I am shocked that gambling is going on there.
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March 12th, 2009
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Oliver Willis
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So, let’s hear an argument about how eliminating the current mandatory secret ballot on unionizing is such a great thing. Tell us why workers don’t really need the protection of a secret ballot to insulate them from intimidation from either side.
J.
The left sure loved shoddy research when it showed how half of Iraq’s adult population being blown up and yet no one but the people doing the research noticed this massive kill-off.
“So, let’s hear an argument about how eliminating the current mandatory secret ballot on unionizing is such a great thing.“
Jay Tea says: “So, let’s hear an argument about how eliminating the current mandatory secret ballot on unionizing is such a great thing. Tell us why workers don’t really need the protection of a secret ballot to insulate them from intimidation from either side.”
Two points…
1.) They are not eliminating the secret ballot. This has been explained to you in the past, so either you are lying or retarded. Don’t care which.
2.) Employees can no longer FORCE workers to choose a secret ballot. It is now the choice of the workers and the workers alone.
And as a bonus…
3.) There isn’t intimidation from both sides. The intimidation is nearly 100% coming from management.
americanrightsatwork.org/employee-free-choice-act/resource-library/why-workers-need-the-employee-free-choice-act.html
“…91 percent force employees to attend one-on-one anti-union meetings with their supervisors.”
This is illegal. In 91% of the cases, when workers try to unionize, the employer breaks the law. 91%
Can you come up with evidence that Unions are doing the same?
Strowbridge, no matter how you spin it, it DOES eliminate the mandatory secret ballot. IF a union can get 50% +1 workers to sign pledge cards, then the vote is bypassed.
Hmm… American Rights At Work. Where have I heard of them before?
Oh, yeah… I think I wrote about them. And — astonishingly — not favorably.
They’re a special interest who lobbied Congress on behalf of the EFCA. Labor Secretary (then Representative) Hilda Solis was its treasurer — a fact she neglected to mention on her disclosure forms. So our current Labor Secretary (who sponsored the EFCA in 2007) signed off on checks to, in effect, lobby herself.
(I say “in effect” because it is unlikely that she, as someone already thoroughly in the tank for the EFCA, needed any “persuading.”)
Pity she apparently violated House ethics rules by not disclosing her position with ARAW…
And THAT is who you’re citing as an impeccable source of information, Strowbridge? The lobbying firm that used to employ one of the sponsors of the bill while she was still a sitting legislator?
You said I was either dumb or a liar. Either of which could be true, but not in this case — the mandatory aspect of the secret ballot IS being disposed of.
Now you’re mouthing Big Labor talking points, straight from a pro-union lobbying group. I ask you — are YOU stupid, or gullible, or just in the tank for them too?
(That shows how much nicer I am than you — I’m giving you three choices.)
J.
Darn it, I forgot the link to Solis lobbying herself: the source for my article was this one:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/016/101mswgc.asp
J.
Or, shorter Strowbridge: “Unions haven’t been able to compete with management in intimidating workers for a long time. This bill helps level the playing field and gets them back in the bullying game!”
The secret ballot is the ultimate protection from intimidation from either side. So why do ANYTHING that weakens it?
J.
J.G.Thayer: “Strowbridge, no matter how you spin it, it DOES eliminate the mandatory secret ballot.”
No matter how many times you lie about this, it is still a lie. The workers can ask for a secret ballot. Or they can sign the card. They have the choice.
So quit fucking lying about it.
“Hmm… American Rights At Work. Where have I heard of them before?
Oh, yeah… I think I wrote about them. And — astonishingly — not favorably.”
I’m not surprised you wouldn’t like them. After all, they are parroting your fucking lies.
J.G.Thayer: “The secret ballot is the ultimate protection from intimidation from either side.”
If that’s true, then why does management intimidate works 91% of the time?
Answer that, you fucking idiot.
On second thought. Just shut the fuck up. You are a waste of life. That doctor really should have said, “Pay up front. Cause your life isn’t worth saving.”
No matter how many naughty words you use, Strowbridge, changes the fact that under the EFCA the secret ballot is no longer mandatory. Cuss, lie, slur, spin all you like (as if you need my permission — you seem to have Tourette’s of the keyboard), that fact doesn’t change.
Asshole.
J.
Answer that, you fucking idiot.
On second thought. Just shut the fuck up. You are a waste of life. That doctor really should have said, “Pay up front. Cause your life isn’t worth saving.”–C.S. Strowbridge
”When a man is wrong and wont admit it, he always gets angry.”
——Thomas Haliburton, Canadian writer (1796-1865)
Oh, geez, Dennis, you had to quote someone named “Haliburton.” Now we’ll be subjected to tons of Cheney conspiracy bullshit…
Seriously, though, that quote does seem to capture the quintessential Strowbridge, doesn’t it?
J.
Seriously, though, that quote does seem to capture the quintessential Strowbridge, doesn’t it? –
To a T, Jay.
He prides himself on it.
”When a man is wrong and wont admit it, he always gets angry.”
——Thomas Haliburton, Canadian writer (1796-1865)
And when someone is lied to over and over again, they also get angry.
J.G.Thayer has been claiming the EFCA does away with the secret vote. This has been the bullshit talking point about the bill. Now that he’s finally willing to admit that’s a lie, he’s switching the emphasis to ‘mandatory.’
You two might be stupid enough to fall for that. I’m not.
J.G.Thayer: “No matter how many naughty words you use, Strowbridge, changes the fact that under the EFCA the secret ballot is no longer mandatory.”
Who gives a fuck? For weeks you’ve been saying the secret ballot would be gone. It isn’t. It is still an option.
By the way, it was always an option. It was just the employer who have the choice. Not the employees.
So you are fucking wrong about that as well.
J.G.Thayer: “Seriously, though, that quote does seem to capture the quintessential Strowbridge, doesn’t it? –”
Dennis the Bigot: “To a T, Jay.
He prides himself on it.”
You might want to save this conversation till you get to your Klan meeting. Otherwise you won’t have anything to talk about while you are wearing those white hoods.
Who gives a fuck? For weeks you’ve been saying the secret ballot would be gone. It isn’t. It is still an option.
By the way, it was always an option. It was just the employer who have the choice. Not the employees.
So you are fucking wrong about that as well.
No, you frothing loon, I said that the MANDATORY secret ballot would be gone. Yes, it would still be an “option.” The less convenient one for unions.
The secret ballot is the great leveler, the playing field where neither side has an advantage. I can see why you would want to undercut it — the union thugs have been grossly underemployed for too long.
Oh, and it’s nice to see you finding an alternative to your incessant bleating about “Southern Strategy.” Calling your adversaries Klansmen is more of a variation on a theme over real change, but in your case even the slightest sign of rationality is to be encouraged.
J.
Haha, oh my god, I just noticed he started adding that “mandatory” part in too after he couldn’t get away with the earlier lying. That’s hilarious.
August, if I occasionally have forgotten to specify the “mandatory” part, I regret it and apologize. But it would likely be a de facto removal of the secret ballot — if the unions have an alternative that they can control a lot better than the secret ballot, then it’s no great surprise that they will take advantage of that.
J.
JT, the workers choose, do they not? Not the union, in other words, but the employees themselves.
Wait… so that’s it then? if “unions have an alternative that they can control a lot better than the secret ballot, then it’s no great surprise that they will take advantage of that.”
Umm… good?
Of course card check is easier to form a union than a controlled secret ballot election monitored by the employer. That’s why most employers choose secret elections following a condensed threat campaign. Or, in Jay-speak: “employers have an alternative that they can control a lot better than card check, then it’s no great surprise that they will take advantage of that.”
The EFCA allows the workers to choose their voting method, not the employer. This, apparently, is what you consider “destroying worker’s rights.”
I didn’t realize that your argument against EFCA was to scream VERY LOUDLY about… what it does. Yes, it stops the “secret ballot” from being the only option workers have to form a union. That’s, well, ah… the point of the bill. What part of “Employee Free Choice Act” was ambiguous in having an objective of giving employees… a… free… choice?
Sorry, I really thought there was some kind of argument you were making here beyond “UNIONS! BOOGADABOOGADA!” Yes, the EFCA widens the options for workers forming a union. That will make it easier to form a union. That’s the point of the bill.
Next up: “don’t eat that! It’s DELICIOUS!”
You know, you’re right, August. After all, it’s not like unions have a history of using intimidation and violence and corruption to get their way. Just ask the Teamsters current president, Jimmy Hoffa Jr.
And while you’re doing that, ask him how his father, a previous Teamsters president, is enjoying his retirement. I hear he’s become quite a football fan, and a real supporter of the New York Giants. Especially in home games.
J.
If anybody has some actual reliable data regarding how many unions ‘intimidate’ and how often it actually occurs, I would genuinely love to see it.
Parthenon, it happened in the past. The government intervened to keep it from happening again. (See the consent decrees signed with the Teamsters for example, as well as the long list of Teamsters and other union officials who retired to Club Fed.) One of the keys in getting and keeping the corruption out was the secret ballot provision.
So let’s get rid of it now!
J.
You know, you’re right, August. After all, it’s not like unions have a history of using intimidation and violence and corruption to get their way. Just ask the Teamsters current president, Jimmy Hoffa Jr.
I await patiently for you to explain how that actually addresses any argument I made aside from, once again, anecdotally vilifying something without any facts.
And while you’re doing that, ask him how his father, a previous Teamsters president, is enjoying his retirement. I hear he’s become quite a football fan, and a real supporter of the New York Giants. Especially in home games.
So the follow-up to your ad hominem babble is to cite an urban legend as some profound support of your argument? Jesus Christ.
God, I wish I could think like Jay. Then I could just say that the EFCA is great because people who hate unions all drink the blood of orphan children, and if you don’t believe me, just remember that Pop Rocks and soda killed the kid who played Mikey in the Life commercials, and be totally convinced I don’t look like a complete idiot.
it
All you have to know about this bill is that employers are almost universally against it, and it’s not because of some concern about the rights of their employees to have a secret ballot.
Wait, why are you guys letting Thayer characterize the current state of play as mandating secret ballots? It is nothing of the sort: employers can currently accept employee unions without having secret ballot elections.
Also, I keep hearing, from the same people who view McCain-Feingold and hate speech laws as unconstitutional and unconscionable infringements on free speech, that card check is just wrong because it allows for the possibility of intimidation of holdouts. Then again, economic libertarianism means never having to be logically self-consistent.
J.G.Thayer: “After all, it’s not like unions have a history of using intimidation and violence and corruption to get their way”
And in 91% of cases now, the employers use illegal intimidation.
91% of cases now.
It’s funny how you concentrate on the past and ignore the present.
“…employers can currently accept employee unions without having secret ballot elections.”
Exaclty. It also needs to be said that all this hand-wringing about doing away with secret ballots doesn’t seem to count when it comes DECERTIFYING a union:
So the same people decrying how “unAmerican” and “anti-democratic” the EFCA is when it comes to certifying a union, have absolutely no problem skipping the secret ballot process when it comes to decertifying a union.
Jay Tea, you wanna explain that odd sense of principles to us?
The left sure loved shoddy research when it showed how half of Iraq’s adult population being blown up and yet no one but the people doing the research noticed this massive kill-off.
It’s not that no one noticed it, it’s that the entities that we get info from (Bush Administration, MSM, etc.) didn’t care.
Darn it, I forgot the link to Solis lobbying herself: the source for my article was this one:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/016/101mswgc.asp
J.
The same Weekly Standard that published articles about how the Clintons had Vince Foster killed off for no reason whatsoever? The pendulum swings both ways, Jay Tea.