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CPAC audience goes nuts for Cliff Kincaid saying President Obama wasn’t born in the USA. Which is to say that the Republican party is incorporating fringe conspiracy theories into the mainstream the same way they did during the Clinton presidency.
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The conservative GOP has no reason to live, do they? Their failed policies led to the crisis we live today.
No one needs any more evidence that the people who still revere Ronald Reagan as some sort of competent figure, much less a saint, left reality sometime in the early ’80s. You’re just gilding the lily by pointing out the most recent insanity.
Let’s hope this charge becomes the centerpiece of their entire 2010 campaign.
Actually, I don’t think that the issue of Obama’s birthplace has been decisively settled, as in a release of an original birth certificate.
I also think that that is a brilliant move on Obama’s part.
I believe that Obama was born in Hawaii, as claimed, and as such is perfectly qualified to be president.
However, by holding back on the absolute proof, Obama keeps a portion of his detractors busy and distracted and wrapped up in a completely irrelevant and unproductive wild-goose chase, making them look like idiots while they don’t pursue more substantial criticisms.
There’s an old piece of advice that Obama seems to be following: “never interrupt your opponent while he’s making a mistake.” His opponents are making a really, really stupid mistake, and for Obama to release his birth certificate would be to interrupt them while they make themselves look like idiots.
It’s reminiscent of John Kerry and his service record (still only released to two or three of his pet reporters, and not the public as promised) — but in Kerry’s case, there are several very valid questions that have yet to be answered. In Obama’s case, it’s pretty much open and closed — the last lingering doubts I had were quashed when someone tracked down the newspaper announcement of his birth from a Honolulu paper.
It’s a loser argument, most useful in identifying losers. And it’s serving that role most brilliantly.
J.
Shorter Jay Tea:
The Obama, it trickses us, by telling us the truth but not convincing us.
toasters, there’s an old bit about how the best way to lie is to tell the truth, but in such a way that no one believes you.
In this case, Obama sees that the nuts are working themselves into frenzies with no help from him, and he feels no great compunction to make them stop. And I don’t blame him in the least. In fact, I respect it as a brilliant political move.
J.
My god these people are fucking idiots.
the best way to lie is to tell the truth, but in such a way that no one believes you.
Plenty of people believe Obama, though there is a really creepy fringe movement of people who don’t.
When the government performs detailed background check to grant top secret security clearance, no one has the conniptions over “OMG! Where’s the original birth certificate!?!?” sort of stuff. This sort of braying is purely an artifact of a political movement that has encouraged a lot of delusional thinking, combined with other Republicans who think that “lying for the cause” is fun, rather than a moral offense.
J.G.Thayer: “Actually, I don’t think that the issue of Obama’s birthplace has been decisively settled, as in a release of an original birth certificate.”
And you are wrong. It has been decisively settled, in the same way the moon landing debate has been decisively settled.
It’s just crackpots being crackpots, and Obama has done nothing to stir these losers up. That’s just their natural state.
They were, are and always will be Birchers
“but in Kerry’s case, there are several very valid questions that have yet to be answered”
John Kerry served his country honorably Jay, unlike you. So STFU and go back to your Cheetohs.
As for the topic of the post, think of it this way — the modern Republican party has nothing left. They were in power for eight years, and they failed. Started two different wars, failed to win or even finish either of them. Ruined the economy. Made the Federal government larger and more intrusive than ever before.
So it’s kind of like Hitler in his bunker as the Soviet Army advanced. He came up with some pretty strange fantasies himself. Just look at thumbsucking bed-wetters like Jay, for example, trying to recycle know falsehoods from 2004.
“So it’s kind of like Hitler in his bunker as the Soviet Army advanced. He came up with some pretty strange fantasies himself. Just look at thumbsucking bed-wetters like Jay, for example, trying to recycle know falsehoods from 2004.”
Might as well post it again. It does fit here as well…
someguywithawebsite.com/cartoons/2008/081110_postfight.html
Hell, as a bonus…
apa.org/journals/features/psp7761121.pdf
The GOP used to be amazing at politics and terrible at governing. Now they suck at both.* They suck at both, and they don’t realize it. They think when someone points out that they suck, that they rock, and the other person is scared.
* – The only explanation I can think of is they always sucked at both, but now the Democrats are more willing to stand up and fight for themselves. It easy to win if your opponent doesn’t fight back.
You have to be pretty looney too think that there’s a conspiracy theory beneath the conspiracy theory, Jay Tea. Seriously, seek help.
Has a “vault copy” of BHO’s birth record been made public? (When this “issue” re-surfaced recently, I did a bit of googling, and as far as I could tell, it hasn’t.)
If not, it seems to me comparable to Sarah Palin’s objection to providing evidence that the baby she produced last year was actually hers and not her daughter’s.
I wish Obama well, and I understand “never interrupt your opponent while he’s making a mistake”, but if Obama is what he claims he is, he should realize that the American experience requires us to presume that our public officials are corrupt liars.
By seeking public office, Obama, like Palin, forfeited much of his right to privacy. He should welcome the opportunity to set the record straight.
I’m having Kerry/Form 180 flashbacks now. Even when he signed Form 180 after the election and the full record was released (with, big shocker here, no skeletons in his military closet falling out), there were still wingnuts insisting he either hadn’t released the info, or that he had successfully buried it somehow.
mike, kindly cite a link to Kerry’s record, or a summation of said record NOT written by one of the three reporters who were granted permission.
Kerry’s obligation ended in 1972. His discharge is dated 1978. That would imply that he was still a reserve officer during his participation in the informal peace talks in Paris, putting him in violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice for consorting with the enemy.
One theory I’ve read that explains it is that Kerry’s initial discharge was less than honorable, and he appealed and upgraded it after Carter granted amnesty to Viet Nam deserters and draft dodgers and the like. It would explain the date discrepancies. (Did he get out in 1972? 1975? 1978? They’ve all been used.)
Kerry pledged to release his records to the general public. I am a member of the general public, and I’d like to see them.
But Obama… it’s a red herring. It’s a wild goose. Folks should just let it go.
J.
If you follow the links in Oliver’s post, you’ll find a copy of BHO’s “Certificate of Live Birth”. It is issued by the official custodian of the original record (aka the “vault copy”), and it certifies his basic birth data.
The parents often receive a facsimile of the vault copy shortly after the child’s birth, but the original remains in the possession of the vital records department. Thereafter, vital records agencies issue only “birth certificates”, which are certified abstracts of the birth data, and are available to legitimately interested parties, such as courts, insurance companies, motor vehicle agencies, etc.
Many of us have seen the facsimiles, and are aware of the difference between them and a “birth certificate”. This difference has made possible the current tempest in a teapot.
The original record usually contains additional information, often hand-written, such as attending physician, parents’ age, occupation, or place of birth, and sometimes the child’s footprint. The parental data included on Obama’s Certificate of Live Birth is typical, and refers only to their “race”.
Although a birth certificate is generally admissible in a law court, we are now in the court of public opinion. A birth certificate is secondary evidence of the birth facts; the vault copy is the primary evidence. The evidentiary rule is that secondary evidence is inadmissible unless the unavailability of the primary evidence is satisfactorily explained.
I believe that Obama’s birth facts are what he says they are. But unless this is really a Machiavellian gambit as suggested above by Jay Tea, why not produce a certified image of the vault copy?
Don’t you think that if there were discrepancies between the “vault copy” and the “live birth” certificate, the vital records agency would have mentioned it by now. Don’t you think that federal agencies involved in granting security clearances and the like would have requested and received proof of Obama’s claims by now? Don’t you think the NSA and the FBI check these sorts of things before swearing in a President?
MAN, this is ridiculous.
Jay, which branch of the armed forces did you serve in again? I keep forgetting.
And was it the purple heart or the silver star that you received for your combat duty?
Gee shucks, I can’t keep up with your valorous military service!
http://news.findlaw.com/legalnews/lit/election2004/docs.html
The above is a summary of nearly everything publicly released. Ridiculous that I even have to bother responding to this. And exemplary of the illness that has seized control of the conservative movement.
Obama’s “original” birth certificate is in the custody of the Department of Health of the state of Hawaii, which presumably practices pay-to-play corruption just like everywhere else. Suggesting that we trust the NSA and FBI sounds like something that Cheney would say.
Production of the “best evidence” can sometimes be excused because it would be burdensome to produce it. There’s no apparent burden here.
(For the record, I think that Obama is a million times better than McCain/Palin would have been, and I repeat that I believe that Obama’s birth facts are what he says they are.)
You know, this Obama birth certificate “issue” is a red herring being used to mask what those idiots really mean:
They DO NOT WANT A BLACK PRESIDENT. Period.
They need to just STFU and say it, starting with you, Jay Tea. Do it and maybe you won’t be considered such a ball-less wonder.
Idiot.
Or we can just write you off as a drooling crank, Watson. The court of public opinion, which you consider paramount, as spoken, and only the 27-percenters are the ones harboring this particular obsession.
I’m not obsessed with this issue; Mr. Willis brought it up.
Once it’s under discussion, the question is whether to feebly mock the 27-percenters, or to refute them.
“Mr. Willis brought it up.”
No, Cliff Kincaid did.
Jaim:
I served in every single conflict the US has engaged in since the Spanish-American War to date.
I have been awarded seven Medal Of Honor.
In addition, I have 28 Purple Hearts, 20 Silver Stars, 32 Bronze Stars, and countless other decorations.
I have served in all four of the armed services at least twice, and the Coast Guard five times.
I am a quintuple amputee from combat injuries.
I have to wear three jackets to hold all my medals.
Now, just what relevance does this have to the topic at hand?
Oh, that’s right. You’re one of those assholes who, when they can’t answer the arguments, go after the arguers. Why answer questions when you can just silence the askers?
J.
Yup, Jack, because the “birth certificate” issue is exclusive to black people. Well, black people and John McCain.
No, the birth certificate idiots are a subset of the “We didn’t want Obama to be president” crowd, clinging desperately to anything they can find to avoid accepting reality.
Yes, some people opposed Obama purely on racial grounds. Others opposed him for other issues. Are you saying that the 47% or so of Americans who voted for McCain are all racists?
If that’s true, we’re fucked.
Luckily, it isn’t.
J.
mike, I looked at that link, and it is remarkably incomplete. The military is infamous for keeping records on EVERYTHING. And at that link:
NO records from Kerry’s release from active duty to reserves, and his transfer from the reserve to the inactive reserve. (1970-1972)
NO records from that transfer to his discharge in 1978.
So, it’s now conclusively proven that John Kerry was still a member of the United States Navy when he met with representatives of North Vietnam in Paris in 1971 to help negotiate “The People’s Peace Treaty.” Why wasn’t he charged with violating the Uniform Code of Military Justice for this consorting with the enemy?
If he was, it would most likely have been during that lengthy gap in the record…
J.
“Now, just what relevance does this have to the topic at hand?”
That you’re a cowardly chickenhawk who casts aspersions against a guy who _actually fucking served his country_. But I guess you were busy getting your socialized health-care that I had to pay for, unfortunately.
Honestly, I can take the idiocy of wingnuts fading into obscurity for a while — it’s funny as hell to watch you babble and cry. But Kerry earned his medals, just like other veterans. You have no right as a poopy-diapered sniveler to call into question the fact that he served honorably.
He lost the election in 2004, for Christ’s sake. It’s over. And yet you have the gall, as a chickenhawk and a beneficiary of my tax dollars paying for your healthcare, to try and smear him.
More bluntly, he doesn’t owe you a fucking thing with regards to his record. He went to Vietnam. He did his duty. He put his ass on the line in exactly the _opposite_ manner of George W. Bush and Dick “Better Things To Do” Cheney.
And you, my friend, are a sad little loser so filled with hypocrisy and deranged truther fantasies that it’s painful and hilarious to observe.
Go to bed, troll. You’re a coward and a liar.
Jaim, how telling.
My questions about Kerry don’t involve his service in Vietnam in the least. I didn’t challenge any of his medals or decorations. I questioned his conduct after he left Vietnam.
But apparently what he did in those couple of months gave him carte blanche to violate the laws of the Navy and the United States in your eyes.
Let’s see… mock and denigrate me, wrap Kerry in the flag to deflect criticism, bring up Bush & Cheney… I think you hit almost every trick in the “quick, change the subject!” playbook there.
Personally, I find it entertaining. Please, keep it up. Find new ways to avoid discussing the points I raised.
J.
Says the guy who’s bringing up Kerry in a thread about truther fantasies regarding Obama’s birth certificate.
Sorry, but there’s no other way to put this — You’re a grade-A fucking idiot, Jay. I know you fancy yourself some sort of intellectual, but you’re not — you’re dumb. You don’t know how to argue beyond changing the subject. You’re a poor writer. You’re simply not very bright.
And I’m sorry about “mocking and denigrating” you, but you make it far too easy for me and everyone else with a brain and a modicum of education.
(”Modicum” means “small amount,” btw. I forget big words are tough for you.)
Still waiting for you to reimburse me for your life-saving socialized medical care, btw. E-mail me for my mailing address and we can work out a payment plan, OK?
the question is whether to feebly mock the 27-percenters or refute them
I think you don’t really understand the dynamic, here. No amount of facts are going to sway there beliefs, however documented or well-reasoned. It will just become another piece of the overall conspiracy they believe exists. Others who don’t actually believe it’s true will continue to propagate the claim because they’re liars and they enjoy spreading this lie because they think it’s fun to annoy and poke at liberals, as well as having fun getting other people to believe it. So, yeah, mocking the 27-percenters is the right response here. Let them stew in their juices as they impotently flail at Obama on this one.
I’m just going to come out and say it: If the President had been born in Kenya and moved to the US when he was a tiny kid, I wouldn’t give a shit.
There, that ought to stir up the crazypot.
Mockery can be effective, and it certainly has its place in politics. GW Bush used it to avoid responding to charges that he went AWOL from his reserve unit during the Viet Nam conflict.
But an ad hominem attack is not a substitute for an effective response on the merits, which provides an even more effective weapon against the 27-percenters, who not long ago were 30-something percenters.
(Parthenon, I agree with you.)
an effective response on the merits
Obama replied with an effective response on the merits. The dead-enders thought it was part of a conspiracy and continued to press their case. They do not want, nor are they interested in a response “on the merits.” For them, propagating this is a form of social posturing. Lying about this sort of thing and pressing the issue his how they form social relationships and identify their own kind. It’s sort of like furry fandom.
Trying to explain the merits of the issue to them is much like wrestling with the proverbial pig: you just get dirty and the pig enjoys it.
Parthenon, I’m with you — in principle. But as a believer in the Constitution, I wouldn’t go along with it without a Constitutional amendment. In exchange, I’d want a seriously lengthy period of citizenship — say, 25 or 30 years.
As it is now, though, them’s the rules. Live by ‘em or work to change ‘em.
J.
“The military is infamous…”
If a liberal Democrat ever wrote/said that the military was “infamous” (as opposed to “famous”) for anything, I wonder what the reaction would be from a lot of conservatives to this word choice…okay, I’ve stopped wondering. It would be “anti-military! anti-military!”
If the President had been born in Kenya and moved to the US when he was a tiny kid, I wouldn’t give a shit.
There, that ought to stir up the crazypot.
Two words, Parth.
President Schwarzenegger.
Is that what you want?! HUH?! DO YA?
Is that what you want?!
“Whereas, the aforementioned amendment shall not apply to anyone from the cast or crew of Kindergarten Cop…”
Whew. Much better.
As it is now, though, them’s the rules. Live by ‘em or work to change ‘em.
Yeah, I suppose. But the nativist Tancredo wing of your ideological set would never allow it.
Whew. Much better.
Dude, that was too close.