He has a paper-thin motivation and his way of exorcising his internal demons has none of the panache of someone like Batman. Yet, he gets relaunched in comics time and time again and has (bad) movies made of him while other more worthy characters (Flash, Green Lantern, Thor) get stuck in development hell.
I HATE the Punisher. I have no idea why he keeps getting books and movies. The only thing I can think of is the mini-series they launched in the 1980’s made enough of a splash that editors keep trying again and again to recreate that initial excitment without realizing it was an artifact of the Reagan 80’s.
Also, if I am being honest, I think Frank Miller is seriously overrated. I really don’t like most of his stuff.
I have a freind who raved about the wonderfulness of The Punisher. I’d, in truth, never heard of him. I caught the movie on HBO or one of those one night, since he raved about that too.
It was honestly one of the worst movies I’ve ever seen, or, at least one of the worst action/hero movies i’ve ever seen. As comic-baed movies go, I can’t think of any I’ve seen that are worse. Pure excrement.
My heroes aren’t killers.
The Punisher started as a villain and I hate it when he’s held up as a superhero
I’ve long been a Punisher-hater, too, but I can come up with a few reasons why he keeps getting relaunched:
1) No superpowers or high-tech, so a much cheaper budget.
2) Fanboy wish-fulfillment — revenge killer.
3) Fantastic visual, with the skull on the chest.
4) Possible crossover with action-movie fans who prefer Rambo and Charles Bronson and the like over comic books.
J.
Oliver, there was a movie about Flash Gordon titled (surprisingly enough) “Flash Gordon” that was released in 1980. It had a pre-James Bond Timothy Dalton in it, plus Max von Sydow as Ming the Merciless.
You, daniel rotter, are making the exact same mistake that my sister made this very morning. There is a world of difference between “Flash Gordon” and “The Flash.” I do not know why people make this mistake.
Flash Gordon was a scifi adventure hero who traveled in space and did what scifi adventure heroes do. The Flash is a DC Comics superhero who wears red and is renowned for his ability to run *really* fast. Multiple costumed heroes have carried the title since 1940.
Yeah, I was discussing the fast Flash, not Flash Gordon.
Although I must say in my pre-comic book nerd days (circa the very early ’80s) I was confused about the two as well.
JT: I’ve long been a Punisher-hater, too, but I can come up with a few reasons why he keeps getting relaunched:
1) No superpowers or high-tech, so a much cheaper budget.
2) Fanboy wish-fulfillment — revenge killer.
Not to mention:
3) Fanboy wish-fulfillment – really big guns.
4) Fanboy wish-fulfillment – explosions.
and
5) Fanboy wish-fulfillment – really big guns.
Gods, how I hate him.
Seems to me like a new Punisher movie gets rushed through development every time there’s a successful Batman release, since the Punisher is basically Batman minus both the panache and any sort of moral character. Marvel’s willingness to market a character who is basically a serial killer who only targets “bad guys” has always left a bad taste in my mouth. Of course, that’s nothing compared to the rank nihilism that dominates Marvel comics at the moment.
Getting revenge and killing the people who killed your family makes sense. Going ape-shit and killing all the ‘bad guys’ makes for a boring character.
That said, I like the original with Dolph Lundgren. Low-budget action film without much of a plot.
I also like the parody in The Tick, Big Shot.
I’m going to step in as the lone Pun defender, in spite of the utter crap movies they make about him. I like the cloudy morality and ethics he represents, the capital punishment question taken to absurd hyperbole. Every now and then it’s kinda fun to read a hero that actually is a menace to society, not just the fake menace talk they drum up to make Batman more dramatic. I actually find Superman and Spiderman quite dull in comparison.
Alright, fine. Fanboy am I.
I actually find Superman and Spiderman quite dull in comparison.
You know that’s grounds for excommunication, right?
Did I say Superman? I meant…. uh… this guy! Don’t exile me, OW! I’ll be good!
Nah, Supes is alright. I’m too hard on him because he’s the big kahuna, the B.B. King of the comics. My favorite all-time (and this is gonna sound bad) was the Doomsday series – some of the best writing in that or any other medium.
Read the MAX version of the series by Garth Ennis. It along with a short run by Steven Grant in the 90’s is the only time the Punisher has been any good.
I’d guess that the Punisher keeps getting relaunched and turned into movies precisely *because* he’s got a paper-thin motivation and a bone-headedly easy to understand (and therefore easy to depict) method of exorcising his demons.
There’s not much to the character, so he’s easy crank out book after movie after book about. And since it’s basically the same crappy story over and over again, all these movies and books suck.
But The Punisher doesn’t have paper-thin motivation. His origin is remarkably similar to that of The Batman. Both men lost their families to unfettered crime. The difference, of course, is how that loss informed their development.
Bruce Wayne was orphaned young and developed into a man (eventually a Batman) surrounded by inherited wealth and privilege (Wayne Manor, Alfred, et al.). As a result, he can afford to have an elevated view of justice where the guilty must be made to suffer for their crimes, but only as that justice is afforded by the due process of law. The Batman would honor his parents’ memory by making the guilty pay for their crimes, but never stooping to their level.
Frank Castle had already seen death in Vietnam and came away from it scarred. His family provided comfort to him post-action, reminded him of a humanity that had been chipped away during his tour of duty. Sadly, that family was torn from him through the murderous actions of organized crime. Without a family, what need had Frank Castle for his humanity? He became The Punisher, sentencing the guilty to death on his terms, as he saw no need for the trappings of law.
The Punisher could be a good movie property, a study in how far a man can go before losing their soul entirely. But instead, the character is wasted on spent shells, explosions and body counts. You want a good Punisher film, find a promising indie director, give them a limited budget, and tell them to take a long, hard look at just how much of Frank Castle is left at the end of The Punisher’s bloody day.
I blame Frank Miller. No one cared about the Punisher until he pulled him into Daredevil. Much like Kingpin, a second rate villain before Miller redid him. So it’s easy, we all blame Frank Miller for everything.
You can’t hold the shitty movies against the Punisher as a character anymore than you can say Batman sucks because of Joel Shumacher.
Garth Ennis’s MAX run on the Punisher has been terrific, and shows that in the right hands, the character can be really entertaining. His wiki bio says it all:
“His work is characterised by extreme violence, black humour, profanity, an interest in male friendship, a disdain for organized religion, and contempt for superheroes.”
What more do you want?
One thing I’m curious to see is what happens to the Punisher in the future, since he’s one of the few characters without superpowers and tied to a specific time and location -Vietnam.
The writers have already acknowledged that he’s getting older, and no matter how you do the math, he’s got to be pushing 60.
Parthenon: My favorite all-time (and this is gonna sound bad) was the Doomsday series
Well, the aftermath with Funeral for Friend, World without a Superman, etc were pretty good. But the actual Doomsday portion was basically just several issues of fight scenes, rather pointless ones at that.
Steve Rogers: One thing I’m curious to see is what happens to the Punisher in the future, since he’s one of the few characters without superpowers and tied to a specific time and location -Vietnam.
As, at one time, so were the origins of Iron Man and the Fantastic Four (cold war space race).
Fortunately (heh) there’s Gulf Wars 1 and 2 and Iraq to continue to provide wars that could be slotted into their origins.
Well, the aftermath with Funeral for Friend, World without a Superman, etc were pretty good. But the actual Doomsday portion was basically just several issues of fight scenes, rather pointless ones at that.
I’d forgotten those, all very good. I loved the Doomsday issues because Superman had seemed basically invincible for sixty years or so – sure, somebody would weaken him now and then but you sort of knew he’d always pull it out – but he’d finally met his match. Talk about a build-up.
Parthenon: but he’d finally met his match
Whose only ability was that he was strong and tough. Yeah, Supes has gotten so strong and has so many abilities that it’s been difficult at times to find a decent challenge for for him. But he does have those powers and abilities.
Yet when faced with a brute who could do nothing but hit him, Supes chooses to go toe-to-toe in a smashfest? Stupid. Boring. If they wanted to kill Supes off so they could tell those other stories there were far, FAR better ways to do it than just have him beaten to death.
My personal favorite Marvel superhero was Dr. Strange. The live action movie made a few years ago sucked, but the animated version made more recently sucked big, mossy boulders. I’m very glad my two young sons didn’t like it, even though that means they’ll never read the comics.
By way of explication, I think the reason I liked Strange was that he was a ’superhero’ due to what he KNEW. He’d studied and worked hard and acquired his abilities, and defeated his enemies without punching them through walls. Not a bad role model for the kids.
Mentioned above, but read Punisher Max. Some of the greatest writing in comics ever. The Punisher in the past was never written to his fullest expression, but Garth Ennis did this. His origin story, Punisher: Born, is phenomenal. Didn’t care much for the movie, though it didn’t disgust me as much as Batman and Robin.
There’s already been a Flash TV series. It was pretty good, too.
With The Flash you have to differentiate between the Golden Age Jay Scott Flash, the Silver Age Barry Allen Flash, and the modern era Wally West Flash. That’s not confusing.
I just hope they don’t screw up Wonder Woman. She’s the only one of the DC Trinity not to have a major motion picture yet, and it’s time.
I seem to remember Thor showing up in one of the old Bill Bixby Hulk TV movies. It was a pretty comical Thor, too.
The Punisher can go pound sand. He came out at the height of the Grim-n-Gritty(tm) era, and I never really liked him even though I was a big-time X-fan at the time. He’s not even comparable to Batman; Bats doesn’t use Big Damn Guns. He’s just a borderline lunatic with an arsenal.
I seem to remember Thor showing up in one of the old Bill Bixby Hulk TV movies. It was a pretty comical Thor, too.
He was played wonderfully by Eric Allan Kramer. Honestly, the movie was not that great, and they really screwed with Thor’s concept and origin, but I liked Kramer’s take on Thor. I was always pleased to see him go on to have a long career after that Hulk movie.
As for blaming Frank Miller for everything, I don’t. Once upon a time, I thought he was brilliant. Then I noticed he really only has the one story to tell, and every woman he writes is either a hooker, a lesbian, or an innocent.
I don’t blame Miller for everything, but I don’t think he is the greatest artist in comics, either.
Oliver, we are supposed to get a Thor in the run up to the Avengers movie. Rumor has it that Kenneth Branagh will direct (!) and Kevin McKidd as the Thunder God.
I didn’t like the Doomsday fight, or the whole stunt which was simply designed to sell comics and not tell a good story. As a Superman fan(atic) I thought it was ridiculous that this boring alien something or other was the thing that killed Superman after 60 years. I would have far preferred a story where Lex Luthor finally killed him and we’d have to deal with the repercussions of that.
OW: I didn’t like the Doomsday fight, … stunt … it was ridiculous … I would have far preferred a story
Word!
I thought the Punisher was just part of that weird late 1980s / early 1990s fetish for gigantic-headed musclebound heroes who carried really big, tough, macho guns and were willing to shoot and kill people.
Pretty much like Cable in the X-Men, and many others.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_(comics)
I thought the fascination would fade, and I think it did, -pretty much.
But the Punisher is more akin to the superspy movies than the superhero genre.
I thought it was ridiculous that this boring alien something or other was the thing that killed Superman after 60 years.
Having read up a little on Doomsday’s background, I didn’t think he was boring. And besides, if you polled 100 readers as to who they thought would finally get Supes, 100 would have said ‘Lex.’ I’m not saying bring things in out of left field just to be different, but come on, who saw that coming?
The problem with Supes is that you need villains that seem greater. Admittedly Doomsday was a little bit the equivalent of getting hit by a bus… but sometimes that happens.
The Punisher was a product of his time. He came out when NYC crime was EXTREMELY high, and therefore Death Wish was a huge hit movie, and Bernie Goetz was a hero. Vigilantes were heroes in the 1970s.
It was also a bit cutting edge, because he was so clearly an anti-hero, and they used the conflict between him and Spidey to examine some real questions about vigilantism. Even in the 1970s Marvel World of Imperfect Neurotic Superheroes, the Punisher was a bit out there.
That said, he now seems just boring. With every superhero on the planet overdosing on testosterone, I have no idea what he brings to the table anymore.