You failed to do so.

And you failed to show that top American universities aren’t in a large part publicly (i.e., government grant) funded.

K-12 in America definitely needs work. Home schooling and vouchers aren’t the answer. Our publicly funded major universities, however, are doing just fine despite your little fits of bitching and moaning.

They literally do:

“virtually all the available data show that the group of homeschooled children who are tested is above average. The pattern for children for whom data are available resembles that of children in private schools.”(51) Ray notes that, regardless of income, race, gender, or parents’ level of education, homeschooled children consistently score between the 82nd and 92nd percentiles on achievement tests.

Stop lying.

The rest of your argument is the same tired excuse that because we have good public universities that our public education system is the envy of the world. Sorry, but just repeating this over and over won’t make it any more true.

The fact is that even public universities receive a majority of their funding from sources other than the government. The only aspect of the US education system you are willing to defend is also the one least dependent on the government.

To summarize:

* Our K-12 system is mediocre
* Private and even home schooled kids outperform public school kids
* US colleges and universities are far less dependent on government funding than either the K-12 system or colleges and universities in most other countries. Coincidentally they also are our best performers.
* Number of facts you have offered up to support anything: 0

But other than that you’re doing great.

They literally do not. They literally can’t, because no studies are available to show that in general home-school kids perform better than public school kids. Stop lying.

And of course public universities don’t mean “no private money universities.” Grants come in many forms, and endowments are built up from a variety of sources. You’ve still failed to indicate how the public university system in America can be easily separated from the public school system in general. There are certainly differences worth looking at, but my statement stands — taken as a whole, the American educational system is the envy of the world. Could it be better? Absolutely? Are there problems with primary education regarding math and science? Of course.

Stick to the kiddie pool for now on the debates, k?

Both links indicated superior performance by home schooled children. Learn to read.

Privately dominated universities like The University of Virginia? The University of Michigan? The University of Texas? The University of California at Berkley?

Your argument is ridiculous as it cherry picks rather than taking a comprehensive view. But given the weakness of your argument I am not surprised. Even here, however, your argument falls apart:

http://www.nacubo.org/x683.xml?ss=pf

University of Virginia Projects More Private Than Public Funding for FY04

The situation in Virginia is indicative of the situation in other states. The portion of state support making up UVA’s annual operating budget has dwindled from 28 percent in 1985 to 8.1 percent next year. As state support has declined, fundraising has risen significantly. In 1990, UVA collected $51 million in donations, compared to $255 million in 2002. While private funding has increased, it does not serve as a direct replacement for state appropriations because gifts and endowment earnings are usually earmarked for a specific purpose. State funding tends to have fewer restrictions.

Learn to google.

The Dick Army’s, Bill Bennett’s, Pat Buchannan’s, Rush Limbaugh’s all contribute to a hateful, ignorant and vile group, who are unlikely to succeed in that mould.

Learn to google.

“You want to keep talking about privately-dominated universities”

Privately dominated universities like The University of Virginia? The University of Michigan? The University of Texas? The University of California at Berkley?

Learn to read.

Jay Caruso: “Can you even respond without having to throw out a curse word or insult? Is that possible?”

Style Over Substance is a logical fallacy, not a convincing argument.

“And yes, I do think it has an effect and because it is so, would tend to lend credibility to the idea of home-schooling rather than detract from it.”

You think home-schooling is practical?

“The study was conducted by the Center on Education Policy which is an advocate for public education and therefore the results are suspect…”

Poisoning the Well, another logical fallacy.

“My goal here is not to get into a pissing match about private schools vs. public schools.”

Because clearly you would lose that argument.

“But the fact remains that we have dumped hundreds of billions of dollars into public education from the federal level without any significant improvement…”

This is not a fact. This is an assertion without evidence.

“…and the unfortunate result of this is that there are too many people who believe the solution is to spend MORE money.”

No. But the solution is to spend more money is a smarter way. You need more teachers so kids get more one on one time, and you need to pay teachers more, because they are underpaid.

On the other hand, No Child Left Behind cost money and made education worse.

Also, you need federal standards so local boards don’t decide to teach religion as science.

My bad: http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-294.html

“Lines notes that “virtually all the available data show that the group of homeschooled children who are tested is above average. The pattern for children for whom data are available resembles that of children in private schools.”(51) Ray notes that, regardless of income, race, gender, or parents’ level of education, homeschooled children consistently score between the 82nd and 92nd percentiles on achievement tests.(52) The data from the Washington Homeschool Research Project, which has analyzed the SAT scores of homeschooled children in Washington State since 1985, demonstrated that the scores of those children were above average. Jon Wartes, writing on behalf of the project, notes that “fears that homeschooled children in Washington are at an academic disadvantage are not confirmed.”(53) One significant piece of evidence of the educational progress homeschooled children are making: the National Merit Scholarship Corporation chose more than 70 homeschooled high school seniors as semifinalists in its 1998 competition.(54) ”

More here:

http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.asp

I admitted that the American public education system has problems, but it’s still the envy of the world. Look at where the top students from other advanced nations want to go to university — it’s ain’t in Japan or Korea, countries that score higher on math and science tests at pre-university levels.

You want to keep talking about privately-dominated universities as if they are the sum total of the American education system. I can understand why, given how pathetic the government dominated K-12 system is. But it doesn’t make your point any stronger.

Further, let’s say that the American system as a whole wasn’t the envy of the world. Would the answer to improving come through simply stripping it of all Federal funds? Of course not. The problems are huge, but not because of government funding.

You’re right. Money doesn’t make people dumber, but the regulations and conditions that comes with the money does. And it is the height of naivete to think that the two can be separated.

But thanks for playing and losing once again.

You realize that declaring yourself the winner doesn’t make it so, right?

Do you know what a “research grant” is, sparky?

Do you know that this, once again, doesn’t contradict what I said? Go ahead and break down public vs private funding for universities and get back to me. And feel free to keep grasping at straws.

Do you know what a “research grant” is, sparky?

And I’d agree that the main problem with the American system as it stands is with regards to math and science education at the high school level. At the University level, not so much. American universities are where the bulk of advanced research gets done.

I admitted that the American public education system has problems, but it’s still the envy of the world. Look at where the top students from other advanced nations want to go to university — it’s ain’t in Japan or Korea, countries that score higher on math and science tests at pre-university levels.

Further, let’s say that the American system as a whole wasn’t the envy of the world. Would the answer to improving come through simply stripping it of all Federal funds? Of course not. The problems are huge, but not because of government funding.

But thanks for playing and losing once again.

http://www.centerforpubliceducation.org/site/c.kjJXJ5MPIwE/b.3642453/k.B171/US_15_yearolds_lag_in_math_and_science_on_international_test.htm

http://4brevard.com/choice/international-test-scores.htm

http://www.philly.com/philly/education//20081210_U_S__students_still_test_as_mediocre.html

http://www.nysun.com/foreign/us-students-lag-behind-other-nations-in-science/67500

Yup. I’m guessing you never went to college, but for foreign students getting into an American university is kind of like winning the lottery. I didn’t say the American public education system was perfect — far from it. But it happens to be the best in the world. Pity you didn’t get much out of it.

Pity you don’t know what the hell you are talking about. Here is Obama:

“The future belongs to the nation that best educates its citizens. And yet, despite resources that are unmatched anywhere in the world, we’ve let our grades slip, our schools crumble, our teacher quality fall short, and other nations outpace us. … We’ve accepted failure for far too long.”

But then again, maybe his perspective is skewed because his mom home schooled him while they lived in Indonesia and he hates public education.

You’re an idiot. Public (and private) American universities get billions of dollars from the Fed. And again, it ain’t perfect, but it’s the best educational system in the world according to the rest of the world.

You do realize that this does not contradict what I wrote, right?

Sorry wing-nuts, you lose again.

This coming from the guy that thinks that we have an education system that is the envy of the world, proving you are vastly ignorant on the subject. The only aspect of our system that inspires real jealousy is our universities, which coincidentally is the part of our education system the government has the least amount of influence on.

But it is rather obvious that you are more interested in talking points than facts.

Bullshit. Link please.

“BWAHAHAHAHA!!! Our education system is the envy of the world? Really? You mean that after all those international tests in which our students attain mediocre results makes the other countries envious?”

Yup. I’m guessing you never went to college, but for foreign students getting into an American university is kind of like winning the lottery. I didn’t say the American public education system was perfect — far from it. But it happens to be the best in the world. Pity you didn’t get much out of it.

“The only place other countries are envious is our university system, which is more financed by private institutions than on the primary school level.”

You’re an idiot. Public (and private) American universities get billions of dollars from the Fed. And again, it ain’t perfect, but it’s the best educational system in the world according to the rest of the world.

Sorry wing-nuts, you lose again.

Can you even respond without having to throw out a curse word or insult? Is that possible?

And yes, I do think it has an effect and because it is so, would tend to lend credibility to the idea of home-schooling rather than detract from it.

“They found that there is no real difference between the academic performance given by public and private school students from the same low-income bracket and background, suggesting that family involvement has more of an impact than the school setting.”

The study was conducted by the Center on Education Policy which is an advocate for public education and therefore the results are suspect (not necessarily untrue, but because they have a clearly spelled out agenda, there needs to be more to look at). This is a topic where results from independent studies are warranted.

My goal here is not to get into a pissing match about private schools vs. public schools. There are many good public school systems. But the fact remains that we have dumped hundreds of billions of dollars into public education from the federal level without any significant improvement and the unfortunate result of this is that there are too many people who believe the solution is to spend MORE money.

Umm…. Congressional Republicans approval ratings are in the sewer. Congressional Democrats are doing rather well.

Home-schooled students also tend to have massive amounts of one-on-one time. If you don’t think that has an effect, you are fucking stupid.

education-portal.com/articles/Public_Schools_vs._Private_Schools:_New_Study_Says_There_is_No_Difference.html

Key quote…

“They found that there is no real difference between the academic performance given by public and private school students from the same low-income bracket and background, suggesting that family involvement has more of an impact than the school setting.”

BWAHAHAHAHA!!! Our education system is the envy of the world? Really? You mean that after all those international tests in which our students attain mediocre results makes the other countries envious?

The only place other countries are envious is our university system, which is more financed by private institutions than on the primary school level. I believe the entire Ivy League is private, no? Even lots of public colleges and universities get plenty of funding from private sources.

And in Europe universities in places like Germany and France and almost entirely publicly funded, yet we have the more prestigious institutions. Funny, that.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/12/world/europe/12france.html

Oh, and the latest Long Term Trends results of the National Assessment of Educational Progress are out. At the end of high school, students perform no better today than they did nearly 40 years ago, and yet we spend more than twice as much per pupil in real, inflation-adjusted terms.

But I’m sure it will be totally different when it comes to health care.

Oh you mean like Pierre-Gilles de Gennes the 1991 Nobel Prize winner in physics? Or how about John D. Linsley? He didn’t win the Nobel Prize but was nominated for the prize in physics in 1981. Of course, Thomas Edison was home-schooled as well.

Study after study has shown that home-schooled students clearly out-perform their public school counterparts and score higher on college entrance exams than public school students. Home-schooling is of course, derided by people such as yourself because you’re probably one of the people who think it’s nothing but religious crazies keeping their kids at home so they don’t come into contact with the “homos” but in reality, home-schooling is becoming a viable option for many people and not just for religious reasons. Maybe I’m wrong, how knows? But you did take a shot at home-schooling so I will assume you’re one that’s opposed to it.

That being said, while I am an advocate of home-schooling, I am only up until high school as kids who want to have a career the sciences should have that high school introduction to biology, chemistry and other science labs.

I’m wondering what his model of efficiency is, since our system of government has proven so wanting. Slavery and serfdom were efficient, certainly. Creating law by royal decree was SUPER efficient.

Oh please, I was not discussing our system of government. If our government did more of what it was supposed to and less of what it wasn’t supposed to do, things would be better. I am talking about what happens once the legislation is written. Intentions mean squat. Execution and direction is what determines destination. The problems occur when the legislation gets to the bureaucrats and regulators whose lot in life is to add layers of regulations and make things more bureaucratic. Welfare programs for example. Nearly 75 cents of every dollar gets eaten up by the bureaucracy before it even gets to a person. You compare that to private charities where the best ones spend 30% or less of the money they get on administrative costs. And no I am not arguing that we can replace welfare with private charities. I am merely saying that the government model is one of waste, inefficiency, and often, ineffectiveness.

I get a good laugh at the fact that the approval rating of Congress is in the sewer yet so many of those people who believe that are the ones who want them to come up with ‘solutions’ to problems.

Earlier, we hear Jay warning about making “bold statements,” and now he tells us that government cannot do “anything” efficiently.

I’m wondering what his model of efficiency is, since our system of government has proven so wanting. Slavery and serfdom were efficient, certainly. Creating law by royal decree was SUPER efficient.

Yeah, yeah, we know: bureaucracy is difficult. But the only “small” governments that work are either dealing with countries much smaller and with fewer problems than this one, or are so small because there’s a tiny, iron-fisted cabal on the throne.

I agree. My early schooling in public schools was good, as was the public university where I got my Master’s. Wow, we agree on everything today!

Less snarkily, there are certainly problems with public education, but overall the American educational system is the envy of the world. There’s a reason so many non-Americans want to do their university degrees here.

But please, continue to keep spewing your ridiculous talking points. I’d love to hear about all of the home-schooled kids who have won Nobel Prizes. Please share!