Glenn Reynolds’ buddies at Pajamas Media are lowering the bar yet again for “citizen journalism”.
Joe the plumber is putting down his wrenches and picking up a reporter’s notebook.
The Ohio man who became a household name during the presidential campaign says he is heading to Israel as a war correspondent for the conservative Web site pjtv.com.
Samuel J. Wurzelbacher (WUR’-zuhl-bah-kur) says he’ll spend 10 days covering the fighting.
Great news. Send a shitty tax-dodging plumber to cover a war zone. What could possibly go wrong?
I thought he was gonna be the next Billy Ray Cyrus.
“I thought he was gonna be the next Billy Ray Cyrus.”
Joe the Plumber doesn’t have the talent to become the next Bully Ray Cyrus.
Sure, go ahead and sneer at good ol’ Joe the Plumber. He predicted that if Obama got elected, he wouldn’t be able to buy out his boss’ plumbing business. And see what happened?
Wow. I mean, really … wow. Is anyone actually in charge at that rag?
I have no more words.
“Glenn Reynolds’ buddies at Pajamas Media are lowering the bar yet again for “citizen journalism”.
And the bar was set by whom, Mr. Willis? You?
The bar is set by people who think a right wing nutjob like Joe The Plumber is the first choice to be an international correspondent.
Shorter joaquin: I got nuthin.
He’s as qualified to report as plumb. No license required for the new profession.
To quote Josh Marshall,
Snark aside, I think this is perfectly emblematic of the entire approach of the Right to approximately everything in the last 8 years. What matters is not expertise or qualifications, but how “red” you are (funny that the term, originally from Maoist China, can now be applied to conservative “red” staters). As we saw with things like the Iraq Coalition Provisional Authority, applicants weren’t asked whether they spoke Arabic or Kurdish, or whether they knew the difference between Sunni and Shia, but what their thoughts on Roe v Wade are. The Plumber’s manifest lack of qualification for this is not a bug, it’s a feature: he has shown himself to be correct politically, and that is what counts.
Sean Penn.
I win.
As we saw with things like the Iraq Coalition Provisional Authority, applicants weren’t asked whether they spoke Arabic or Kurdish, or whether they knew the difference between Sunni and Shia, but what their thoughts on Roe v Wade are. The Plumber’s manifest lack of qualification for this is not a bug, it’s a feature: he has shown himself to be correct politically, and that is what counts.
Indeed. And recall how Monica Goodling rejected a candidate for a DOJ spot, not because the candidate was gay, but merely rumored to be gay. We will not be through with these depraved douchebags soon enough.
JtP is the ideal wingnut pundit: someone whose idea of political discourse is a sneered “I guess yew think yer purty dang smart, don’t yew, Mr. Smart Person?” Someone who’s not just unintelligent, but who has a bitter contempt for the whole idea of intelligence.
(Funny that the term, originally from Maoist China, can now be applied to conservative “red” staters)
“Better dead than Red.” Now, more than ever.
JtP is the ideal wingnut pundit: someone whose idea of political discourse is a sneered “I guess yew think yer purty dang smart, don’t yew, Mr. Smart Person?” Someone who’s not just unintelligent, but who has a bitter contempt for the whole idea of intelligence.
“Ah don’ talk too good, but mah pigs talk a whole lot bettuh!”
–Uncle Elmer, the WWF “Wrestling Album” (1985)
“Sean Penn.
I win.”
Yes, you win. You win the award for “maybe more stupid than Amused Observer”. You can pick up the prize over there.
Who has Media Matters sent to the Middle East to cover events happening there?
Humility and Humbleness: not as American as apple pie.
Ahh… but how we love hubris! Any jackass in America looking for some attention to further conflate thier ego and increase thier 5 minutes of fame will do it at all costs. Joe Nobody= Douche Nozzle.
Can they keep him? Please?
SFC B: “Who has Media Matters sent to the Middle East to cover events happening there?”
I really hope you don’t think you scored any points with that post.
Wow, what amazing prejudice.
That’s as in “pre-judge,” as in to judge this guy’s work before he even starts.
Between this and Oliver’s premature ejaculations over not-yet-president Obama, I’m wondering if I should ask him about lottery numbers…
J.
I’m sure Joe was near the bottom of a long list of names that Pajamas Media asked to go to war zone, getting the nod after everyone else mentioned they were to busy fighting the war on islamofacism from the comfort of their homes.
Jay, could you tell us what Joe’s qualifications are re: a background in Middle East history, speaking ability in Hebrew or Arabic, advanced degrees in religious differences between Islam and Judaism?
No? Hmm. Seems like you’re, what’s the phrase I’m looking for. . . Oh yeah, absolutely completely fucking full of shit yet again.
I wasn’t aware that we were supposed to be keeping score. I figured this was more like the Special Olympics; we all win and we’re all retards.
Seriously though, isn’t one of the things traditional media brags about is their ability to put eyes and cameras on the ground? PJM is doing just that. Sure, they’re doing it with a guy who is obviously controversial, but they’re doing it. If Mr. Willis is going to be railing against PJM for sending Wurzelbacher to Israel to cover the conflict for PJM, I don’t see how it’s unfair to ask if MediaMatters has done anything similar. I honestly don’t know since I don’t use MM.
Sure, they’re doing it with a guy who is obviously
controversiala one-man travishamockeryfix’d
The context of this stunt is that recently wingers have realized that they don’t have any real hard-news outlets, just fat guys covered in Cheetoh duest living in their mom’s basement talking about how they’d be in Iraq fighting if it wasn’t for their bad knees. The left has put together some fledgling news outlets (Talking Points Memo probably being the best one) that actually do some real reporting, in addition to just pontificating.
So O-dub’s point is that, in an act of massive FAIL, the wingers are sending a totally unqualified guy over to Israel to “objectively” report what’s going on.
Which is fine — makes them look like the pathetic losers most Americans already think/know they are.
I’m wondering if I should ask him about lottery numbers…
and I’m wondering if we can’t get some other half-assed, right wing publication to ship you of to the north pole to cover global warming or something.
He’s not going to see very much of the war if he’s in Israel and the IDF isn’t going to let him into Gaza. So I’ll be interested to see what he finds to report.
“The towels here in the Tel Aviv Hilton are scratchy, the drinks are watered down, and there aren’t very many hot chicks by the pool. For PJMTV, this is Joe Wurzelbacher.”
“Oh, and there’s no ESPN on cable.”
Between this and Oliver’s premature ejaculations over not-yet-president Obama, I’m wondering if I should ask him about lottery numbers
Given your stateside deferred scale model re-enactments of classic WW2 battles and bold election predictions belched out by your dim bulb Wizwank contemporaries like Cassy Fiano and Kim Priestap- Well, Hell Jay, we’re not exactly laughing with you.
Joe the Plumber? As an international corespondent? Please, the bar got so low you you could trip over it.
LOL,
He couldn’t do any worse than the wire guys for Reuters, CNN, or the BBC. You guys like to make fun of our poor old buddy “Joe”. But I would wager that with a weeks time to catch up he could handle most of the jobs you guys hold and none of you could do a skilled trade like he has. Now we might have a plumber or two in the audience but I kind of doubt it. First there would have been sufficient snark to bring it to my attention and two, it’s a skilled trade where you actually have to work to make a living.
Joe may be a flash in the pan but he is representative of the kind of spirit and attitude that built this country out of a raw wilderness. LOL, you guys aren’t.
“none of you could do a skilled trade like he has”
Dude doesn’t even have a license to be a plumber. That’s like saying “He’s an accomplished docotr, just doesn’t happen to have his M.D. yet.” And he’s a tax evader. Frankly, what has he ever accomplished other than that?
I still haven’t had a threesome with Christina Ricci and Allyson Hanigan, but other than that I’ve accomplished a few things in life. Things I’m proud of in my small way. So yeah, I’m pretty confident I’m better at life than he is, but you can speak for yourself AO.
Comeon guys, these conservatives are smart. Sean Hannity was educated as a construction worker. Sarah Palin’s been to over five different colleges. And Pamela Juggs has a masters from YouTube University. I’m looking forward to Joe The Plumber’s poop scoops.
“The towels here in the Tel Aviv Hilton …”
ROFL.
As for this, AO:
Joe may be a flash in the pan but he is representative of the kind of spirit and attitude that built this country out of a raw wilderness.
I think we can count this statement as further evidence that you live in your mom’s basement.
“So yeah, I’m pretty confident I’m better at life than he is …”
I think jaim pretty much nails it. Joe the plumber is a loser who got lucky and is now trying to do anything and everything he can to keep from going back to where he was.
Otherwise, why, if Joe was such an awesome plumber who loved his self-made blue collar life as much you think he should AO, why, since October, has he tried to do every job under the sun — from country western singer to war correspondent — but fix somebody’s fucking sink?
If some local businessman in Joe’s area offered him the capital to but his bosses business or start his own plumbing company, do you think Joe would take it? has Joe himself tried to leverage his national fame — not to mention his considerable knowledge as a skilled tradesman — into some venture capital to start his own plumbing company? The answer to both questions, I bet, is a resounding Fuck no! He’d rather take Pajama Media’s money to try his hand at reporting on a foreign war, no matter slim the chance that it’s going to lead to anything worth damn, either as original reporting for us or a media career for Joe.
No, Joe doesn’t give a shit about being a plumber. He wants something else. And we’re not talking about simple self-improvement, which is something to admire. We’re talking about a desperate, lurching panic that the clock is ticking on his 15 minutes and Joe is going to do ANYTHING to keep from going back to a dead end life he fucking hated.
But I would wager that with a weeks time to catch up he could handle most of the jobs you guys hold and none of you could do a skilled trade like he has.
Just one more thing, AO. Clearly a weeks time is all it takes to get a handle on the job of being a right wing hack for a shitty right wing publication. Hell, Jay Tea now blogs for Commentary and that guy doesn’t even know how to use google!
He’s not going to see very much of the war if he’s in Israel and the IDF isn’t going to let him into Gaza.
Unless, of course, he travels to Sderot or chats with any of the 950,000 Israelis who live within rocket range of Gaza and have to spend their days making certain they’re never more than 10-15 seconds from a hardened shelter.
Is this a stunt? Of course it is. So was “Gunga Dan” Rather’s trip into Afghanistan during the Soviet invasion.
Is Joe qualified to be a journalist? As qualified as Caroline Kennedy is to be in the Senate, or Barack Obama to be president. Hell, it looks like Al Franken might end up in the US Senate — and folks are wondering if Joe The Plumber is “qualified” to go somewhere and write about it?
Yes, he may crash and burn as a journalist. Or he might do an utterly pedestrian job. Or he might find he’s got a real gift for it. But as AO noted, he certainly can’t do much worse than Reuters, who has been caught time and time and time again propagandizing on behalf of terrorists. (And no, that’s not hyperbole — Google up “zombietime Reuters Lebanon” to see a thoroughly damning analysis of how in 2006 Reuters was an all-but-paid-for shill for Hezbollah.)
I’m not even certain I’ll read Wurzelbacher’s reports. I might, out of morbid curiosity, just to see if the guy (and his editors) can put together something coherent, let alone worthwhile — but that’s pretty much what PJM is counting on. It’s a variant of the car wreck phenomenon.
I’m withholding judgment until there’s something to actually judge.
J.
“I might, out of morbid curiosity, just to see if the guy (and his editors) can put together something coherent, let alone worthwhile …”
Why not, Jay Tea. That’s why we all read your comments. You keep at it big fella, one of these days you’ll get the hang of it.
Jay Tea: “Wow, what amazing prejudice.
That’s as in ‘pre-judge,’ as in to judge this guy’s work before he even starts.”
There’s prejudice and then there’s judging someone’s future performance on their past performance.
Has this man done anything, anything that suggests he would be well equipped to do this job?
“Is Joe qualified to be a journalist? As qualified as Caroline Kennedy is to be in the Senate, or Barack Obama to be president. Hell, it looks like Al Franken might end up in the US Senate — and folks are wondering if Joe The Plumber is ‘qualified’ to go somewhere and write about it?”
You are a fucking idiot and should be sterilized so you don’t pass on your defective genes to future generations.
Amused Observer: “LOL,”
And AO shows up to prove he is nothing more than a child.
“Joe may be a flash in the pan but he is representative of the kind of spirit and attitude that built this country out of a raw wilderness. LOL, you guys aren’t.”
Wow. This is massively stupid, even compared to most of your posts, AO. You should feel a deep sense of shame after writing that bullshit.
Joe the Fucking Plumber is the kind of guy who help build the wild west? He an unlicensed plumber who doesn’t pay his taxes. That’s not exactly the same as someone who traveled 1000 miles west and lived in a sod house they built with their own hands.
You are so fucking stupid, I’m embarrassed to be living on the same planet as you.
There’s prejudice and then there’s judging someone’s future performance on their past performance.
Has this man done anything, anything that suggests he would be well equipped to do this job?
Gee, looks like Strowbridge pulled a Biden and plagiarized that line. I know I saw it repeatedly during the presidential campaign — applied to Barack Obama.
Oh, and Strowbridge: you can relax. A long time ago I looked at my medical history and genetic ailments and made certain that I wouldn’t be passing along those genes and inflicting them on children. But thanks for your concern.
Hmm… forced sterilization for those you judge “defective.” I think Strowbridge is plagiarizing again…
J.
Oh, and Strowbridge: you can relax …”
Wow. Nothing like playing for abject pity as a come back.
Playing for pity, fafaroo? Not in the least. Just laughing at Strowbridge for 1) playing amateur eugenicist in deciding who is “worthy” of being allowed to reproduce; and B) the sheer pointlessness of bringing the topic up with me.
My history’s a bit foggy. Who were those people back in the 1930’s and 1940’s who praciced forced sterilization of “defectives,” anyway?
J.
Here’s one of the questions I would love to see Wurzelbacher ask the Average Joe’s of Israel:
What’s it like to live in a nation that spreads the wealth around?
…and B) the sheer pointlessness of bringing the topic up with me.”
…and there you go again.
And Jay Tea, I don’t think you should go around making Nazi allusions as someone who is on the record offering legal and moral justifications for genocide.
My prediction: Wurzelbacher’s passport application/renewal will be held up due to the outstanding warrant in Arizona (suspended driver’s license), and the shrieking harpies on the right will freak out and blame it all on the Obama administration.
Bet on it.
I might, out of morbid curiosity, just to see if the guy (and his editors) can put together something coherent,
If PJM’s editors are anything like K-Lo, I won’t hold my breath.
Face it, Joe the unlicensed tax-evading plumber, like Sarah Palin, is an attention-whore grifter.
If I thought they were sending him for his ability to perceive and accurately convey a summary of events, okay. But I think it’s pretty clear they’re probably trying to squeeze whatever juice the “JTP brand” has left in it. If he turns out to be a good reporter, great (given that he’s going on behalf of an explicitly partisan organization, this is probably already fail). But it’s harder than it looks… there’s a reason people go to school for it.
But I would wager that with a weeks time to catch up he could handle most of the jobs you guys hold and none of you could do a skilled trade like he has.
I move pianos. The skills take more than a week to learn, and some can’t be taught. You can either pick up a piano or you can’t, but more important, you either have the cojones for the job or you don’t, because you are going to spend some time under a piano as it goes up a flight of stairs.
Come out to the coast, we’ll have a few laughs and move some pianos. Then I want to know what kind of easy job you do.
Like JtP’s dream, I was also a writer, but I didn’t just decide one day to be one and then I was. Okay, I did. I sold the first piece I ever wrote for money, and I worked as a magazine editor for a decade, long enough to find out what Joe is about to learn. Piano moving (or plumbing) pays a lot better than writing, and the job never goes to Pakistan.
Me: “There’s prejudice and then there’s judging someone’s future performance on their past performance.
Has this man done anything, anything that suggests he would be well equipped to do this job?”
Jay Tea: “Gee, looks like Strowbridge pulled a Biden and plagiarized that line. I know I saw it repeatedly during the presidential campaign — applied to Barack Obama.”
You are comparing Joe the Plumber to Obama? You are a joke. No wonder your party is one senator away from being irrelevant.
“Hmm… forced sterilization for those you judge ‘defective.’ I think Strowbridge is plagiarizing again…”
And you are a liar. It’s amazing how often you lie. It’s like you truly can’t tell the different reality and your fictional world. Then again, that just makes you a typical Republican.
You’re right, comparing Joe to Barack is a joke. Joe has actually done productive things in his life.
You are a fucking idiot and should be sterilized so you don’t pass on your defective genes to future generations.
Gee, I dunno how I misinterpreted THAT as meaning I should be sterilized (with or without my consent) because you deem me to have defective genes. Perhaps it’s because I’m not a flaming, fuckwitted dipshit like you.
Who apparently does NOT have defective genes, so lacks that excuse for being the asshole you are.
J.
Crud, forgot the closing italic,
Anyhoo, only the first italicized sentence should be — it’s the only direct quote.
J.
Unless, of course, he travels to Sderot or chats with any of the 950,000 Israelis who live within rocket range of Gaza and have to spend their days making certain they’re never more than 10-15 seconds from a hardened shelter.
That’s the “fighting” you’re hoping to read about, Mr. Tea? That’s what the PJM press release is talking about when they say he’s going to “cover the fighting”?
That ought to make riveting copy.
I’m withholding judgment until there’s something to actually judge.
?!?
Mark your calendars, fellows. This here’s a red-letter day.
PJM, the staunch defenders of Israel, looking very serious by sending Joe The Plumber to get the real story.
Here’s to rehabilitating Jeff Gannon’s reputation.
“You’re right, comparing Joe to Barack is a joke. Joe has actually done productive things in his life.”
Keep up these attacks and your party will be a permanent minority.
“Gee, I dunno how I misinterpreted THAT as meaning I should be sterilized (with or without my consent)”
There you go…
You added that last part.
You lied about what I said, so fuck off.
A target rich environment,
A “license” to be a plumber is not required in every state in the union and is not an indication of a plumber’s worth. It is a barrier to entry which helps keep plumbing wages high. Often in a plumbing shop only 1 guy needs to hold a card, none the less most folks would refer to the whole crew as plumbers.
Jaim may consider himself quite accomplished, perhaps he is, stranger things have happened.
““He’s an accomplished docotr, just doesn’t happen to have his M.D. yet.” And he’s a tax evader. Frankly, what has he ever accomplished other than that?”
As if you understood anything about either the trades or medicine. Speaking of tax evasion perhaps you might contrast “Joe” and his $1200.00 that owes in state taxes with the behavior of the current chairman of the ways and means committee. LOL you hypocritical fool.
Now fafaroo considers himself witty as he works the basement theme. Gosh I can’t tell you how such remarks cut me to the very quick. Such insight, such logic. It is personally devastating, I’ll try to cope somehow. Now fafaroo is right Joe is trying to cash in on his 15 minutes of fame. By going for it he is showing himself as a guy with the guts and the ambition to take a risk and try to better himself. You know, that good old all American thing that built this country. I see your comments about Jay and genocide. I can only assume you are speaking of the recent posting regarding Gaza. If that is indeed what you refer to, it is a mark of your ignorance of the laws of war and recent history. Liberal ignorance is just barely exceeded by liberal hypocrisy.
How funny to see CS judge an American like Joe. Our northern bleeding heart chimes in with his usual repartee. CS can’t see a connection between a guy who makes a living with his hands and who has the ambition to take a chance and our forefathers who took a chance and built this country. And what is quite telling is he thinks the idea is shameful bullshit.
One great thing about the western United States was until the demographic shifts after WW2 the west was populated by those restless souls like our friend Joe.
The eastern reaches of the country were populated by those who stayed behind. The cowards never started and the weaklings died along the way once the described those who lived in the west. But alas no more, we’ve big cities now that provide a safe place for the folks who came out west last.
CS, why is it you don’t mind your own affairs up in Canada. I know you are a authoritarian socialist but you have a whole country up north to ruin why help tear this one down.
RePack,
Sincerely, too bad the writing gig didn’t pan out. Probably too much competition from all the liberal art majors in the country who don’t have enough job options. It must have blown your contemporaries away to see you throw away your career for piano moving. I consider that a young man’s game.
But don’t be so snide. In a past life I ran crews launching ships and later moved houses on my own account.
You’re not going to be able to bowl me over with hero stories about moving heavy stuff. I know how to do it. There is always room on the crew for a strong back but in the end you move the big things with your mind not your muscles.
Quaker,
Even you can’t pretend not to see a connection between rockets in Sderot and fighting in Gaza. Well maybe you can, pacificism takes a powerful ability to rationalize.
“A “license” to be a plumber is not required in every state in the union”
True but you do need one where
SamuelJoe worked in, Toledo. Minor detail.“Speaking of tax evasion perhaps you might contrast “Joe” and his $1200.00 that owes in state taxes with the behavior of the current chairman of the ways and means committee.”
-And just like Rengel,
SamuelJoe probably didn’t know he owed taxes either (as per the Lucas County Court of Common Pleas). But Rengel is a Black Democrat so that must make him a patent tax cheat and further reinforces AO’s argument, so there!One great thing about the western United States was until the demographic shifts after WW2 the west was populated by those restless souls like our friend Joe.
As in a restless soul who requires a Nashville P.R. firm, who is also on the verge of a recording contract, public speaking gigs and now a foreign correspondent? Yep, man of the people.
Well, I guess he told you guys!
PD100 stretches the limits of credibility
“And just like Rengel, Samuel Joe probably didn’t know he owed taxes either (as per the Lucas County Court of Common Pleas). But Rengel is a Black Democrat so that must make him a patent tax cheat and further reinforces AO’s argument, so there!”
To argue that Rangel doesn’t know he was evading taxes is to argue he is an incompetant ignoramus who has no business crafting tax legislation. While I wouldn’t think his color would have anything to do with knowing he was evading taxes it is perhaps his major qualification for office.
Now fafaroo is right Joe is trying to cash in on his 15 minutes of fame. By going for it he is showing himself as a guy with the guts and the ambition to take a risk and try to better himself. You know, that good old all American thing that built this country.
You’ve got to be kidding me. Less than five months ago the guy wanted to own his own plumbing business. Now we wants to try his hand at being a war correspondent? Please. If you want to sing the praises of the working man, fine by me, but to use this guy as an example of the American work ethic is a joke.
If he had taken all this attention and used it to do what he actually said he wanted to do in the first place, that would have been gutsy, ambitious and decidedly refreshing in the age of Paris Hilton. But he hasn’t. Instead, he’s desperately trying anything he can to escape the blue collar life you keep telling us he’s this great symbol of.
If Joe the Plumber keeps this up, he’s going to end up doing porn. He’s already got the perfect stage name.
I see your comments about Jay and genocide. I can only assume you are speaking of the recent posting regarding Gaza. If that is indeed what you refer to, it is a mark of your ignorance of the laws of war and recent history. Liberal ignorance is just barely exceeded by liberal hypocrisy.
What laws of war and recent history are you referring to AO? The same ones that Jay Tea was referring to? Because not only was Jay Tea full stop wrong on his understanding of proportionality as defined by international law, he went a step further.
Based on his completely false definition of proportionality, he argued that if your enemy is intent on your total eradication, their intent, and not their actual acts, gives you the moral and legal right to eradicate the enemy population first. This is nothing short of a justification for genocide.
It could be used by any country or population to rationalize genocidal policies against another because who’s defines intent? Certainly not any neutral international legal body. In this scenario India could claim that it believed the terrorist attacks in Mumbia were evidence of Pakistan’s intent to wipe India off the map and thus it would be justified in launching a nuclear attack on Pakistan. That’s insanity.
There is no international legal opinion that would allow, let alone condone, that kind of response.
Would care to actually cite any? Would you care to tell us whether or not you believe, as does Jay Tea, that at present Israel has the legal right to exterminate every Palestinian living in Gaza?
One great thing about the western United States was until the demographic shifts after WW2 the west was populated by those restless souls like our friend Joe.
Oh man, you do live in your parents basement.
You don’t know that, fafaroo.
We don’t know anything about what AO does for a living. But I’ll bet it’s nothing like Repack, who must be a loser because manual labor is part of his business, or me, who is definitely a loser because I have a part-time job to help make ends meet.
No, AO does something manly and entrepeneurially, you know, like the cowboys and such who made this country great.
And he definitely does NOT live in his mom’s basement. It belongs to his stepfather.
Fafaroo, cut the bullshit. I NEVER said Israel has the moral right to exterminate every single Palestinian.
I said they have the physical capabilities to do so, and that is indisputable. Were Israel to unleash its full military capabilities, they could quite literally wipe the Gaza Strip off the face of the earth.
Also, Israel has the “right” to kill civilians when they are being used (willingly or unwillingly) as human shields by their enemies. That’s in the Geneva Convention — combatants have the obligation to separate themselves from civilians and civilian structures. Should they not do so (such as, say, firing rockets or mortars from a schoolyard), then the persons or structures in question have lost their protected status and are valid targets — and any and all harm that befalls them is not the responsibility of the attacker, but of the combatant that tried to use them as a shield.
Does that add up to “Israel has the moral right to wipe out every single Palestinian?” Only in your diseased little brain…
J.
It must have blown your contemporaries away to see you throw away your career for piano moving.
I’m sure they’re jealous. Piano moving pays me about $100/hr because I also own the company, and they all still work for some asshole who tells them what to do, if he hasn’t already fired them. I never made more than $30,000 a year writing, even with a book published and a salaried editorial position on a national magazine. As a piano mover I own my home, I own my company, and I’m paying for my kid’s college education. I can’t be fired and my job won’t ever go away, because there are millions of pianos in the world. I am in ridiculous good health. Is there something I’m missing out of life that I could only regain by writing for money?
I consider that a young man’s game.
Whatever. I’m 63, and I do it six days a week, haven’t missed a day in a decade and I’m a long way from done. I can kick your ass on a bicycle too. Click my link.
When Hamas chooses to hide amongst civilians that is a war crime and they are responsible for the harm that comes to those civilians when the opposing force attacks them.
When Hamas chooses to hide weapons in churches, schools, hospitals etc. they are committing a war crime and are responsible for the destruction if the opposing force attacks those places.
When Hamas fails to wear a uniform that provides a distinction between themselves and innocent civilians they are committing a war crime and are responsible for the deaths of civilians when the militants without uniforms are attacked by opposing forces.
When Hamas targets civilians where there are no military targets that is a war crime.
I went through the posts in the Gaza thread and found nothing in Jay’s writing to support your contention that “at present Israel has the legal right to exterminate every Palestinian living in Gaza?” Perhaps I am mistaken, show me the cite from Jay to back up your bullshit.
As for what I personally think, the film clips of the Palestians celebrating 9/11 have permently colored my views.
The laws and customs of war give Israel the right to to attack military targets in Gaza as long as the rockets continue to fly. If those military targets are next to civilians that is the fault of Hamas and the crime is theirs. Do I care about the high number of Palestians dying Hamas is responsible for? No.
To claim Israel is committing genocide reveals a lack of understanding of what the word means. But then lack of understanding is a speciality of yours Fafaroo.
Nice niche. In my neck of the woods good pianos are given away for free every week because people don’t want the hassle or expense of moving them. A friend of mine came up with the idea of starting a used piano store stocked with free pianos. Maybe I ought to kick his ass a little bit and get him motivated. LOL, Kicking my ass on a bicycle doesn’t get you much!
oops
Perhaps I am mistaken, show me the cite from Jay to back up your bullshit.
From Jay Tea:
http://www.oliverwillis.com/2008/12/28/gaza/#comment-131103
The next comment from Jay Tea:
http://www.oliverwillis.com/2008/12/28/gaza/#comment-131103
I think Jay tea was pretty clear here: If proportionality is to be based on intent then obliteration can be matched with obliteration. Not only does Jay Tea believe that Israel has the capacity to do this, he believes it has the right to obliterate every Palestinian in Gaza. He caps this horrific insanity with a glib shrug of his shoulders. “Genocide? Eh.”
You of course, you join in with your own glib support for civilian deaths:
If those military targets are next to civilians that is the fault of Hamas and the crime is theirs. Do I care about the high number of Palestians dying Hamas is responsible for? No.
Both you and Jay Tea are dead wrong in your understanding of the legal concept of proportionality. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the opposition’s intent and, actually, has nothing to do with the what the enemy does at all.
The legal definition of proportionality governs the actions of both sides independently of each other, not in relation. Proportionality does not mean that if Hamas kills 1,000 Israel civilians, Israel has a right to kill 1,000 palestinian civilians — no matter how Hamas may have embedded themselves into the population.
Hamas’ war crimes, in other words, do not give Israel carte blanche to commit war crimes of its own. The legal concept of proportionality holds both sides responsible for their actions independently.
It’s stunning to me that anyone could believe that opposite, as you to do. Far from being the friends of Israel you think you are, you are rather endorsing the whole sale massacre of civilians on BOTH SIDES.
Here’s the actual facts laid out for you:
http://opiniojuris.org/2009/01/03/dershowitz-on-israel-and-proportionality/
Really, you guys aren’t only stupid, you’re dangerous.
There’s a long post with several links awaiting moderation.
If you can’t wait, here’s the short version: You’re both dead wrong.
To claim Israel is committing genocide reveals a lack of understanding of what the word means. But then lack of understanding is a speciality of yours Fafaroo.
Just to add, I never said or suggested that Israel was now or has ever committed acts of genocide.
What I said was, that if it did, Jay Tea, and now you, would cheer them for it. You’ve already provided your endorsements.
Only in your little fantasy world, fafaroo. Odd, though, how you manage to avoid discussing how Hamas and Hezbollah have genocide written into their very charters, and constantly affirm that as their goal…
J.
Even you can’t pretend not to see a connection between rockets in Sderot and fighting in Gaza.
And even you can’t pretend there’s any “fighting” to cover in Sderot. The fighting is in Gaza and the IDF ain’t letter reporters–including Mr. Plumber–in.
letter?
letting.
I NEVER said Israel has the moral right to exterminate every single Palestinian.
Here’s what Mr. Tea wrote, December 29 at 9:01 a.m.:
Hamas’ goal is the extermination of Israel. (Go ahead, read their charter. It’s online.)
Israel’s goal is to stop being attacked.
On that scale, Israel’s response is a gross UNDERreaction. They have the capability of completely wiping out the entire Gaza Strip, and are refraining.
If the current response is a gross under…uh, UNDERreaction, what do you think would be proportional?
Joe the Plumber or CNN. Who to believe?
“Mads Gilbert, the radical Marxist Norwegian doctor that was the focus of a Fox News report earlier today for being an anti-Israeli Hamas apologist, has been positively identified as one of two doctors caught faking CPR on a Palestinian boy that “died” in video featured today on CNN.
The segment with Gilbert shows him and another doctor badly faking chest compressions and other life-saving measures on a live boy faking death in what can only be described as political theater. The video claims to be filmed by the brother of a Palestinian teen that claims the boy was one of two purposefully killed by a missile fired at them by an Israeli drone as they played.
Lawhawk, has more on why the fake CPR is so pathetically obvious to those with actual CPR training.
CNN editors who swallowed the story of the poorly-acted video unquestioningly—no doubt because it fit the anti-Israeli narrative familiar to CNN viewers and critics—have now pulled the video without explanation, correction, or retraction.”
http://confederateyankee.mu.nu/archives/280821.php
Note the qualifier, you moron — “on that scale.” I introduced the element of “intent” into the equation. I think that Israel’s response is entirely appropriate and justified. I also think that Hamas commits war crimes on a daily basis, and its entire strategy is based on committing war crimes — and I can back those up with examples.
For some reason, though, Hamas’ atrocities are ignored, while for Israel the mere accusation is more than enough to damn them. Double standard much?
J.
I wonder what language we would speak if Quaker had been in charge of national defense at various times in our history.
I wonder what language we would speak if Quaker had been in charge of national defense at various times in our history.
I’m guessing Reality-Based American English.
I wonder what Amused Observer would have done if he got the August 6, 2001 PDB. Prob’ly gone bass fishing.
Note the qualifier, you moron — “on that scale.” I introduced the element of “intent” into the equation. I think that Israel’s response is entirely appropriate and justified.
And an UNDERreaction? And not “wiping out the Gaza strip” is a sign of restraint?
So I’m curious. What wouldn’t be an underreaction? What would be proportional? Obviously it’s somewhere inbetween what’s happening now and complete annihilation.
I wonder what language we would speak if Quaker had been in charge of national defense
French probably. Or Esperanto.
LOL,
Gosh Quaker I would have thought one of the eastern seaboard Indian dialects.
ed, I would have dropped a nuke on Berkely, might have missed some muslim terrorists but I would still have been able to clean out an infestation of antiamericanism. Then I would have gone bass fishing.
And we’d use it to Speak Truth to Power!
Odd, though, how you manage to avoid discussing how Hamas and Hezbollah have genocide written into their very charters, and constantly affirm that as their goal…
Odd that you keep missing the point that it doesn’t really fucking matter because it’s no justification or defense for committing war crimes against civilian populations.
I NEVER said Israel has the moral right to exterminate every single Palestinian.
Yeah, you only said, as Quaker points out, that proportionality should be measured by the intent of the enemy, not the force it applies. You then argue that since Hamas’ goal is to kill every Israeli, any response by Israel, up to the total annihilation of every Palestinian in Gaza, would be appropriate. This is the logical conclusion you set in motion by your warped understanding of proportionality, all of which is totally debunked in my comment above still waiting moderation.
Also, Israel has the “right” to kill civilians when they are being used (willingly or unwillingly) as human shields by their enemies. That’s in the Geneva Convention — combatants have the obligation to separate themselves from civilians and civilian structures.
This reading of the Geneva Conventions is not only totally, one hundred percent wrong, it’s pretty fucking sick. No government has a right to kill innocent civilians. You can put quotes around it all you want to give yourself some wiggle room but I can think no few other more barbaric and dangerous beliefs than this.
It is the responsibility of combatants to separate themselves from civilians and civilian targets. Deliberately concealing oneself or fighting from civilian areas is a war crime.
But if one side commits a war crime, it does not give the other side any legal justification for attacks that indiscriminately lead to civilian deaths.
What you’re suggesting is that if one side commits a war crime then everyone in the fight is free to do whatever the hell they want to do. They don’t. Each side is responsible for its own actions regardless of the actions of the other side. I don’t see why this is so difficult for you to understand. It’s basic ethics. We are all each responsible for our own behavior. If you break into my house and steal my TV, it doesn’t give me a right to break into yours and steal your stereo. If your intent was steal everything I own but you didn’t have enough time, that doesn’t give me the right to steal everything in your house, too. It’s really the same thing in international law.
There is simply no international law any where that allows or justifies the killing of innocent civilians no matter how one’s enemy is behaving. And there is no way to read the laws as written to make it so.
I defy you to find anything anywhere in the Geneva Conventions or anywhere else in international that positively asserts the right you are claiming here. Show me that quote and you win. But you won’t find it because it doesn’t exist.
For some reason, though, Hamas’ atrocities are ignored, while for Israel the mere accusation is more than enough to damn them. Double standard much?
Nobody here is denying Hamas’ war crimes. Where the pointing out the barbaric insanity of your response to those war crimes. If you want to talk about double standards, it’s bizarre that you think its perfectly okay to condemn the war crimes of one side while actually justifying the war crimes of the other. You can’t have it both ways. Either it’s wrong for both sides to fire rockets into civilian areas or it isn’t for BOTH SIDES.
What you fail to understand is that in offering a rational for Israel to commit war crimes, you make the same rational is available for Hamas to do the same.
So, fafaroo, Quaker, then please, grace us with your wisdom. What should Israel do when, say, Hamas sets up a mortar in a schoolyard and starts firing? Or starts firing rockets from right next to a hospital? Or uses a mosque as a weapons depot?
No theoretical question; Hamas has done all of them. And there’s video proof of each, repeatedly.
Come on, share your thoughts (such as they are). Tell us the moral, legal, ethical response to Hamas’ actions.
J.
Sorry, Mr. Tea. I’m not going to join you in diving into that rabbit hole again this time. I’m too tired from trying to keep up with your constant revisions:
-Israel is underreacting because they’re not wiping out Gaza.
-No, wait, I never said that.
-Well, OK if I did, so what? I blame Hamas!
-Stop picking on me!
I asked a simple question and you keep changing the subject. If Israel’s current actions are an “underreaction,” what do you think is a proportional response?
Quaker, please. You’re being stupider than absolutely necessary — and quite possibly than is legally allowed, depending on what state’s laws are applied.
Israel’s response is, in my opinion, entirely appropriate. I reject the term “proportionate,” as it contains a bias against Israel — it punishes them for being more effective than Hamas, and rewards Hamas for their ineptitude. My whole point about “disproportionate” and the obliteration of Gaza was not to justify Israel’s response, but to show as absurd the whole “proportionality” argument.
Israel’s intent is to end (or, at least, severely reduce) Hamas’ ability to attack Israel. That those attacks have been thus far highly ineffective is a meaningless point — the weapons have been getting better and better (look at how the Grad rocket, with its increased range, accuracy, and reliability, has been introduced), and there is no indication that Hamas is going to stop either the attacks or their efficacy. They are using, as I can tell, three tactics in this goal:
1) Destroy the weapons.
2) Kill the people operating the weapons.
3) Destroy the tunnels used to smuggle in the weapons.
Hamas has chosen to counter these tactics by placing the targets in and near highly sensitive areas — schools, hospitals, and mosques. It is, in essence, using its own people as hostages (sometimes willing, sometimes not so willing) to protect them. At that point, Israel has two choices: attack anyway, or not.
They have chosen, in many cases, to attack anyway. I can make the moral arguments for why this is acceptable, but I challenge you to make the argument why it is not so I can have a chance at your standard tactic — let other say things, then rip them apart. I’ve offered my own opinions and arguments on countless occasions, while you have consistently refused to put your own thoughts (such as they are) out there.
I don’t think you can. I think you’re a one-trick pony, a dedicated asshole who likes tearing down others’ arguments without ever offering your own thoughts and solutions. You’ve never put anything on the table. You don’t ever put your neck out. In short, you’re a coward and a fraud.
So go ahead. Explain why Israel should defer attacking weapons and fighters deliberately placed among civilians. Make that argument. Explain your enlightened morality and principles, and defend them.
I feel remarkably confident you won’t. Because you’re a chickenshit.
J.
Because it didn’t work in 2006 and it’s not going to work in 2008/2009. For every member of Hamas killed, ten new members decide to join.
Not that I envy the situation that Israel is in, but the whole Yellow Elephant Brigaders like Jay (Why, again, aren’t you fighting for our freedoms in Iraq?) fail to realize the simple military logic: terrorism is a technique, not a physical entity you can ever fully destroy.
Honestly Jay, _you_ calling someone chickenshit? What branch of the armed forces did you serve in again?
Jaim, have you heard of this little place called the West Bank? It used to be a major hotbed of terrorism. Ever since Israel kicked ass there a few years ago, it’s been relatively quiet. And even during the current fighting in Gaza, the West Bank is still peaceful.
Killing terrorists achieves one thing: it makes sure those particular terrorists won’t attack again.
To the Israeli government, bombs are cheaper than dead Israelis. And they’re absolutely right.
J.
“Either it’s wrong for both sides to fire rockets into civilian areas or it isn’t for BOTH SIDES.”
Brilliant observation Fafaroo, any pratical solutions or should israel commit national suicide to satisfy international opinion.
Fafaroo and Hamas have developed a perfect method of waging war. By firing weapons while hiding amongst civilians Hamas has made it impossible for Israel to do anything in a way that would satisfy Fafaroo.
The laws of war are like the official rules of poker. Many different editions with rules both written and unwritten.
In reality once the bullets start flying and the fog of war descends upon the field certain niceties fade into meaningless platitudes. Most of this talk of laws of war is meaningless.
As an intellectual exercise to determine responsibility several what if scenarios are quite illuminating.
If Israel quits responding to Hamas attacks what will happen?
If Hamas quits attacking Israel what will happen?
The world in general will excuse muslim terrorists of just about anything. Likewise international opinion will blame Israel for just about anything.
If Israel responds to certain legitimate economic, humanitarian, and political grievances Palestinians have, the rationale for the attacks will disappear, and they will cease or at least diminish. Or do you claim that none of the Palestinians’ grievances are legitimate? Should they meekly accept whatever conditions are imposed on them?
If the Hamas attacks cease unilaterally, Israel will consider that it has “won”, and any future terrorist attack, whether by Hamas or not, will be met with massive bombing on this scale. Hamas is not going to set that precedent.
On the other hand, there is plenty of precedent to show that massive “disproportionate” retaliation has not worked in the past. Not in 2006. Not in 1982. Hell, 1982 CREATED Hizbollah, and 2006 left it politically stronger than ever.
And before anyone claims that Hamas can’t be negotiated with because of their charter, remember the PLO charter used to say the same thing. Eventually, Israel came around to negotiating with Arafat.
So, AO and fellow cons, what’s the solution? How far are you willing to carry this strategy?
Eventually, Israel came around to negotiating with Arafat.
Very true. I heard an NPR report about a year ago by an anonymous professor in Iran – a member of the revolution – claiming that Ahmedinejad was still using the rhetoric of the revolution, and was more reasonable than he was made out to be in the western media. I’m not certain that’s true for Mahmoud, but it definitely was for Arafat.
And before anyone claims that Hamas can’t be negotiated with because of their charter, remember the PLO charter used to say the same thing. Eventually, Israel came around to negotiating with Arafat.
And the renouncement of that part of the PLO charter was a key precondition of the negotiations.
When Hamas gets to that stage, then negotiations will actually have a point. Until then, by Hamas, own charter:
(Peace) Initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement.
There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiative, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility.
Until that goes, I say take them at their word and no negotiations.
J.
-You’re being stupider
-you’re a one-trick pony, a dedicated asshole
-you’re a coward and a fraud.
-you’re a chickenshit.
Compelling points, Mr. Tea. However, they don’t make your arguments consistent and your big, blustery name-calling doesn’t compensate for the deficiencies in your reasoning.
This is a discussion board. You post here. You write up your little thoughts so that others might admire them. But as soon as anyone calls you out on your carelessness with facts, your misleading and one-sided presentations, or your constant changing of the subject, you start whining that you’re being picked on.
Face it, Mr. Tea. If only those who agreed with you responded to your posts, the silence would be quite disheartening.
Now here’s something from those flaming Islamists at the American Conservative magazine for you to ponder:
Israel’s intent is to end (or, at least, severely reduce) Hamas’ ability to attack Israel.
How’s that working out for them?
Leave it to Quaker. He focuses on the garnish, and ignores the substance of my remarks — that’s the stuff that he so carefully doesn’t quote.
And instead of offering his own thoughts, he goes and finds some conservative to hide behind. I will not speculate as to the reason, but two possibilities come to mind: he has no courage of his convictions, or no actual convictions of his own. I consider either equally plausible.
I stand by everything I said about him that he quoted — for all the reasons he didn’t quote.
J.
No theoretical question; Hamas has done all of them. And there’s video proof of each, repeatedly.
I don’t know what Israel should do. I’m telling you what it cannot do. It cannot do what you think it should do which is as you say “attack anyway” regardless of the potential civilian casualties of said attack.
You write:
My response is that you have already it made it plain that you think it is morally acceptable for Israel to inflict massive, indeed, genocidal civilian casualties in Gaza.
I’m telling you that this kind of tactic is a war crime as noted above in the comment that is finally through moderation:
The bolded section is the legal limit on Israel’s ability to wage war in Gaza. When it exceeds that limit, it has entered the realm of war crimes. Simple as that.
Now you’re welcome to make the argument that Israel’s attacks at this point have not exceeded that limit. That is not, however, what I and Quaker have been arguing with you about.
You and AO shrug your shoulders at civilian deaths in Gaza because you believe:
1. Hamas is responsibile anyway no matter what Israel does.
and/or
2. The civilians are responsible themselves because they elected Hamas as their chosen representative and are thus complicit in its crimes.
Both positions are not only wrong legally, they are repugnant ethically and morally.
AO adds:
Brilliant observation Fafaroo, any pratical solutions or should israel commit national suicide to satisfy international opinion.
So as you see it Israel’s options are either national suicide or commit to a strategy of war crimes and genocide? Seriously?
This is a complex, complicated region and situation. Whatever the answers are to the problem,they are equally complicated and complex, requiring multiple approachs across multiple levels.
War crimes and genocide are not included.
I don’t have the answers to this problem but I do not that one of the answers is not the kind of glib acceptance of civilian death and destruction that you two have embraced.
Leave it to Quaker. He focuses on the garnish, and ignores the substance of my remarks
Mr. Tea, your remarks have no substance. They are all “garnish.” (That’s a comically benign term for your vulgarities, but we’ll let it stand.) Anything that might charitably be called “substance” evaporates under the mildest scrutiny–and then you pretend you never wrote it in the first place.
You act as if it’s somehow unfair for me to respond to your writings. Why else would you post them here if not to win a response?
Quaker, here’s a 100% garnish-free comment for you to critique.
By most estimates, between 20% and 35% of those killed by Israel in the current fighting have been civilians. (This excludes those Palestinians killed by Hamas directly, such as the two young sisters by a stray rocket and the accused “collaborators” being rounded up and shot — even in hospitals.) This means that, despite Hamas’ best efforts to use the civilians of Gaza as human shields, Israel is still attacking with 75% to 80% accuracy. That is absolutely phenomenal.
Would you care to discuss whether or not Israel should continue those attacks?
J.
Leave it to Quaker to own your ass yet again Jay.
Honestly, I’m pretty certain you’ve gotten dumber since the Republican party was wiped out in November.
But please, continue. You amuse all of us greatly.
And btw, I’m still curious about the “chickenshit” smear you lobbed. I asked, and I’ll ask again — what branch of the armed forces did you serve in?
ed, I would have dropped a nuke on Berkely, might have missed some muslim terrorists but I would still have been able to clean out an infestation of antiamericanism.
You fucking traitorous bastard. You’re advocating dropping a nuclear weapon on American soil and your fellow Americans, and you have the shriveled -up balls to call others “anti-American.”
You are pathetic.
Would you care to discuss whether or not Israel should continue those attacks?
The stated aim of the attacks is to remove Hamas’ ability to launch rockets into Israel. As yet, they haven’t achieved that goal–the rockets are still flying daily.
Personally, I have my doubts that this military effort can eliminate the rocket attacks. So what’s the next best option?
“I don’t think you can. I think you’re a one-trick pony, a dedicated asshole who likes tearing down others’ arguments without ever offering your own thoughts and solutions. You’ve never put anything on the table. You don’t ever put your neck out. In short, you’re a coward and a fraud. ”
The complete lack of self-awareness present in that post is breathtaking.
So what’s the next best option?
Aren’t the IDF really good at covert stealthy operations, a la Munich?
Why can’t they infiltrate Gaza and find out where the rockets are coming from with a little less, shall we say, bravado? You only make things worse by killing civilians.
Would you care to discuss whether or not Israel should continue those attacks?
The legal question is whether or not the continued civilian deaths are “expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.”
As Quaker points out, the stated goal of the operation, to remove Hamas’ ability to fire rockets into Israel has not yet been achieved. If and when it becomes clear that the goal is not achievable through air strikes, then Israel should cease and desist from further such attacks that would pose a significant risk to the civilian population and find another strategy.
The main point here is that the idea you put forward that any and all civilian deaths in Gaza are acceptable because of Hamas’ tactics or its intent is simply not legally or morally tenable.
correction, that should read: “The legal question is whether or not the continued Israeli attacks are …”
Maybe when Joe the Plumber starts sending back his dispatches, we’ll understand the situation more clearly.
Fafaroo is thinking things through, we have far differing thoughts and attitutdes but he is thinking things through.
But first,
“You fucking traitorous bastard. You’re advocating dropping a nuclear weapon on American soil and your fellow Americans”
Duros your dimwittedness stretchs the limits of human imagination. Now back to the big people’s table.
Fafaroo points out the legal limitations of Israel etc. As I pointed out earlier what is known as the laws of war are rules and customs both written and unwritten going back centuries. The written rules are contained in a series of treaties dating back 100 years or so. Not all nations are signatories to all treaties. In practice they are routinely disregarded in times of war and are virtually meaningless.
Faint hearted people are repelled by what they term war crimes, ESPECIALLY crimes committed by the side they favor least. Fafaroo is disturbed by these alleged war crimes, he gives lip service to Hamas atrocities but saves his harshest critism for Israel presumably because they are more efficient in their killing. He doesn’t touch the fact that Hamas targets nothing but innocents nor does he show have much fervor in putting any resposibility on Hamas for violating one the most basic of the “laws of war” of hiding and placing weaponry amongst civilians. He offers no solutions but some boilerplate about multiple approaches across multiple levels.
As George Orwell put it “Peaceful men sleep safe in their beds because rough men stand ready in the night to do violence on their behalf”
That is just the way it is, an additional burden upon those who do our hardest work. One would think that these more tender and compassionate souls would be appreciative of these rough men but they are not.
Muslims are not held to the same standards as the rest of us. Any action no matter how violent, no matter how trivial the reason, is enough to warrant much more than mild disaproval. Where are the cries from the left when Iran makes horrific threats against Israel? When rockets target innocents on a daily basis?
Egypt exercised soveriegnty over Gaza before she lost the land by losing the war. I would return Gaza to the Egyptions by decree. Seal the border between Israel and Gaza and let Egypt worry about Gazan needs. Let Egypt be responsible for the behavior of Hamas in Gaza. If a rocket flies into Israel let Egypt pay the price of retaliation until they get their old citizens to toe the line.
Two questions Fafaroo, seriously.
What would happen if Israel did not respond to Hamas targeting her civilians, where would it end?
What would happen if the Gazans quit attacking Israel?
Fafaroo is disturbed by these alleged war crimes, he gives lip service to Hamas atrocities but saves his harshest critism for Israel …”
Uh, no. I save my harshest criticism for you and Jay Tea who have repeatedly embraced the idea that Israel is free to kill whomever it wants because Hamas is evil.
You guys keep coming back to arguments like this:
You fail to recognize the simple legal and moral concept that Israel is responsible for its actions independently of what Hamas is or does.
You suggest that I am placing an “additional burden on Israel”. Yeah, well, if you see maintaining the core principles of civilized, democratic nations as an additional burden, I really don’t know what to say. Barbarism certainly is easier, AO.
I’m not suggesting and never have that Israel doesn’t have a need and right to respond to Hamas’ provocations which I do consider war crimes.
I am opposed to the belligerent attitudes of people like you and Jay Tea who believe that there certain circumstances when killing innocent civilians, whether wittingly or unwittingly, is an acceptable response to a threat.
Both you and Jay Tea have shrugged off the deaths of civilians while arguing that you do not favor war crimes or genocide.
If that’s your position then you have to admit that there are indeed legal and moral limits to Israel’s response.
Fafaroo,
I argue that the term war crime and the idea that there is a fixed set of laws of war is ambiguous at best.
I argue that Hamas abides by almost none of the laws of war and almost all the actions of Hamas are war crimes.
I argue that Hamas is the aggressor and is getting what it deserves.
“Both you and Jay Tea have shrugged off the deaths of civilians while arguing that you do not favor war crimes or genocide.
If that’s your position then you have to admit that there are indeed legal and moral limits to Israel’s response.”
I speak only for myself but you are correct, given the provacation indeed I do shrug off the deaths of Palestinian civilians as being the resposibility of Hamas for both deliberately hiding behind them and staging their weapon systems in civilian proximity.
Where we differ is that I don’t feel Israel is approaching either the legal or moral limits of this situation. You disagree, I get it. I might point out that you are using the word genocide incorrectly, it makes your case sound better but diminishes your credibilty for those who understand its meaning.
But I ask you again questions that I feel are at the core of this whole situation.
What would happen if israel did not respond to random attacks upon her innocent civilian citizens who are targed specifically by Hamas?
What would happen if Hams quit attacking innocent civilians?
I speak only for myself but you are correct, given the provacation indeed I do shrug off the deaths of Palestinian civilians as being the resposibility of Hamas for both deliberately hiding behind them and staging their weapon systems in civilian proximity.
Where we differ is that I don’t feel Israel is approaching either the legal or moral limits of this situation.
There it is. It’s OK with you if lots more Palestinians die. Nothing to add.
I speak only for myself but you are correct, given the provacation indeed I do shrug off the deaths of Palestinian civilians …
Yeah. This pretty much speaks for itself. I’m with Quaker. There’s simply nothing else that can be said in response.
Yep,
It’s ok.
“Nothing to add”
No need for context in a post from the Kucinich school of international diplomacy. How about taking a shot at those two different scenarios at the bottom of the post Quaker. Any thoughts on that.
What would happen if israel did not respond to random attacks upon her innocent civilian citizens who are targed specifically by Hamas?
What would happen if Hams quit attacking innocent civilians?
Don’t need to guess. Just look at June through November of this year and you have your answer.
What would happen if Hams quit attacking innocent civilians?
Don’t need to guess. Just look at June through November of this year and you have your answer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_2008
Gee, Hamas stopped firing rockets while it was digging a tunnel under Israel’s border to kidnap more soldiers (remember Gilad Shalit? He’s still a kidnapping victim — if he’s still alive). Then Israel discovered the tunnel and blew it up, and that’s when Hamas went back to firing missiles and rockets.
So there’s Quaker’s answer: Hamas stops the rocket attacks while it’s working on another style of attack. And Israel, when the rocket attacks ease up, looks to see what Hamas is up to.
I particularly like this quote:
December 19th The cease fire agreement ends. During the six month cease fire 329 rockets and mortar shells were fired.
Some “truce…”
Don’t need to guess. Just look at June through November of this year and you have your answer.
Hmm… let’s do that, shall we?
Courtesy Wikipedia:
Israel attacks a 250 meter tunnel going from Gaza and under its border, claiming the tunnel is designed to capture additional Israeli soldiers and hold them hostage.
So, when Hamas stops firing rockets, they start digging tunnels to kidnap Israeli soldiers (such as Gilad Shalit, who — if he’s still alive, and I doubt it — has been a Hezbollah hostage for two and a half years now). That’s a real improvement.
But did they really stop firing rockets?
December 19th
The cease fire agreement ends. During the six month cease fire 329 rockets and mortar shells were fired. For the six months prior to the truce 2278 rockets and mortars were fired into Israel.
So when Hamas “ceases fire,” they only average about 1.8 rocket and mortar attacks a day. An interesting definition of the term…
Thanks for asking the question, Quaker.
J.
Is it really so shocking that yes, indeed, there is a double-standard when it comes to Israel? As others have pointed out, nobody here is denying that Hamas is a terrorist organization. And the whole point of civilized nations is that _they shouldn’t stoop to the level of terrorists_ (not to mention the US torturing people and locking up its own citizens without due process).
This isn’t some namby-pamby, weak-minded “soft” approach to international relations. This is the bedrock of modern international relations. We, as civilized societies, _aren’t supposed to act like the bad guys_ re: indiscriminate targeting of civilians.
I’ll be the first to admit that Israel is in a very difficult spot. But I’m also convinced that the current actions against Gaza, including dropping bombs on top of apartment buildings to kill one Hamas leader, and meanwhile killing 20 more Palestinians who were perfectly innocent, is a war crime.
But at this point the IDF is going to do what it wants to do. And when they declare operations over, Hamas, just like Hezbollah in 2006, will declare a major victory. And the Israeli people will realize their political and military leadership has failed them yet again and the rest of the world will continue to see Israel as a rogue nation.
On top of all that, it certainly doesn’t help that the reason Hamas runs Gaza is _directly due to US intervention_ re: holding elections that toppled Fatah.
So when Hamas “ceases fire,” they only average about 1.8 rocket and mortar attacks a day. An interesting definition of the term…
So here i was hoping to avoid posting another comment on this thread when I saw that Jay Tea posted some “facts”. Well, how could I resist, being a curious fellow and all. So I googled the sentence “During the six month cease fire 329 rockets and mortar shells were fired.” And came across a wikipedia article with this information:
Oh gee look, it’s the passage Jay Tea quotes above. And what do we see there at the end? Why it’s something called a citation number. Why, what’s a citation you ask? Well, Jay Tea, it’s a reference to the source that the author used to get their facts. What do you say just for fun we follow this “citation” where it leads?
Why it’s a PDF document published by the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center at the Israel Intelligence Heritage & Commemoration Center. The PDF is titled: “The Six Months of the Lull Arrangement”.
In this PDF we find the source of the information quoted in the Wikipedia entry.
But you know what? I’m not all that familiar with the terms of the Lull Agreement so, again, as a curious kind of fellow I decided to read further than just the basic numbers. Who knows, maybe I might find some more information that will help me to better understand those numbers, to you know, get the whole picture, as it were.
Here’s what I found:
So wait a second. There are “other Palestinian terrorist organizations”? I thought the evil mooslims were like one great big undifferentiated borgbrain. You mean, like, not all palestinians are exactly alike and under complete and total command of Hamas?
There are actually other terrorist organizations in Gaza?
This was, naturally, shocking to me. And then I read this:
Holy Shit! That’s when it hit me. Jay Tea, you are the dumbest motherfucker on the internet and that puts in the running for dumbest motherfucker in the universe.
You will believe anything, say anything that suits your worldview without one ounce of effort expended to verify the information you have and how to understand it.
I really don’t know what to say. Really. It’s stunning. Beyond fucking words how goddamn naive, gullible and flat out fucking stupid you are.
You state emphatically that Hamas was responsible for the rockets fired during the ceasefire and quoted various numbers to “prove” your case. But did you ever once stop and think, fuck, i got these number from a wikipedia entry, maybe I ought to check its sources?
Hell no! You just cut, paste, put on your smug hat and stuck your thumb up your ass. You earned it!
Now anyone who knows how to use google can do exactly what i did and learn a little something about the world.
As for you, Jay Tea, I wish this would be the last time one of us had to prove you totally and utterly wrong. I wish you would be so embarrassed for yourself this time that you’d just apologize and leave, never to return.
But of course you’ll be back acting as if this time too, never happened. You be here spouting more total horse shit and calling everybody names and we’ll all have to go through this again.
Sigh.
That was a masterful take-down.
Oh, noes, not the “rogue Palestinian organizations that Hamas can’t control” argument! It’s my Kryptonite! Help me, I’m meeeeelting! I’m meeeeelting!
This is the same old Palestinian game they’ve played for years. Some of the major players (Hamas, Fatah, Islamic Jihad) announce a cease fire. Israel stops shooting back. Everyone’s happy. Then one of the players starts its attacks. The others repeatedly state that they’re still honoring the truce, and demand Israel (or, more often, the world make Israel) show “restraint.” The attacks continue until Israel finally hits back against the attacking party, and — ta-da! — once again Israel has “broken the truce.”
That was one of the purposes why Israel and the US backed elections for the Palestinians — it would put in place a Palestinian government that could be held responsible for acts of war being launched from Gaza and the West Bank. One of the core definitions of a government is that it must have a monopoly on force; the governing body of the Palestinians would, by definition, have to control these “rogue elements” and keep them from launching their own attacks on Israel.
In the West Bank, it has largely worked — the twin threats of further Israeli counterattacks and a Gaza-style Hamas coup has kept Fatah “honest” in both not launching its own attacks and the “rogue” elements from doing it, either.
In Gaza, Hamas simply turned a blind eye (or, more likely, tacitly gave its permission and assistance) to these “rogue” elements as they carried out their attacks. Hamas had zero interest in actually acting like the duly-elected governing body they became.
Often, the first test of a new government is to establish the monopoly of force — that the government, and the government alone, is the only body that can raise a military and wage war. The United States learned this lesson with Shay’s Rebellion and the Whiskey Rebellion. Israel learned this with the Altalena Incident.
The Palestinians have yet to have their version of this — and until they do, then they’re going to keep on having their “rogue elements” continue to carry out the attacks that they don’t want to claim responsibility for.
Once Gaza was unoccupied and the Palestinian Authority was recognized as the legitimate government, that argument suddenly lost all its plausibility. It’s only now that we’re seeing that actually carried out.
J.
So Jay, what about the Israeli’s response to the cease fire? They were suppose to remove the blockades and restore aid shipments to the level needed to support the population in Gaza, something like 700 shipments per week. Shipments did increase, at a mere trickle of 20 per week.
And yet, you would argue that Israel fulfilled it’s end of the agreement?
Typical double standard time, I see, Southern. When Israel doesn’t abide by 100% of its commitments (even when they’re coupled to actions by the other side), it’s justification for war crimes like kidnapping and deliberately attacking civilians. When the Palestinians keep 1% of their commitments, that’s grounds for rejoicing and a sign that they do, truly, desire peace.
Every cycle of the “peace talks” starts the same way: Israel is called upon to make some kind of “good will gesture” and release prisoners or give back territory. The Palestinians are never asked to make any kind of comparable measure. And when the Palestinians eventually say they can’t keep their pledges (but insist Israel keep its pledges), that’s when the “rogue elements” start terrorizing again.
Israel did half the right thing when they pulled out of Gaza completely. Now if only Egypt would take it back — after all, they held it up until the 1967 war.
J.
ypical double standard time, I see, Southern.
Do you have any concept whatsoever of irony, Jay?
How, exactly, did Israel hold up its end of the bargain in this particular cease fire? 20/700 needed shipments per week would seem to be the most meagre token. It takes both sides for a cease fire to work.
No one here has excused Hamas for firing rockets into Israel. On the contrary, several posters have rightly condemned attacks on Israeli civilians. And yet you cannot admit even the smallest lack of will on Israel’s part towards improving conditions in Gaza and upholding its end of the agreement.
This is the same old Palestinian game they’ve played for years.
Right. A game that the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center at the Israel Intelligence Heritage & Commemoration Center is just another willing dupe of.
http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/site/content/T1.asp?Sid=18&pid=121
In Gaza, Hamas simply turned a blind eye (or, more likely, tacitly gave its permission and assistance) to these “rogue” elements as they carried out their attacks.
Jay Tea, please. Please just go the fuck away.
The attacks continue until Israel finally hits back against the attacking party, and — ta-da! — once again Israel has “broken the truce.”
You know, Jay Tea, this is again another piece of bullshit from you. There’s a comment in moderation dealing with the main point but this deserves note as well.
Jay Tea, this is not what happened in this particular ceasefire. The lull agreement ended when Hamas declared it over and started firing again. No one, as far as I know, could blame Israel in that instance.
But this is just another example of you ignoring the basic facts of a situation, preferring instead to cling to a narrative more suited to your insane worldview in which civilian deaths aren’t a tragic consequence of war, but something to be rationalized and even cheered.
Faffer, I’m in awe.
Mr. Tea, see how easy it is to check your facts before you post something totally wrong and embarrassing?
From your very own source:
In the six months the arrangement was in force, 329 rockets and
mortar shells were fired at Israel, most of them during the month and a half after November 4.
Now what was it I wrote that you were trying to take down? Oh yeah, it was this:
Don’t need to guess. Just look at June through November of this year and you have your answer.
Add what my sister Friend posts:
what about the Israeli’s response to the cease fire? They were suppose to remove the blockades and restore aid shipments to the level needed to support the population in Gaza, something like 700 shipments per week. Shipments did increase, at a mere trickle of 20 per week.
Buh..buh…but they were digging a tunnel!
Has the Israeli invasion stopped the rocket attacks yet, Mr. Tea?
“I would have dropped a bomb at Berkely…still would have been able to clean out an infestion of antiamericanism.”
Too bad there’s probably no hell for AO to go to when he/she dies, because he/she certainly would deserve that destination for writing something like that.
No, Mr Rotter, you don’t understand. AO wasn’t seriously saying he would drop a nuke on Berkeley. Only that it would be funny as hell if all those dirty fucking hippies were dead. Haw Haw!
Anyone remember that book from the 1970s, “Truly Tasteless Jokes”?
You know, the one that had chapters like “Polack Jokes”, “Black Jokes”, “Cancer Jokes”, and “Dead Baby Jokes”?
He wrote that book. Seriously.
Rotter,
Its entertaining to see a left wing athiest contemplate the downside of his “reality based” pragmatism. You’re a bit of a Pollyanna not to metion more than a little dense.
Brucie, such keen insight and rapier like wit. LOL, its not the dirty hippies that are the problem, its the dirty anti american hippies.
It is sad to see the Faaroo and Quaker school of diplomacy held up as a viable model. After each rocket attack Israel should show a softer more gentle approach. Certainly if she eases up after Hamas aggression that targets only the innocent Hamas will see the error of its ways and embrace dialogue to pursue peace. The appeasement method has such a long history of success.
Fafaroo tries to take Jay to the woodshed regarding the behavior of Hamas during the lull. He berates him for not clicking through a citation and uncovering the truth. Fafaroo further castigates Mr. T for rationalizing civilian deaths without acknowledging that by law and custom Israel is within her rights to attack military objectives despite their proximity to civilians and the “war crime” and the civilian deaths are again by both law and custom the responsibility of Hamas.
Interestingly enough if one goes to the site of the organization in question there is a little tidbit that guts much of Quakers cheerleading.
“The fundamental contradiction between the needs of the civilian population and Hamas’s policies is clearly manifested by the continuing attacks made by Hamas and the other terrorist organizations on the crossings between Israel and the Gaza Strip, the lifelines for the Gazans, and by the difficulties imposed by Hamas on their operation.
Although for years Hamas has tried to falsely represent the situation in the Gaza Strip as a humanitarian crisis and even a “holocaust,” in effect it prefers carrying out terrorist attacks against Israel to caring for the basic interests of the Gazans.
For the past few years the Kerem Shalom, Sufa, Karni, Nahal Oz and Erez crossings, through which fuel and other vital supplies are delivered to the Gaza Strip, have been repeatedly attacked with rocket and mortar shell fire as well as attempted mass-casualty and suicide bombing attacks.
The rocket and mortar shell fire at the crossings continued during the six months the lull arrangement was in force. In addition, the terrorist organizations have publicly targeted the Ashqelon power plant, which provides the Gaza Strip with 65% of its electricity”
Fafaroo further castigates Mr. T for rationalizing civilian deaths without acknowledging that by law and custom Israel is within her rights to attack military objectives despite their proximity to civilians and the “war crime” and the civilian deaths are again by both law and custom the responsibility of Hamas.
Amused, Jay Tea and yourself are just plain wrong on this point. You mentioned “law and custom.” After all this time, neither you nor Jay Tea have cited a I single international law that would support such a suggestion. I’ve cited experts quoting the exact law that supports my argument. Instead of addressing this actual fact, you went off on a tangent about the nature of international law itself. But now you are back citing international law as supporting Israel.
So which is it and where is the citation of the actual law?
As for Jay Tea’s bullshit, saying “Hamas fired the rockets,” and “Hamas deliberately allowed others to fire the rockets” is two different things. The former is simply not true based on the information provided by the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center at the Israel Intelligence Heritage & Commemoration Center, which is not, as far as a I can see, an organization given to publishing Palestinian propaganda.
At the same time, Jay Tea accepts as true some data provided by the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center while rejecting the truth of the Center’s contextualization of that data–in the same report.
It falls to Jay Tea to explain the reasoning behind his selective use of the Center’s information. Rather than explain this, he went off on another tangent — funny how often you guys do this — about the nature of sovereign nations.
Jay tea has argued that “the first test of a new government is to establish the monopoly on force.” I wonder if this is a universal test that Jay Tea applies to other governments, like say, the governments of Iraq and Afghanistan. Have either of those governments passed that test, Jay Tea? I don’t think so. And yet I wonder if he’s one of those types who are now telling us that the US has succeeded in, at least, Iraq.
The point being is that Jay Tea and yourself don’t care about facts or consistency. It’s all spin all the time with you guys.