China in racing us to the moon right now, and their timeline is just as aggressive as our timeline for a return to the moon. With the priorities of changing administrations, we might not even go again at all.

If China beats us there this time, it won’t matter that we went in 1969.

This isn’t about religious freedom vs. totalitarianism. This is about a country that is stepping into capitalist arena with a huge base of ready to work labor and a country that is actively pulling all the right levers to attract Western investment. Western companies drool at the cost of Chinese labor, thus Western jobs have matriculated East.

Any complaints about Chinese human rights abuses (and other related subjects) really need to be directed at the multi-national corporations who do business with them. That is the real moral issue. The multi-nationals don’t really care about human rights issues so long as the bottom line looks great. Profits reign over concerns about human condition. This has been proven time and time again in both the world markets and on America’s main street. We love (and now depend on) cheap Chinese products.

All of this brings us back to Chinese attempts at becoming a nation that can send astronauts into space, making scientific discovery and becoming an economic super-power. The space walk shows they are beginning to succeed in all of these areas.

The problem is this: History has show that it takes a strong economy to build a strong military. The United States still has the lead in terms of military technology and advancement, but if the Chinese can continue their economic trajectory, they will be in a position to buy the military expertise they may be lacking. When you factor in the huge dichotomy of populations (1.3 billion vs. 320 million) the writing is on the wall. At some point in the deep future the Chinese may relax their policies on human rights, and this would even the playing field considerably. Imagine 1.3 billion or more citizens in China enjoying the kinds of freedom and opportunity that we currently enjoy. In that scenario you would see a true Super Power waiting in the wings ready to assert whatever it desires. If China wants world domination, it’s certainly well prepared and very capable.

Wake up…we need to get to work here in the US. We’re well on our way to becoming serfs of the Chinese economic powerhouse. In many ways, we’re already there.

Bruce – exactly. We’re beneficiaries of the long northern and western European history of republican (small r) government, the current arc beginning in the 1300s with the balance of power leaning generally more toward a representative legislature and away from the executive ever since. These other countries (former colonies all, not surprisingly) are moving at their own pace. Obviously the UN’s idea of human rights needs to be supported, but the world is more nuanced than ‘noble capitalists vs. eeeevil commies and terrorists.’

If Bill Gates comes along and say “Hey Jay, why the F aren’t you donating 500 million dollars to the poor kids in Africa??” and you’d say “ehh, cuz I dont have that much money you prick, but I do donate 500 bucks each year I think its good enough” and he’d laugh and you’d kill him.

Compare China’s now with China’s then, you’ll see what the country has accomplished. Do you realize how long it took the US to “correct itselves”? Are you gonna give China the time to correct itself as well? Don’t you hate it when your parents use to say, “dont do this dont do that I’ve been there I know…”, do you actually listen to them? I hopd not, you gotta find your our way out, and thats good for the kid.

China gotta do that too, they are the most unique economy in the world, no one walked their path before (except USSR and they failed), so they gonna figure it out by themselves, not from someone who’s already got to the finish line and yelling “hey stupid, why didn’t you take that way?”.

China is not all that bad, look at new orlands vs the flood that goes on in China every year, the chinese government is always a lot more devoted and very effective at getting people out of the mess; then you look at what the US government did…

hurch Secretary, there is NOT ONE THING the United States does today that comes close to the treatment China gives its subjects

Really Mr. Tea?

Let’s recall that owning people–buying and selling their bodies at will–was once the law of the land. Written into our very founding documents.

Even if I spot you that the Chinese government is brutal in its treatment of dissidents, you don’t think slavery even comes close?

I said “does today,” and you decide that I’m wrong because of something that ended almost 150 years ago.

I call it the “clean hands” fallacy. Because we have been imperfect in the past, we have no moral standing to condemn those who act reprehensibly today. It’s a chickenshit argument, put forth by those who lack the courage to stand up and say “X is wrong” without equivocating.

Yes, the US has done some terrible things in our past. But WE CORRECTED OURSELVES.

And that has absolutely nothing to do with China treating its subjects today like chattel. Nothing.

J.

What a lot of people failed to realize is that it only took China 30 years to get from the war torn country (and damage did by Mao) to what you see in the Olympics.

Japan and Germany rebuilt quickly after the war too but they were industrized country to begin with before the war, and the US help A LOT; where as China after the war and afte Mao had died (around 78 or 79 I think, and from after WWII till Mao’s death China didn’t really go anywhere), had nothing and were not getting much help from anyone (except Soviet but the relationship did not last long at all).

When you think of it, 30 years ago, China was like what North Korea looked like, and now it had just hosted the most successful Olympics and sent 3 people up in space. When western world look at China thinking oh its a threat to us and they will get us someday, maybe they should really look at China as Hope, hope that a country used to be just like North Korea can come to this point and really open up and in most part, a peaceful country in the world.

Of course they have problems, tainted food, human rights, etc., but who doesn’t? Keep in mind China was raped by all the big powers in the late 1800 and early 1900 till end of WWII, and China used 30 years to achieve what western countries achieved in more than 100 years, ain’t gonna be smooth sailing after that rush. Also, China has to feed 1.3 billion people, 1.3 billion! If you increase the US population to 1.3 billion, it’d probably have ALL the problems China’s facing, actually probably more with the current leadership…

By the way, it isn’t scary that China is going to the moon. It is a good thing. The moon ain’t ours. The plaque placed on the moon by Apollo 11 says

Here Men From The Planet Earth First Set Foot Upon the Moon, July 1969 A.D. We Came in Peace For All Mankind

The US space program needs direction and leadership. My preference is for a Mars mission, but it is clear from the current state of things that’s not going to be a front-burner deal.

1) They fought and drove out the Japanese, while America’s crooked preferred Chinese overlord Chung Kai-Shek retreated inland.

2) Marxism was equated with anti-imperialism (primarily because of Lenin’s influence), and the Chinese were understandably sick of western powers interfering in their affairs. The Marxists promised to be nobody’s puppet, and indeed, even taking into account the daliances with the USSR, they have not been.

3) As in Ho’s Vietnam and Castro’s Cuba (and S. Korea, where the communists enjoyed widespread popularity), the idea of seizing land from an extreme minority wealthy gentry and western owners for the benefit of an impoverished peasantry was self-evidently appealing. Obviously it has not worked that way, but basically, the extreme upward concentration of wealth in those countries invited a popular communist insurgency.

This is a lot more complicated than white hats and black hats, JT. Careful who you accuse of propping up dictatorships.

Really Mr. Tea?

Let’s recall that owning people–buying and selling their bodies at will–was once the law of the land. Written into our very founding documents.

Even if I spot you that the Chinese government is brutal in its treatment of dissidents, you don’t think slavery even comes close?

You do realize that the US is on the verge of losing it’s ability to send people into space at all. We’re down to a couple relic shuttles, with no replacement launch vehicle on the near horizon.

And for you to excuse their ongoing, systemic, habitual violations of the most basic of human rights by saying “oh, well, America’s done bad stuff, too,” is nothing short of disgusting.

J.

The key word here being “citizens.” How did the U.S. become a ‘legit’ superpower? I’m sure it had nothing to do with the genocide of the aboriginal population and four-plus centuries of chattel slavery and oppression of Africans and their descendants. I’m sure that growth to ‘legit’ superpower status also had nothing to do with oppressing our Latin American neighbors in service of economic gain. In all seriousness, OW, the biggest difference between Chinese oppression and our ‘legit’ oppression is that we managed to perform ours largely against carefully (or opportunistically) selected ‘others.’

Not that anyone here is singing China’s praises, but a nation in our glass house (with our current involvement in two foreign wars of imperialist agression, and especially with our deepening negative trade balance and debt to China) is in no position to throw snide little stones at anyone else.

First up, when Marx made his opiate analogy, opiates were seen as GOOD things by a lot of people — they brought relief to suffering folks and helped them feel better.

Next, Lennon’s “Imagine” is one of the biggest crocks of bullshit ever recorded. Beautiful song, but sheer unbridled fantasy by one of the greatest con artists who ever lived — an insanely successful capitalist who made mega-millions denouncing capitalism. As Howard Stern once put it — “Hey, Yoko, imagine there’s no money!”

But back to the topic at hand… right now, I think that China’s space program is more capable than ours is. They have destroyed satellites in orbit. They currently have a vehicle that can at least match the Shuttle for reaching orbit, and are closer to putting a man on the moon than we are — and have said that is their goal.

This is something to worry about.

J.

However, on the question of Religion – the appalling stupidity of Religion was OK when as Marx put it “Religion is the opiate of the people.” Unfortunately, in the muslim world, the jewish world and the christian world the crazies are slowly taking over the respective religions. Those of us that CLEARLY understand religion – in my case I was going to become a Catholic Priest before I became an athiest – can no longer sit by and let religious beliefs go unchallenged.

So Oliver bearing in mind that – I love your site – love you – and respect you – IF you’re a Christian , Jew or Muslim here’s ONE of literally hundreds of good reason’s why you’re wrong. Not STUPID just IGNORANT (and I mean that in a nice way – not a mean one).

I think the time has come that the world should stop “accepting” “leadership” from the people of the “Book.” As Bob Dylan sang, “… the times they are a-changin’…”

Think about this; Jews, Muslims and Christians, the people of the “Book,” believe that a god, created the universe, made us in his image, gave us dominion over this cute little third planet from this sun, in this lovely galaxy, and then, in just one example of his many personal explicit crimes, he purposely drowned everyone, except for the a few of the “just” that could fit in Noah’s boat. The god they believe in, from their own “book,” is a self-confessed homicidal mass murderer!

That is not what’s so alarming. More alarming is that, not only do these deluded people believe this nonsense, they actually worship the homicidal mass murderer that did this atrocity and countless others. They actually venerate him, and look forward to spending eternity “in his loving embrace.”

Unfortunately, it gets even worse. All three religions believe their “Messiah” is going to come and deal with their enemies and save them…the humorous side of this is that each of the three “religions,” and their literally thousands of sub-religions and cults, believe the other two religions, and their respective plethora of cults, are whom their “Messiah” is going to save them from…

The older I get the more I think John Lennon had it right in the 60′s when he wrote…

“Imagine there’s no Heaven
It’s easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky…
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace…
You may say that I’m a dreamer
But I’m not the only one
I hope someday you’ll join us
And the world will live as one.”

Amusingly, many of the people of the “Book” I’ve talked to about this think I’m the one that’s a few bricks short of a load.

Good Grief Charlie Brown!