Joe Biden won that debate. Period. Joe Biden, the real deal. Sarah Palin didn’t trip over herself but she was a talking points machine. Biden brought the heat.
Joe Biden talks about being a single father, the top moment of the debate.
Shorter Sarah Palin: I won’t answer your question. But I’ll recite this talking point.
Joe Biden puts a stake in the chest of the phony “maverick” meme.
I thought Palin asking for more power for the vice-presidency in the wake of Dick Cheney was kind of nutty.
From Obama team:
“Joe Biden won a clear victory tonight because he made a passionate case for change from the disastrous economic and foreign policies of the last eight years, and Sarah Palin defended them. While Governor Palin blindly supports John McCain’s plan for more of the same policies that have devastated Main Street and let Wall Street run wild, Joe Biden spoke clearly and strongly about Barack Obama’s plan for a tax cut for the middle class, health care that is affordable, and an end to the war in Iraq. Tonight, the American people saw why Barack Obama chose Joe Biden, a statesman from Scranton who clearly has the experience and knowledge to be a great Vice President,” said Obama-Biden campaign manager David Plouffe.
>> Palin ‘08 echoes Bush ‘00
>> Palin Botches Name Of Afghanistan Top Commander
>> Biden Dominates Debate According To CNN Undecideds
CBS Poll of undecideds gives win to Biden:
CBS NEWS/KNOWLEDGE NETWORKS POLL
(Uncommitted Voters who watched the debate)46% of uncommitted voters who watched the debate tonight thought Joe Biden was the winner. 21% thought Sarah Palin won, 33% thought it was a draw… 98% after the debate saw [Biden] as knowledgeable (79% before the debate).
CNN debate poll:
Who won
51% Biden
36% Palin
maverick, also, maverick, mom, also, maverick, main street, also, maverick, all of the above, maverick, also…
Here’s my Twitter trail:
http://twitter.com/taghkanic
I particularly appreciated Biden driving the stake in the Maverick nonsense, slamming Cheney, and his references to his neighborhood/hometown. He comes across as both authoritative and authentic.
The Obama team thought Biden won? No? Really? Shocking.
Biden was exceptional – had we not known Palin is incoherent we would have thought Biden was better, smarter, better informed and held positions that more Americans value. No question her base is no longer going to commit suicide. She was wrong and uninformed and made mistakes but she knew her name – a big improvement.
Palin was good enough to be kept on the ticket – that is the single most important thing to come out of this debate. McCain can no longer count on the Palin – Misdirection Play. McCain now has to concentrate on his unpopular positions and try to get America to concentrate on his positions – which the American people are already against.
I am listening to Keith on MSNBC and clearly my first paragraph was correct – Palin’s debate was weak. Just much better than had she melted down.
Watch intrade this evening and see if there is a rush towards McCain – remember intrade is not a poll – it’s people putting their money on the line. McCain is up a bit.
Joe Biden won that debate. Period. Joe Biden, the real deal. Sarah Palin didn’t trip over herself but she was a talking points machine. Biden brought the heat.
Wrong. Palin won that debate and you know how I know? On Twitter the only thing you were able to do was make fun of the way she talks.
Because she didn’t have any substance Jay. Why the heck would I waste Twitter time refuting Republican bull I’ve been refuting for 8 years?
A few weeks ago you were so upset when I said she would hurt the ticket. And then… she’s hurting the ticket. I’m no soothsayer but I know this stuff pretty well.
Could they design a debate more like a Couric interview next time? Let’s scare the SHIT out of these repubos.
CNN “Best Job” in debate? Biden 51 Palin 36
CNN Who was more in touch with people like you? Biden 50 Palin 44
CBS Biden 46 Palin 21 Tie 33
The people are speaking – McCain/Palin/Bush/Republicans so long been good to know you!
Intrade (bear in mind I’m PST)
before the debate at 11.55 AM today Obama 67.4 McCain 32
At 15:10 before the debate Obama 67.5 McCain 33.2
AFTER THE DEBATE:
20:08 O 66.9 McC 34.7
20:10 O 66.7 McC 34.7
20:16 O 66.9 McC 33.9
20:19 O 66.7 McC 34.1
20:24 O 66.7 McC 33.4
Another poll just out accoring to Keith shows 98% thought Biden better understood the issues.
CLEARLY, my earlier entry in this thread stands. Biden won – the American people know it!
McCain/Palin managed to set the expectations bar pretty low, and she crossed it. The theme for the next 24 hours or so will be that she did better than expected. It doesn’t matter who won or lost, that will be the narrative.
Of course, if I was really good at this stuff, I would be a Political Consultant, as opposed to just some guy on the internet. So take my prognostications with that grain of salt…
“it’s Gwen Ifill’s fault”-repubs reading poll results
Intrade 20:34 O 66.7 McC 33.1
That’s my last post on this tonight. I got a movie I taped earlier today to watch! Have a great day. I feel great.
The debate, by itself, was a draw. In American politics, you can’t score simply by who made more sense, or who was right. The net effect of all that, plus personality, demeanor, talking points, emotional appeals, etc, and how all of this will be perceived by their base first, independents second, and opposing base last, must be considered. In this debate, Biden made sense and was right, so he made the Obama camp proud. As a bonus, he made a nice jab with the Bridge to Nowhere comment, and trashed the maverick bs. On the other hand, Palin used almost the entire debate to basically make a speech to the public about every talking point she knew. From the beginning, she looked directly into the camera. Through to the end, she repeated how she was like everyone else and that they would govern accordingly. This will be enough to make the McPain camp proud. As a bonus, she displayed her “fighter” persona with the tax question fixation. She also, despite Gwen Ifill’s correct pronunciation of the word in the questions, continued the proud Bushco tradition of pronouncing nuclear the way I did in elementary school.
My guess is that Biden could have torn her apart and made her look like a fool, and must have specifically been advised not to create a distraction to Obama’s winning campaign. I read that it might be interpreted as sexist if Biden shut her down, so maybe the relative subtlety was strategic.
Well played, Biden … well played
The “intellectually honest” Daily Kos calls it for Palin, grudgingly.
Excitable Andy Sullivan calls it for Palin, too.
Luntz’s independent focus group calls it overwhemlingly for Palin.
I’m amazed at the objectivity here. Going against the trend.
Very bold.
Kudos everyone.
I had no idea that Biden spent so much time hanging out at Home Depot.
And Joe seems to think that he and Obama are running against Bush and Cheney. Someone needs to explain the 22nd amendment to him.
CHENEY! Easily the most dangerous VP in the world… really, he is!
Joe’s gonna get shot in the face fer sure for THAT comment.
[...] O-Dub has the numbers. Nope, no contest, the undecideds are clearly handing this one to [...]
“The past is prologue,” Dave. Biden made it very clear why they brought up Bush and Cheney: McCain/Palin will continue the “successes” of the previous administration, which apparently only made a few “blunders” like any administration.
After reading Dennis’s comment about Kos, I couldn’t believe it and had to check. To correct Dennis, Kos literally said that, but that is taken out of context. Read Kos’s post again, only this time, through to the end.
I listened to the debate on the radio (actually my iphone on the bus) so maybe i missed something but I thought Palin came out ahead. Mind you, I don’t think she won any point on substance. Not only did she regurgitate all the out right lies she was told to repeat, she avoided directly answering just about all of the questions. But she never stopped chattering away in her folksy moronic way and she buried Biden in a mountain of “Joe Six Pack” bullshit. Maybe it came off different on television, she did sound like a talking Mary Moosehunter doll at times, so who knows. But if people weigh these things on style over substance, Palin has her act down cold and Biden just didn’t know how to respond to it.
Biden: …But Barack Obama indicated to me he wanted me with him to help him govern. So every major decision he’ll be making, I’ll be sitting in the room to give my best advice.
So decisive leader Obama needs Joe’s help with the big decisions? Is this going to be another Bill & Hillary joint presidency? At least until Obama is ready to take the training wheels off?
Palin speaking to Biden: “I have great respect for your family also and the honor that you show our military. Barack Obama though, another story there.”
Can we finally admit that the Republicans are questioning Obama’s patriotism?
Also:
1) She started with fear about the economy, and ended with fear about losing our freedom (to whom was unclear). Maybe that’s working for undecided voters, but I found it depressing and decidedly un-Reagan-like.
2) She has latched onto McCain’s theory that all of our problems are due to moral failings that the government must correct. Not institutional failings, not bad incentives (for lenders who could offload bad credit risks into securities) or lack of accountability (for credit rating agencies that issue poorly-researched ratings and say they have no responsibility, they’re just stating an opinion). No, it’s greed and corruption, and apparently McCain/ Palin can make Wall Streeters into angels, just like McCain-Feingold was mysteriously going to do for politicians.
George Will has been annoyed by this self-righteous tendency in McCain for a long time, and McCain’s cockamamie rhetoric about the economic crisis is making me understand why.
“Is this going to be another Bill & Hillary joint presidency? At least until Obama is ready to take the training wheels off?”
Um, eight years in has Cheney taken off Bush’s?
Dave, shovel your bullshit elsewhere. What, you think that Presidents before Obama make major decisions without their advisers in the room to offer their best advice? Why bother having a Cabinet if they can just do it all themselves?
I rarely call somebody else’s argument stupid on its face, but yours is as dumb as a bag of rocks.
Dennis was wrong about kos, wrong about Andrew Sullivan (might want to go to the end of the liveblog), wrong about America.
Seriously, though, Palin was just a word stew. The right words came out of her mouth, just in the wrong order to make any sense, but she did smile and wink at the right times. I’m sure a lot of people out there don’t care that she didn’t make any sense. She didn’t win Miss Congeniality for nothing.
Most Americans would love another Bill and Hillary presidency: Job growth, rise in wages, peace and prosperity all around. The 90’s were very good times for America.
Instead, we’re going to get Obama and Biden, and they’ll have their work cut out cleaning up the messes left by President Cheney. But I think they’re going to do a great job.
Tonight’s clear winner, Tina Fey
Evidently cryiing is only a ood thing when you like the candidate, even when you didn’t before.
Crocodile tears?
From John Boehner, you bet. Go to hell, hypocrite.
Crying?
But for Hillary Clinton to now be “choked up” after losing one caucus?
Daily Kos Tells Olbermann What Debate’s ‘Key Moment’ Is, and Olbermann Obeys!
First try to guess what ‘key moment’ that is.
Look, Sarah Palin was a train wreck. She did herself no favors last night night. Her vocabulary consisted of 5 words repeated over and over like a chirping parrot trapped in a cage.
There was nothing substantial in ANY of her prepared answers, and it seemed that she has trouble memorizing sound bytes less than 90 seconds which makes me seriously question her intellectual capacity.
maverick, also, maverick, mom, also, maverick, main street, also, maverick, all of the above, maverick, also…maverick, also, maverick, mom, also, maverick, main street, also, maverick, all of the above, maverick, also…maverick, also, maverick, mom, also, maverick, main street, also, maverick, all of the above, maverick, also…maverick, also, maverick, mom, also, maverick, main street, also, maverick, all of the above, maverick, also…maverick, also, maverick, mom, also, maverick, main street, also, maverick, all of the above, maverick, also…maverick, also, maverick, mom, also, maverick, main street, also, maverick, all of the above, maverick, also…maverick, also, maverick, mom, also, maverick, main street, also, maverick, all of the above, maverick, also…maverick, also, maverick, mom, also, maverick, main street, also, maverick, all of the above, maverick, also…maverick, also, maverick, mom, also, maverick, main street, also, maverick, all of the above, maverick, also…maverick, also, maverick, mom, also, maverick, main street, also, maverick, all of the above, maverick, also…maverick, also, maverick, mom, also, maverick, main street, also, maverick, all of the above, maverick, also…
Anyone who claims that Gov. Palin won this debate or even managed a tie is just being intellectually dishonest with themselves.
Sarah Palin was PATHETIC…also….
Luntz’s independent focus group (sic) calls it overwhelmingly for Palin.
There’s a shocker.
Luntz’s independent focus group (sic) calls it overwhelmingly for Palin.
There’s a shocker.
You all’s opinion of last night’ debate is a shocker too. Can anyone here tell me of any debate going back to Reagan that the Democrat didn’t win, or that the next day the media declared the Republican the winner?
The problem with deciding who won is that there are different barometers. On substance, one would be hard-pressed to claim a Palin victory. On that folksy down-home “I’m one of you” nonsense in which far too many people put too much stock, well, the Governor opened up a big ol’ can of folksy. Of course the ‘Bush debate effect’ needs to be factored in – the Governor didn’t hold up a ‘hi mom’ sign, so she’s spotted ten points right there.
But did the McCain/Palin ticket gain any ground? I don’t think so.
“I may not answer the questions that either the moderator or you want to hear…”
No, you didn’t answer half the questions, PERIOD.
For those who though Palin won, could you please explain her answers on the following for me:
1) Did she think the bailout was the worst or best of Washington?
2) What would she do as VP to combat political polarization?
3) If she doesn’t know whether humans helped cause global warming, why does she want to “clean up this planet”?
4) What should the plan for the exit strategy from Iraq be?
5) What should be the trigger on nuclear weapons use?
6) Is there a line that should be drawn before the US goes into areas like Kosovo or Darfur?
7) What is her “real” achilles heel, if not lack of experience?
Are there any policy views she has been forced to change due to changing circumstances?
9) Did the “mainstream media” edit out all the Supreme Court cases and newspapers she mentioned in her interview with Katie Couric, or did she not answer those questions, either?
There were more questions that she answered with a yes or no, without expanding, but I won’t include those here, as at least I have an answer, if not any details.
Thanks in advance for anyone who can answer these for me.
“Can anyone here tell me of any debate going back to Reagan that the Democrat didn’t win, or that the next day the media declared the Republican the winner?”
Jesus, Dennis, are you attacking people for supporting their chosen political candidates? Is there a bebate going back to Reagan that you thought a Republican lost? Care to name ‘em?
If you want to lay out your criteria for determining who won the debate and then explain how Palin met those criteria and Biden failed to, please feel free. Otherwise, what the hell is your point? That people for Obama/Biden felt Biden did a good job? Hard hitting stuff, Dennis.
I for one felt Biden was thrown off his game by Palin’s incessant stream of populist-style (note style) chattering, especially at the beginning. He seemed truly disarmed by it. I think he rallied at the end but on style, again, listening on the radio, Palin came off as overall in command of, at least, her personal persona.
Now if you want to talk command of facts and policy, Palin clearly blew it. Not only did she repeat a number of outright lies, she couldn’t even get her party or her running mates positions right on a number of issues.
I imagine that if you parsed her speech, the word she most frequently uttered was “Again.”
She almost invariably prefaces any remarks that are going to be unresponsive boilerplate to questions she won’t answer wit “Again…”
I didn’t listen/watch/care. If I’m wrong, let me know…
Now if you want to talk command of facts and policy, Palin clearly blew it.
The Democrats would do well to soberly remember that for a depressingly and no-longer-surprisingly large group of voters, a command of the facts and policy comes off as arrogant and elitist. I see it as the American contradiction; we want presidents to be like us until we need them to be better than us (with regard to political knowledge, at least). I caught a snip of Sean Hannity the other day basically arguing that since most people didn’t know anything about past supreme court cases, that made it okay that Gov. Palin didn’t.
If you have trouble wrapping your mind around that one, congratulations. Your brain is still in good working order.
Thanks Oliver. Anyone who thinks that Palin won is either one of those commentators whose job it is to prop up Palin as a legitimate candidate by promoting personality in an effort to sway the easily confused – or is a card carrying member of the ECVA*.
*Easily Confused Voters of America
7) What is her “real” achilles heel, if not lack of experience?
Yeah, she totally did not answer that at all.
Of course the ‘Bush debate effect’ needs to be factored in – the Governor didn’t hold up a ‘hi mom’ sign, so she’s spotted ten points right there.
Pretty close, though.
“Big shout out to Ms. ______’s class for watching this debate, you all get extra credit.”
Few minds were changed by last night’s proceedings, given that most voters are either Democrats or Republicans, and see mostly positive attributes and candor in those they support. This was not the Couric environment, Palin alluded to that, and made no major gaffes sans flubbing a general’s surname. And people expect Biden to be informed and persuasive- he’s been in the Senate since the 1970’s.
The election will be decided in Nevada, New Mexico, Colorado, Virginia, Florida, North Carolina and Ohio. If Obama wins two of those, Palin will be off the political radar until 2012.
From Britannica:
Bosniac people
Main
Aspects of this topic are discussed in the following places at Britannica.
Assorted References
* Bosnia and Herzegovina ( in Bosnia and Herzegovina: Bosnia in communist Yugoslavia )
…emigrated. In the 1991 census Muslims made up more than two-fifths of the Bosnian population, while Serbs made up slightly less than one-third and Croats one-sixth. From the mid-1990s, the term Bosniac had replaced Muslim as the name for this group.
As you can see, Biden was accurate in his statement.
Like Kryptonite to stupid indeed!
How did Biden win? By showing that he is a foreign policy expert? We knew that. Few people, if any, could substantively win a debate against Biden on foreign policy and military issues. Biden was supposed to wipe the floor with her, which he did not do. She appears extremely composed and sure of herself which again, we were led to believe would not be the case.
Bottom line is if you are a die-hard Democrat there is nothing you saw or could have seen to convince you (at least not publicly) that Biden didn’t win. Biden could have drooled for an hour and a half and Olbermann, etc. would still gush about how great he did. And if you are a die-hard Republican the same holds true for Palin (except it wouldn’t be Olbermann doing the gushing). It’s all about party lines as it always is. Just look at the commentators all over. The Democrat-leaning are wowed about Biden and the Republican-leaning are wowed about Palin.
For people in the middle though don’t underestimate her appeal. In theory the smartest most experienced person should always win. But if experience and substance was so important, Obama wouldn’t be the Democrat’s nominee, probably Biden or Richardson would. In fact, neither would likely have picked Obama to be their VP. Moreover, just because you are the smartest person in the room doesn’t mean you have a lick of judgment or common sense.
Obama’s appeal is no different than Palin’s — just that Obama uses bigger words. Both can give a great speech (McCain surely cannot) and both are very eloquent in their own way and can effectively resonate with an audience.
Hedley: She appears extremely composed and sure of herself
Being sure of oneself means nothing. I’ve met many idiots who are positively, certainly convinced they were right.
It’s all about party lines as it always is
Got that absolutely right. But one can move beyond that and apply objective criteria. Put aside “expectations” and whether one side did better or worse than was expected, for example. Look at whether someone provided specifics or generalities. Whether a candidate answered questions or spouted unrelated talking points.
If a transcript of the debate were shown to folks where the identities of the speaker were hidden, I’m sure the majority of people would say that candidate A was not as knowledgeable or as qualified as candidate B. And B would be Biden.
Hedley: Obama’s appeal is no different than Palin’s
I don’t think that’s true. Palin’s appeal seems to be more of the “I’m folksy and one of you” nice-to-have-a-bear-with variety. Obama’s is also “connected to the common people” but with more of an and-he-impresses-me aspect.
Biden was supposed to wipe the floor with her, which he did not do.
If he had, and I think we can all agree he could have, we’d be hearing nonstop whining about how mean he was to the girl.
Hedley, why should Palin be able to play on a level playing field. In politics this high level, the playing field is anything BUT level, and she should get used to that.
How did Biden win? By showing that he is a foreign policy expert? We knew that.
Translation:
“WHAAAAAAA!!!! It’s not fair. Biden had an advantage over Palin by being smart.”
Few people, if any, could substantively win a debate against Biden on foreign policy and military issues.
Few people are also running for the office of the VP.
She appears extremely composed and sure of herself which again, we were led to believe would not be the case.
I don’t know who led you to believe that. We’ve been saying that she’s just an idiot.
Bottom line is if you are a die-hard Democrat there is nothing you saw or could have seen to convince you (at least not publicly) that Biden didn’t win.
That would be because Palin’s a loser.
Biden could have drooled for an hour and a half and Olbermann, etc. would still gush about how great he did.
Project much?
And if you are a die-hard Republican the same holds true for Palin (except it wouldn’t be Olbermann doing the gushing).
Fair enough.
The Democrat-leaning are wowed about Biden and the Republican-leaning are wowed about Palin.
Not for the same reasons, mind you.
Moreover, just because you are the smartest person in the room doesn’t mean you have a lick of judgment or common sense.
Granted, but the stupidest person is LESS likely to have those. Gotta go with the odds.
Hedley: She appears extremely composed and sure of herself
So does George W. Bush. What’s your point?
“Just because you are the smartest person in the room doesn’t mean you have a lick of judgement or common sense.”
See that’s the part where Hedley reveals what all conservatives have in common: a HUGE inferiority complex.
If Obama was white, this election would not be a race but a landslide victory for the Dems.
This may seem like a non sequiter but here it goes – if Obama was white, this election would not be a race but a landslide for the Dems.