’)
Sen. Obama won this debate the way he did the last one. Strong and steady. He doesn’t get hyperactive, and that’s what we need.
McCain looked doddering, nasty, and condescending. Not the sort of man we should have as president.
“That one.” Really.
UPDATE:
John McCain refuses to shake Obama’s hand. Refuses.
McCain apparently shook hands right at the end of the debate. He just refused a second shake, I guess.
Polls:
CNN
OBAMA 54%
MCCAIN 30%
CBS
Obama 39-27 McCain – 35 tie
Over on Free Republic they want to commit hari-kari.
I should also note that Tom Brokaw sucked – sucked – at moderating. The moderators job is to be as invisible as possible. Jim Lehrer did such a better job, and Gwen Ifill was superior as well.
When McCain said “that one” he lost!!! “That one” while his campaign, especially Palin, is borderline hate filled at this point, might be considered a racist dig???? I dont know. I just thought it was the equivalent of “taking my ball home.”
Anyone else notice how after the debate John and Cindy left the stage while Barack and Michele stayed. Barack and Michele were shaking hands and talking with the audience and John and Cindy were nowhere to be seen.
It didn’t seem like selective editing either. MSNBC (I don’t own a TV and MSNBC seems best at live internet coverage) would pan out to show the entire audience and John and Cindy had clearly gone back to the green room while Barack and Michele were mingling and talking with the audience.
I just found that interesting.
I agree that Obama won the debate. For me (admittedly a committed voter) the most moving part of the debate was after the debate. My wife and I watched CSPAN for a good 30 minutes after the debate while Barack and Michelle worked the room. It seems that they made a point to talk to each member of the audience, answer questions and pose for photos. McCain was no where to be seen. At first we thought he must be there but the liberal media just was not showing him. It soon became clear that he was not there. He and his wife vanished within minutes of the debate ending. It was quite moving to see the Obamas take the time to meet with each person in the room.
He shook it before that when Tom Brokaw told them to hang on at the end. Brokaw sucked – Russert wasn’t perfect but was still in his prime and he was missed here. Brokaw needs to go back to another book or monument to veterans. All that said, while McCain was terrible, I didn’t think Obama was very good tonight. After watching a replay of the 1992 town hall on C-SPAN, all of these town hall formats have been a steady declension from Clinton’s commanding performance. I wish either of these guys could talk about and simplify economic matters the way Clinton could. That said, I’m glad Obama will be president – the historical moment is right for him.
I agree Oliver, Obama was both measured and detailed; while at the same time up close and personal with the audience in a way that came across as very natural.
And when he talked about health care, the difference in substance between Obama and Mccain was so large it was almost as if one had taken a random untrained and unfit person from the street and put him in the ring with an undefeated champion boxer. Mccain looked like he didn’t belong on the same stage tonight.
Was it me or did anyone notice this joke
“I’ll get Osama bin Laden, my friends. I’ll get him. I know how to do it!”
Did anyone hear John McCain say this? you think if he knew how to catch Bin Laden, he would have given Bush and the CIA some tips?
McCain looks like Peter Lorre’s unstable American uncle.
McCain is Herbert from Family Guy
I had no idea that healthcare was a “right”. Apparently, neither did a lot of other Americans.
Will Constitutional Scholar Barack Obama be advising us as to where exactly this “right” is documented?
And does this mean that if my employer drops my company-provided healthcare coverage I can sue them for violating my Civil Rights?
Brokaw is still trying to sell the idea that Social Security must be reformed immediately, all evidence to the contrary. I was deeply annoyed that he was shilling for McCain by the way he framed that question that was a statement of myth and not a question at all.
Dave, Dave, Dave . . . .
Dave in SoCal: “I had no idea that healthcare was a “right”. Apparently, neither did a lot of other Americans.”
I’d be surprised if most Americans could point out their home state on an unmarked map.
“Will Constitutional Scholar Barack Obama be advising us as to where exactly this ‘right’ is documented?”
It’s in the preamble.
“We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,[1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”
Did you see that? The United States was founded to “…promote the general welfare…” of its citizens, among other concerns.
Obama dominated McCain this time, rather, McCain dominated himself. About halfway, McCain became noticeably agitated. He was losing control and he knew it. How can you say, “That one”? Walking around, repeating his ‘work across the aisle’ stuff. He had a few bites like the $3million projector that no one seemed to care about, but nothing really big to attack Obama with. This was McCain’s last chance to make a difference. With him slipping so badly in the polls, he needed to pull more folks to the Right. Between tonight’s performance, Palin and Hannity’s angry BS, and the efforts of all other right wing pseudo media to spread the “blame the CRA” excuse, they will never get enough votes outside the base. Stick a fork in it.
Will Constitutional Scholar Barack Obama be advising us as to where exactly this “right” is documented?
9th Amendment.
“I had no idea that healthcare was a “right”. Apparently, neither did a lot of other Americans.”
I don’t think anyone from the Torture Party has any business telling us what our “rights” are. You also don’t seem to share the view that we have a “right” to due process, habeas corpus, or from being held indefinitely or from being tortured. Yeah, I’m sure health care is pretty far down the list.
“I had no idea that healthcare was a “right”. Apparently, neither did a lot of other Americans.”
Yeah I bet a lot of conservatives didn’t realize there was a “right” to privacy in the Constitution but Sarah Palin sure thinks so.
“I had no idea that health care was a “right.”
Right now it’s not, but it ought to be. Like it is in every other advanced country.
wouldn’t it come under life and the persuit of happiness? just saying.
There are other developed nations that converted from private to universal health care in the past 20 years or so — Taiwan, Korea, Switzerland for example. This doesn’t have to be rocket science for us. Not making the change has helped move us down the list in quality of life. I don’t know why conservatards like McCain are not on board with universal health care. Country first and all.
Dave, Dave, Dave . . . .
Anything more substantial to offer than repeating my name three times? I didn’t think so.
Did you see that? The United States was founded to “…promote the general welfare…” of its citizens, among other concerns.
“promote the general welfare” does not equal “right to healthcare”. Fail.
9th Amendment
Fail
Right now it’s not, but it ought to be. Like it is in every other advanced country.
So you’re saying that every American is entitled to the services of doctors and nurses, whether they want to provide it or not? What happens if they don’t want to? Will they be forced to under threat of legal action?
I believe the 13th Amendment was passed to keep this sort of activity from happening.
So you’re saying that every American is entitled to the services of doctors and nurses, whether they want to provide it or not? What happens if they don’t want to? Will they be forced to under threat of legal action?
I believe the 13th Amendment was passed to keep this sort of activity from happening.
…wut?
…wut?
Involuntary servitude. Still confused?
The NHS is slavery?
Holy fucking Jesus, what the fucking hell is wrong with you?
Involuntary servitude. Still confused?
I know what the 13th amendment is, dumbass. I thought you were talking about patients at first, but I see you’re talking about doctors. So you think doctors should be able to not do their jobs and still get paid (like pharmacists)? By your logic, I could become a doctor, become a Christian Scientist, and never have to work another day of my life.
Dave, why do you hate America?
Anyone else notice how after the debate John and Cindy left the stage while Barack and Michele stayed.
Yup. Me and every undecided voter in that room.
didn’t hear anything new from either of them, though, and a whole lotta nothing from McCain. he should get his own show on the DIY network. he knows how to do everything!
“Hey, John, can you help me with my water heater?”
“I know how to do that, my friend.”
New rule; Basic health care becomes a right for everyone in America except Dave.
Don’t pretend you don’t know the meaning of a simple sentence, Dave.
Guess what? If we had universal health care, I betcha we could staff up just fine. If we do get it, and some doctors or nurses don’t want to participate, let them become plumbers or fast food workers.
In other words, I say fuck ‘em. Just like you say to uninsured people.
By the way, I’ve got a pretty good plan through my employer right now. It just pisses me off that ALL Americans don’t.
The NHS is slavery?
No, but healthcare isn’t a right in the UK any more than it is in the US. The British government chooses to provide national healthcare via taxation, they are not doing it because it is one of the rights called out in the British Bill of Rights.
You, like others here, are having some trouble understanding the difference between what are rights (i.e. freedom of speech, right to bear arms, freedom from unreasonable search & seizure, right to confront your accusors, etc.) and what are things that people “should” have (i.e. affordable healthcare, clear air and water, nutritous food, etc.).
Color me unsurprised.
No, you’re the one who doesn’t understand. Human rights can be tangible or abstract, it’s really not a hard concept to grasp, unless of course you’re a prick. You know, the kind of person who has no problem passively making poverty essentialyl a crime punishable by death.
I notice you’ve subtly moved away from your argument that asking Doctors to do their fucking jobs is a violation of the 13th Amendment.
Rights are rights because people demand them. Before 1215AD, there was no “right” to habeus corpus. In many democracies today, there is no “right” to bear arms. We don’t have rights because they are “God-given”, or because a bunch of guys in powdered wigs “granted” them to us, but because we the people DEMANDED them.
I assure you, the British people view their healthcare as a right. If enough people demand that this country institute universal healthcare, it can become our right, too.
Human rights can be tangible or abstract, it’s really not a hard concept to grasp, unless of course you’re a prick.
I do understand it. You clearly don’t. Prick.
passively making poverty essentialy a crime punishable by death
Not me. I am however, all for making stupidity essentially a crime punishable by shunning. Consider yourself shunned.
I notice you’ve subtly moved away from your argument that asking Doctors to do their fucking jobs is a violation of the 13th Amendment.
Not at all. Compelling doctors to “do their fucking jobs” (as you so charmingly put it) by making their services a right that other people are entitled to IS involuntary servitude you fucking git.
I thought you were talking about patients at first, but I see you’re talking about doctors. So you think doctors should be able to not do their jobs and still get paid (like pharmacists)?
Clear thinking really isn’t your strong suit, is it Zython? Where did I make a stupid statement like that?
You do realize that “health care” primarily consists of doctors, nurses and various medical personnel providing a service, don’t you? And as soon as you make that service a right, something that people are entitled too, then the people providing that service are now under obligation to provide that service whether they want to or not. And if they don’t? They are depriving people of their civil rights and can be prosecuted accordingly.
That was a really long way of saying “No u”.
No, it isn’t, and only a moron would think it was. It’s their JOBS. Which they CHOSE. And get paid for.
This is not legal advice, but:
Rights have a multitude of sources. There are federal Constitutional rights. There are state constitutional rights. There are federal and state statutory rights. (NY, for example, has found a “right to shelter,” though Dave may not consider it one because the homeless can’t use it to enslave construction workers.) There are rights theoretically deriving from international agreements to which the U.S. is a party, though good luck getting those enforced in U.S. courts.
Federal Constitutional rights are the ones that are best known, but statutory rights probably have the biggest impact on our lives. For example, in the creation of entitlement programs, the government creates a right. Or once we have Medicaid, if I fall within its guidelines, I have a right to it. Moreover, this is a property right, which brings the Fifth Amendment’s due process guarantees into play.
When one says, “Health care is a right,” one is speaking in a normative sense: the federal government ought to ensure, as it does with Medicaid for low-income families and Medicare for the disabled and elderly, that all Americans have health care. Once the federal government creates such a program through statute or regulation, there will be a right.
To the extent Obama seems to be proposing a federal version of what Massachusetts is doing, I don’t stress over the language of rights versus responsibilities. Because he is providing access, he sees it as a right, but because there also is a mandate on parents, it also creates a responsibility.
There also are folks like Ron Paul who get very caught up in “natural rights,” but such people are essentially irrelevant to getting rights enforced in the courts.
This is not legal advice, but:
Rights have a multitude of sources. There are federal Constitutional rights. There are state constitutional rights. There are federal and state statutory rights. (NY, for example, has found a right to shelter in its state consitution, though Dave may not consider a right because the homeless can’t use it to enslave construction workers.) There are common law rights deriving from the Anglo-American legal tradition (these are the ones Dave seems to be trying to talk about with regard to the Ninth Amendment as a saving clause). There are rights theoretically deriving from international agreements to which the U.S. is a party, though good luck getting those enforced in U.S. courts.
Federal Constitutional rights are the ones that are best known, but statutory rights probably have the biggest impact on our lives. For example, in the creation of entitlement programs, the government creates a right. Or once we have Medicaid, if I fall within its guidelines, I have a right to it. Moreover, this is a property right, which brings the Fifth Amendment’s due process guarantees into play.
When one says, “Health care is a right,” one is speaking in a normative sense: the federal government ought to ensure, as it does with Medicaid for low-income families and Medicare for the disabled and elderly, that all Americans have health care. Once the federal government creates such a program through statute or regulation, there will be a right.
To the extent Obama seems to be proposing a federal version of what Massachusetts is doing, I don’t stress over the language of rights versus responsibilities. Because he is providing access, he sees it as a right, but because there is a mandate on parents, it also creates a responsibility.
There are folks like Ron Paul who get very caught up in “natural rights,” but such people are essentially irrelevant to getting rights enforced in the courts.
If enough people demand that this country institute universal healthcare, it can become our right, too.
Demanding that the government institute universal health care and revising the Constitution to add health care as one of our basic “rights” are two entirely different things.
Assuming King Obama the Merciful is able to ram that amendment through, good luck finding enough doctors willing to keep practicing in order to staff all those new hospitals and clinics you are going to have to build. Plenty of doctors today are leaving their practices because of all the government rules and requirements (and paperwork), not to mention the hoops they have to jump through to avoid malpractice lawsuits (google “defensive medicine”).
Dave: What PG said.
Damn, that guy is good.
You’re talking as if it’s a radical new concept that’s never been tried before anywhere ever. It works perfectly well thank you, and has for 60 years.
I never said “Constitutional” right, Dave.
Did you even read PG’s post? Hell, he posted it twice! Seems like even you would notce it.
To help explain what a non-Constitutional right looks like:
Some of our statutory rights are ones that Republicans disagree with. For example, you have no Constitutional right not to be racially discriminated against by the private sector. However, through the interstate commerce clause of Article I, Congress passed the Civil Rights Act of 1964 giving Americans a civilly enforceable right against race discrimination. Ron Paul still thinks this was totally wrong and some of his ideological fellows use Dave’s rhetoric about slavery to argue against it. (See Ayn Rand’s essays on this topic, in which she says it enslaves an employer or owner of accommodations open to the public to require him to treat people equally regardless of race.) But it’s become pretty generally accepted; other conservatives now go around suing the private sector for “reverse racism” based on the Civil Rights Act.
I feel comfortable predicting that almost any time you add a statutory right, conservatives will say it’s a violation of the 13th Amendment, sue to have it declared unconstitutional (though having decent lawyers, will not try to use the 13th for the legal challenge), then get used to it and start using it to their advantage when possible, and agitating for its reversal when not.
In other words, I say fuck ‘em. Just like you say to uninsured people.
Let the invisible hand of the free market decide their fate.
Not at all. Compelling doctors to “do their fucking jobs” (as you so charmingly put it) by making their services a right that other people are entitled to IS involuntary servitude you fucking git.
So I take it you believe that firefighters and police officers are slaves as well?
Clear thinking really isn’t your strong suit, is it Zython? Where did I make a stupid statement like that?
Right here:
So you’re saying that every American is entitled to the services of doctors and nurses, whether they want to provide it or not? What happens if they don’t want to? Will they be forced to under threat of legal action?
I believe the 13th Amendment was passed to keep this sort of activity from happening.
Next:
You do realize that “health care” primarily consists of doctors, nurses and various medical personnel providing a service, don’t you? And as soon as you make that service a right, something that people are entitled too, then the people providing that service are now under obligation to provide that service whether they want to or not. And if they don’t? They are depriving people of their civil rights and can be prosecuted accordingly.
Again, do you consider firefighters and police under “indentured servitude”?
And Dave, you ignored my question last time, so I’ll ask again:
Why do you hate America so much?
Compelling doctors to “do their fucking jobs” (as you so charmingly put it) by making their services a right that other people are entitled to IS involuntary servitude you fucking git.
Nobody compelled them to become doctors. If you are going to become a doctor, then you have to provide care to those who need it.
If you choose to become a police officer, firefighter, soldier, etc then, yes, you are compelled to provide services to others. Don’t want to do that? That’s perfectly fine. Then don’t take those jobs.
Seriously, as a practical matter, do you think anyone is going to hold a gun to a doctor’s head and say “You must examine this patient.”? Of course not. And switching the discussion off into terms of slavery or servitude is going off in a direction that has exceedingly little to do with what is actually meant when folks say there is a “right” to medical care.
I hope that when dave or one of his loved ones (if there is such a thing) shows up at the hospital that the people there consider his health a right- but it would be a little bit of schadenfreude if they turned heel and walked the other way as he suffers. After all, it would be involuntary servitude to have to provide healthcare.