his or her mental trigger?
Lest we forget, it isn’t just media conservatives that egg this on:
Sen. John Cornyn said yesterday that recent examples of courthouse violence may be linked to public anger over judges who make politically charged decisions without being held accountable.
…
Cornyn continued: “I don’t know if there is a cause-and-effect connection, but we have seen some recent episodes of courthouse violence in this country. . . . And I wonder whether there may be some connection between the perception in some quarters, on some occasions, where judges are making political decisions yet are unaccountable to the public, that it builds up and builds up and builds up to the point where some people engage in, engage in violence. Certainly without any justification, but a concern that I have.”
The rhetoric encouraged from Republican conservatives like John Cornyn and Rush Limbaugh and the rest is manifesting itself in violence and violent threats:
Threats against the nation’s judges and prosecutors have sharply increased, prompting hundreds to get 24-hour protection from armed U.S. marshals. Many federal judges are altering their routes to work, installing security systems at home, shielding their addresses by paying bills at the courthouse or refraining from registering to vote. Some even pack weapons on the bench.
…
The threats and other harassing communications against federal court personnel have more than doubled in the past six years, from 592 to 1,278, according to the U.S. Marshals Service. Worried federal officials blame disgruntled defendants whose anger is fueled by the Internet; terrorism and gang cases that bring more violent offenders into federal court; frustration at the economic crisis; and the rise of the “sovereign citizen” movement — a loose collection of tax protesters, white supremacists and others who don’t respect federal authority.
Right wing terror is here, its real, and lives have been lost. How much longer should we sit here and pretend like this is an honest difference of opinions and not something far more sinister?
Let’s hope the mainstream media has the decency to call this what it was — a politically motivated act of terrorism committed by a hardcore Republican/conservative.
Somehow I doubt it.
From what I’ve been reading about Dr. Tiller, he was providing late-term abortions for women whose babies were found to have serious medical complications, many of which would lead to a short, excruciatingly painful existence, many of which would have resulted in an eventual stillbirth what would have put the mother’s life at risk.
Shame on Republicans for failing to make it clear that there’s is not the party of politically motivated violence, and that there’s no room for Operation Rescue, or drug-addicts like Rush Limbaugh screaming racist rants out onto the radio waves.
Have fun being shunned by the 80% of American known as the reality-based community. As I’ve said before, it’s quite possible that 50 years from now being known as a “Republican” will be on a par with being known as a Klan Member.
You brought it on yourselves.
It shouldn’t surprise anyone that the assassin of Dr. Tiller was a member of Operation Rescue. Operation Rescue…
Why bother with little things like trials, huh? Right now it certainly looks that way, but things have a way of turning around — remember the initial reports of Arabs being involved in Oklahoma City, or the whole Richard Jewell fiasco?
Jaim, nice hagiography there. Pity you had to fabricate most of it.
Tiller actively sought to evade Kansas law on abortions. The law said that late-term abortions (which Oliver has already said he opposed) could only be performed if either the mother’s life or health was seriously endangered, or the fetus had life-threatening defects. Tiller chose to view “short-term mental health” as a serious endangerment, and conditions such as Down Syndrome as a life-threatening defect. At, according to at least one report, $5,000 a whack.
That said, the guy deserved to have his license revoked, not be murdered, and his murderer needs to face justice.
J.
Easy to talk about “short-term mental derangement” and Down’s Syndrome as relatively trivial. I’ve read stories of women who had to choose between the medicine that keeps them sane and their pregnancies, of the 15 year old girl who’s been raped. Down’s Syndrome also comes with many physical deformities as well, and many ranges of disability from trainable to profoundly unable to feed oneself. What God/Law should force these women to carry to term just for the sake of someone’s sense of self-righteousness?
In any event, the pro-life attitude extends only until out of the womb. The 15 year old is on her own with the memories of horror and the inability to move on with her life. The parents with Down’s Syndrome run of medical insurance and racks up millions just for life-saving surgery. The mother becomes perhaps permanently mentally disabled and winds up in an institution somewhere. These same “right-to-lifers” then begin to complain about the additional taxes needed for the social safety net for both mother and child and show such love for the Government workers and social workers who have to carry the ball forward on these matters.
Jay, unlike you it sounds like Tiller was a principled professional. And while only a raging idiot would take your word for anything, here is a link to a testimony by one of Tiller’s patients:
http://www.metafilter.com/82070/Pro-Life-does-not-mean-what-you-think-it-does#2585686
I realize it doesn’t jibe with your ready-made ideological view, so feel free to ignore it. Wiser adults can get a glimpse of what kind of a doctor and person he was.
Why bother with little things like trials, huh?
Twenty words later:
Tiller actively sought to evade Kansas law on abortions.
You mean that little thing like a trial where Tiller was acquitted?
Man, you’re a loser.
Bullshit, Jaim. I’m more “pro-choice” than Oliver, who about a week ago specifically said he was against late-term abortions like Tiller specialized in.
And fine, August — how about “pushed the limits of the law.” He came close enough to convince a prosecutor and a grand jury that he was breaking the law, but a jury disagreed.
Tiller was no saint. He pushed the boundaries of the law as far as he could. He also pushed the boundaries of taste and morality — he used to hold little baptisms and other ceremonies for the aborted fetuses. (You catch that, Strowbridge?)
But he certainly did NOT deserve to be murdered, and I hope his killer — once tried and convicted — is properly punished.
J.
Sotomayor *is* a racist. You need only to read her own personal statements. And I find it mind boggling that so many here either don’t get why a lot of people would think so, just don’t care and are ok with it, or are intellectually dishonest about the whole thing. We don’t need empathy on the bench. A judge is an umpire – you interpret rules, not make them up as you go. She has shown through her own words that that might be an issue with her. I don’t get why – of all the people available for this position – he chooses the one person that is a bean-counting bigot with an axe to grind against a segment of the population. It may end up being a bad move politically if the republicans handle this right. There are plenty of white democrats that aren’t too big on the idea that a woman that thinks she has superior judgement because of her race and gender will be on the SC. This should all be brought up. It’s relevant. They ought to be careful not to attack her personally, but instead ask her to clarify these statements to all of us. I’ve heard she’s not the brightest bulb in the box either.
We will find out soon enough.
And fine, August — how about “pushed the limits of the law.” He came close enough to convince a prosecutor and a grand jury that he was breaking the law, but a jury disagreed.
Oh, so you mean he didn’t break the law. And you’re a liar. Again.
You’ve already lied once in this thread to try and smear Tiller just because of your own personal opinion of abortion, so thinking you have any right to debate the morality and ethics of Tiller only highlights how pathetic you are. Actual patients of his talk about how comforted they were by him and appreciative of some of his methods but like the coward you are, you just want to go ahead and copy/paste the latest attack points from one message board to another. You’re a sad, small person.
“but a jury disagreed”
My god you’re a dumbass, Jay. A disingenuous creep. This is the legal definition of innocence.
“he used to hold little baptisms and other ceremonies for the aborted fetuses”
That does sound strange taken out of context, but what he was doing was helping mothers and fathers deal with the loss of their children. You have no capacity for empathy, so I’ll try to paint you a picture: He was trying to create an environment where the stigma of mothers losing children due to horrible genetic defects or other conditions was mitigated somewhat. (Ever heard of anencephaly? It refers to fetuses that have no brain.) He was performing abortions on women whose own lives were at risk, or on fetuses that had no chance of survival beyond a few days of agony and misery. He encouraged the parents to take pictures of the fetuses in order to give them some sense of normalcy about the whole thing. I can’t imagine the horror of losing a child to a birth defect or complication, but from every person I’ve heard Dr. Tiller was a compassionate man, not to mention a highly competent one.
You’re a sad, sick, and twisted little man Jay. I honestly pity you.
By the way, I think we might have identified the next victim of vigilante “justice:”
http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/?p=473
You’re a sad, sick, and twisted little man Jay.
I resent that, Jaim. I WISH I was little. Our host has a few pounds on me (at least, he did the last time we met), but I’m hardly petite.
Sad? In some ways. Sick? Yeah, incurably so and it’s gonna kill me some day. Twisted? You must’ve seen the X-Rays of my back, hips, and knees.
But I’m NOT little, and I have no use for your pity — honest or not.
J.
Obviously you missed the memo, Oliver.
It’s a man-caused disaster.
Terrorism is passe.
But don’t let that stop a good demagogue. Carry on.
Right wing terror is here, its real, and lives have been lost. How much longer should we sit here and pretend like this is an honest difference of opinions and not something far more sinister?
Right wing terror has always been here. It is not a new development nor an anomalous feature in American life. Birmingham, Alabama, for example, did not acquire the monicker of “Bombingham” during the Civil Rights era solely because of the infamous 16th Street Church bombing.
Yes. Was this a man-caused disaster? Or is that only if the killer is a muslim?
Let me know.
Rupert Murdoch’s right wing media terrorists just increased their body count.
Again.
True enough, PT. And so has left-wing terror. Psychos on both sides have left their indelible stains on our nation’s history.
J.
Another funeral brought to you by Fox and Clear Channel
Just another late-term abortion.
Another religious extremist right-wing fanatic terrorist strikes again. Who could have predicted…?
who about a week ago specifically said he was against late-term abortions like Tiller specialized in
And yet, we thankfully don’t allow the killing of doctors for performing legal procedures we don’t agree with. Shocker, I know.
And for those of you pushing the empathy talking point on Judge Sotomayor, those are no longer operative thanks to the “empathy” of Justice Alito and Justice Thomas. Try again.
Looks like the word ‘terror’ is making a comeback among the liberal set. The same guys who think nukes in the hands of a madman is no big deal and anyone who is frightened at the notion is a weenie.
Maybe if Kim Jong-il let it slip that he occasionally listens to Bill O’Reilly and Glenn Beck, liberals would take the threat of North Korean or Iranian nuclear capability a little more seriously.
Here’s hoping Sec. Sebelius never travels without an entourage. A quick reading of Free Republic reveals an alarming level of winger rage against her also.
I wait in breathless anticipation for suggestions as to what we might do about this “right wing terrorism”.
Heh.
I wait in breathless anticipation for suggestions as to what we might do about this “right wing terrorism”.
Um, invade Iraq?
ED and Oliver : Can you say “Reichstag fire”?
Sure you can!
I wait in breathless anticipation for suggestions as to what we might do about this “right wing terrorism”.
Apprehend the perpetrator. A method that was overlooked in the last eight years, especially to assholes with no perspective at all.
A whole bunch of right wing terrorists running around committing crimes, and no one attempted to arrest them?
Perhaps you might name one or two … ?
So Frank’s theory (implied in his bringing up the Reichstag fire) is that choice advocates murdered Tiller themselves.
Insightful.
ED and Oliver : Can you say “Reichstag fire”?
Wow, that’s some awesome crazy, Frank!
Dennis, Jay Tea, you can stop now. We have a winner.
No Parthenon .. The theory is that by using one isolated incident as an indicator of something , you can bring about some hideous hijacking of our liberty.
Hence, the unceasing attack on Rush Limbaugh, as if he is an officeholder, whose influence extends beyond the speakers in your radio.
sorry
Tiller is now a martyr. There is going to be a backlash.
I wonder what it will consist of.
Frank, Dennis, Yo, any suggestions as to how we can prevent nutcases from assassinating people who perform legal acts that they don’t agree with?
Why is it that left-wing “terrorists” are primarily vandals, while right-wing terrorists are usually murderers? Does anyone see a difference, or is vandalism = murder?
Once again, I repeat: Calling me crazy says more about you than it does about me .
Once again, I repeat: Calling me crazy says more about you than it does about me.
And please keep repeating it. It makes you sound so much less crazy.
So between Jay Tea and Frank we can see the emerging conservative response: “We are the real victims!”
How awesome.
fafaroo: You can be as simple – minded a you wish. Don’t try to hang it on me. I have no sympathy whatever for an abortionist, but I would prefer he lived long enough to perhaps one day develop a conscience and feel some remorse for what he has done.
Instead, he has been express mailed to hell, which provides me with no satisfaction. I would hate to see his death used as a springboard for continuing attacks on pro-life advocates who are sincerely concerned with the blatant disrespect for life exhibited by the pro – abortion advocates.
When the day comes that a woman gives birth to a lego, a ping paddle or a locomotive , I will then believe that an abortion does not prevent the birth of a child that has as much right to live as that doctor.
This –
Instead, he has been express mailed to hell
sort of contradicts this –
Calling me crazy says more about you than it does about me.
Yeah, Parthenon, believing in Hell is crazy, too…
And, waiting in the wings for the assignation “crazy”:
Not being a Democrat
Not being a Liberal
Not voting for Obama
Where will we keep them all ?
Hmmmm ?
believing in Hell is crazy
We finally agree on something.
I would hate to see his death used as a springboard for continuing attacks on pro-life advocates who are sincerely concerned with the blatant disrespect for life exhibited by the pro – abortion advocates.
Uh, Frank, how many of those “attacks” on pro-life advocates involve gunning them down in cold blood?
Would you care to describe these horrible “continuing attacks” that the pro-life movement must endure, just as Christ carried the cross, at the hands of mean baby-killers?
“the unceasing attack on Rush Limbaugh, as if he is an officeholder..”
Yeah cause you know guys like Mike Costello and Vito Genovese weren’t elected officials and they have zero sway over inciting violence. Please stop with this “oh but he isn’t an elected official, so how could he have any power” naivety! You must think Rush is doing his “comedy” routine right Frank?
White Whale : I don’t listen to him. I guess that means I am free from his Svengali – like ability to make me kill people ?
Repack Rider is apparently unfamiliar with Pascal’s Wager.
Who’s Mike Costello? Lou’s brother?
Vito Genovese has been dead for a while — and he neither incited violence nor did he influence people to commit violent acts. He ordered subordinates to commit crimes.
Putting pro-life activists on terror watch lists doesn’t make them terrorists. Calling people who oppose abortion is not what I would call outreach.
Personally, I find the casual use of the word “crazy”, to describe people you disagree with politically, a rather foreboding sign. It implies that the people you disagree with are somehow less than you. That is a slippery slope that leads to barbed wire.
Believing in Hell is crazy, Frank. Believing in Heaven is too. Any belief that doesn’t have a foundation in reality is fucking batshit crazy. Just because a lot of people share your madness does not mean it is not madness.
But anyway, back on topic – Frank, you are a sick, twisted fuck of a human being. Most all the cons on this board – you are too. What the hell is wrong with you guys?
Tea, you decide that you can vilify Tiller because he stood trial… and was found INNOCENT. “Pushing the limits of the law…” What a crock of shit. What a stupid position to take. One of the stupider things I have seen you write around here, which is saying a lot.
Hedley, your joke was in poor taste.
Dennis, stop with your idiotic strategy of deflection. “Hey, look over there!” What the fuck does North Korea have to do with Tiller? Answer: Nothing.
Anyone want to answer Repack? There don’t seem to be a whole lot of left-wing murderers around, does there?
Putting pro-life activists on terror watch lists doesn’t make them terrorists.
Yeah, killing abortion doctors does.
And Frank, I don’t think people I simply disagree with are crazy, I think people who write crazy shit like this: “It implies that the people you disagree with are somehow less than you. That is a slippery slope that leads to barbed wire.” are crazy.
BAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHA! Frank brings up Pascal’s Wager! That is too priceless, Frank! Holy shit, you are a dumb motherfucker. Unfortunately for you, I am familiar with Pascal’s Wager (and I bet that Repack is too).
Pascal’s Wager does not say SHIT about the likelihood of God existing. The logic of the Wager is mostly sound… if you concede that the probability of God and the probability of no-God are equal. However, I do not concede that premise. I’ll put the odds of the Christian God existing at about 1 in 999 quadrillion. The only reason that the odds aren’t longer, in my eyes, is because I don’t know what follows “quadrillion”.
Being that that’s the case, I will gladly and comfortably sleep in on Sunday mornings, have premarital sex, eat shellfish and pork, blaspheme when I feel like it, and support doctors like Tiller who provide essential medical services to women.
You’re a fucking loon, Frank.
nor did he influence- A mob underboss has no “influence”LMAO! You are a piece of work. Same way Carlos Marcello had no influence in New Orleans or on politicians?
Putting pro-life activists on terror watch lists doesn’t make them terrorists-
Of course this guy was already previously arrested for having bomb materials and an expressed view of killing abortion doctors. So I guess its only fair to put them on the list when they have already bombed a clinic, right? Its a “watch” list not a most wanted list.
Mambochicken 23: It is fortunate for all us that you are so unrepresentative of every one here.
You are a joke.
You are the new Frameone: remember him? Only you contribute less to this blog than he ever did.
As for my being a “motherfucker”, send me your mother’s picture , so I can be sure .
I never said Pascal’s Wager proved Hell existed you microcephalic delinquent !
I implied that I was betting that it existed. But, of course, choking on bile must have cut off the circulation of blood to your miniscule brain.
And you, Mambochicken, will not go to Hell for sleeping on Sunday. You will go to Hell because, apparently, you have devoted your life to being an angry asshole.
Stay klassee, modern Republican party.
As for my being a “motherfucker”, send me your mother’s picture , so I can be sure .
Mambochicken, no offense whatsoever to your mom, at all, but just as a generic comeback that right there were funny.
Wow, this thread took a predictably ugly turn.
Newsflash: 2 military recruiters in uniform shot at recruiting office in Little Rock, AR.
Hmm…….
Dare I say it?
True enough, PT. And so has left-wing terror. Psychos on both sides have left their indelible stains on our nation’s history.
Please enumerate the “indelible stains left on our nation’s history” by left wing bombers or terrorists as opposed to the stains left by right wingers? I cannot recall any bombing incidents in the 19th or 20th Centuries carried out by left wingers that compares, for example, with the bombing of the federal office building in Oklahoma. This is just, BTW, for starters.
Dare I say it?
I’ll [virtually] say it for you: Look, over there!
No need to thank me.
Mambochicken, no offense whatsoever to your mom, at all, but just as a generic comeback that right there were funny…
…if you’re 12 years old.
“Late-term abortion doctor George Tiller was gunned down at his church in Kansas Sunday morning in a thoroughly evil, cold-blooded act of domestic terrorism. Yes, terrorism. Not ‘extremism,’” – Michelle Malkin.
Can’t believe it but Malkin seems to agree.
This isn’t surprising. RIghtwing talking heads repeatedly make references to abortion doctors as murderers. And as usual, the suspect is a single white man in his 50s, the perfect target audience for right wing radio; single, bitter, angry, not very smart who believes everything he hears from his enablers. Of course Dildo O Reilly will pretend he had nothing to do with this at all.
Why are all the most rabid anti-abortion types exclusively men? Because they are typical right wing losers who need guns to compensate for their inability to have sex on a regular basis. Fucking losers. They want control over womens sex lives, because deep down they are all inferior repressed weaklings.
Time to arrest Randall Terry and bust up Operation Rescue once and for all. Charge them all with domestic terrorism.
And to think the wingnuts were all screaming and crying two months ago when the DHS report came out.
Let’s see:
Doctors who perform or might perform abortions are killers, and thus should be killed to prevent future loss of life.
So:
People who kill or might kill doctors are killers, and thus should be killed to prevent future loss of life.
Does that sound about right?
Not surprising, not a word of the loss to the victims family.
Vitriolic insults of the dead.
Defense by way of diminishing the crime, via demonizing the victim.
This is who they are.
My thoughts are with the victims family on this day of horrid grief.
Klassy, cons klassy and normal.
Burn says our culprit (and what happened to “alleged”?) is “single, bitter, angry, not very smart who believes everything he hears from his enablers” .. and, he is a “typical right wing loser who need[s] guns to compensate for their inability to have sex on a regular basis… They want control over women’s sex lives, because deep down they are all inferior repressed weaklings.”
The inescapable conclusion of Dr. Burn, the criminal pofiler?
“Time to arrest Randall Terry and bust up Operation Rescue once and for all. Charge them all with domestic terrorism.”
Perhaps we should talk to Mr. Putin about re-opening the Gulag?
What a pity all the Internment Camps were done away with… We could have locked up the 50% plus of Americans that oppose abortion.
Ed: But calling someone a dumb motherfucker is a legitimate contribution to intelligent debate?
Frank – I never said that you said that Pascal’s Wager “proved” Hell exists, either. Dumbass. What I’m saying is that the Wager does not say one thing about the probability of God, Heaven, Hell, etc. existing. If the assumption is that the the two sides are equiprobable, then yes, I would be a fool to be a nonbeliever. However, considering the odds seem much, much longer than that against your beliefs, then it appears that YOU are the foolish one. As though that wasn’t blatantly obvious already. Idiot. If you’re basing your belief (or “betting” on it) in Heaven and Hell on Pascal’s Wager, then you’re an idiot, plain and simple.
I didn’t know that you could be sent to Hell for being an angry asshole. I must have missed that commandment. Oh noes!!11!ONE!!!11!1!
Frank: “You are a joke.”
You’re projecting again, Frankie.
Dennis: “Mambochicken, no offense whatsoever to your mom, at all, but just as a generic comeback that right there were funny”
Dennis, you’re kinda right, in that it’s the funniest thing that Frank ever has said on this blog. Which isn’t saying much at all. Also, as I understand it, Frank would be much more interested in my father than my mother. There was a thread about that some time ago… so the joke kinda falls flat on that basis too.
Grumpyman, the vitriol from the left started immediately after the shooting was announced. If that’s the model for class you think we should emulate, I for one will take a pass.
I love it. The wingnuts are defending this coward who shot a man in a church, because wingnut men are SO tough like that.
Hardly surprising, as they are all just like him probably. Single, bitter, impotent baby boomer losers who cannot get a woman and of little accomplishments in life, yet they spend all their time worrying about what other people do with their lives. That’s the typical Rush Limbaugh listener, always trying to blame their own failures in life on someone else.
Hey wingnuts, remind me again of all your outrage over the DHS report a few months ago, that pretty much summed this situation up to a T? Tell us again how mad you are, and how unfair that report was.
You own this one, wingnuts. He’s all yours. Go ahead and make him your hero. It just further proves these people are dangerous, violent and unpredictable and need to be dealt with appropriately.
No one is defending him, Burn. Pointing out that the folly of many of the statements here and on other left-wing blogs regarding this vile act is not defending what this guy did. I know that is a hard concept for you to grasp, but please try to employ some of that reality-based open-mindedness liberals claim to have the market cornered on.
Klassy, cons klassy and normal.
Oh right. I forgot just how classy it was before the guy was even buried to start blaming religious conservatives and Bill O’Reilly.
Can’t believe it but Malkin seems to agree.
What’s so difficult to believe? That 99.99999% of people who are pro-life, conservative, etc. strongly condemn what that man did in no uncertain terms? You’re surprised because you and others like you (especially in the comments section here which has morphed into a “Let’s see what kind of bile we can throw at conservatives today” party) seem to think for some reason that we condone such actions and because we protest against people like Tiller and what they do that somehow we’re responsible for the actions of some violent dirtbag. It’s IDIOCY. Plan and simple.
You have Oliver, writing STUPID shit like:
“The rhetoric encouraged from Republican conservatives like John Cornyn and Rush Limbaugh and the rest is manifesting itself in violence and violent threats:”
Which links to an article that doesn’t give justification to what he wrote in any way! The article goes on to show that violence and threats of violence against judges comes from a variety of sources including gang members, traffic offenses, rape suspects, drug dealers and even those involved in divorce proceedings. There’s even a mention of a Judge seeing his image on the Internet with rifle crosshairs on it after he made an environmental ruling. They didn’t give details, but who wants to bet that it was some nutcase environmentalist who was pissed off a ruling didn’t go his/her way? Yet somehow, it’s all Rush Limbaugh’s fault.
It’s a shame. This blog and the comments have become a bastard child of Kos kooks and Atrios comment section sewage.
Randall Terry needs to be arrested and charged with aiding this murderer as he is a sick, dangerous man who needs to be locked up forever. Operation Rescue is a terrorist organization, and this guy had been working for them for years. This isn’t some isolated incident, attacks on clinics have been ongoing for decades, always committed by white, uptight, right wing losers.
Hey wingnuts, tell me again how unfair that DHS report was? Remember all you were crying like girls about it two months ago, remember all that? Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! Janet Napoltano is being unfair, Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
Turns out it was dead-on 100% accurate.
Oh well, just another sign that the entire right wing movement is a dangerous cult composed of idiots who think shooting people in churches is ok. And they all think they are the best christians around town too.
I cannot wait to see what Dildo O Reilly says tonight. Of course he won’t act like he had ANYTHING to do with this at all, no sir. Gotta love the wingnuts, they harp about personal responsibility, until their words end up getting someone killed.
Grumpyman, the vitriol from the left started immediately after the shooting was announced.
Indeed. If this incident has taught Real Americans anything, it’s that The Left has a vile tendency to overact to terrorism. Shame on them. Thanks for pointing this out Dennis. Kudos to you.
Hey Jay, how many doctors have been shot and killed in the last 15 years by left wing loonies? How many tree hugging granola eaters have shot people inside of churches? How many liberals bomb abortion clinics?
Dickheads like O Reilly can blather on all day long about people like Tiller, calling him a murderer and a killer, and his weak-minded minions sit with their fat heads pressed up against the radio, nodding along in agreement with every word, because that is what wingnuts do is obey authority without questioning it. So of course it was a matter of time until one of those mindless zombies heard what O Reilly says and it helped pushed him over the edge to act on his violent fantasies.
Wingnuts are dangerous, armed, unpredictable and something needs to be done about them because this will happen again.
Eric Holder has to now put armed guards outside clinics. Gee, thanks wingnuts.
Dennis,
I’m just want to ask is that a defense of murder by way of, yeah well you guys…..?”
Or did you miss my point entirely?
Repack Rider is apparently unfamiliar with Pascal’s Wager.
Of course I’m familiar with it. It’s a false dichotomy, which is the bread and butter of conservative argument.
Do you ACCEPT the false dichotomy of Pascal’s Wager?
So Jay Tea are you now saying that words do not have consequences?
Do you expect me to share in your opinion that the vitriolic rhetoric on of cons had nothing to do with this murder?
Well the only way that is going to happen is if you water board me.
Oh yeah I forgot that is only to get brown people to tell the truth.
You do not have to lift a finger to incite a riot. (Proof can be found in most muni codes)
The same can be said for murder. (Proof can be found in the Rwandan genocide.)
And thanks for proving my point. “Yeah well you guys …” is not an excuse for blaming the victim. It is low, vile, inhuman and to do it to defend an ideological point of view is evil. But that is just MHO.
Classy cons what would we do with out em?
It’s a shame. This blog and the comments have become a bastard child of Kos kooks and Atrios comment section sewage.
Right you are, Jay. Good people like yourself should steer clear.
by using one isolated incident as an indicator of something , you can bring about some hideous hijacking of our liberty.
You mean like Bush did after 9/11?
And Jay, if your side quit echoing and agreeing with violent extremists I would have less fodder when I make these arguments. Conservatives, quit killing people and we can talk rationally.
And so has left-wing terror. Psychos on both sides have left their indelible stains on our nation’s history.
I see you are hiding from my question, so here it is again.
Haw many people have “left-wing terror[ists]” killed in the last 20 years? How many have right-wing terrorists killed? I think you have to group the 9/11 terrorists with the “conservative” side, don’t you? They were hardly “liberals.”
Aren’t “left-wing terrorists” primarily vandals who damage property? Aren’t right-wing terrorists people who hurt and kill other people?
You won’t answer, because there is no good answer from your side on this. Your false dichotomy is exposed.
” … The Pro-Life Action League was shocked and dismayed to learn that late-term abortionist George Tiller was shot and killed while at chuch in Wichita, Kansas on Sunday, May 31. In a press statement, League National Director Joe Scheidler condemned the murder and declared that we must seek to convert abortionists like Tiller.
“We don’t know yet what motivated the killer,” said Scheidler, “but any act of violence in the name of protecting the lives of unborn children is a betrayal of the pro-life movement, which proclaims the sanctity of all human life.”
* * *
The League is now bracing for the onslaught of accusations—already beginning—that the pro-life movement is responsible for Tiller’s murder. Nothing could be further form the truth. “Those who resort to such acts of violence have always had little or no connection with the pro-life movement,” Scheidler remarked. “They lack the faith and courage it takes to fight abortion effectively.”
Frank DiSalle,
“that the pro-life movement is responsible for Tiller’s murder. Nothing could be further form the truth.”
Are you really saying that these murders< assassinations of OBGYNs and the bombing of medical clinics are the work of Pro-choice people?
Last time, forgive me if I’m wrong, I thought it was done by people with anti-choice views.
Please correct me, if I was misinformed.
I will not hold my breath. Cons don’t seem to respond to questions.
Repack,
If this is primarily a left/right pissing contest at what point do we bring in killers who become political celebrity causes like Tookie Williams etc. etc. etc.
And as we attack Bill O Rielly what do we have to say about Al Sharpton who has blood on his hands.
Ha! “Nothing could be further from the truth.” Right… as though calling doctors, performing legal medical procedures on women, baby killers has nothing to do with this. Right.
You’re priceless, Frank.
Nice quote Frank…”We dont know what motivated the killer…”
I call BULLSHIT in all caps on that. What a bunch of shameless fucking LIARS! They know goddamn good and well what motivated this asshole who killed Dr Tiller. He was ‘defending the unborn’, a common rallying cry amongst the wingnuts.
The shooter was stalking Dr Tiller in the weeks leading up to the shooting, and he even wrote about it!
Really, Frank, you are one craven, despicable asshole for trying to defend this guy.
The blowback on the wingnuts will be hardcore but of course like the chickenshit cowards they are, they will ALL pretend that they had nothing to do with this one bit.
Start with arresting Randall Terry, I bet he knew about it.
If this is primarily a left/right pissing contest at what point do we bring in killers who become political celebrity causes like Tookie Williams etc. etc. etc.
It’s my understanding that Mr. Williams was convicted of murder and executed, despite pleas for mercy from members of the public. Please explain to me what it is that you disagree with about his fate, because if you had a point, it isn’t obvious.
And as we attack Bill O Rielly what do we have to say about Al Sharpton who has blood on his hands.
You can attack Bill O’Reilly all you want. But I haven’t, so when you say, “[W]e attack Bill O’Reilly,” apparently you are referring only to yourself and your internal parasites. Why would you suggest that I have joined you in attacking Mr. O’Reilly? Do you have a quote?
Are you referring to Tawana Brawley when you imply that Sharpton has blood on his hands? That was 22 year ago, so you’ll have to refresh me as to Reverend Sharpton’s calls for violence and to whom it was to be directed, and then who was killed as a result.
I hope you are all enjoying the name calling … I am singularly unimpressed.
I present you with a quotation from a major Pro – Life organization denouncing the killer and his act, and I end up vilified.
If you are awaiting some sort of evidence from me that I am sorry the Doctor is dead, please hold your breath while you wait.
The killer will no doubt get his just desserts – after all, he didn’t shoot a policeman or a bank guard. Do I feel sorry for either of them? Nope.
And, where, in anything I have said, is there a defense of the killer?
Further, if I did defend the killer – which, of course, I have not — how does that make me craven and despicable?
Whatever compassion I may have for women who feel compelled to have abortions, I have no such compassion for a man who performs said abortions.
Why not say that since we can sympathize with substance abusers, we should, therefore, feel sympathy for drug dealers?
NO ONE is saying Tiller’s assassination was NOT an act of terrorism. At least, no one here. It fits every criteria — violence for a political end, to further a political goal, to terrorize the people on the other side.
The argument is whether we go after those who agreed with the assassin’s motivation to some degree, but had no foreknowledge of him, his plans, his intentions, or his actions. Who never conspired with him in his plot.
America has NEVER stood for punishing “thought crimes” — until these stupid “hate crime” laws came along. You had to take some kind of conscious act to be convicted of a crime.
No more. For simply speaking your mind, expressing opinions, you, too, can be held responsible for the actions of some psycho who you never heard of.
Now we know what the “O” in “O, Brave New World” stands for.
J.
Frank, please. Terrorist groups have performed that two-step for decades. Inspire a man to murder innocent people with your rhetoric of genocide and crimes against humanity, and then pretend you don’t support the logical conclusion of that rhetoric.
You have no sympathy for this man? None of us have any sympathy for you and your apologetics for terrorism.
Frank DiSalle,
At, June 1, 2009 at 4:41 pm, you posted some words. In them I assume is an answer to my question but I did not see it.
Fine as is your right. (as I said I would not hold my breath>)
Are you directing your statement of “I hope you are all enjoying the name calling…” at me?
Oh , yeah, Mambochicken…
Are you implying I’m gay ? (“Frank would be much more interested in my father than my mother.”)
And I called you an asshole? You give assholes a bad name!
If ignorance were people, you’d be Red China…
And for the something completely paranoid …
Be warned, Jay Tea, Frank, Dennis et al, Obama has already signed the secret executive order to round you all up and herd you into DHS built and run camps.
Yes, you will now all get your much longed for Red Dawn moment: “Avenge me, Glenn Beck! Avenge Me!”
Jay Tea,
“Thought” has nothing to do with hate crimes laws.
From my understanding “Hate Crimes Laws” has to do with the federal LEO’s investigating and prosecuting crimes when local LEO’s decline to do so when the crime has a religious, ethnic or gender bias with in them.
Unless I’m way off mark, if so please provide me with a link.
(From a reputable source please. Your con sites really hold no interest or creditability for me.) I would not want to be uninformed.
Peace Be With you.
Repack, I bet he’s talking about Freddie’s Fashion Mart.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Sharpton#Freddie.27s_Fashion_Mart
J.
For simply speaking your mind, expressing opinions, you, too, can be held responsible for the actions of some psycho who you never heard of.
Please define the consequences of being “held responsible” in your context. Do you mean that people might say bad stuff about you, or that you might go to prison? Because people say bad stuff about me all the time, and I don’t mind as long as I don’t go to prison.
Tiller, on the other hand, was “held responsible” by a crazy with a gun because he did something that was every bit as legal as O’Reilly’s hate filled speech.
Are you suggesting that Mr. O’Reilly is in some way being “held responsible” in the same sense that Tiller was? Because Tiller is DEAD, and O’Reilly is still making lots of money with a message of intolerance.
Preemptive disclaimer. I do not hold Mr. O’Reilly responsible for Tiller’s death in any sense. It’s YOUR claim that he is being “held responsible” in some fashion that does not cost him any money or inconvenience him in any way, and that is somehow equivalent to Tiller being murdered.
I have no sympathy whatever for an abortionist,
No empathy either, I see.
he has been express mailed to hell, which provides me with no satisfaction.
Bullshit.
And, waiting in the wings for the assignation “crazy”:
Not being a Democrat
Not being a Liberal
Not voting for Obama
Where will we keep them all ?
Hmmmm ?
Oooooh, oooooh, I know!
Clinton-era concentratin’ camps in the Rockies and Alaska?
No, that’s not a typo.
You mean like Bush did after 9/11?
And just like Obama is now doing following the US economy meltdown.
Are you enjoying your $546,668 debt, Oliver?
Are you enjoying your $546,668 debt, Oliver?
I can’t speak for OW, but I’m especially enjoying the $250K of that debt rolled up while Mr. Bush was practicing his special brand of fiscal conservatism.
You must have, Quaker, because you voted for the guy who more than doubled it within a few months.
If you like it so much, you want my share? I’ll even toss in my “tax cut” Obama promised me.
J.
Jay Tea,
“Thought” has nothing to do with hate crimes laws.
From my understanding “Hate Crimes Laws” has to do with the federal LEO’s investigating and prosecuting crimes when local LEO’s decline to do so when the crime has a religious, ethnic or gender bias with in them.
Unless I’m way off mark, if so please provide me with a link.
(From a reputable source please. Your con sites really hold no interest or creditability for me.) I would not want to be uninformed.
Peace Be With you.
You must have, Quaker, because you voted for the guy who more than doubled it within a few months.
Sorry to break it to you Mr. Tea. Your math is off. Adding $50K to $250K is not “doubling.”
Won’t you ever learn to check your facts before you spout?
Conservatives, quit killing people and we can talk rationally.
“Conservatives” aren’t killing anybody Oliver.
Asshole.
LEFT WING ANTI-WAR TERROR!
Thanks Obama! Thanks Kos! Thanks left wingers! Thanks Oliver!
This is what we get after years of liberals calling our troops torturers, rapists and criminals and that saying the war and interrogations we performed were racist.
Good work!
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,523860,00.html?test=latestnews
Wow. That was easy. Easy to act like asshat liberals here like Oliver, Repack, Fafaroo, Mambochickenshit, etc.
Enjoy your cesspool losers.
Perhaps you might name one or two … ?
Frank DiSalle?
The League is now bracing for the onslaught of accusations—already beginning—that the pro-life movement is responsible for Tiller’s murder. Nothing could be further form the truth. “Those who resort to such acts of violence have always had little or no connection with the pro-life movement,” Scheidler remarked. “They lack the faith and courage it takes to fight abortion effectively.”
The KKK holds similar stances. It’s to prevent them from being cracked down on by the fed.
If you are awaiting some sort of evidence from me that I am sorry the Doctor is dead, please hold your breath while you wait.
So you would feel fine if I told you that you didn’t deserve to live, either? This is the crux of the issue, you SAY the murder was bad, but you just admitted you are glad it was done.
By the way, you never answered my other earlier question. What do you think the penalties for having an abortion should be if made illegal?
Jay Caruso: “This is what we get after years of liberals calling our troops torturers, rapists and criminals and that saying the war and interrogations we performed were racist.”
So you have clips and quotes from TV and radio that are comparable to what O’Reilly said? Right? This isn’t just more false equivalency, right?
Jay? You still here?
Um…bastard child? Sewer? Weren’t you too disgusted for words just an hour or two ago?
Jay, I’d prefer not to believe that conservative media rhetoric contributes to this sort of thing, as I imagine many other cesspool denizens would not. What exactly are you claiming? That Tiller’s murder was random, that it would have happened irrespective of his face being plastered all over the con media as a murderer/nazi/spawn of satan?
Why do you think this guy killed him? Had Tiller not been a conservative boogeyman, do you believe he’d still be dead right now?
Jay: “Easy to act like asshat liberals here like Oliver, Repack, Fafaroo, Mambochickenshit, etc.”
Hey Jay, how about you go sit on a parking cone? But maybe first, you could tell me where I am blaming O’Reilly or anyone else besides the killer for this crime? That would be lovely if you could pull a quote for me. Thanks in advance.
For the record, there is a middle ground that exists here – I personally do not blame this murder on O’Reilly or any other Fox News clown – the killer himself is culpable. Labeling O’Reilly as an accessory to murder is unreasonable. However, it is not reasonable nor logical to wave away words, spoken from a position of authority, as being completely unrelated to acts like these. Anyone remember the Asch conformity experiments? Or (I forget the researcher) the study that demonstrates that people will administer high levels of electric shock to an innocent human being by being ordered to from a authoritative voice? So, I guess my position is that I wish that O’Reilly and others would be more careful with their words- but then, they probably wouldn’t have television shows, would they?
Jay, I’d also like to know why I got a nickname! What did I do to get such an honor from you? Thanks for that, as well.
Frank, I seem to recall that there was a discussion on this board about you being registered on a gay hookup site. I also seem to recall a particularly unflattering picture of yourself on this site. Of course, perhaps that’s just the best one you have. You’re not photogenic, Frank.
Frank: “If ignorance were people, you’d be Red China…”
What? Hahaha, this is the best you can do? How weird and idiotic. So apparently, you’re ugly AND stupid. You’ve got everything the ladies (and men) want!
Quaker, actually, I was having a rather pleasant chat with… no, you’d never believe me.
But let’s look at those numbers again — the ones you’re calling me stupid over.
First up:
Are you enjoying your $546,668 debt, Oliver?
Five hundred six thousand, six hundred eighty-eight. A smidgen over half a million.
Then you responded:
I can’t speak for OW, but I’m especially enjoying the $250K of that debt rolled up while Mr. Bush was practicing his special brand of fiscal conservatism.
Two hundred fifty thousand. Somewhat less than half of 546,688.
I felt like chiming in:
You must have, Quaker, because you voted for the guy who more than doubled it within a few months.
You cited 250,000. I said “more than doubled.” That means over 500,000. 546,688 is a little more than double 250,000.
For some reason, you misplaced a zero (probably mistook it for IQ) and replied with:
Sorry to break it to you Mr. Tea. Your math is off. Adding $50K to $250K is not “doubling.”
You’re quite right. It’s adding 20%. But where did you get that 50K number? I’d say you pulled it out of your ass, but your head would have been in the way.
The number was not 50,000, but 546,688. You were off by a factor of almost ELEVEN.
Perhaps, my dear Quaker, you ought to check your own math before you spout off.
J.
America has realized that the Republican Party is the party of terrorism, and will continue to be so with its insane ideological bias against decency.
Grumpy, here’s the FBI’s definition:
A hate crime, also known as a bias crime, is a criminal offense committed against a person, property, or society that is motivated, in whole or in part, by the offender’s bias against a race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, or ethnicity/national origin.
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/hate_crime/index.html
Here’s my favorite example: George W. Bush was blasted when, as governor of Texas, he vetoed a hate crime law inspired by the murder of James Bird. (Bird was the black man who was dragged to his death behind a pickup.) Bush’s argument was that we didn’t need new laws; existing laws were sufficient.
In the Bird case, three men were involved. Three men were convicted. One of them turned state’s evidence, and was sentenced to life without parole. The other two were sentenced to death.
In that case, what more would categorizing Bird’s murder as a “hate crime” accomplish?
And note that in that case, it was a proposed Texas state law that was involved, not a federal law.
That answer your question, Grumpy?
J.
Jaim, a little friendly advice.
Look up “self-fulfilling prophesy.”
Then look up the percentage of Republicans who are gun owners.
Then do the math on how many people that actually is.
You better pray you’re wrong, or you’re dead.
I’m not worried, though, because I know you’re full of shit.
J.
This is what we get after years of liberals calling our troops torturers, rapists and criminals and that saying the war and interrogations we performed were racist.
Let me say first, JT, that I am an Army veteran and you are a chickenhawk who would wet your pants if you heard gunfire. I’m 63 years old and I can still kick your ass. Those victims were my brothers in arms, but just some soldiers to you.
I know that some members of the US military tortured people. I know that some raped people. I know that some murdered Iraqis in cold blood. You give people a weapon and make it clear there are no consequences for using it, and that is what will happen. Keep in mind that because you chose not to serve, some kid with a police record has taken your place. because the Army had to lower its standards due to the difficulty of finding willing cannon fodder.
That doesn’t make everyone in the military a criminal. The criminal is the man who sent them there with no mission, no end in sight, and no hope for a normal life for the rest of their days. You apparently do not understand the price society will pay for the PTSD now being cultivated. There is a price for the hopelessness that sets in when you have no way of knowing when you will be done or even what being “done” will look like.
Second, we know nothing of the shooter’s motives except what a police officer speculated, so your gloating is premature.
Let me ask you this. There’s a guy in an SUV with an assault weapon. If you had to guess, would you peg him for a tree-hugging liberal, or a conservative fan of the Second Amendment?
If I had to guess a motive, I’d say he is a vet who was sold a bill of goods by the recruiters and served five deployments, which left him with untreated PTSD.
We’ll find out soon enough.
“Jay” is the anti-Christian right wing extremist who obscures our Constitution with his false idol the GUN.
“Jay” is bearing false witness against liberals. Again.
“Jay”, “liberals” never made the claims you claim and you know it.
You are a liar, “Jay”.
Worse, “Jay”, you are the kind of right wing militant extremist that encourages people to use your false god the GUN as their final solution.
Your fellow right wing disciples of hate repeatedly made Doctor Tiller a target.
Your fellow right wing disciples of hate have repeatedly sought war and violence as the only solution.
Repack,
Sorry for not being more obvious, I meant are we all going to try and stack up killers for either side of the political divide. Then see which side has more blood on it’s hands. Its all kind of silly.
I mean look at this post:
“America has realized that the Republican Party is the party of terrorism, and will continue to be so with its insane ideological bias against decency.”
I mean really read that and think of the small twisted mind that crafted such dribble. Are we to believe that 1/3 of the electorate belongs to a terrorist political party? That is absurd.
By the way if we are keeping score I noticed that a young black man from Little Rock, a recent convert to the religion of peace, just killed an American soldier at a recruiting station. Another homegrown left wing terrorist strikes again.
Not as effective as the sniper team that haunted the east coast some years back but similar ideology. Maybe Ollie will do a post on left wing terrorism and the people who support that through thier hatefilled rhetoric etc. etc. etc.
Repack, let me answer your comments to me in no particular order:
I’ve heard gunfire. It made me jump. It didn’t make me lose control of bodily functions, but it did startle me.
If you’re in decent shape, even if you’re 63, you probably could kick my ass. I’m woefully out of shape and have numerous medical conditions, including one incurable one that will likely kill me.
Finally, I DIDN’T SAY WHAT YOU’RE RESPONDING TO, YOU MORON. I always list my name as “Jay Tea,” I sign with a “J.,” and I don’t have an icon. You’re mad at “Jay” with no signature and a Yankees icon.
Sigh…
J.
Right winger “Jay Tea”, who claims to work for the discredited extremist fringe publication Commentary Magazine, continues to discredit the right wing and the neo-con-artists that have been manipulating the Republican Party for decades.
Today right winger “Jay Tea” has allied himself with terrorists.
Previously “Jay Tea” has argued for torture and war crimes.
“Jay Tea” is the monster he claims his neo-con-artist rhetoric would protect US from.
He also represents what animates the heart of the Republican Party.
Sometimes I wake up in the middle of the night, sweating, in stark terror.
I have just had a nightmare that “Newsy” actually believes his own bullshit.
Nobody could be that nuts.
J.
So, Repack, does threatening to kick my ass make you feel better? Like more of a man? that somehow, you, at 63, being able to beat up a very out-of-shape, sick guy 20 years your younger? Do you have some insecurities about your masculinity, your prowess, your fitness, your toughness that you need to assert your dominance?
I’m in the middle of West Nowhere, New Hampshire. You wanna come here and kick my ass in person? Be my guest. You probably could.
And what will that prove? That you feel the need to resort to physical violence to prove your superiority over what someone else types on a computer?
I’d almost let you kick my ass if it’d help you get over your feelings of inadequacy…
J.
And here’s right winger “Amused Observer”, a racist with eliminationist fantasies, now allying himself with terrorism.
For the record, “Amused Observer” the Republican Party has used fear for political purposes in the elections in 2002, 2004, 2006, 2008 and now have started using fear for political purposes in the 2010 election cycle.
Fear for political purposes is TERRORISM.
The Republican Party’s use of fear for political purposes is…
…what the Republican Party has used to terrify voters with for almost eight straight years.
Previously “Jay Tea” has argued for torture and war crimes.
Won’t comment on the rest, but this part is very true.
I mean really read that and think of the small twisted mind that crafted such dribble. Are we to believe that 1/3 of the electorate belongs to a terrorist political party? That is absurd.
You’d be surprised at how many people believe utter bullshit.
Right wing Republicans use of fear for political purposes is as real as the right wing’s acts of murdering Doctors and liberals.
As right winger “Jay Tea” has admitted, “Just because they won an election (presumed by most to have been a “fair” one) doesn’t suddenly whitewash their essential nature as terrorists. They were terrorists. Now they’re terrorists who won an election and hold legitimate political power.”
JT,
Turns out the Little Rock shooter was a converted Muslim.
Sound like a “liberal” to you? I could see why a Muslim might take exception to recent events in which the US Army participated, but it’s pretty clear that he wasn’t a “liberal.” He shared a characteristic with the Kansas shooter in that he was a religious fanatic.
Perhaps you have noticed, but in case you have not, religious fanatics are anathema to liberals. In this country, you find the Christianists in the GOP.
“Zython”: “You’d be surprised at how many people believe utter bullshit.”
As I recall, it’s a remarkably consistent 1/3 of the population.
Man oh Man,
I can still kick your ass, LOL Repack you’re adding to the hatefilled rhetoric.
“There’s a guy in an SUV with an assault weapon. If you had to guess, would you peg him for a tree-hugging liberal, or a conservative fan of the Second Amendment?
If I had to guess a motive, I’d say he is a vet who was sold a bill of goods by the recruiters and served five deployments, which left him with untreated PTSD.”
Since the suspect is a 24 year old black guy I doubt he’s put in 5 deployments. My first guess would be prison convert, my second would be alienated youth with no friends finding a place to belong at the local mosque. But as you say we’ll find out soon enough.
You sure have been getting a lot of mileage out of that Viet Nam deployment lately. I am sure you are a tough old son of a bitch but everyone’s time in the sun is fleeting. It sucks getting old.
Repack,
In this country showing displeasure at the war in Iraq is a left of center cause. I wouldn’t classify new black muslims as conservative any more than I would consider the Black Panthers or Farrakahn and his disciples right of center.
“In this country, you find the Christianists in the GOP.”
And what pray tell specifically is a christianist?
“religious fanatics are anathema to liberals”
Unless you count extreme environmentalism as a religion.
So you have clips and quotes from TV and radio that are comparable to what O’Reilly said? Right? This isn’t just more false equivalency, right?
Huh? Go visit left wing blogs. Read the NY Times. Watch MSNBC. Many other mainstream media outlets. Lets not forget John Murtha and what he said. The media was happy to parrot accusations of murder, rape, racism, torture etc. We had the Attorney General threatening former admin officials because of supposed torture they authorized and left wing blogs have been leading the charge. More importantly, let’s not forget what the left wing has done over the last 5-6 years specifically to military recruiting stations. You may not like Michelle Malking, but she has links to a bunch of stories where recruiting stations were targeted:
http://michellemalkin.com/2008/03/07/special-report-tracing-the-lefts-escalating-war-on-military-recruiters/
So all is fair. If you’re one of the morons that believes Glenn Beck, Bill O’Reilly and pro-life groups are responsible for the actions of others, then you have to conclude the left is responsible for the shooting of that recruiting station.
Suck it boys.
So some gossiping moron seems to remember that there was discussion about my being linked to a “gay hookup site”
The ghost of Tail Gunner Joe haunts the thread.
What does one say after that kind of a smear?
“At long last, sir … Have you no shame?”
Douchebag!
So some gossiping moron seems to remember that there was discussion about my being linked to a “gay hookup site”
Wasn’t it a transgender hookup site?
Aw, “Newsy.” You’re quoting me again! I’m so flattered!
Of course, my description of Hamas (one I stand by — a terrorist organization that entered electoral politics without changing one whit its essential terrorist nature) is utterly irrelevant here, but thanks for bringing it up. I’m almost blushing.
Oh, and no, I’m not going to click on that link to your site — I’ve already had to bleach my eyeballs once today, and your hideous page (and that’s only talking about the aesthetics, not the insanity that oozes out of it and you).
J.
I’m 63 years old and I can still kick your ass.
What is it with you and your constant need to measure your dick? What’s the matter? The Viagra doesn’t do it for you so puffing out your chest in the comments section of a blog is what gets you a chubby? Grow up.
He shared a characteristic with the Kansas shooter in that he was a religious fanatic.</i
Oh so now all Muslims are religious fanatics? What a nice little bigot you are. And the last time I checked, it wasn’t conservatives targeting military recruiting stations.
And what pray tell specifically is a christianist?
It’s an idiotic term that Andy Sullivan came up with. It doesn’t surprise me to see Repack using it.
“Jaim” asks “Jay”: “So you have clips and quotes from TV and radio that are comparable to what O’Reilly said? Right? This isn’t just more false equivalency, right?”
“Jay’s” response? Nothing except unsourced accusations and a link to a right wing advocate of rounding up Americans and putting them into concentration camps.
Are you a fan of rounding up Americans and putting them into concentration camps, “Jay”
News,
You’re kind of cute when you get all huffy like that.
So how is that independant blogger thing going for you? I’d think you’d be busier over at your place instead of trolling for clicks over here. Maybe Ollie will put you on his blogroll if you spew enough bullshit. Keep it up, you are well on your way!
JT fishes:
Do you have some insecurities about your masculinity, your prowess, your fitness, your toughness that you need to assert your dominance?
Tell me if you think that describes a guy who moves pianos for a living. Piano moving requires toughness, intelligence, spatial ability and leadership, and apparently I have those qualities.
Click my link.
In defense of “Frank DiSalle”, I’ll say that I don’t care that he’s been associated with what he calls a “gay hookup site”, in fact, I’d support his marriage to someone of the same sex.
What’s irritating about “Frank DiSalle” is that he can turn a conversation about right wingers murdering Doctors into talking about his purported association with a “gay hookup site”.
Now that’s crazy.
Hey Newsy, I have a link for you:
http://www.theagapecenter.com/Hospitals/Psychiatric.htm
Go take a peek and get some help.
News Reference :: scroll up — I didn’t bring it up …
And, Zython: a) It is / was not a “hookup site”; and b) I am no longer associated with them.
That is why smearing people is particularly disgusting.
Frank, you can have sex with whoever you want. I don’t care one iota. I was just pointing out that your previous joke about my mother fell flat because you’d be more interested in banging my dad. No more, no less. Although, Zython’s right, I think – it was a transgender site. . I’m not smearing anyone. Although I do think it’s amusing that you belong to a political party (or at least, support a party) that actively campaigns against your interests. I’m surprised the cognitive dissonance hasn’t torn your brain in two.
Yankee Fan Jay, I’m still waiting for a response from you. You find that quote yet where I blame the murder on O’Reilly? I’d love to see it, because I sure as hell don’t remember writing it.
Nice knots
Tell me if you think that describes a guy who moves pianos for a living. Piano moving requires toughness, intelligence, spatial ability and leadership, and apparently I have those qualities.
Then, perhaps, Repack, you’re compensating not for a questionable sense of toughness, but overcompensating for some other sense of inadequacy or insecurity?
If you really, really need to assert your alpha maleness by taking a swing or two at me, if beating the crap out of me will help you and your fragile psyche and self-image in some way, then I guess giving you a chance to assault me is probably not a way to help you resolve your issues of inadequacy and insecurity. Maybe you should seek some help.
Psychological help, not help in beating me up. As I said before, I doubt I’d be a challenge for a manly man who slept and showered with other men and now handles other people’s big organs with other big, burly, sweaty men for a living.
J.
You find that quote yet where I blame the murder on O’Reilly? I’d love to see it, because I sure as hell don’t remember writing it.
You’re right. You didn’t.
My apologies.
Like more of a man? that somehow, you, at 63, being able to beat up a very out-of-shape, sick guy 20 years your younger?
He never, ever misses an opportunity to play that little violin of his, does he?
Hey, “Not Jay Tea” you having trouble paying your bills?
Hey, “Not Jay Tea” you having trouble paying your bills?
Unpossible. I’m conservative. That means I have to be rich.
It was months before I figured out Jay and Jay Tea were different wing-nuts.
Same shit, different assholes.
You cited 250,000. I said “more than doubled.” That means over 500,000. 546,688 is a little more than double 250,000.
Would you like to call “calf rope” now? Too late.
I cited $250K. That’s what my share of the debt was when Mr. Bush took office. And that’s the number Mr. Bush added to my debt. It was he, not Mr. Obama, who presided over a doubling of my indebtedness.
Misdirection sequence on my mark: ready….
“Jay Tea” and “Jay/Not Jay Tea” are very different.
“Jay Tea” is a fanatic neo-conservative con-artist without principles.
I think “Jay/Not Jay Tea” has some principles, it’s just that he’s been suckered for so long by people like “Jay Tea” that all he knows how to do anymore is spout fanatic neo-conservative con-artist talking points.
hmmm. Sorry, “Jaim” was right the first time… SSDA…
It was months before I figured out Jay and Jay Tea were different wing-nuts.
That’s not surprising. You’re a dumb-ass.
Honestly, you and Jay Tea are just different versions of the same broken record.
That’s what being an ideologically motivated fuckwit will do to you.
Click my link.
Well, damn, Repack. That is quite an odyssey of a webpage you have there. Glad to have taken the trip!
Jay Tea,
“That answer your question, Grumpy?”
No. It dose not I see no mention of “Thought”. I see “Bias”. But those two words, though they have similar meanings, do not mean the same thing. Again Please show me where there is a “Thought Crime” enshrined in the law.
I read both your post and the article you linked to. And neither answer the question of what “Thought” has to do with “Hate Crimes Laws”
Please show, or explain where (Logically Please) “Thoughts” are now crimes.
” ‘(b) Certification Requirement- No prosecution of any offense described in this subsection may be undertaken by the United States, except under the certification in writing of the Attorney General, the Deputy Attorney General, the Associate Attorney General, or any Assistant Attorney General specially designated by the Attorney General that–
‘(1) such certifying individual has reasonable cause to believe that the actual or perceived race, color, religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability of any person was a motivating factor underlying the alleged conduct of the defendant; and
‘(2) such certifying individual has consulted with State or local law enforcement officials regarding the prosecution and determined that–
‘(A) the State does not have jurisdiction or does not intend to exercise jurisdiction;
‘(B) the State has requested that the Federal Government assume jurisdiction;
‘(C) the State does not object to the Federal Government assuming jurisdiction; or
‘(D) the verdict or sentence obtained pursuant to State charges left demonstratively unvindicated the Federal interest in eradicating bias-motivated violence.”
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-1913
Thank you in advance for your explanation.
Peace be with you.
Once again, mambochicken , I must ask : Is your Dad transgendered? Perhaps that might explain why I might be interested in “banging” him.
Your ignorance on the subject is quite a surprise, given your persistent professions of omniscience, and your constant accusations that I am so intellectually lacking as to dare to disagree with you.
a) Just because you don’t call what you do (or what “a person does”) smearing doesn’t mean it isn’t.
b) Only about 25% of transgendered individuals consider themselves to be gay.
c) People who choose transgendered partners are not necessarily gay — I am not gay.
d) My sexual preferences are, of course, totally irrelevant to this discussion. If you had not called me a “motherfucker” (again, totally irrelevant to the discussion) the subject would never have been broached.
Your hatred and vile speech makes people like Terry, Limabaugh and O’Reilly look like genteel ladies by comparison. You should be writing on Rense’s or Savage’s blog , not here.
That’s what being an ideologically motivated fuckwit will do to you
Oh I know! I feel so inadequate that I cannot come up with eloquent, non-ideological comments like this:
America has realized that the Republican Party is the party of terrorism
Thank you Jaim. Thank you for sharing with us the rhetorical heights we can all strive for. Apparently, all it requires is a lot of alcohol and a lobotomy.
Unpossible. I’m conservative. That means I have to be rich.
Not true. A lot of non-rich racist assholes are Republicans. See also: Kansas, What’s the Matter With and Strategy, Southern.
Frank, like I said, I had misremembered the site that you had been affiliated with. So yes, if it had been a gay site, then my little quip about my dad would have been more appropriate. But given that I misremembered, clearly this comment made as little sense as your initial “joke” that prompted me. And you still fall flat, because my mom is not transgendered either. So yes, anyway, my apologies for the mixup.
I would be interested to know why you think that simply pointing out (in error) that you belonged to a gay site, or pointing out (correctly) that you belonged to a transgender site, is “smearing” you. If I came on here and told everyone that you molest farm animals, THAT would be smearing. Simply telling the truth isn’t smearing. Under your (apparent) definition, it could be smearing O’Reilly to say that he called Dr. Tiller a “baby killer;” he definitely did call him this, but pointing it out? What a vile smear!
Frank: “Your ignorance on the subject is quite a surprise, given your persistent professions of omniscience, and your constant accusations that I am so intellectually lacking as to dare to disagree with you.”
Couple things, Frank. I have never claimed to be omniscient. Obviously, that would be a ridiculous claim on anyone’s part. Your exaggerations don’t help you. But you know what? I am much, much smarter than you are. I mean, I am several standard deviations higher on the bell curve from where you lie. I suppose that it could be a case of functional omniscience.
I don’t argue with you and call you an idiot because you disagree with me, Frank. There are conservatives that I can actually have civil conversations with re: political and religious matters. I argue with you, and I call you an idiot, because the things you write are fucking stupid, almost without exception. Really, really fucking stupid. Like invoking Pascal’s Wager to justify your belief in Hell stupid. Like invoking “Reichstag fire” on this thread stupid. Like making comments such as “If ignorance was people, you’d be Red China” stupid. Like writing that I consider myself to be omniscient – stupid.
Our conversations years ago with respect to theism/atheism demonstrated particularly effectively that you have little to no critical thinking skills. Furthermore, you’re a nasty, crotchety, bitter old man. I have no respect for this particular combination of traits. I have no respect for you, Frank, because you’ve stripped away any reason that I should have respect for you.
America has NEVER stood for punishing “thought crimes” — until these stupid “hate crime” laws came along. You had to take some kind of conscious act to be convicted of a crime.
Hate crimes are not thought crimes. The perpetrators do not have the power to move objects or cause bodily injury through the power of their thoughts. They assault people with their fist, feet and weapons. If you don’t believe me, ask a victim.
Please enumerate the “indelible stains left on our nation’s history” by left wing bombers or terrorists as opposed to the stains left by right wingers?
Grafitti, mostly. Washes right off.
I didn’t know that you could be sent to Hell for being an angry asshole.
If that’s true, Frank will save you a seat.
then you have to conclude the left is responsible for the shooting of that recruiting station.
And they might be. But let’s be a little more careful about our terms here. ‘Left’ and ‘right’ are too nebulous. Code Pink and another nutty anti-military types might share the responsibility for the recruiting station shooting (though I think it’s more likely the U.S. Military presence in the holy land).
But you’ll have a hard time making the case that Code Pink’s audience and gravitas on the left is even in the same galaxy as O’Reilly’s on the right.
So all is fair. If you’re one of the morons that believes Glenn Beck, Bill O’Reilly and pro-life groups are responsible for the actions of others, then you have to conclude the left is responsible for the shooting of that recruiting station.
So that’s it? It all comes down to a gang war of attrition? You kill one of ours, we kill one of yours?
Man, I can’t WAIT til we become Sweden.
“America has realized that the Republican Party is the party of terrorism”
Feel free to offer evidence that this is a false statement, Jay. Tweedle-dee or tweddle-dum, I forget which is puking onto his keyboard right now.
The Republican Party is the party of domestic terrorism ca. 2009. Feel free to try and deny this.
I’m off to not murder anybody who disagrees with my political views.
Feel free to offer evidence that this is a false statement, Jay.
Nothing like adding some whipped cream and cherries to the heaping pile of stupid you’ve already served up. You make an outrageous statement and then say that I have to prove a negative? You make a claim dummy, you have to prove that’s true. I don’t have to prove that it is not false.
I understand you and Fafaroo like to get together, dress up as naughty girls and spank each other while listening to Liberace records.
Feel free to to offer evidence that this is a false statement.
The Republican Party is the party of domestic terrorism ca. 2009. Feel free to try and deny this.
Ok, I deny it.
I’m off to not murder anybody who disagrees with my political views.
No you’ll just kill them with idiocy.
Who just murdered whom? Hint: It wasn’t a Bill Ayers disciple killing Sean Hannity.
Like I’ve said, enjoy being a member of the future equivalent of the KKK. I’m sure you’ll be warmly welcomed there.
Wow. I’m pretty sure I’ve gone to great lengths to never impugn the men who served in Vietnam. Frankly Repack, I’d appreciate the same from you for those currently serving. I had the honor to recruit quite a few of the men and women currently serving, and not a one of them could be described the way you have.
Well, since the alleged assassin is 23 years old, I doubt he’d done five tours. And then there is the whole “not currently, and never has been, in the military” thing as well. Hell, even if he had been a veteran, I’d like to think he’d be able to tell the difference between the recruiter who told him all those horrible lies, and a couple of privates standing around on HRAP.
“Frank DiSalle”: “I must ask : Is your Dad transgendered? Perhaps that might explain why I might be interested in “banging” him.”
So right winger “Frank DiSalle” explains that he’d only be interested in “banging” a guy if the guy is transgendered.
In a thread about right wing terrorism.
Uhm, “Frank”, this isn’t a “gay hookup site”, like the one you said you were associated with, and your comments are increasingly addled and really off topic.
Again, no one here cares if you are gay or transgendered, “Frank”.
However, “Frank DiSalle”, it should be noted that the left supports your right to marry someone of the same sex, even the transgendered guy you express interest in.
Also, the left feels that you should never be targeted for attack because of your “gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability”, “Frank”.
Right winger “Jay”: “Unpossible. I’m conservative. That means I have to be rich.”
False. The right wing are comprised of suckers and theocrats as well as the ultra rich and their welfare receiving progeny.
You could be a poor sucker, a poor theocrat, or a poor suckered theocrat and still be a “conservative”.
As for the belief by many that the Republican Party has become a party of terrorism, it’s often based on the fact that the Republican Party uses fear for political purposes.
The Republican Party used fear to shred the Constitution and circumvent the Rule Law.
The Republican Party used fear to manipulate poor suckers in the election cycles in 2002, 2004, 2006, and 2008.
And now the Republican terrorist war criminal Dick Cheney is using fear to manipulate the 2010 election cycle, to evade responsibility for his torture crimes and war crimes, and to sell a book.
Also, the left feels that you should never be targeted for attack because of your “gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability”, “Frank”. News Idiot
‘The left’ doesn’t feel that way about gender identity. Not judging by the way they use it as a club on just about every thread on almost all liberal blogs having anything to do with Ann Coulter.
Please explain this about ‘the Left’ if you would, if they’re such paragons of virtue when it comes to such matters:
Playboy: Conservative women they’d like to hate-f*ck.
Hypocrite.
News Reference : If no one cares, why continue to bring it up?
If the left is so danged tolerant, why are you the third liberal to mention it?
Liberals are just as bigoted as everyone else …
Their righteous indignation might fool some, maybe even themselves, but not me.
Also, you needn’t put my “name” in “quotes” . It is my real name. I don’t suffer from the paranoia (or is it undeserved self-aggrandizement) that afflicts most liberals, leading them to believe that it is risky to reveal your real name when you speak “the truth to power”
Heh.
You guys won. Take off the tin foil hats .
Finally, if this thread is about “right wing terrorism”, then , stop the name calling and flaming, provide examples of right wing terrorism that are not limited to a three year old broadcast snippet and an excerpt from a four year old Congressional speech, and discuss “right wing terrorism” .
A man shot a doctor. Before you start throwing anti- abortion into concentration camps , I suggest you gather up some more substantial evidence.
left out the word “advocates” after anti-abortion…
Huh> Would you look at that.
Coincidence, I’m quite sure.
Here you go, Frank.
http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/violence/murders.asp
“Frank DiSalle”: “provide examples of right wing terrorism”
RIGHT WING TERRORISM
[below is from an earlier post]
Abortion clinic violence:
Recent examples of right wing terrorism against abortion clinics.
Examples of right wing terrorism against abortion clinics in the last eight years.
Historical analysis of right wing terrorism against abortion clinics from 1977 to 1994.
“There were 1,700 acts of violence against abortion providers between 1977 and 1994, with four people killed in 1994 and one in 1993, according to statistics from the National Abortion Federation. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms has logged 167 attacks against abortion clinics over the past 15 years.”
“In 1984, there were 18 bombings against abortion clinics. In 1993, there were 78 death threats aimed at clinic employees. And, in 1996, bombings, threats and harassment affected about one-third of U.S. abortion clinics.”
A man shot a doctor. Before you start throwing anti- abortion into concentration camps , I suggest you gather up some more substantial evidence.
It would be helpful to know why the man shot the doctor in the first place.
At his church.
During services.
In front of his family.
And his neighbors.
I suppose we won’t really know until a trial gets under way, will we? It’ll just be a fucking mystery ’til then.
Frank: “Liberals are just as bigoted as everyone else …
Their righteous indignation might fool some, maybe even themselves, but not me. ”
You’re a fool.
Playboy: Conservative women they’d like to hate-f*ck.
Hypocrite.
Oh cmon Dennis! Didn’t you realize? That kind of thing directed at CONSERVATIVES is funny!
Of course, if this were a list directed at liberal women, News Reference would give us a 10,000 word treatise on the historical implications of conservative hate against
women</strike? womyn.Please explain this about ‘the Left’ if you would, if they’re such paragons of virtue when it comes to such matters:
Playboy: Conservative women they’d like to hate-f*ck.
Playboy is part of “The Left”? Since when?
Duros : I did not mean evidence that he killed the Doctor. I meant evidence of ‘right wing’ terrorism , the operative word being, not “terrorism”, but “right wing”.
Let’s keep in mind that violence is not a monopoly of the right wing, and that it is not only conservatives who oppose abortion (e.g., “Feminists for Life”)
Also, without performing an in-depth analysis, it appears that many of the so-called acts of violence were actually arson, involving property damage with no loss of life, or even injuries.
There is no indication of the political affiliation of the perpetrators, be they alleged, indicted or convicted.
While it is a position of many conservatives, and few liberals, that abortion on demand should not be permitted, I know of no group or organization, however small, that advocates violence against, and / or killing of abortionists (that’s “Doctors who perform abortions” , for the peanut gallery)
This is from information provided by Operation Rescue:
And yet, yesterday someone posted a call to “round up Randall Terry, and every one in Operation Rescue”
I’m pretty sure I’ve gone to great lengths to never impugn the men who served in Vietnam. Frankly Repack, I’d appreciate the same from you for those currently serving.
It’ a fact that the Army lowered standards for recruiting because the quotas were not being met, and as a result they have accepted an element into their ranks that would not have qualified a few years ago. Lowering the bar DOES have an effect.
Read “The Charge of the Light Brigade.” Courage, dedication, patriotism, unit loyalty, all the good qualities that you impute to the individual soldier, do not mean squat in the age of mechanized warfare. They are the bait that fills the ranks when cannon fodder is needed, but they will not protect you from your commander’s decisions.
Pat Tillman was the quintessential soldier. He was tough beyond tough, an inspiring leader, and gave up millions for patriotism. If I had to choose an example of the finest soldier ever to serve, he would make the list because of what he gave up to be one. He died for nothing, defending himself from his own comrades in arms, then the real cause of his death was whitewashed, and a fictitious tale of his noble death was used to recruit others.
I served, if not with distinction, at least with honor even though I disagreed violently with the Vietnam War. When I got out I became a very vocal anti-war advocate because I know that it cheapens patriotism to use it up by killing soldiers for nothing.
There are plenty of good and patriotic reasons to serve in the military, but Iraq is not one of them, and Vietnam wasn’t either. I wouldn’t have an opinion of the Vietnam War if I hadn’t served, but I do now and I saw George W. Bush repeat the same mistakes with the same result.
Why SHOULDN’T I be outraged by the waste of all that patriotism and courage, the pointless killing of some of our finest, by a fool who is old enough to have seen the stupidity that he chose to repeat?
Let’s keep in mind that violence is not a monopoly of the right wing, and that it is not only conservatives who oppose abortion (e.g., “Feminists for Life”)
Hate to break it to you, but “Feminists for Life” is just a name. Their opposition to contraception kinda gives them away.
While it is a position of many conservatives, and few liberals, that abortion on demand should not be permitted
So they support abortion at random?
that advocates violence against, and / or killing of abortionists
Because such an organization would be shut down in a heartbeat. You know the KKK officially doesn’t condone violence against minorities, right?
(that’s “Doctors who perform abortions” , for the peanut gallery)
Then just say “abortion doctors”
Also, you needn’t put my “name” in “quotes” . It is my real name. I don’t suffer from the paranoia (or is it undeserved self-aggrandizement) that afflicts most liberals, leading them to believe that it is risky to reveal your real name when you speak “the truth to power”
Frank, it’s basic self-protection to use a handle online. I bet you also click banner ads because “those durned liburals are too a-scared to win $20 by clicking the monkey!”. You should probably run a spyware detection program just to be safe.
Hate to break it to you, but “Feminists for Life” is just a name. Their opposition to contraception kinda gives them away.
Because abortion is the only form of contraception out there, and the only issue that defines feminism is abortion. Got it. Equal pay, voting privileges, workplace fairness, freedom from sexual harassment and discrimination (such as, say, the CEO hitting on an unpaid intern) — those aren’t really “feminist” issues at all.
Zython, thanks for defining feminism for all of us. I presume you’re a woman, yourself, so you’re properly credentialed to make these decisions?
J.
(that’s “Doctors who perform abortions” , for the peanut gallery)
Then just say “abortion doctors”
Why? Since when do you get to define the terms for both sides? “Pro-choice” vs. “anti-choice.” No. And it’s not “pro-life” vs. “pro-abortion.” It’s “pro-life” vs. “pro-choice.”
“Abortionist” is a perfectly valid word, and valid term. I can understand why you’d reject “baby-killer,” but in this case “abortionist” is accurate. I understand why you’d prefer “abortion doctor” — it gets the title in there, and diffuses the “abortion” part, so you can keep some distance from the fundamentally atrocious nature of the act itself, but it’s a legitimate term. Deal with it.
Finally, you oughta dump the quotes. That’ the hallmark of the renowned dipshit “Newsy.” For one, you don’t wanna sound like him/her/it. For another, he/she/it might take offense at your stealing his schtick. For a third, he/she/it might take it as approval.
J.
Also, without performing an in-depth analysis, it appears that many of the so-called acts of violence were actually arson, involving property damage with no loss of life, or even injuries.
So that makes it okay and not an act of domestic terrorism. okay, then.
Duros: If violence is equated with vandalism, who’s to say that “violence” does not also include every time a pro – lifer got into a shoving match with an abortion clinic staff member ?
And Zython’s problem with nomenclature prompts me to ask this question: If abortion is a right reserved to woman, and there is no downside in terms of consequences, then why “make it rare”?
Further, is there any empirical evidence that every woman’s decision to have an abortion, oops, “pregnancy ending event”, is a “difficult one”?
Jay Tea,
“That answer your question, Grumpy?”
No. It dose not I see no mention of “Thought”. I see “Bias”. But those two words, though they have similar meanings, do not mean the same thing. Again Please show me where there is a “Thought Crime” enshrined in the law.
I read both your post and the article you linked to. And neither answer the question of what “Thought” has to do with “Hate Crimes Laws”
Please show, or explain where (Logically Please) “Thoughts” are now crimes.
” ‘(b) Certification Requirement- No prosecution of any offense described in this subsection may be undertaken by the United States, except under the certification in writing of the Attorney General, the Deputy Attorney General, the Associate Attorney General, or any Assistant Attorney General specially designated by the Attorney General that–
‘(1) such certifying individual has reasonable cause to believe that the actual or perceived race, color, religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability of any person was a motivating factor underlying the alleged conduct of the defendant; and
‘(2) such certifying individual has consulted with State or local law enforcement officials regarding the prosecution and determined that–
‘(A) the State does not have jurisdiction or does not intend to exercise jurisdiction;
‘(B) the State has requested that the Federal Government assume jurisdiction;
‘(C) the State does not object to the Federal Government assuming jurisdiction; or
‘(D) the verdict or sentence obtained pursuant to State charges left demonstratively unvindicated the Federal interest in eradicating bias-motivated violence.”
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-1913
Thank you in advance for your explanation.
Peace be with you.
Because abortion is the only form of contraception out there, and the only issue that defines feminism is abortion.
I was actually referring to condoms and such. Feminists for life opposes abortions, but doesn’t do anything to support contraception, which is a huge red flag.
Also, while abortion is not the be-all and end-all of feminism, it is a big issue concerning female sexuality as a whole, which in turn is a big part of feminism.
And Zython’s problem with nomenclature prompts me to ask this question: If abortion is a right reserved to woman, and there is no downside in terms of consequences, then why “make it rare”?
The same reason one would want to make bankruptcy rare. It’s a solution to a problem (in this case, unintended pregnancy), but by reducing the occurance of the problem, we reduce the need for the solution.
Further, is there any empirical evidence that every woman’s decision to have an abortion, oops, “pregnancy ending event”, is a “difficult one”?
Why does it matter? Rights shouldn’t be doted out based on who might and might not “abuse” them.
“Abortionist” is a perfectly valid word, and valid term. I can understand why you’d reject “baby-killer,” but in this case “abortionist” is accurate.
Just as accurate as anti-choice or anti-woman, I will agree with you on that.
it gets the title in there, and diffuses the “abortion” part, so you can keep some distance from the fundamentally atrocious nature of the act itself,
No, it points out that they are, in fact, legitimate medical professionals, and not, as you seem to believe, green scaly monsters that capture unsuspecting women and steal their unborn.
Here’s a hint, when you dehumanize the opposition, people will treat them as inhuman, and shit like this happens. Shocker, I know.
Why does it matter? Rights shouldn’t be doted out based on who might and might not “abuse” them.
Funny, I’ve said that about the 1st and 2nd Amendment, but that doesn’t seem to be the prevailing mentality…
Here’s a hint, when you dehumanize the opposition, people will treat them as inhuman, and shit like this happens. Shocker, I know.
Paging C. S. Strowbridge, please pick up the non-white courtesy phone…
Zython, I consider myself “squishily pro-choice.” My position is that Roe V. Wade should be overturned and the matter turned back to the several states. As it stands now, all this arguing is pretty much political masturbation. Toss out Roe v. Wade, give it to the states where it belongs, and then these arguments will actually mean something.
And it seems that a lot of Americans have been “arguing about abortion” for so long, so frequently, that they have, indeed, “gone blind” because of it.
J.
I’ve said that about the 1st and 2nd Amendment, but that doesn’t seem to be the prevailing mentality…
I haven’t come out against the 1st Amendment, and have no strong feelings about the 2nd Amendment.
Zython, I consider myself “squishily pro-choice.” My position is that Roe V. Wade should be overturned and the matter turned back to the several states. As it stands now, all this arguing is pretty much political masturbation. Toss out Roe v. Wade, give it to the states where it belongs, and then these arguments will actually mean something.
The problem with that is that it screws over poor people in red states. Of course, for the rich, it doesn’t matter to them, as they can afford to travel to a blue state to get it. There are several things that should be determined on a state-by-state basis, abortion isn’t one of those things.
Zython, try being a Republican in Massachusetts. They’re practically an endangered species — but one that it’s not only legal but encouraged to hunt. (I’m speaking as a Mass. neighbor, not a genuine Masshole.)
Yes, there will be states that will ban abortion. And there will be states that will have almost no restrictions. And they will play it out, in 51 laboratories, and maybe we will find a national consensus after a few years or so of experimentation.
Seems to me to be the American way. After all, as Winston Churchill once noted, “Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing…after they have exhausted all other possibilities.”
J.
After all, as Winston Churchill once noted,
I don’t think he meant that as a compliment, Mr. Tea.
Jay Tea,
“That answer your question, Grumpy?”
No. It dose not I see no mention of “Thought”. I see “Bias”. But those two words, though they have similar meanings, do not mean the same thing. Again Please show me where there is a “Thought Crime” enshrined in the law.
I read both your post and the article you linked to. And neither answer the question of what “Thought” has to do with “Hate Crimes Laws”
Please show, or explain where (Logically Please) “Thoughts” are now crimes.
” ‘(b) Certification Requirement- No prosecution of any offense described in this subsection may be undertaken by the United States, except under the certification in writing of the Attorney General, the Deputy Attorney General, the Associate Attorney General, or any Assistant Attorney General specially designated by the Attorney General that–
‘(1) such certifying individual has reasonable cause to believe that the actual or perceived race, color, religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability of any person was a motivating factor underlying the alleged conduct of the defendant; and
‘(2) such certifying individual has consulted with State or local law enforcement officials regarding the prosecution and determined that–
‘(A) the State does not have jurisdiction or does not intend to exercise jurisdiction;
‘(B) the State has requested that the Federal Government assume jurisdiction;
‘(C) the State does not object to the Federal Government assuming jurisdiction; or
‘(D) the verdict or sentence obtained pursuant to State charges left demonstratively unvindicated the Federal interest in eradicating bias-motivated violence.”
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-1913
Thank you in advance for your explanation.
Peace be with you
Yes, there will be states that will ban abortion. And there will be states that will have almost no restrictions. And they will play it out, in 51 laboratories, and maybe we will find a national consensus after a few years or so of experimentation.
Why? We’ve tried both illegal and legal abortion and the legal one seems to be working out just fine.
And I wonder if Frank will yell at you for trying to turn America in to a “social experimentation laboratory”?
It certainly wasn’t, Quaker. But it was remarkably accurate.
Like so many of Sir Winston’s — such as “Democracy is the worst form of government — except for all the others” and “The British and the Americans are two people divided by a common tongue.”
In the case of abortion, I believe we would have settled the matters years ago if it hadn’t been for Roe v. Wade. It put a freeze on the whole argument that’s held for decades.
J.
I believe we would have settled the matters years ago if it hadn’t been for Roe v. Wade. It put a freeze on the whole argument that’s held for decades.
And just what would the outcome of been “years ago” without Roe v Wade?
Jay Tea,
“That answer your question, Grumpy?”
No. It dose not I see no mention of “Thought”. I see “Bias”. But those two words, though they have similar meanings, do not mean the same thing. Again Please show me where there is a “Thought Crime” enshrined in the law.
I read both your post and the article you linked to. And neither answer the question of what “Thought” has to do with “Hate Crimes Laws”
Please show, or explain where (Logically Please) “Thoughts” are now crimes.
” ‘(b) Certification Requirement- No prosecution of any offense described in this subsection may be undertaken by the United States, except under the certification in writing of the Attorney General, the Deputy Attorney General, the Associate Attorney General, or any Assistant Attorney General specially designated by the Attorney General that–
‘(1) such certifying individual has reasonable cause to believe that the actual or perceived race, color, religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability of any person was a motivating factor underlying the alleged conduct of the defendant; and
‘(2) such certifying individual has consulted with State or local law enforcement officials regarding the prosecution and determined that–
‘(A) the State does not have jurisdiction or does not intend to exercise jurisdiction;
‘(B) the State has requested that the Federal Government assume jurisdiction;
‘(C) the State does not object to the Federal Government assuming jurisdiction; or
‘(D) the verdict or sentence obtained pursuant to State charges left demonstratively unvindicated the Federal interest in eradicating bias-motivated violence.”
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-1913
Thank you in advance for your explanation.
Peace be with you.
.
Wow, you really were fucked up by your time in Vietnam if you think that courage, dedication, patriotism, and unit loyalty means squat in the age of mechanized warfare. It’s a perfectly normal thing for people of an older generation to think that those who follow them don’t have it as tough and couldn’t hack it in “their” time. But they’re wrong. Frankly, the skills and abilities demonstrated by the lowest private in combat nowadays would be right in place with the unit leaders of Vietnam. Soldiers today need to be bigger, stronger, faster, and smarter than those of previous wars just to use the equipment which is standard issue to every one.
The Army expanded the allowed age to the federally allowed one, and allowed people with less than a high school diploma to enlist provided they otherwise met the same qualifications as someone with their diploma. I wouldn’t think you’d actually mind the age thing given your very vocal statements about being a 63 year old who can kick the ass of most everyone else. And since you served during the Vietnam-era I’d also think you’d be aware that having a HS diploma instead of a GED isn’t exactly something which demonstrates that someone cannot perform in the military. I mention that since back in your day diplomas weren’t even required. Neither was being a volunteer.
Oh, and you know how many people the Army recruited from 2003-2007?
524,260
Know how many people required a felony waiver during that time to enlist?
2,754
A little more than one half of a percent of enlistees during this time of massive standards reduction required a felony waiver to enlist.
Yup. Poor quality right there. You betcha!
Who just murdered whom? Hint: It wasn’t a Bill Ayers disciple killing Sean Hannity.
Ok, so then by using your logic there’s nothing wrong with declaring in general that Muslims are terrorists since so many of them commit acts of terrorism.
Right?
Right winger “Jay Tea”: “Zython, I consider myself “squishily pro-choice.” My position is that Roe V. Wade should be overturned and the matter turned back to the several states.” … “Toss out Roe v. Wade, give it to the states where it belongs, and then these arguments will actually mean something.”
“Zython”: “The problem with that is that it screws over poor people in red states. Of course, for the rich, it doesn’t matter to them, as they can afford to travel to a blue state to get it. There are several things that should be determined on a state-by-state basis, abortion isn’t one of those things.”
Which is an excellent point but I’ll go even farther.
Right winger “Jay Tea” would make abortion illegal.
Maybe he genuinely thinks he’s “squishily pro-choice”, but the reality of what he’s proposing, tossing out Roe v. Wade, means that privacy for intimate personal decisions is also tossed out and immediately abortion would be illegal in those states that have made abortion illegal in the event of Roe v. Wade being tossed out.
Right winger “Jay Tea” is arguing FOR the intrusion of government into people’s most intimate personal decisions.
“Jay Tea” is too smart not to understand the results of his policy.
Right winger “Jay Tea’s” policy would make abortion illegal in many states and “Jay Tea” knows that, he concedes it himself: “Yes, there will be states that will ban abortion.”
Right winger “Jay Tea” would make abortion illegal.
Terrorism among Muslims is a problem, definitely. This doesn’t mean that all Muslims are terrorists.
Domestic terrorism among Republican/conservative wing-nuts is also a problem.
Thanks for playing.
Terrorism among Muslims is a problem, definitely. This doesn’t mean that all Muslims are terrorists.
Ok, but your logic says that referring to the Muslim faith as the “religion of terrorism” is certainly a fitting statement.
“America has realized that the Republican Party is the party of terrorism”
“America has realized that the Muslim religion is the religion of terrorism”
Thanks for playing indeed.
OMG! Make abortion illegal? You mean make men and women think twice before they jump in the sack?
Make men and women responsible for the consequences of their actions?
Eliminate thousands of cases of PTSD?
That would be terrible!
But, but, but … Abortion is legal!
Yes, as was slavery
As was segregation when slavery ended.
As was denying women the right to vote.
As was demanding that people own property to be eligible to vote.
As was the denial of a biracial couple the right to marry.
But we know that when the Supreme Court makes a decision, that’s it, right?
Heh.
Right wingers love to change the subject when the issue is the long history of right wing terrorism.
If right wingers can’t change the subject they use the sleaziest kinds of false equivalency.
When false equivalency is pointed out to them, simple right wingers like “Jay” go, “Huh?” Right winger “Jay” not only doesn’t understand false equivalency, he goes on to use false equivalency in a weird attempt to show there isn’t false equivalency.
When right wingers false equivalency isn’t working, right wingers try to control the terms of the debate by demanding that you use their incendiary words to define your issues and then they throw fits if you use your own words to define them. It’s definitive right wing “political correctness”.
And then there is right winger “Frank DiSalle”. Talking to “Frank” is like trying to have an intelligent conversation with Republican Sarah Palin, who is so dense that she doesn’t realize how stupid she looks trying to change the subject when asked to say if abortion clinic bombers are terrorists. Changing the subject was Republican Sarah Palin’s only talent and even that was a complete failure and a national embarrassment.
But that moment by Republican Sarah Palin, where she went out of her way to change the subject of abortion clinic bombers being terrorists, is iconic. It sears the brain with it’s hypocrisy.
Republican Sarah Palin repeatedly insisted on making a terrorist act from over 30 years ago the issue because it was politically convenient even while she ignored the 30+ years of right wing terrorism against clinics because it was politically inconvenient.
There’s even the sense that Republican Sarah Palin was okay with right wing terrorism.
It’s the putrid essense of Right Winger’s First Rule: Rules Are For Other People.
Which brings us back to “Frank DiSalle”, who wants to redefine terrorism to not include right wing terrorism against clinics.
“Frank DiSalle”: “Also, without performing an in-depth analysis, it appears that many of the so-called acts of violence [against abortion clinics] were actually arson, involving property damage with no loss of life, or even injuries.”
For most of the last eight years “property damage” has been repeatedly defined as terrorism.
Right wingers were ecstatic to be able to call “property damage”, even when there was “no loss of life, or even injuries”, “terrorism”.
But it’s inconvenient for right wingers to use that same rule against abortion clinic bombers, so they do mental gymnastics to avoid that obvious, logical, and equivalent comparison.
For most of the last eight years “property damage” has been repeatedly defined as terrorism.
Right wingers were ecstatic to be able to call “property damage”, even when there was “no loss of life, or even injuries”, “terrorism”.
Good night “News” “reference”
That gives you eight hours to come up with a smidgen of evidence to support either or both of those absurd statements…
You mean make men and women think twice before they jump in the sack?
Make men and women responsible for the consequences of their actions?
Well, I never thought I’d see it, but Frank’s come right out and said it. He wants abortion illegal because he wants women to be “punished” for having sex.
Eliminate thousands of cases of PTSD?
If you cared about eliminating PTSD, then you wouldn’t have supported going into Iraq.
Rape victims needs to be more responsible, right Frank?
Believe it or not combat is not the only place where PTSD can occur. It’s not something which can be eliminated since it’s part of a person’s response to a traumatic event. It can be identified and treated, not eliminated.
Believe it or not combat is not the only place where PTSD can occur.
I know. Frank brought up the other cases, I was just pointing out that military combat WAS a source of PTSD, not the only one.
It’s not something which can be eliminated since it’s part of a person’s response to a traumatic event. It can be identified and treated, not eliminated.
Tell that to Frank, not me. After all, he was the one who said:
“Eliminate thousands of cases of PTSD?
Frank, you’re such a fucking idiot. Your premise is all wrong. A woman getting an abortion IS being responsible for her actions. An abortion, although it may make you feel icky, is a decision that a woman can make in order to deal with an unwanted pregnancy. The woman, faced with a number of options, selects one as being the best option (for various and personal reasons, certainly) and goes with it. If a woman thinks that an abortion is the best way for her to be responsible, who are you to tell her that she cannot have one? It’s not your fucking business.
And don’t start with your false equivalency bullshit. Every single one of your analogical cases (slavery, segregation, etc.) involves the subjugation of a group of people by a powerful group of others (most often a powerful majority).
A fetus is not a person. This is not grounds for debate. Definitionally speaking, a fetus is NOT A PERSON. It’s a potential person. There’s a huge fucking difference. You should learn it. At any rate, in my view, the interests of a real, live, cognizant person should have precedent over the “interests” of a potential person. A woman, a real person, should not have to bring a fetus to term if she does not want to. End of fucking story. Or at least, it should be.
Mambo,
The late doctor gained his notoriety by performing late term abortions some of which were on “people” who could have survived outside the womb. Like you said, Huge fucking difference.
Right winger “Jay Tea”
Thanks for clearing that up, “Newsy.” I hate it when I’m confused with that notorious left winger who shares my nom de net. I really, really appreciate how you distinguish me from that other nut.
Earlier, you said that you put quotes around people’s names because you don’t think that some people use their real names, not as some kind of an insult. I let that slide. But now I reconsider — to your way of thinking, by using “scare quotes” around names, especially when you couple them with what you consider epithets, you’re showing your juvenile silliness.
My, you’re such a vapid little twit.
J.
Right winger “Jay Tea”: “you’re showing your juvenile silliness.
My, you’re such a vapid little twit.”
As I said, right wingers love to change the subject when the issue is the long history of right wing terrorism.
Though I’ll note that “vapid little twit” is much kinder language than “Jay Tea’s” usual coarse and dehumanizing epithets. Maybe he’s warming up to me.
As for the quotes around peoples nom de plumes, I put them around everyone’s names, including commenters that I like. For instance just in this thread: “Zython” and “Jaim”, two of my favorite commenters got “quoted”.
I’m not entirely sure why it bugs you, but I’m not sure how it bugging you discourages me for continuing to do it, “Jay Tea”. I’d call that a feature, not a bug.
Zython, it is only from your adolescent perspective that all consequences are “punishment”
As was pointed out by another columnist, any guy who buys condoms on his way to a date is acknowledging that one possible outcome of intercourse may be pregnancy …
And who said that we should arbitrarily extinguish potential life?
“Frank DiSalle”, please enlighten us on your philosophy of rapist’s rights.
What kind of parenting rights do rapists get in your world?
You clearly make no exceptions in cases of rape or incest.
Would you really have forced that 9 year old Brazilian girl to have had her daddies child?
http://google.com/search?q=9+year+old+Brazilian+girl
“news” “reference” I wouldn’t force anybody to do anything.
If she manages to carry the baby to term, the baby can be given up for adoption.
Why should the baby be deprived of life because of the circumstances of it’s conception?
No nine year old is prepared to be a mother , under the most ideal of circumstances …
That does not justify terminating the pregnancy, disposing of the fetus , performing a “D&C”, or whatever name you give it.
Aside from the contrived “penumbra of privacy” , what is the logical connection between an unwanted pregnancy and preventing a child from entering the world ?
If I prevent you from receiving nourishment and shelter from the elements, have I not killed you, as surely as if I had shot a bullet through your heart?
Also, a question : Who do you think said this?
Hint: It was not Pres Obama
Excuse me ah …Jay Tea,
“That answer your question, Grumpy?”
No. It dose not I see no mention of “Thought”. I see “Bias”. But those two words, though they have similar meanings, do not mean the same thing. Again Please show me where there is a “Thought Crime” enshrined in the law.
I read both your post and the article you linked to. And neither answer the question of what “Thought” has to do with “Hate Crimes Laws”
Please show, or explain where (Logically Please) “Thoughts” are now crimes.
” ‘(b) Certification Requirement- No prosecution of any offense described in this subsection may be undertaken by the United States, except under the certification in writing of the Attorney General, the Deputy Attorney General, the Associate Attorney General, or any Assistant Attorney General specially designated by the Attorney General that–
‘(1) such certifying individual has reasonable cause to believe that the actual or perceived race, color, religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability of any person was a motivating factor underlying the alleged conduct of the defendant; and
‘(2) such certifying individual has consulted with State or local law enforcement officials regarding the prosecution and determined that–
‘(A) the State does not have jurisdiction or does not intend to exercise jurisdiction;
‘(B) the State has requested that the Federal Government assume jurisdiction;
‘(C) the State does not object to the Federal Government assuming jurisdiction; or
‘(D) the verdict or sentence obtained pursuant to State charges left demonstratively unvindicated the Federal interest in eradicating bias-motivated violence.”
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-1913
Thank you in advance for your explanation.
Peace be with you.
Right winger “Frank DiSalle” finally reveals he is part of the neo-Taliban wing of the Republican Party.
You are immoral, “Frank”.
You just stated that rapists should get to force children to have babies.
That’s the insane edge of the right wing and their Republican Party: They don’t make exceptions for even rape or incest.
Do you even allow an exception if the pregnancy risks the pregnant woman’s life?
A fetus is not a person. This is not grounds for debate.
Sorry, but that is not true. If you want to have a philosophical debate about the issue in the early months of pregnancy, that’s fine, but to make a blanket statement like this is clearly wrong.
Many states have established that a fetus is indeed a person in the eyes of the law. Even the on the left coast of California, the state Supreme Court in 2004 upheld the double murder conviction of Harold Taylor who killed his girlfriend and the baby (fetus if that makes you feel better) despite the fact that he didn’t even know she was 10 weeks pregnant. The same law was used to prosecute
Definitionally speaking, a fetus is NOT A PERSON. It’s a potential person. There’s a huge fucking difference. You should learn it.
This is wrong as well. The whole issue with late term abortions is that they occur – late term, ie the third trimester. At that point, it is no longer a ‘fetus.’ THAT is not grounds for debate.
Duros: If violence is equated with vandalism, who’s to say that “violence” does not …
Didn’t say that, did I?
If abortion is a right reserved to woman,
By definition, it is solely reserved to women.
“News” “Reference”
What I “allow” is irrelevant.
Rapists don’t force children to have babies.
Rape is a crime. Rape does not result in pregnancy.
I will offer you “Falwell’s compromise” : The Rev Jerry Falwell once appealed to the pro-abortion people in this manner.
You can go on having abortions when incest or rape is involved , or when the mother’s delivery of the child may result in a life-threatening situation. Would you then be willing not to have any other abortions?
You can guess what their response was .
You are using the minor, and the incest victim and the rape victim, to open up a floodgate of over a million abortions, most of which are simply discretionary (“I can’t have a baby now, because of _________ “)
I will not be put in that position. Let every rape victim and every incest victim have an abortion if so directed by a medical authority.
Now , what of the rest? If a woman’s life is threatened by a pregnancy or a delivery , let her have an abortion, too.
Anyone else ? No.
Now, let’s hear your compromise offer, “News” “Reference”
BTW, having been informed that this is my real name, why continue with the quotes ?
Duros, you are incorrect. Abortions can be subject to many qualifiers:
They can require a medical authority.
They can require a parent or guardian’s permission, if a minor is involved.
They can involve the agreement of the father of the child.
If a person can access government largesse to have a procedure performed, then that person need not be given total control over whether or not that procedure can be done.
Now, let’s hear your compromise offer …”
You don’t have to have an abortion if you don’t want one. How about that, Frank?
Duros, you are incorrect. Abortions can be subject to many qualifiers:
My point, Frank, was that abortions are solely reserved for women because only women can have them.
Sheesh. Skip it.
The late doctor gained his notoriety by performing late term abortions some of which were on “people” who could have survived outside the womb. Like you said, Huge fucking difference.
So what if some of them were born without a brain? So what if some of them died in utero?
I’m not entirely sure why it bugs you, but I’m not sure how it bugging you discourages me for continuing to do it,
Do you have a keyboard macro to put them in with one finger? That’s my only problem with it. Takes too long.
If she manages to carry the baby to term, the baby can be given up for adoption.
Did you miss the part where it said her pelvis was too small to deliver and it could kill her?
Not that it matters. She should have been more responsible.
any guy who buys condoms on his way to a date is acknowledging that one possible outcome of intercourse may be pregnancy …
Or syphilis, gonorrhea, chlamydia, AIDS, what have you.
I like that one , fafaroo.
And you don’t have to have sex, if you don’t want to risk becoming pregnant. How’s that one, fafaroo?
Duros, the problem with abortion is that some people think that who has one is the single most important thing about them .
People such as myself disagree.
Rape is a crime. Rape does not result in pregnancy.
Wow.
People such as myself disagree.
Really. Color me shocked.
What I “allow” is irrelevant.
Sure didn’t seem that way a few comments ago.
Rapists don’t force children to have babies.
No, that’s your job.
I will offer you “Falwell’s compromise” : The Rev Jerry Falwell once appealed to the pro-abortion people in this manner.
If Jerry Falwell was so great, then why did God kill him?
You can go on having abortions when incest or rape is involved , or when the mother’s delivery of the child may result in a life-threatening situation. Would you then be willing not to have any other abortions?
No, because people make mistakes. This is why we have bankruptcy, divorce, and other such ways to correct them.
You are using the minor, and the incest victim and the rape victim, to open up a floodgate of over a million abortions, most of which are simply discretionary (”I can’t have a baby now, because of _________ “)
So your argument is that women are too stupid to know that their reasons for having an abortion are “invalid” and meaningless
They can involve the agreement of the father of the child.
And here we go. The woman shouldn’t have autonomy over her own body. After all, her brain is too weak. She needs the guidance of a MAN to tell her what she really needs. After all, it was his holy seed that impregnated her?
Right, Frank? Gee, I can’t imagine why your wife left you.
Now, let’s hear your compromise offer, “News” “Reference”
Why the hell should we, or anyone for that matter, compromise with YOU? You’re a fringe element.
me: “A fetus is not a person. This is not grounds for debate.”
Jay: “Sorry, but that is not true. If you want to have a philosophical debate about the issue in the early months of pregnancy, that’s fine, but to make a blanket statement like this is clearly wrong.
Many states have established that a fetus is indeed a person in the eyes of the law.”
Sorry, but you’re the one who’s wrong here. I don’t care that “many states” have decided that a fetus can be considered a person in the eyes of the law. I’m not talking legal issues here, I’m talking philosophical issues. Fetuses are not persons. To be honest, infants and the severely mentally-handicapped are not persons, either. “Personhood” is a very tightly-defined philosophical term. Does it make it okay to kill these individuals? Mostly no, for other reasons. But this is a different discussion.
Anyway. Moving on.
Jay: “This is wrong as well. The whole issue with late term abortions is that they occur – late term, ie the third trimester. At that point, it is no longer a ‘fetus.’ THAT is not grounds for debate.”
What would you call it then? Because it seems like the medical term for it is “fetus.”
A more important point – many conservatives get up in arms about late-term abortions. Are they unpleasant to think about? Certainly. But do you REALLY think that the mother is going to carry around a zygote, then a fetus, for 7 months or more, and then abort it at the very end, FOR NO GOOD REASON? Late-term abortions are very rare, and rarer still are late-term abortions of completely normal, viable fetuses. Stay out of their decision, for fuck’s sake. What right do you have to tell them that their reasons are not sufficient? For (presumed) advocates of small government and state’s rights, you guys can really be incredibly hypocritical.
Frank, you continue to demonstrate yourself to be a complete bastard. Congratulations on that.
Oh, one more thing… and I could be wrong about this, but doesn’t the government reserve the right to regulate abortion in the third trimester anyway? In which case, why the fuck are we talking about late-term abortion?
My day would be complete if I could see a News Reference-y treatment of Mambochicken saying that children and the retarded are not actually people.
Leviticus says that if you cause the death of a fetus, you owe a fine. but if you cause the death of a baby, it’s murder.
So the bible says it is a property issue. Shouldn’t that be the end of it right there? I mean, because it’s the word of god and all.
Many states have established that a fetus is indeed a person in the eyes of the law. Even the on the left coast of California, the state Supreme Court in 2004 upheld the double murder conviction of Harold Taylor who killed his girlfriend and the baby (fetus if that makes you feel better) despite the fact that he didn’t even know she was 10 weeks pregnant. The same law was used to prosecute
Aren’t you worried about the legal ramifications of such a statute? Could an expecting mother drive in the HOV lane? Would they be subjected to pregnancy test if pulled over by cops? Could they claim the fetus as a dependant on their tax return? And if an infant were considered a person, would the mother be held liable for instances of miscarriage? Most of all, wouldn’t abortion be considered murder 1?
Leviticus says that if you cause the death of a fetus, you owe a fine. but if you cause the death of a baby, it’s murder.
Pretty sure that’s in Exodus.
So the bible says it is a property issue. Shouldn’t that be the end of it right there? I mean, because it’s the word of god and all.
Silly Duros, the Old Testament is only relevant when it’s used to deny rights to gays.
Duros: “So the bible says it is a property issue. Shouldn’t that be the end of it right there? I mean, because it’s the word of god and all.”
Zython: “Silly Duros, the Old Testament is only relevant when it’s used to deny rights to gays.”
I love you guys.
Shouldn’t that be the end of it right there? I mean, because it’s the word of god and all.
Sure would be, Duros, if you concede the validity of the entire Bible as a moral guide. But who do you wish to interpret that guide ? The government? Hmmm ?
To be honest, infants and the severely mentally-handicapped are not persons, either.
For those of us with either a gag reflex or a conscience that glimpse into the mind of a pro-abortion person is at once frightening and disgusting.
But do you REALLY think that the mother is going to carry around a zygote, then a fetus, for 7 months or more, and then abort it at the very end, FOR NO GOOD REASON?
If one believes there is no good reason for a discretionary abortion, then, of course, there is no good reason for a late-term abortion. Of course, the very idea that someone may act unreasonably, or even against their own long – term best interest eludes some people. Those people usually define themselves as “Liberals”.
If one believes there is no good reason for a discretionary abortion, then, of course, there is no good reason for a late-term abortion. Of course, the very idea that someone may act unreasonably, or even against their own long – term best interest eludes some people.
Translation: “We need to make abortion illegal because I know what’s best for those dumb hoes better than they do.”
Those people usually define themselves as “Liberals”.
Frank, you would define Vietnamese food as “Liberal” if it gave you gas.
Hey, Frank, here are some relevant musings about the issue at hand.
Let’s not be ridiclious. We all know it’s impossible for something “Liberal” to give you gas since Liberals refuse to allow drilling for gas.
Right wing rapist rights advocate “Frank DiSalle”: “Rape does not result in pregnancy.” … “Rapists don’t force children to have babies.”
“Frank DiSalle” was apparently home schooled by the Taliban.
And this is the problem with the right wing, it’s riddled with bigoted, ignorant zealots who don’t understand basic biology but think they should be the authorities on when government forces strangers into having children.
“fafaroo” offers the only compromise you’ll get from me, “You don’t have to have an abortion if you don’t want one.”
No one will force you to have children, “Frank”.
And you don’t get to force strangers to have children.
Period.
Right wing deadbeat daddy “Jay”: “late term, ie the third trimester. At that point, it is no longer a ‘fetus.’”
Apparently “Jay” was home schooled by Taliban Theocrats as well.
Dictionary definition of “fetus“: “In humans, the unborn young from the end of the eighth week after conception to the moment of birth, as distinguished from the earlier embryo.”
Right wingers that don’t know basic biology are trying to dictate that government can force strangers to have babies.
But if/when government told those right wingers they now had the responsibilities of parents (since they forced the birth of that child(ren)) and would have to pay for that child(ren)’s healthcare, education, food, and clothing, those same right wingers scream “socialism” and move their business address to the Cayman Islands.
Right wingers are deadbeat parents.
“Jay”: “Many states have established that a fetus is indeed a person in the eyes of the law.”
Many states had established that women were property and couldn’t vote in the eyes of the law.
Most states still refuse to honor the marriage between two people (if it’s two of “those” kind of people).
Your appeal to authority falls flat, “Jay”.
If an appeal to authority worked, then the Theocratic right wing would accept that even the Bible says a fetus is not a child and not a person (Exodus 21:22-25).
But despite the backwards laws rejecting women’s freedom to make their own choices, and despite what the Bible might be interpreted as saying, women aren’t your property “Jay”.
Your wife is not your property, your daughter is not your property, and their freedom to make their own choices about their bodies is absolute.
The Taliban Theocratic world view you have, “Jay”, is regressive and antithetical to the ideals of freedom that the right always claim for themselves even as they try to limit the freedoms of others.
Here are some relevant musings for you and fafaroo, Zython:
Why aren’t liberals rushing to assure us this time that “most pro-lifers are peaceful”?
If you don’t believe in shooting abortionists, then don’t shoot one.
Tell you what “Frank ‘Rape does not result in pregnancy’ DiSalle”,
I’ll protect Doctors.
You can protect assassins of Doctors.
I’ll protect the health of the mother.
And you can protect terrorists, “Frank DiSalle”.
Right wing terrorists like “Frank DiSalle” and their Republican protectors are the most repulsive parts of the Republican Party.
Lunatic right wing extremists like “Frank” have been a big part of what has alienated many former moderate Republicans into becoming Independents and voting Democratic.
Keep talking, “Frank ‘Rapists don’t force children to have babies’ DiSalle”, you discredit the right wing better than any of the other right wingers that post here.
Why aren’t liberals rushing to assure us this time that “most pro-lifers are peaceful”?
Same reason we don’t say “most members of the Tailban are peaceful”. You’re equating “pro-lifer” and “Christian”.
If you don’t believe in shooting abortionists, then don’t shoot one.
Thank you for telling us how you really feel.
Still waiting for Obama to condemn the killing of William Long.
Me: To be honest, infants and the severely mentally-handicapped are not persons, either.
Frank: For those of us with either a gag reflex or a conscience that glimpse into the mind of a pro-abortion person is at once frightening and disgusting.
Oh for fuck’s sake, Frank. Learn something, would you? Go take an introductory philosophy course at your local community college or something.
Here: http://www.dunbar-i-l.demon.co.uk/philosophy/pv_2.htm#s3
Took me two seconds to find that. Fetuses, infants, the severely-handicapped, etc., are not persons, in the same way that horses, dogs, llamas, and pigeons are not persons. Personhood is a philosophical construct. Terri Schiavo, in her vegetative state, was not a person. She was a living human, sure, but just being human does not automatically confer personhood.
I’d like to point out, too, that I don’t go around killing the handicapped, babies, nor dogs, nor squirrels. There are perfectly good reasons not to do these kinds of acts. However, “personhood” does not come into play as one of those reasons.
Jesus fucking tapdancing Christ….
“News” “Reference”, don’t call me a terrorist.
You can call me a lunatic , if you wish, because I do reside under the moon. Does the planet you live on have a moon?
Your name calling only serves to remind me that you are a “cookie cutter” garden variety liberal, to wit: “I have run out of valid arguments, so I will now attack you”
It can be carved in stone that, in any debate, the person with the liberal ideological bent will always — always — be the first to resort to name calling and vituperative responses…
You can check every thread in Oliver’s archives — you will find no exceptions — none …
Right winger “Frank DiSalle”: ““News” “Reference”, don’t call me a terrorist.”
This entire thread was about the right wing’s use of “words” to target a Doctor for assassination.
The right wing doesn’t want their “words” restricted and yet want to restrict the “words” that are used by others.
Either you have a problem with “words” or you don’t, “Frank”.
Either there was something wrong with a national television and radio host repeatedly targeting someone or there isn’t.
Having some random blog-commenter out you as a “terrorist” means what? It means nothing.
Try to consider how you would feel if a national radio and television program with millions of viewers kept calling you a “murderer” and “baby killer”.
Try to consider what it would feel like to have your face repeatedly put on television and have a national audience told you are a “baby killer” and a “murderer”.
But that would require empathy, something you clearly don’t have and is something markedly missing in the right wing and the Republican Party.
“Frank DiSalle”, you’ve expressed a willingness to protect rapists ability to force their victims to have their children.
“Frank DiSalle”, you are trying to diminish the murder of a Doctor:
“I have no sympathy whatever for an abortionist”
“Frank DiSalle”, you are trying to diminish the use of terrorism.
“Frank DiSalle”, you throw around reckless rhetoric but now you want to restrict the rhetoric that’s used against you?
Start by cleaning up your own mouth, “Frank ‘the Terrorist’ DiSalle”.
“Newsie”:
Do you really think that little diatribe passed for logic ?
I guess I can’t stop you from calling me a terrorist, but , wow, are you a pseudo – intellectual blowhard or what?
My BS detector went deep into the red, right about here :
Either you have a problem with “words” or you don’t, “Frank”.
BTW, my name is Frank , not “Frank” , “Newsie”
Tell you what, “Frank”, I’ll compromise and just call you “Frank ‘Taliban’ DiSalle”.
Your indirect support of terrorism used on behalf of your issue, your Theocratic paternalism, your expectation that women should be subservient to your authoritarianism, your use of toxic and violent language to brand others even while demanding that others not use the same kind of language to brand you, well, we’ll go out on a limb and assume that you aren’t part of a violent right wing terrorist group, you just apologize for them.
That’s the functional difference between al Qaeda and the Taliban.
“News” “Reference” Yes, well, I’ll go out on a limb, and assume that you haven’t escaped from a psychiatric hospital, but you belong in one.
It shouldn’t surprise anyone that the assassin of Dr. Tiller was a member of Operation Rescue. Operation Rescue and their leader, Randall Terry
Now, for the truth:
The killer was never a member of OR – he posted a comment . Might as well say I work for Media Matters.
Second, Randall Terry hasn’t been associated with OR for years.
Let’s go back to blaming O’Reilly… or Limabaugh … or ANYBODY but the killer…
But, for Pete’s sake, make these anti-abortion people shut up!
So, they’re human beings, but not people. Thank goodness that our legal system doesn’t take the same approach. Otherwise would the killing of a seriously retarded person would be treated the same as killing a dog; some fines, maybe s short stint in jail, having to write an apology to PETA?
I wonder if there’s a Law and Order episode where a killer attempted a defense of “They weren’t really a person” to mitigate their crime? If not I should really get to writing.
So, they’re human beings, but not people. Thank goodness that our legal system doesn’t take the same approach. Otherwise would the killing of a seriously retarded person would be treated the same as killing a dog; some fines, maybe s short stint in jail, having to write an apology to PETA?
I’m pretty sure that’s how it works in Texas, sans the PETA letter.
SFC, I don’t care if the truth makes you cringe. It’s the fucking truth. Try to defend the idea that simply having human DNA is enough to consider you a person. For fuck’s sake, a human being in a permanent vegetative state is even less of a person than a common dog. If you consider it a continuum, with a minimum threshold for “personhood” (which consists of the elements I linked to above), then a fucking house cat is “more” a person than a human being with massive brain damage in a permanent vegetative state.
Now, do I condone killing these individuals? Hell no. There are LOTS of reasons to not kill off the mentally-handicapped, infants, the decrepit. However, “personhood” is not one of them.
What is so hard to understand about this? Why can’t you guys comprehend this, one of the simplest fucking philosophical issues there is?
of course right wingeres are resposable
i listen to orielly hannity medved ingrahm and others
i monitor them all day after work
and they say and have talked and hinted at violent revolution all the time and so do thier sit ins
the y say i could understand why some one would do thies things
just llisteen to them
as men and women i am ashamed of thouse who pretend thies things dont exist
just as they did with police brutality,racial inequality, and some in this country as the holocost happend.
some dont even know we traind binladin and saddam.
but this is becouse they are afraid of the human creatue
afraid to embrace the beauty and horror.Only by doing this can we progress.
fox has lied to you thie is so much evadebce for this cnn msnbc
lied to you about iraq iran cuba china your money
and u still beleave them\
shame on u…. excuse spelling…PEACE