It’s our land!
No, it’s our land!
Ceasefire.
Suicide bombing, rocket attack.
Retalliatory rocket attack.
Condemn!
U.S. negotiated ceasefire.
Rinse, lather, repeat.
The sooner we get off oil the sooner we can leave the yahoos in Israel and in the Palestinian/Arab world to their own devices, free to blow each other to smithereens.
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As with almost anything that went wrong in the last half of the nineteenth century and the first half of the twentieth – damned British.
Of course, “ceasefire” means “Hamas cuts back on the attacks and Israel doesn’t hit back.”
J.
All of this is a result of ancient family dysfunction . . . .
Only they can TRULY fix it.
Funny how no one ever condemns the Hamas rocket attacks in to Israel, until Israel strikes back in defense of itself. Then there is a one-liner buried somewhere in the U.N.’s latest condemnation of Israel.
Rockets have killed 20 Israelis over the past 8 years, and in the last 2 days, over 12 times that have been killed in Gaza. Can you see why this would be condemned more than the former?
That said, it should all stop, and peace here would deal a death blow to the islamists worldwide.
I don’t know anyone in Hamas, so I can’t say why they’re launching rockets into Israel. If I had to guess, though, I’d say the rockets are intended to provoke a reaction from the Israeli military.
And that would make it about the stupidest tactic in the history of warfare.
Getting rid of oil dependence won’t be enough. We need to eliminate religion dependence as well. Until then, the US will push policies designed to aid Israel only long enough for Jesus to return and kill everybody who isn’t a True Christian©.
“Rockets have killed 20 Israelis over the past 8 years, and in the last 2 days, over 12 times that have been killed in Gaza. Can you see why this would be condemned more than the former?”
No.
One side starts the fight, the other is better at fighting.
If anything, I blame Hamas for the Palestinian deaths, as they had to know this would be the outcome of the rocket attacks.
“I don’t know anyone in Hamas, so I can’t say why they’re launching rockets into Israel. If I had to guess, though, I’d say the rockets are intended to provoke a reaction from the Israeli military.”
You are 100% right.
“And that would make it about the stupidest tactic in the history of warfare.”
You are about 90% right.
Hamas only has power because the Palestinians hate the Jews. If there was peace, they would have to actually fix their economy, deal with internal security issues, and other domestic problems.
Therefore, it is easier to provoke Israel into attacking, as a method of maintaining political power.
You have sorely under simplified the situation, Oliver. Oil has nothing to do with our connections to Israel. Our relationship is much deeper and meaningful than that and apparently, something you can’t realize.
Yes, Oliver, don’t discount the deeply virtuous AIPAC in your discussions.
Stowbridge, are you kidding me with that ridiculous over simplification? You really think this is all about the Palestineans hating the jews and starting a fight they couldn’t win?
Gaza…
…is a jail.
…is starving.
And Hamas didn’t elect themselves without a lot of help from us.
Google homework:
Israel west bank wall
Shebaa Farms
Hebron illegal
Sabra and Shatilla
Amnesty International war crimes Israel
None of this is to say that Hamas, Hezbollah, and numberous other factions aren’t also at fault, but Israel has played, and continues to play, a HUGE role in its own regional problems.
Scrape, scab, scrape, scab, scrape, scab…ad infinitum.
Were there not powerful forces that wanted to keep it going and people being crushed and broken it would almost be funny.
As it is – we are all responsible – to some degree. We (the “West”) permitted the “creation” of Israel. Ergo, we created the reaction to Israel and we have allowed the festering “Gaza, West Bank” concentration camps to exist far too long.
There is enough “blame” – we need “solutions.”
“You have sorely under simplified the situation, Oliver. Oil has nothing to do with our connections to Israel. Our relationship is much deeper and meaningful than that and apparently, something you can’t realize.”
No oil means the Arabs have no power. No power, means they actually have to work on dealing this their own problems instead of trying to pick fights with others.
Exactamundo. Oil gives the Arab states a crutch in lieu of developing rational (well as rational as it gets) governments. Oil forces us to turn a blind eye to things like Saudi Arabia’s poor human rights record. If we have an oil alternative, we have no reason to legitimize the Saudis, if the US doesn’t legitimize the Saudis the Saudi people don’t see us working with the oppressors, and on and on. Yeah, look, I know Israel is going to be our ally for the forseeable future, but oil puts us in the game more than your average international dispute.
In my dreams the Israelis and the rest of the region have to work their shit out without America being the Big Daddy (Israel) or the Big Satan (the rest of the Middle East).
“As it is – we are all responsible – to some degree. We (the ‘West’) permitted the ‘creation’ of Israel. Ergo, we created the reaction to Israel and we have allowed the festering ‘Gaza, West Bank’ concentration camps to exist far too long.”
Two points…
1.) The Arabs were allied of Nazi Germany and requested that Adolf Hitler extend his final solution to the Middle East. Don’t pretend they are innocent victims of the West. They choose sides and lost the war.
2.) For roughly two decades Egypt controlled Gaza Strip and Jordon controlled the West Bank. At no time did these two Arab nations try and form a sovereign Palestine nation. Nor did they try to integrate them into their countries. They kept them in squalor and used them as human weapons against Israel.
And as a bonus…
3.) Arabs living in Israel has move rights than Arabs living just about anywhere else in the Middle East.
Yeah, except for all the innocent people who will die when the feuding-for-dollars game no longer pays, and things turn to all-out war.
it is easier to provoke Israel into attacking, as a method of maintaining political power.
Awesome.
So if the strategy works, Hamas is in charge of a…I was going to say “country,” but it’s not even that…some land that’s impoverished, blockaded, and under relentless attack.
Like I said: Stupidest tactic in history. Second stupidest? That’s easy: the Israeli response.
The militant members of Hamas (and yes, as I’m sure many here are aware, there was a more politically oriented faction which has been rendered almost totally irrelevant) want to hold onto power. They do this by provoking massive over reaction from Israel, which feeds the long standing narrative that Israel is a brutal oppressor, occupier, and colonizer. Israel, by which I mean predominantly the Likud party, lives by much the same creed, i.e. that Israel is a state under constant siege from enemies all around her and must crush all threats with overwhelming force, even if that means killing hundreds for every handful of Israelis injured/killed(JayTea’s definition of “not hitting back”). Rinse and repeat, as has been said.
Uhhh, meaning what, that anyone who was allied with the Nazis is getting what they deserve, including their children? Does that mean that Japan and Italy need to watch their backs? What about descendants in Germany of WWII nazis? Is this an entire nation thing or just certain bloodlines? Does this take into account the European imperialism that dominated the Middle East for ages, from the Crusades on up to the present day? Iraq didn’t even exist until the British decided to make it. As for Egypt and Jordan, I suppose it could be said then that since many other nations kept slaves, it was no big deal that the U.S. did, too, since everyone else did it.
Does it really seem like Israel is making any progress using the current model? They have to know that with U.S. backing and their own…ahem…”unconventional weapons”…cough…no nation dares invade them, so any nonsense about being wiped off the map is just that, nonsense. There is simply no way Hamas or Hezbollah can do the job, even as proxies for Iran, Syria, etc. Those two groups wouldn’t even exist (and in fact, didn’t exist before the Reagan era) without Israel’s occupation of the West Bank, oppression of Gaza, and invasions of Lebanon. Israel’s hardline only seems to strengthen the type of public support organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah need to survive. It’s much the same with Iraq and Afghanistan. We bomb and occupy and the locals grow to hate us and provide shelter and support to insurgents/terrorists/freedom fighters/militants/mouseketeers. If we can see the problem with our own foreign policy, why should we think Israel will
avoid the same fate?
For the record, Oliver is right about Saudi Arabia. That nation, and our ties to it, is at the core of many of our current problems.
Sadly, it seems that SUV and large truck sales are up thanks to cheap gas (’cause you just know it’s going to last…screw you climate change!).
Take a look at the demographics of the Gaza Strip, on Wikipedia or whatever. Hamas has more “human shield” cannon fodder than it could have wished for, pawns to be martyred in their big game of checkers. (Not chess – that game requires more strategic awareness than is on display in Gaza.) A few hundred casualties are a drop in the bucket, and mean more to Hamas in propaganda terms than in human terms.
This may explain Egypt’s uncaring attitude in the past. Life is cheap when every woman has five or more kids, and that happens because Yasser Arafat & his successors explicitly pursued a policy of “outbreeding Israel”. Israel can destroy all the rockets, but defusing the “demographic bomb” will be a bit more difficult.
I love ya O-dub, but this is shit post. You can’ glibly assert that Israel is something Americans should “get away from” when in fact we’re propping up their entire country with military aid and have been for decades. It’s no mystery that Israel is in many ways a puppet state of the US, and you can’t just “get away” from them without looking at the billions in military aid that both Dems and Republicans are happy to send them every year.
There’s a lot more going on here than your post acknowledges.
Man, it’s a strange day when I find myself wanting to argue ALONGSIDE Strowbridge.
Counting bodies is one way of measuring “proportionality.” Another, better way, is intent.
Hamas’ goal is the extermination of Israel. (Go ahead, read their charter. It’s online.)
Israel’s goal is to stop being attacked.
On that scale, Israel’s response is a gross UNDERreaction. They have the capability of completely wiping out the entire Gaza Strip, and are refraining.
Conversely, Hamas is showing absolutely no restraint in their attacks, and shows NO interest in a peaceful settlement.
And Hamas is the duly-elected government of Gaza.
To measure “proportionality” purely on the basis of body counts is to punish Israel for being more effective, and to reward Hamas for their incompetence.
After all, it is Hamas that defined “truce” as “we’ll attack a bit less, and you don’t hit back,” it was Hamas that declared the truce over, and it was Hamas that escalated the hell out of their attacks…
J.
@C.S.Strowbridge & Oliver Willis
“No oil means the Arabs have no power.”
Excuse me but exactly what oil does Hamas have? And if you say the Palestinians have oil simply because they are of the same religion as Saudi Arabia, you’re sorely mistaken.
Israel’s response is a gross UNDERreaction. They have the capability of completely wiping out the entire Gaza Strip, and are refraining.
So you’d have us believe that Israel would be justified to slaughter women and children by the tens of thousands?
Good to know.
If there’s no oil there’s less of a reason for US involvement. At this point I’m simply uninterested in constantly mediating between the Israelis and everyone else. A pox on the suicide bomber’s houses, a pox on the right-wing Israeli warmonger’s houses.
A Jewish friend of mine regularly has said “New York and Florida are nice, why the hell do you want to live in the middle of the desert?”
Yes, how kind of them not to the Gaza strip into glass.
Bill L.: They do this by provoking massive over reaction from Israel, which feeds the long standing narrative that Israel is a brutal oppressor, occupier, and colonizer.
But if Israel continues to massively overreact, it isn’t just “a narrative”. They are being brutal, etc.
Exactly Sean, exactly.
I guess we can all see, as if there were any real questions, why JayTea thinks attacking Iraq over 9/11 is a fair exchange. After all, Usama is an arab, and he is hiding amongst a bunch of other arabs. Okay, he’s not in Iraq, but seriously, you can’t waste time being picky and there’s no oil in the mountains of Pakistan. Nor is there much hope for massive no bid contracts, endless profiteering, or permanent military bases for launching more legitimate and proportioned reprisals against the rest of the Middle East. Engendering hatred in the general population by using our superior firepower to murder thousands of innocent civilians is simply good strategy.
Now I know why I keep coming back here. It’s to constantly remind myself just what I believe in. I have trouble remembering, so I turn to people like Bill L. to remind me of what I believe.
Seriously… your synopsis of my beliefs totally reeks of teh dum, Bill. I have REPEATEDLY argued that Saddam was not only not proven to have had anything to do, but in all likelihood completely ignorant of it prior to the attacks. My support of his overthrow have only the most tangential relationship with 9/11 — the notion that terrorists and those who support terrorists need to be held accountable, and Saddam’s support of terrorists was absolutely indisputable. (And that was only one small part of my beliefs.)
The doctrine of “proportionality” has been grossly perverted. Originally, it was intended to mean that force should be proportional NOT to the power of the attack, but to the stated goals of the force-user. In this case, the stated goal of Hamas is the obliteration of Israel, and the stated goal of Israel is to end the incessant rocket and mortar attacks. As Hamas is the legal governing body of Gaza, they are responsible for the attacks, and have done NOTHING to stop them. So Israel has attacked Hamas to degrade their ability to continue to launch attacks — and it’s working; the number of rockets being fired has dropped dramatically.
And no, this is not a sign of restraint from Hamas, who has ratcheted up their rhetoric since Israel started hitting back.
Israel says it will stop the attacks as soon as they get assurances that the rocket and mortar attacks will cease. Hamas says it won’t stop them.
(shrug)
More dead Hamas? Works for me.
J.
More dead Hamas = children and innocent civilians, J. Does that work for you, too? Your idea that the response has to be proportional to the rhetorical threat – regardless of how impotent Hamas is to carry through on any threat to the existence of Israel – is chillling.
Neither Israel nor Hamas are blameless in this debacle. Most of the apologist for Hamas – at least the ones here, are willing to condemn the rocket attacks on Israel.
The apologists for Israel, on the other hand, seem willing to ignore the humiliation forced upon Palestinians at checkpoints, the collective punishment of an entire population, including house demolitions and 24 hour curfews, and the shutting down of supply lines – during the truce – that provided food, medicine, fuel, and emergency supplies to the civilians of Gaza, who end up being held hostage both by Hamas and the Israelis.
As a long term policy, the treatment of Palestinian civilians by Israel is insane. Do you really think that those children huddled in fear in basements in Gaza tonight are going to grow up believing in any kind of peace process?
The doctrine of “proportionality” has been grossly perverted. Originally, it was intended to mean that force should be proportional NOT to the power of the attack, but to the stated goals of the force-user.
Nonsense.
Wherever did you acquire such a notion, Mr. Tea? You’re telling me that if I set out with a plastic spoon with an intent to destroy the Chinese Army, they would be justified in launching a nuclear attack against the U.S.?
But, JayTea, doesn’t the U.S.support terrorists? We funded Usama back in the 80’s, right? We supported the Contras? Yes? We supported terrorists in Iran, correct? Aren’t we bolstering radical Sunni groups, who, if I recall, were, and are, the principal architects of attacks against U.S. soldiers and were behind 9/11? So we effectively caused 9/11, then, I guess, what with being such a huge state sponsor of terrorism (and I barely scratched the surface with the tiny handful of examples listed above).
So, taken to it’s logical end, you are in favor of the U.S. bombing itself.
You is teh hilarious, JayTea. You actually read my post and stopped at “9/11,” thinking you got the entire context. Obviously you missed the part about the whole Iraq invasion being a pretext for other neocon ambitions, with 9/11 being just a convenient context to justify any and all attacks on sovereign nations filled to the brim with unruly brown people and lots of potential profit.
Not a defender of Hamas, but what options are available to them?
They can either submit meekly to every demand of the much stronger military blockader, Israel, or they can resist. If they are to resist, how? Holding hands and singing “We Shall Overcome” in Arabic? Or with the rockets they possess?
They are never ever ever going to submit. And Israel can’t kill them all. So, eventually, absent a change of strategy by Israel, they will win. If it takes a hundred more years, they will win. If what they win is an even more desolate moonscape than what they have now, they will win.
Unless Israel wises up, and does SOMETHING differently.
Mr. Tea wrote:
The Council on Foreign Relations says Mr. Tea is MSU. Again.
And by the way, Jay, Israel broke the cease fire, not Hamas, with an incursion into Gaza on November 4-5 which resulted in the deaths of six members of Hamas. They also held a family hostage and used their home as a base of operations.
No, no, QiaB. Jay must be talking about the Bush Doctrine of proportionality.
i.e., if you poke me with that stick, I’ll just have to kill your entire family.
Quaker, IF Israel “broke” the truce on November 4-5, then what, pray tell, would describe the daily rocket and mortar attacks prior to that? The continuing holding of Gilad Shalit as a hostage? What the fuck kind of a “truce” is that?
As for the dead civilians… under the Geneva Convention, combatants are required to keep their distance from innocents. If they hid among them, then any and all liability for injuries and deaths falls not on the attacker, but on the person using them as human shields.
I am intensely curious about what would be considered a “proportional” response by Israel to literal daily attacks where Hamas is trying, to the best of their ability, to kill Israeli civilians. I am reminded of a blind man standing on a street corner firing a gun at random a couple of times a day. No, the odds of him hitting anyone are incredibly slight, so we should wait until he actually does hit someone before we stop him?
The core presumption here is that there was a “tolerable” level of Hamas attacks that Israel should have to put up with.
THERE IS NO LEVEL OF CONSTANT ATTACK, REGARDLESS OF HOW INEPTLY CARRIED OUT, THAT A NATION SHOULD TOLERATE. Protecting its citizens from foreign attack is one of the PRIMARY duties of a government. A government that will not go to any lengths to stop ongoing attacks has no business calling itself a government.
SO glad to see so many of you cheerfully siding with Hamas, who started timing its missile attacks to coincide with schools starting and letting out, and sent out a message “welcome back to school!” That cheers every single time their rockets and mortars kill or injure civilians. That considers kidnapping an acceptable negotiation tactic. That considers suicide bombings an acceptable tactic.
Oh, and here’s a real irony. IF a group of determined Palestinians DID try to emulate the Civil Rights movement we had here in the US and started singing “We Shall Overcome” and other forms of passive resistance, it would probably work better than more killings. Like the Civil Rights movement, like Gandhi’s struggle against the British, they are facing a foe that bases much of their resolve on their self-perceived moral superiority. Passive resistance undercuts that and forces the “oppressor” to answer to its own citizens, who are repulsed by the usual violent tactics of the security forces.
Unfortunately, the Palestinians have a tendency of killing those who most want peace, and have a remarkable history of “never missing an opportunity to miss an opportunity.” Whenever they are given any kind of a choice, they inevitably choose the most self-destructive one.
Hamas, it must be restated, is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood and is dedicated to the obliteration of Israel and the creation of an Islamist state. (READ THEIR FUCKING CHARTER, YOU IDIOTS — IT’S ALL IN THERE!) So when I say “more dead Hamas? Works for me,” I mean that absolutely. I will not weep for a single dead Hamasshole, and — in accordance with the Geneva Conventions — will hold THEM responsible for the deaths of their ever-present human shields.
J.
I am reminded of a blind man standing on a street corner firing a gun at random a couple of times a day. No, the odds of him hitting anyone are incredibly slight, so we should wait until he actually does hit someone before we stop him?
Of course not. Neither should we level the entire city block where he stands.
Have given up your “original intent” argument this easily, Tea?
A government that will not go to any lengths to stop ongoing attacks has no business calling itself a government.
Fair enough. It may also forfeit any reason to call itself civilized.
“…lives by much the same creed, i.e. that Israel is a state under constant siege from enemies all around her…”
And if you think this is not true, you are fucking stupid.
Rocket attacks against Israel are practically a daily occurrence. Rocket attacks are an act of war.
“Uhhh, meaning what, that anyone who was allied with the Nazis is getting what they deserve, including their children?”
Hey dipshit, it’s Hamas that targets children, not Israel.
“Does that mean that Japan and Italy need to watch their backs? What about descendants in Germany of WWII nazis?”
Have they continued the war for the past 60 years? If not, your analogy is faulty.
“No, no, QiaB. Jay must be talking about the Bush Doctrine of proportionality.
i.e., if you poke me with that stick, I’ll just have to kill your entire family.”
No, but if you fire rockets at my civilians, I have the right to make sure you don’t have the ability to keep firing.
Also, if YOU house rockets inside civilian housing, YOU are guilty of war crimes, not the people who destroy that building.
Strowbridge,
I am not “fucking stupid” and I’ll thank you not to insult my wife. And let me say that it was you who made the “they were in bed with the nazis” rationalization. I was pointing out that what certain arab leaders/communities did in the 1940’s shouldn’t mean that their descendants should continue to be punished, which seemed to be your argument. You then misread what I wrote and went off on a tangent about who targets children.
You are siding with JayTea. Really, that should give you pause all by itself.
Israel is not “under seige” from enemies all around her. Period. It’s not that Israel doesn’t have intensely hostile neighbors, they clearly do. It’s simply that they are not “under siege.” That’s a military term for, ironically, exactly what Israel is doing to Gaza (a blockade). In fact, Israel isn’t pinned down on any front. They invaded Lebanon at will, attacked Syria in a similar fashion, bombed Iraq when it suited them, casually disregarded U.N. mandates and continue to colonize the West Bank, and they are widely understood to have a nuclear arsenal of several hundred warheads. Do I need to go into the tremendous U.S. military and economic support they get? Do you want to get into a comparison of casualty rates for Israelis versus Palestineans? Guess who comes out on top by a wide margin?
And that’s been the whole point. Not that Hamas is justified (they aren’t), but that Israel’s response only makes the problem worse. So long as there are situations like these, where the number of dead Palestinian children alone nearly equals the entire number of Israeli civilian casualties in the past year, Hamas will enjoy a potent propaganda victory and the cycle of violence will only continue.
Here’s some background on the situation from another “dipshit,” Juan Cole.
Israel is digging a potentially huge hole for itself.
Bill:
Siege: “any prolonged or persistent effort to overcome resistance.”
Look up things like “siege tactics” and “siege engines.” It’s a perfect description of what has been happening in Sderot.
And I will repeat my challenge: Hamas declared its “truce” where it merely throttled back on its attacks, not stopped them entirely (and built up its weapons supplies while its people suffered — they got plenty of guns, no butter). Then it declared an end to the “truce” and escalated the attacks by a huge factor. What the hell SHOULD have been Israel’s response?
Let’s look at a few possibilities:
1) Negotiations: Hamas, in its very charter, REJECTS any negotiations or compromises.
2) Appeal to help from the international community: when has that EVER resulted in anything good for Israel?
3) Targeted strikes in response: Well, duh, that’s what they’ve been doing. Unfortunately for the Palestinians, Hamas has put most of its military assets in and around civilians, essentially turning the Palestinian people into human shields (some willingsly, some not).
And so what if Strowbridge and I happen to have similar viewpoints on this issue? I’m chalking it up to the “broken clock syndrome,” and I’d bet that he does the same.
Hamas literally demanded this conflict, and did everything it could to bring it about. I won’t spare any tears that they got their wish.
J.
I would think that after all the collateral damage from “targeted air strikes” in Iraq and Afghanistan and the uproar they caused among the general population, we would have learned to be wary of such a tactic. I could actually get behind more targeted strikes like the ticking tunnel operation.
As for the cease fire, both sides couldn’t stop screwing with each other.
The point, *sigh*, AGAIN, is that Israel is working against its own interests with this assault by driving Palestinians to Hamas rather than away from it and to Fatah. If conditions improved and people could look forward to decent social and economic services, then Hamas would likely find itself quickly turned out with nowhere to stage their attacks. Locals would be loathe to jeopardize their livelihoods and security. On the other hand, if you try to force the entire region into submission, and they are forced into a corner where they literally have nothing left to lose, then the opposite occurs and opportunists like Hamas (or Hezbollah, in Lebanon) can come in and take power.
An interesting analysis on the situation from a year ago, particularly considering current events.
A “siege”, despite your truncated definition cited here, is generally understood to mean a situation in which one military opponent has the other surrounded, and attempts to “starve them out.”
I hate when you tell people to “look things up” or “work on their reading comprehension”, you pretentious asshole.
Tell the people of Sderot that they’re not under siege, asswipe. If you have to live in fear of daily attacks out of the blue, designed to kill you or drive you from your homes, when you have to keep in mind the nearest bomb shelter at all times, that’s close enough to a “siege” for most people.
What’s going on Sderot is not that different from the sieges against medieval castles and fortresses — you have attackers outside using modern-day siege engines to attack over the walls (in this case, the border) and rain terror down from the skies. They’ve just upgraded from catapults and trebuchets and mangonels to missiles and mortars.
J.
Has Sderot spent the last several years under a complete economic embargo? Can the folks at Sderot get medical help when they need it? Are food and medical supplies readily available, or are they cut off from all outside contact, including journalists and international observers? Are they able to leave the city?
Oh, gosh, Quaker, that makes it ALL better. That makes it like the missiles and mortars don’t matter at all. In fact, I bet the people of Sderot PREFER the daily random chance of getting blown to bits over the alternatives.
And apparently you missed the story that in the last day or two, Israel dispatched 100 trucks into Gaza with food, medicine, fuel, and other humanitarian relief. While Hamas refuses to let wounded Palestinians cross into Egypt and Egypt is shooting at any who try to flee across the border, Israel is still giving assistance to the people of Gaza. (In addition, of course, to killing terrorists, which is always a good thing. Note, also, that so far Israel’s civilian to militant kill rate is about 1:3, while Hamas is about 2:1… (that’s Israel has killed about three terrorists for every one civilian, while Hamas has killed two civilians for every one military.)
I hope that doesn’t fuck with your tiny little mind too badly…
J.
if you fire rockets at my civilians, I have the right to make sure you don’t have the ability to keep firing.
Also, if YOU house rockets inside civilian housing, YOU are guilty of war crimes, not the people who destroy that building.
I don’t disagree.
I hope that doesn’t fuck with your tiny little mind too badly…
Say, that’s an incisive point, Mr. Tea: “It’s a siege if I say it is and if you disagree, you’re stupid!”
You’re down to defending your own hyperbole? Awesome!
Actually, Quaker, if you had more than three neurons to rub together, you’d have understood that I was referring to Israel doing more to help the Palestinians than Hamas (their legally elected government) or Egypt (their brethren). As usual, this is another case where keeping the Palestinians as victims suits the propaganda of those who speak most loudly about their concern for them.
J.
Actually, Quaker, if you had more than three neurons to rub together, you’d have understood that I was referring to Israel doing more to help the Palestinians than Hamas (their legally elected government) or Egypt (their brethren).
Oh really?
You’re telling me that when you wrote this:
…in response to this:
…you were NOT discussing whether or not Sderot is under siege?
Mr. Tea, you seem to be creating your own definitions for words as well as your own time-space continuum here. Things don’t become the way you wish them to be just because you stamp your little feet and shout.
If you want to engage in a bit of overstatement and characterize the rocket attacks on Sderot as a “siege,” have at it. The fact that some notice the exaggeration doesn’t mean they’re necessarily willing to fire the rockets themselves.
Logic never has been your strong suit, has it?
George Washington agrees with Oliver
The problem with simply condemning Israel for overreacting is that no one is saying what Israel should do in the face of constant rocket attacks. People who claim Israel is not under siege need only look at the schools built around Gaza that are concrete bunkers with double roofing so that if a rocket strikes the school’s roof only the top layer caves in and not the roof as a whole. Again, how is Israel supposed to respond to an enemy who wishes to see the destruction of Israel more so than it cares about the well being of its own people?
I know I’m scoring points on you, Quaker, when you have to nit-pick tiny details to avoid the facts I cite. Let me repeat the salient point that I thought might endanger your tender mind:
And apparently you missed the story that in the last day or two, Israel dispatched 100 trucks into Gaza with food, medicine, fuel, and other humanitarian relief. While Hamas refuses to let wounded Palestinians cross into Egypt and Egypt is shooting at any who try to flee across the border, Israel is still giving assistance to the people of Gaza. (In addition, of course, to killing terrorists, which is always a good thing. Note, also, that so far Israel’s civilian to militant kill rate is about 1:3, while Hamas is about 2:1… (that’s Israel has killed about three terrorists for every one civilian, while Hamas has killed two civilians for every one military.)
There. All nice and together, in one tidy package, with no distractions or diversions for you to obsess over.
J.
Somebody please correct me if I’m wrong here, but if the people of Sderot – or any city/region – felt truly under siege it seems they’d do the sensible thing and move north and protect their families. I don’t pretend to be an expert on Israeli psychology, and any possible ‘hell no we won’t go’ attitude therein, but I know if I really thought my kids were going to catch rocket fire at soccer practice, that would certainly trump any symbolic alamo mentality on my part.
I know I’m scoring points on you, Quaker, when you have to nit-pick tiny details to avoid the facts I cite.
Whatever, Mr. Tea.
Once again, cornered, you resort to, “I wasn’t talking about that. What I was really talking about was…”
And then off we go on another of your inventions. You call it nitpicking. I call it noticing when you change the subject.
Whether the Israelis have sent trucks of food or not really isn’t relevant to the discussion that was going on. That you introduced this factoid in the midst of your previous discussion doesn’t make the previous discussion disappear.
Maybe if you cover your ears with both hands and shout, “LA! LA! LA! LA!” that will work.
if the people of Sderot – or any city/region – felt truly under siege it seems they’d do the sensible thing and move north and protect their families
Some have. Many haven’t.
Mr. Tea might find himself alarmed to realize he has the company of Jimmy Carter on this issue. However, I suspect that Mr. Tea would quickly accuse Mr. Carter of being an apologist for the attackers unless he was willing to characterize the rocket attacks as a “siege.”
As is so often the case with American proponents of Israel, any disagreement, no matter how insignificant, brands one a jihadist.
And apparently you missed the story that in the last day or two, Israel dispatched 100 trucks into Gaza with food, medicine, fuel, and other humanitarian relief.
By the way, Mr. Tea, which agency of the Israeli government is sending this aid into Gaza?
I’ll stand by while you decide what you were “really talking about” this time.
“I was pointing out that what certain arab leaders/communities did in the 1940’s shouldn’t mean that their descendants should continue to be punished,”
What fucking punishment? Unless you think Israel existing is punishing Arabs.
Or are Germans today being punished because Germany lost territory in World War I and II?
If you are talking about the attacks of today, well, that’s a direct result of near-daily rocket attacks.
“You are siding with JayTea. Really, that should give you pause all by itself.”
It does. But I don’t judge an argument based on who says it or how they say it. I judge arguments based on the facts.
“Israel is not ‘under seige’ from enemies all around her. Period. It’s not that Israel doesn’t have intensely hostile neighbors, they clearly do. It’s simply that they are not ‘under siege.’ That’s a military term for, ironically, exactly what Israel is doing to Gaza (a blockade).”
Okay, so you are not fucking stupid.
You are momentously fucking stupid.
Do you really think splitting hairs will win any converts to your side?
(On a side note, Israel doesn’t surround the Gaza Strip or the West Bank. Egypt and Jordan share borders. Why can’t the Palestinians find work in those countries? Why must they travel into Israel to find jobs?)
Israel is surrounded by hostile nations THAT ATTACK IT ON A NEAR DAILY LEVEL.
Got it?
This is not theoretical here. This is reality.
Unless you believe Israel does not have a right to defend itself, they are not punishing the children for the sins of the father.
“…and they are widely understood to have a nuclear arsenal of several hundred warheads.”
Widely understood?
And it was widely believed that Iraq had WMD. Unless you talked to the real experts, that is.
“Do you want to get into a comparison of casualty rates for Israelis versus Palestineans? Guess who comes out on top by a wide margin?”
Guess who starts the fights? Guess who started practically every fight?
If you punch a guy and bloody his nose, then he hits you back and breaks your fucking jaw, that does not mean it’s more culpable than you are.
If this pattern repeats itself hundreds of times over the course of 60 years, you are still to blame for starting each fight.
“And that’s been the whole point. Not that Hamas is justified (they aren’t), but that Israel’s response only makes the problem worse. So long as there are situations like these, where the number of dead Palestinian children alone nearly equals the entire number of Israeli civilian casualties in the past year, Hamas will enjoy a potent propaganda victory and the cycle of violence will only continue.”
It’s only a propaganda victory as long as people like you blame Israel when Hamas started the fights.
“Somebody please correct me if I’m wrong here, but if the people of Sderot – or any city/region – felt truly under siege it seems they’d do the sensible thing and move north and protect their families. I don’t pretend to be an expert on Israeli psychology, and any possible ‘hell no we won’t go’ attitude therein, but I know if I really thought my kids were going to catch rocket fire at soccer practice, that would certainly trump any symbolic alamo mentality on my part.”
Two points:
1.) Do you have any idea how small Israel is? There’s not a part of Israel that isn’t under constant threat of attack, whether its from rockets or suicide bombers, pipe bombs, etc.
2.) One final note, you just blamed the victim of the attacks for not running away. Do you realize how fucking wrong that is? It’s like blaming a woman who is raped by her boss, because she didn’t quit her job when the sexual harassment started.
I think the major issue here is a matter of one side looking at the wrong map.
They are used to seeing a map like this…
wordtravels.com/images/map/Israel_map.jpg
Look at the size of Israel compared to Palestine. Israel has more land, more people, more resources, etc. They are obviously oppressing the Palestinian people.
However, the conflict is not between Israel and Palestine. It is between Israel and the Arab world.
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/League_of_Arab_States,_including_Western_Sahara.png
You can barely see Israel on that map.
Even looking at a map of just the Middle East…
quranbible.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/middle_east_951.jpg
Israel is clearly smaller than its neighbours. Nor do they have nearly as many resources. (How many of those hostile countries have oil, for instance?)
Israel is not the oppressor here. It’s the one that has been bullied for the past 100 years.
democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385×254088
Cenk Uygur for the win.
Hell, I thought Hamas winning the election was good news for the region, because it is a lot more difficult to run a country and blow one up, and being forced to deal with domestic issues would have forced them to mature as an organization. (The same thing happened in Ireland, by the way.)
I do disagree with a couple points here. For instance, I think building the illegal tunnels into Israel would be considered a violation of the cease fire. At least it should be. It would be a poorly written document otherwise.
Secondly, you can’t just look at the results to judge proportional response. Hamas places its weapons in nominally civilian buildings. Of course they are going to have more civilian casualties. (On a side note, by doing that, I believe Hamas has committed war crimes.)
Sorry, Parthenon, this 24-hour flu has really kicked my ass. But Strowbridge made the points about fleeing quite thoroughly; 1) the missiles are getting better and longer-ranged all the time; and 2) it smacks of “blaming the victim.”
Oh, and Basement: I don’t have the specific agency that sent the relief, but here’s a quite from Ynet:
Meanwhile, Barak authorized the transfer of humanitarian aid to Gaza in an unprecedented scope. Some 100 trucks carrying blood units, provisions, medicines and 10 ambulances are scheduled to enter the Strip on Monday. Fuel for the power station and cooking gas will be shipped into the Strip as well.
Oh, and I’m blaming the flu for for not catching on to your little tactic here. I’m arguing the points of the issue; you’re arguing against me. In other words, while I’m trying to explain why Israel is doing the only thing it can, you’re busy trying to prove me wrong, shut me up, and play “gotcha” with me. I suspect you really don’t even have much of an opinion on the matter; you’re just knee-jerking against me. Flattering, but pointless.
J.
2.) One final note, you just blamed the victim of the attacks for not running away. Do you realize how fucking wrong that is? It’s like blaming a woman who is raped by her boss, because she didn’t quit her job when the sexual harassment started.
Oh, no, that’s not what I meant at all. I certainly didn’t mean to come across as blaming the Israelis for being in the way of the rockets, not a bit.
All I was trying to say was this: If the attacks were as intense and frequent as some would have us believe, it seems logical to me that a lot of families would get the hell out of dodge.
Now as to JT’s and your point that the rockets reach further these days, enough to reach you anywhere in a country the size of Massachusetts, well, I didn’t know that. I had thought I read a couple of years back that only those relatively near Gaza had much to worry about from rocket attacks.
Ahh, Strowbridge, steady as a rock and twice as smart.
Putting aside the fact that you apparently believe that Israel’s treatment of Gaza and the Westbank (and putting aside the issues surrounding it’s multiple invasions of Lebanon)is completely legitimate no matter how extreme, I have to ask a simple question:
Can you read?
I never placed the blame for the current situation on Israel. I said that many of their actions were reprehensible and only feed into the cycle of violence in the region, but I never let Hamas, Hezbollah, or anyone else involved off the hook. Nor have I ever said Israel has no right to defend itself (I even pointed to an incursion into Gaza that technically violated the cease fire but was justifiable as it was carefully targeted to hit only those Hamas members involved in digging tunnels into Israel). That’s your fantasy to continue justifying your juvenile attacks on people who can see the world in more shades than black and white.
“And it was widely believed that Iraq had WMD. Unless you talked to the real experts, that is.”
Holy shit, that’s some ego you have.
I’ll let Juan Cole (a well respected expert on the Middle East, but feel free to give your awesome intellect more credence regardless of reality) take this one:
Or you can do the wikipedia thing.
“Guess who starts the fights? Guess who started practically every fight?
If you punch a guy and bloody his nose, then he hits you back and breaks your fucking jaw, that does not mean it’s more culpable than you are.
If this pattern repeats itself hundreds of times over the course of 60 years, you are still to blame for starting each fight.”
I’ll let the intellectual lightweight Glenn Greenwald take this one:
“Israel is not the oppressor here. It’s the one that has been bullied for the past 100 years.”
Israel was created when again? How exactly are Israel’s neighbors oppressing it? Are arab nations living on Israeli territory and dictating the lives of Israeli citizens? Yeah, more semantics, particularly to those in the West Bank and Gaza. Isreal is certainly a victim of terrorism, but they are not oppressed. You don’t just get to pick and choose your words regardless of the meaning. That’s how terrorists become freedom fighters and wars become police actions.
Read and maybe open your mind a tiny bit to what many of the people involved in this discussion are saying.
For years, the Palestinians used Qassam rockets, which have a range of about 10 km. They’ve recently started using a derivative of the Grad rocket, which have a range of up to 30 km.
If they aren’t checked, then it’s clear that the Palestinians will just get better and better missiles and rockets…
J.
Once again, Hamas is playing the Israeli government like a fiddle. The assholes who run Hamas can’t provide a real future for their people, so they demagogue them to death by making themselves look like the little heroes against the Goliath of the IDF. Israel responds disproportionately, and Hamas gets even more moral support not just from the Arab world, but from America and Europe as well. (As usual, anti-Israeli demonstrations took place throughout Iraq as well. How’s that whole “stabilize the middle-east” looking these days Bush?)
This all failed in 2006 for Israel, and it’s going to fail again in 2008/2009. Expect massive firings in the IDF and lots of politicians losing their jobs over yet another botched attempt to combat a technique (terrorism) as opposed to a tangible enemy. The carnage will continue and yet again Israel and America will be made to look very, very foolish.
“Once again, Hamas is playing the Israeli government like a fiddle.”
The Israeli government has no ‘good’ options, however, they do seem to choose the worst choice of their limited selection.
Personally, I think they should get the Church of Latter Day Saints to start posthumously baptizing all the leaders of Hamas. Maybe that would be a threat Hamas would fear.
I’m not so certain that Israel chose the worst choice this time.
The West Bank was causing major problems. They blew the crap out of it, it’s been relatively quiet ever since.
Hezbollah in Lebanon was waging war against northern Israel. Israel invaded, and they’ve been relatively quiet ever since.
Hamas in Gaza was attacking Israel ceaselessly. Israel’s blowing the crap out of Gaza, and rocket attacks have fallen off…
Strowbridge, your idea about the Mormons might actually have some merit…
J.
Neither Israel nor the Palestinians are blameless in this mess. (Nor the U.S., for that matter.) The idea that condemning Israeli tactics and policies regarding the Palestinians is tantamount to excusing terrorism or condoning Hamas is rather insulting, and something that most of the posters here would normally vilify, if the topic were anything other than the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
The fact is that Israel controls the occupied territories, and thus under international law (and common decency) has a responsibility towards the people living there that is not shared by the surrounding Arab countries.
There are an extimated 10,000 members of Hamas in Gaza, plus about another 15,000 security forces. That’s among a total population of 1.5 million people, who are being collectively punished for the actions of 2% of their fellows. You think Israel is a small country? Try to imagine 1.5 million people crammed into a region slightly larger than twice the size of DC, under constant bombardment by Israeli missiles.
Gaza has been under a blockade for nineteen months. Very little is allowed to pass through the Israeli checkpoints in the way of food, medical supplies, and fuel. Malnutrition among children in Gaza is rampant. They show signs of anemia and stunted growth. Now, you may blame Hamas for the situation, but don’t forget that Israel and the U.S. rejected the results of the fair election that put Hamas into power. Israel immediately froze all assets of the government of Gaza, and withheld tax payments that it collects from Gazans for months, which meant that civil servants and police were not able to be paid. Gaza is not allowed to use its coast line for either import or export. Everything must come through Israel. The economy is in shambles because of the blockade. And before you blame the Palestinians for putting a “terrorist” government into place, recall that Hamas at the time was supplying much needed services in the region such as hospitals and schools, that the PA was unable or too corrupt to supply.
None of this excuses the rocket attacks against Israel by Hamas. But the situation needs to be put into context. It is often argued that, if Mexico were lobbing grenades into Arizona, no matter how ineffective, that we would go in and wipe them off the map. That may well be, but I would like to think that at least some of us would ask why Mexico was bombing Arizona in the first place. We could get in to the illegal settlements, the orchards and farmland destroyed, the checkpoints and 24 hour lockdowns, and all of the other humiliations that the Palestinians have suffered during the occupation. We could also point out the suicide bombings, threats, and rocket attacks on Israel. Who started it all, who is most to blame is rather pointless at this juncture.
What is not pointless is the humanitarian catastrophe that is now happening in Gaza. That, to my mind, should be the main concern, not deciding who is the biggest asshole in the region. Regardless of what Hamas has done or said, the humane thing would be for Israel to declare a ceasefire and allow aid to reach the 1.5 million innocent civilians who so desperately need it.
Interesting points, Southern. Most of them wrong, but interesting.
1) Gaza is NOT occupied. It has been certified Judenfrei for several years now.
2) There may be 25,000 Hamas members, but Hamas is the legal government of Gaza. They were elected to represent the people.
3) The blockade? It’s been remarkably effective at staunching the flow of weapons into Gaza, hasn’t it? It’s almost as if Hamas put getting weapons as their top priority, and didn’t put any thought to the well-being of their people.
No, strike that. It’s EXACTLY like that.
4) Israel has been allowing humanitarian relief in. In fact, Israel has been supplying humanitarian relief — just in the last couple of days, 100 trucks with food, water, medicine, and the like has been sent in from Israel.
This stands in stark contrast with the situation on the Egyptian-Gaza border. There, Hamas has been refusing to allow wounded people to be evacuated into Egypt, and Egypt has been shooting at healthy people trying to flee.
5) Israel has been very, very precise on its attacks so far. Hence the casualty rate that is, by the best reports so far, 75% Hamas militants. It’d be better, but Hamas tends to put its weapons, stockpiles, and other critical military facilities in and around civilians — such as the bomb factory at the Islamic University in Gaza, which has also been used as an arsenal for Hamas (Fatah once seized over 2,000 AK-47s there, along with RPGs and ammunition) and kidnapped Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit was held there for most of his captivity.
About 87% of all the Palestinians have been adult males. Statistically, this is highly unlikely to be random chance. Especially considering that roughly 50% of the Gaza population is female, and 50% is under the age of 17. If Israel were randomly killing Palestinians, then it would be close to 25% each adult males, adult females, male children, and female children. Instead, it’s 87.5% adult male, 2.5% adult female, and 10% children (not differentiated by sex).
J.
sigh…
87% of Palestinian Casualties have been adult males.
J.
Meanwhile, Barak authorized the transfer of humanitarian aid to Gaza in an unprecedented scope. Some 100 trucks carrying blood units, provisions, medicines and 10 ambulances are scheduled to enter the Strip on Monday. Fuel for the power station and cooking gas will be shipped into the Strip as well.
Bwaha! Nice cherries, Tea. The trucks full of aid? They were from Syria and Jordan. The Israeli government, in a gesture of great humanitarian goodwill, stood aside and waved the trucks through, avoiding a confrontation with two neighbors more powerful and well-suuplied than the people of Gaza.
How did that little detail escape your notice? Or did it?
I’m arguing the points of the issue; you’re arguing against me. In other words, while I’m trying to explain why Israel is doing the only thing it can, you’re busy trying to prove me wrong, shut me up, and play “gotcha” with me. I suspect you really don’t even have much of an opinion on the matter;
My opinion was offered at the outset of the thread. If you missed it, just use the little scroll thingy at the right and you can zip right up there and give it a peek.
Now do I have the rest of your comment right? You come into this thread and:
declare that Israel would be justified to “wipe out” Gazamischaracterize the doctrine of proportionality
call other posters stupid because they notice you’re exaggerating the meaning of the word “siege”try to pass off humanitarian aid from Jordan and Syria as a kindness from IsraelAnd now you’re feeling ill-used because I did the other readers here the trifiling service of noticing your errors?
Poor, poor Mr. Tea. If I were you, I’d be looking for an excuse like “I have the flu” also.
Bah. Apparently I bungled the list tags or they don’t work here. Mr. Tea, if you can’t make sense of the list, I’ll be happy to untangle it for you.
You make my point for me, Quaker. Look at all the energy you put into taking down my arguments. You don’t bother putting forth your own opinions, your own ideas. Heaven forfend you should offer your own ideas.
I’ve just skimmed this entire discussion, and your contributions can be summed up in two words:
“You’re stupid.”
That has been your response every single time. Purely reactive, purely derogatory, purely contrary. It’s like your soul point of existence is to stand around and assert your superiority by pointing out others’ imperfections.
There are lots of terms for that sort of person, but I’ll stick to one that is one you can best understand:
Worthless asshole.
No, that’s not fair. Assholes have their uses; we’d all die of terminal constipation without them.
So I’ll just stick with “worthless.”
Wanna prove me wrong? Then offer some kind of commentary that puts your own ideas out there. Your own observations. Offer up something for everyone else to tear apart, like you revel in doing to others.
I ain’t holding my breath.
J.
It’s obvious that Quaker’s got no game. But perhaps opinions from a Quaker regarding the timeless human condition called war are an oxymoron. They’ve always let others pay the high price for freedom.
You don’t bother putting forth your own opinions, your own ideas. Heaven forfend you should offer your own ideas.
You missed them again? Which would you prefer? That I repeat them or can I just give you the dates and times? December 28 at 7:09 p.m. and December 29 and 12:41 p.m. At both times, I commented in my own incomparable fashion.
After that, I busied myself with correcting your errors. I fear I haven’t finished that job yet.
But perhaps opinions from a Quaker regarding the timeless human condition called war are an oxymoron.
Not at all, AO. Your religious bigotry seems to have blinded you to the 350-year-old opinion offered by our founding Friend, George Fox on what you so pessimistically call the “timeless human condition” of war.
Let’s look at those comments, Quaker, shall we?
Translation: “They’re stupid.”
Translation: “They’re both stupid.”
Oh, yeah, you REALLY went out on a limb there, champ. Way to hang it out.
You’re right on one point, though: to simply say “they’re stupid/you’re stupid/everyone but me’s stupid” is absolutely your “own incomparable fashion.” It’s pretty much all you ever say or do.
I’m just continually impressed at the new ways you find to say the same thing over and over.
J.
Let’s look at those comments, Quaker, shall we?
Oh goody! You finally found them! Gold star for you, Mr. Tea!
I’m just continually impressed at the new ways you find to say the same thing over and over.
You’re right about one thing, Mr. Tea: I do tend to repeat myself. Alas, I find myself at a loss. If you’d stop making the same errors again and again we might both find some relief.
Whoops! A little unfinished business:
Oh, yeah, you REALLY went out on a limb there, champ. Way to hang it out.
I’ll confess that my written opinion sheds is pedestrian. However, “Kill them! Kill them all!” is NOT an improvement.
Funny, the only person I see saying “kill them all” is you, Quaker. Nice little straw man there.
The closest anyone came was when I was discussing proportionality in the context of intent and desire vis-a-vis technical capability:
On that scale, Israel’s response is a gross UNDERreaction. They have the capability of completely wiping out the entire Gaza Strip, and are refraining.
Conversely, Hamas is showing absolutely no restraint in their attacks, and shows NO interest in a peaceful settlement.
Do you deny that, should Israel wish to, they could utterly obliterate the Gaza Strip? They have that capability.
Instead, they have shown tremendous restraint. Hell, when they dropped the bomb on the Hamas leader yesterday, they CALLED AHEAD and warned the people inside his house. And as a military leader in wartime, he was a legitimate target under moral and legal obligation to absent himself from civilians lest precisely what happened happen.
As I said, Basement, you’re a worthless parasite. You wait for others to say something of substance, then piggyback on that and spout your snark and condescension — never once offering a single statement of substance. You’re a carbuncle on the buttocks of humanity, screaming out to be lanced.
J.
As I said, Basement, you’re a worthless parasite. You wait for others to say something of substance, then piggyback on that and spout your snark and condescension — never once offering a single statement of substance.
Did you get a thesaurus for Christmas Mr. Tea?
Do you deny that, should Israel wish to, they could utterly obliterate the Gaza Strip? They have that capability.
Of course I don’t deny they have the capability. However, I wouldn’t call their failure to do so an “underreaction.” I’d call anything else barbaric.
They’re fighting an enemy that has Israel’s obliteration as their stated and constantly reaffirmed goal, you fucking moron. For Israel to constantly and incessantly stup short of saying “well, screw ‘em, they’re never going to give up on wiping us out” IS almost suicidal restraint. That Israel is going so far as to very, very selectively target their bombs AND CALL AHEAD WARNINGS is far beyond what anyone could reasonably ask of them.
Meanwhile, Hamas cheered when one of the missiles took out a kindergarten — then were chastened when it turned out to have been empty. They also rejoiced when another missile took out the top two floors of an apartment building — until it turned out that they didn’t injure any of the occupants.
Then a top Hamasshole hides out with his family (minus the son he sent off on a suicide mission a few years ago) in his house, with an arsenal in the basement. Israel calls them up and says “the bomb will be there shortly.” He ignores the warning, and he and his arsenal get blown to bits — along with the family he thought he could use as human shields.
Call it fate, call it luck, call it karma, call it the hand of God or the will of Allah or the grace of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I call it justice.
And I still call you a parasitic fewmet.
(And no, I didn’t get a thesaurus for Christmas. I just save the big words for when they are called for.)
J.
It’s parasitic to correct your errors and distortions, Mr. Tea? I had always considered testing your assertions a humble service to your readers.
Fair enough. I’ll stop on the condition that you check your facts and resist your inclination to mislead.
I won’t hold my breath, though.
Israel is going so far as to very, very selectively target their bombs
They’re not very good at it, apparently.
You’re using my postings for your source material, Quaker, not offering any thoughts of your own. Without my comments, you’d have nothing to say. So yeah, “parasitic.”
And let’s go with the 25% civilian casualty figure. 50% of Gaza’s population is below 17, and it’s pretty much evenly split male-female. Hamas fighters are all adult males, but even if every single adult male was in Hamas, that’d be only 25% of the population. And 75% of the casualties are Hamas.
Even if you take the 40% civilians number (and I don’t), that means that 60% of the casualties are Hamas. That’s still damned good.
So far, the Israeli casualties have been overwhelmingly civilian. That’s to be expected — Hamas TARGETS civilians. Of course, to them, every single person in Israel is a legitimate target, so I guess that doesn’t count.
At one early point of the fighting, Hamas rockets had killed one Israeli and two Palestinian children — sisters, ages 5 and 13, as I recall. At that point, would a “proportionate” Israeli response have been to kill one Palestinian and two Israeli children?
J.
Also, you’re using Reuters as a source on an Israeli conflict? After they got caught repeatedly lying and faking on behalf of Hezbollah in 2006?
Good lord, you’re even dumber than I thought possible…
J.
Also, you’re using Reuters as a source on an Israeli conflict? After they got caught repeatedly lying and faking on behalf of Hezbollah in 2006?
Indeed I am. What are you using? NRO?
And I still call you a parasitic fewmet.
Can’t you even get an insult right, Mr. Tea? A fewmet (or fumet, if you go with Merriam’s) can’t be parasitic because a) it isn’t a living creature and b) it’s not inside another creature. A fumet might be infested with parasites, but it can’t be parasitic itself. You would have been better off not to overreach. Perhaps “poopyhead”…?
Even if you take the 40% civilians number (and I don’t), that means that 60% of the casualties are Hamas. That’s still damned good.
If you say so, Mr. Tea. If the Israeli’s are “very, very selectively targeting their bombs” as you say, I might have guessed they would have had more success.
You’re using my postings for your source material, Quaker, not offering any thoughts of your own. Without my comments, you’d have nothing to say. So yeah, “parasitic.”
And you’re here to offer your own original posts?
I thought you graced us with your wisdom as counterpoint to Oliver’s views. My mistake, Mr. Tea. That would make you guilty of the same offense with which you accuse me.
No, Quaker, I’m usually injecting some reality and common sense into the discussion — something Oliver is usually very lax about. Understandable; he’s mostly preaching to the choir, and it’s an easy trap to fall into. No, I offer my own ideas and observations and analysis, and often the reasoning behind it.
You, on the other hand, seem to be on a quest to find the most ways you can say “you’re stupid.” Your comments have a certain gravitas that make Paris Hilton look like William F. Buckley. “Heliumesque” seems a fitting term.
J.
I’m usually injecting some reality and common sense into the discussion
You can’t try to make up with me by trying to make me laugh, Mr. Tea. No sir, not dull, beef-witted Quaker–dull, dull Quaker who has found errors of fact in five different examples of your “reality and common sense.” And that’s just in this thread alone.
Really, Mr. Tea, if you’re going to fling bullshit, you musn’t be surprised when someone notices the smell.
You lot are in rare form. What a great thread.
Hey, Quaker has a new saying:
“It stinks!”
Whoops, it’s not new. That was the catchphrase of noted TV film critic Jay Sherman.
Let’s set aside all the bullshit, then, Quaker. Just this once. Why don’t you spell out what Israel should have done instead of air strikes after Hamas spends a couple of years firing literally thousands of rockets and mortar shells into Israel, kidnaps one of its soldiers in an armed invasion and holds him hostage for a couple of years, announces that it considers the “truce” that it hasn’t really been following ended, and ramps up the attacks?
Please make certain that your answer includes the salient facts that Hamas’ charter specifically dedicates itself to the destruction of Israel, rejecting any compromises or negotiations, and has repeatedly reiterated its dedication to that goal at every opportunity.
I’ve already predicted at least three ways you can weasel out of actually answering. I’m hoping that at least you’ll find a fourth way and surprise me; I don’t expect you’ll give a real response. That’d run too many risks; exposing your own ideas to criticism, forcing you to think, and committing you to a concrete position. Can’t have that.
Parthenon, I’m glad you’re enjoying the show. I kinda wish I could see this as an observer myself.
J.
What should Israel do?
Let’s pretend I’m an American Likudnik like yourself. My recommendation would be to cut off 1.5 million civilians from the outside world and declare that action “restraint”. Then I’d go in with airstrikes that wreck the civilian infrastructure and call them “targeted”. Next, I’d roll in the tanks and call it “justified.”
And, of course, if anyone disagreed with me, I’d call them “anti-Semite.”
When all is said and done, Israel won’t be any closer to peace. In it’s place, they’ll have vengeance, which makes a nice substitute if you’re in politics.
Now: if I was really interested in trying to stop the violence, I’d turn first to the factions within my own country interested in pursuing peace–and whaddya know, that’s a substantial plurality (if not majority–I haven’t seen a recent poll) of the Israeli electorate! I’d ease the restrictions at the humiliating checkpoints so that Palestinian civilians could go to work, earn a living, and have a reason to expect a normal life. I’d rein in the extremists from my own country who believe they have a right to seize the property of Palestinians because “God said so”. I’d give them, say, six months to clear out of illegal settlements before withdrawing military protection.
I’d allow international observers into Gaza and seek help from the International Red Cross to make sure civilians are getting food and medical attention. And I’d make sure that some organiztion–any organization other than Hamas–is providing infrastructure and services so they’re not the last and only resort for civilian support.
A lot more complicated than “wipe out Gaza” I’ll grant you. But in the long run, far more effective.
Additional note, Mr. Tea: If all of my previous post sounds familiar, it’s because another Friend, Southern Quaker, has already explained this to you.
So feel free to skip over any repetitions of your previous dismissals of simple common sense and move right ahead to speculations on the count of my active neurons.
Why don’t you spell out what Israel should have done instead of air strikes after Hamas spends a couple of years….
And you might reconsider this line of reasoning. Were all other events prior to this moment preordained? Were there no other paths Israel could have chosen leading up to this point?
Hmm… easing the checkpoints… what harm could that cause?
Well, apart from those pesky suicide bombers, including the woman who was being admitted for free reconstructive surgery who planned to blow up the hospital… not much.
Rein in the extremists in my own country… such as, say, evacuating every single Israeli from Gaza and let the Palestinians have their own Judenrein area? Funny, I thought they did that a couple of years ago.
And I’d make sure that some organiztion–any organization other than Hamas–is providing infrastructure and services so they’re not the last and only resort for civilian support.
Unfortunately, the Palestinians want Hamas. They proved that in free and fair elections. And Hamas has a way of dealing with rivals. It usually involves those rivals being accused of “collaborating” with Israel and said “collaborators” ending up very much dead. And it just isn’t people that get that treatment.
Here’s an example: when Israel withdrew from Gaza, they left behind some very high-tech, very productive greenhouses for the Palestinians to use. Instead, they destroyed them.
The International Red Cross? They might have a few issues with your idea — after all, the Palestinians have been using their ambulances as terrorist transports and bomb carriers. And if the Red Cross doesn’t have a problem, then Israel damned well better.
I’ve been trying to decide if you’re naive or stupid, but then realized that the two aren’t mutually exclusive.
So, what’s the weather like in Cloud-Cuckoo Land today, and do you need a passport when you come visit the real world?
J.
Bravo, Mr. Tea! You’ve successfully eviscerated each and every point and added gratuitous insult for good measure. We’re left only with your preferred option: pursue vengeance, now and in the future when nothing changes.
Unfortunately, the Palestinians want Hamas.
No, they want to eat.
No, they want to eat.
On what basis do you say that?
If they wanted to eat, they’d get food.
Instead, they get weapons. Literally tons and tons of weapons — rockets, bombs, rifles, mortars, and anything else that they can use to try to kill Israelis.
They have made their priorities blindingly clear — look at what they have on copious abundance. In the “guns and butter” equation, they’re all guns and no butter.
And no, it’s not “vengeance.” It’s “destroy their weapons and degrade their ability to re-arm and attack again.” It’s the only approach that has shown even the slightest bit of success — and Israel has tried many others. Including the “join hands and sing Kumbayah” approaches you recommend.
GO AND READ HAMAS’ CHARTER, YOU IGNORANT ASSHOLE. Then come back and tell us where there is the slightest room for compromise, the tiniest cause for hope, the most obscure indication that they might actually be interested in peace.
Hamas does us the courtesy of spelling out precisely what they believe in, what they want, how they want to achieve it, and what they think of your notions. Are you too stupid to find it, too stupid to understand it, or too racist to think that they can actually mean what they say?
J.
Hmm… easing the checkpoints… what harm could that cause?
Well, apart from those pesky suicide bombers, including the woman who was being admitted for free reconstructive surgery who planned to blow up the hospital… not much.
You seem to be under the misapprehension that checkpoints exist only at crossings between Israeli and Palestinian territory. Educate yourself.
Rein in the extremists in my own country… such as, say, evacuating every single Israeli from Gaza and let the Palestinians have their own Judenrein area? Funny, I thought they did that a couple of years ago.
You seem to think that after the evacuation of 2005, the extremists who think all of Palestine belongs to Israel by divine right quietly went away. Educate yourself.
The International Red Cross? They might have a few issues with your idea
Do you think the ICRC is not currently workig in Gaza? Guess again.
Mr. Tea, do you still wonder why I spend so much time correcting your errors? It’s because you make so many of them.
Excellent job, Tea. The Palestinians don’t want any leeadership other than Hamas. “They” don’t want food. If they did, they’d simply get it. But instead, “they”–all 1.5 million of them in Gaza–want weapons.
Collective punishment is the only answer, isn’t it?
Now refresh my memory. Wasn’t someone here just a short while ago whining about personal insults?
Quaker, my statements are based on direct observations of established, easily observable facts. I don’t know where you’re getting your statements from, but I’m guessing you’re pulling them out of your ass. (That would certainly explain the way they smell.)
Now you’re trotting out the “collective punishment” canard. No, “collective punishment” is things like the Nazi extermination of Lidice, where an entire town was wiped out because the Nazis couldn’t identify who assassinated one Nazi. Bombing legitimate military targets that Hamas has put in and around civilians is NOT collective punishment. Imposing quarantines/blockades to prevent the enemy from getting weaponry is NOT collective punishment. Closing down border crossings after they are repetaedly used to smuggle weapons and bombs into Israel and are themselves attacked by hamas is NOT collective punishment.
You know, your arguments would be a bit tougher to refute if you simply didn’t repeat the talking points issued by Terrorist Apologists International. They’ve all had years to be studied and taken apart.
Fact: Hamas was elected the legal representative of the Palestinian people in an internationally-supervised and certified valid election. So yes, the Palestinians CHOSE to entrust their fate to Hamas.
Fact: Hamas is a terrorist organization pledged to the destruction of Israel and replacing it with an Islamist state, and constitutionally rejects negotiations and compromises short of that goal.
Fact: despite the blockades and sealed borders, Hamas has shown it can obtain the things Israel most wants to deny them — weapons — in tremendous quantities. Therefore, it is entirely appropriate to conclude that if Hamas put a similar priority on food and other items, the Gaza Strip would not have any humanitarian crisis.
Fact: even though Hamas constitutionally rejects negotiations and compromise, Israel has tried them — with a complete lack of success.
Fact: there are several hundred Hamas fighters — including at least two top leaders — who are now guaranteed to never even try to harm another Israeli ever again.
Fact: under the Geneva Accords, the responsibility for the deaths of civilians in and around Hamas military facilities is solely that of Hamas.
Fact: Neither Israel nor the Palestinians are signatories to the Geneva Accords, so citing them as anything besides a moral guideline is utterly irrelevant.
But none of that matters in your little Cloud Cuckoo Land, does it, Quaker? The Palestinians are “victims,” and that means you have to excuse every single thing they do. Likewise, the Israelis are “oppressors,” so every single thing they do is wrong. Because that’s the way your political filter works.
J.
Bombing legitimate military targets that Hamas has put in and around civilians is NOT collective punishment. Imposing quarantines/blockades to prevent the enemy from getting weaponry is NOT collective punishment. Closing down border crossings after they are repetaedly used to smuggle weapons and bombs into Israel and are themselves attacked by hamas is NOT collective punishment.
Keep capitalizing, Mr. Tea. Perhaps you’ll come to convince yourself. The blockades might be aimed at stopping the flow of weapons, but they also seem to block much more.
Yeah, they do. And Hamas has plenty of interest in smuggling weapons, but little interest in doing anything that might actually help the people they were elected to serve.
I capitalize because I want to make sure you notice they’re there. I haven’t been overly impressed with your observational skills, so I don’t want to take chances.
J.