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Oliver,
We are allowed to use anonymous blog posters as primary sources of information now?
Factual Sources please.
Anonymous blog poster this:
John, the source seemed pretty clear from the excerpt quoted, but the statement is here: http://www.naral.org/elections/election-pr/pr08292008_palin.html
She was quoted as saying that if her teenage daughter was raped she would choose life. Ouch. I don’t think that’s going to play with independent women.
http://www.juneauempire.com/stories/101906/sta_20061019031.shtml
A link would be nice instead of the 50 regurgitations of a DNC/Obama’08 talking point I found listed on various forums.
The issue was never answered fully. Her campaign manager mentioned an exception in the case of the mother’s health. She never said she opposed abortion in case of rape or incest.
So I would say its a VALID QUESTION. But not an HONEST ASSERTION.
I need to make an avatar on here so Quaker and others remember me and my numerous exclamations of being Pro-Choice.
Oliver, I think there are tons of extreme positions that Palin has taken that should keep her from becoming VP, but aren’t you forgetting to acknowledge something? Come on, this would be one small step for a woman, and one giant leap for all milfkind.
To a major part of the Republican base Sarah Palin is applauded on this issue.
The Republican Christian Conservatives and Pro Life are loving John McCain’s VP pick on this very issue. They are gearing up to go after Joe Biden, a devote Catholic that is Pro Choice. They are talking about not allowing him to take communion like they did John Kerry.
I think a poster at hillaryclintonforum.net put it best when she said she did not like the idea of Roe v. Wade being the single issue that women rely upon as a decision for a candidate. Women are as storied and diverse as men in regards to issues, politics, and political stances.
It’s time that people accept that there will never be full agreement on this issue, just as there will never be a finalized decision on which Christian faith is the most correct in practice of the Bible’s teachings.
Women look at the whole picture. Gov. Sarah Palin is more than a Pro-Life (”Anti-Choice”) wonk. McCain selected her due to her ethics and reform background, departing from the Republican Party Status Quo, her policies on Energy “Independence” and a host of other issues. Bringing the Evangelicals and Feminists to the party was only a part of the decision.
Why is it so hard for people to look at others as a whole, not just single talking points.
I pay that respect to Barack Obama and Joe Biden. I am hoping that Democrats and Independents in favor of Obama/Biden will do the same.
Please John, Palin is all kinds of scum. Not only does she want to ruin the lives of tens of thousands of rape victims by forcing them to carry their rapist’s child to term, she also seems to favor using her position to help her family members get revenge on their exes. When called on it, she then accuses those eces of abuse, without any prior claims or arrests.
Theres plenty there for men and women to hate about her. To women, She’s like the church-going aunt who calls you a slut at family functions because you don’t dress like a nun. To men, she’s the psycho- ex girlfriend who throws a brick through your windshield, and when you call the cops because of it, she has YOU arrested for ‘abuse’.
Any amount of disaffected Hillary supporters you gain who suddenly decide that abortion no longer matters will be more than made up for in men who have been through custody battles or divorces who you will lose.
Soullite, I think they have medication for that now.
She never said she opposed abortion in case of rape or incest.
Her campaign manager did, and he’s quoted saying so in the article you linked:
Why is it so hard for people to look at others as a whole, not just single talking points.
Because public leaders have to govern on many different issues. You have to look at their positions on each one. The only way to summarize “the whole person” is by the R or D tag after their names.
To a major part of the Republican base Sarah Palin is applauded on this issue.
News flash, Chester. That ain’t us.
I guess we’re in trouble when the new VP sits down to write the law about abortion. Oh wait…
“I guess we’re in trouble when the new VP sits down to write the law about abortion. Oh wait…”
This is just too classic. It’s hard to believe the denial has set in this quickly. Scratch, do you really think it’s gonna help McCain to have Palin tell millions of women during the VP debate that if she had her way, if they were raped she’d force them to bring their rapist’s child to term?
You can oppose legal abortion if you want but there are extreme positions on the anti-choice side and that’s about as extreme as it gets. And it’s got nothing to do with her ability to create legislation on abortion or not. It’s a completely repugnant notion to millions of Americans, men and women. Just saying it out loud, for crissakes, would be enough to turn off millions of voters.
If today’s delusion on the part of hardcore conservatives is any indication, this is going to be one hell of an amusing campaign.
I guess we’re in trouble when the new VP sits down to write the law about abortion.
Yes, she won’t write it. She will, however, have both the power of influence and, if it ever came to it, the power to break a tie vote.
These rapture bunnies all believe in predestination. Palin thinks rape victims were destined to get raped and having an abortion is going against God’s will
Hi fafaroo…
I’m actually more pro-choice than not. I have just recently been thinking how glad I am that we are past the single-issue days in the 80’s and 90’s, when abortion seemed to be a litmus test for both sides. Now it appears that the left wants to try to bring those days back.
To answer your question, no, I do not think it would help McCain to have Palin say those things. Of course, I do not expect her to say those things. I expect her, if asked (and I’m certain she will be,) to state her opinion, then describe how she would apply that opinion in the execution of her office. And I doubt that application will involve writing new laws. At worst, IF she becomes President and IF she is able to nominate a Supreme Court Justice, then she MAY choose to nominate a judge who is adamantly pro-life. And the chances of such a judge being confirmed…? I think the voters have a lot more pressing issues on their plate this time around.
In short, I expect both McCain and Palin will directly answer policy questions, without nuance and without trying to have it both ways. We’ve already seen McCain do that. Then the voters can have their choice.
McPalin ‘08!
“I have just recently been thinking how glad I am that we are past the single-issue days in the 80’s and 90’s, when abortion seemed to be a litmus test for both sides.”
Which is why McCain and the Republicans seriously considered a pro-choice candidate. Oh wait, no they didn’t.
The Obama camp is not going to delve into the abortion issue. Obama’s views on abortion are extreme and he’s going to have to answer for that no-vote on the Induced Infant Liability Act while a state Senator in Illinois. A similar bill was passed in the US Congress with only 15 members of the House voting against it, and passing unanimously in the Senate on a voice vote. Even NARAL wasn’t opposed to that bill.
When you’re to the left of NARAL on an issue, that’s extreme. So trust me, they won’t go anywhere near Palin’s pro-life record.
“I guess we’re in trouble when the new VP sits down to write the law about abortion. Oh wait…”
If VPs are not important, why have them?
“The Obama camp is not going to delve into the abortion issue. Obama’s views on abortion are extreme and he’s going to have to answer for that no-vote on the Induced Infant Liability Act while a state Senator in Illinois. A similar bill was passed in the US Congress with only 15 members of the House voting against it, and passing unanimously in the Senate on a voice vote. Even NARAL wasn’t opposed to that bill.”
You are either lying or passing on lies. Either way, shut the fuck up until you have you facts straight.
CS, everything I wrote was absolutely true so stuff it you prick.
Who was arguable the most powerful president in the second half of teh 20th century?
Ronald Reagan
What happened to abortion laws when Reagan was President?
Nothing
At the end of the day, true conservatives aren’t all that interested in abortion laws. They talk the talk at prayer breakfasts, etc, but aren’t really anxious to change the status quo. They all have a right to their opinions as well. Palin in fact walks the walk, when her most recent child was diagnoses as a trisomy 21 while in utero.
But I understand lefties, this women is going to wreck the divine elevation of The Obama, and I think most of you know it.
“I think the voters have a lot more pressing issues on their plate this time around.”
And yet aside from the sheer stunt-factor, McCain’s selection of Palin was also designed to allay the doubts of the hard core Evangelical right. Now, you and Jay seem to believe that McCain and Palin will not make one of the hard rights most precious issues a part of their campaign – despite the fact, as Jay suggests that Obama is somehow vulnerable on the abortion issue.
Either you guys just can’t resolve either of your contradictory talking points, or McCain’s supposedly “bold” choice is just another example of Republican pandering to a voting block whose agenda they have no intention of actually acting on.
yea it is the latter. Just as Reagan did. I believe they are all personally against abortion, but they also aren’t going to change the federal law against it.
I, like Barry Goldwater, am pro-choice. And ultimately every republican president since Roe v Wade is as well, as demonstrated by the complete lack of any change in abortion law. It is just a convenient bugaboo for the leftists to drag out when their other canards aren’t working….
And yet aside from the sheer stunt-factor
You said she was a “woeful choice” earlier. Before that, you said it was “desperate.” Now you’re saying it’s a stunt. Make up your mind.
McCain’s selection of Palin was also designed to allay the doubts of the hard core Evangelical right.
So? In what political world do you live in that shoring up the base of your support is a bad thing? When was the last time a pro-life candidate was on a Democratic ticket?
Now, you and Jay seem to believe that McCain and Palin will not make one of the hard rights most precious issues a part of their campaign – despite the fact, as Jay suggests that Obama is somehow vulnerable on the abortion issue.
The political landscape has changed Fafaroo. While a large part of the conservative base in the GOP wants to see pro-life candidates, it is no longer an issue that anybody really gets raised in campaigns. The last time I remember it being a big issue was 1992. Obama is ‘vulnerable’ on the issue only if he decides to make Palin’s position an issue. Other than that, it’s a non-starter.
McCain’s supposedly “bold” choice is just another example of Republican pandering to a voting block whose agenda they have no intention of actually acting on.
And who said the choice was bold because she’s pro-life? There was only one candidate that was on the consideration radar that was pro-choice and that was Lieberman.
Sarah Palin was a desperate stunt, a very desperate stunt that is temporarily working, as Ann Coulter would say “swimmingly.”
The Republicans and Bush Administration may be able to stop the investigation of Palin’s Wootengate Scandal, but they won’t be able to stop the National Inquirer, The Insider and Star from digging up dirt on the hottest Governor in the US.
What was up with the upcoming Vogue Magazine cover in her sheer top? She must not have believed she had a chance at being selected or she did believe McCain did have a chance in HELL to win.
What was up with the upcoming Vogue Magazine cover in her sheer top?
And it begins. The ‘tolerant’ left will now go the “bimbo” route.
Stay classy, left wingers.
“You said she was a “woeful choice” earlier. Before that, you said it was “desperate.” Now you’re saying it’s a stunt. Make up your mind.”
It’s a woeful, desperate stunt, Jay. Was it so hard to put that together yourself?
In what political world do you live in that shoring up the base of your support is a bad thing?
How about when you have absolutely no intention of bringing up or addressing your bases’ core issue during you campaign let alone doing anything about it when your in office?
While a large part of the conservative base in the GOP wants to see pro-life candidates, it is no longer an issue that anybody really gets raised in campaigns.
And yet not a few sentences before you agree that McCain picked Palin to shore up his base support with Evangelical Christians for whom abortion is indeed a major issue. You wanna make up you’re mind? The Evangelicals didn’t trust Romney on the abortion issue and even McCain criticized Romney’s abortion “bona fides” during the primaries: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,281858,00.html Another short lister for McCain was Tom Ridge who was passed over because of his position on abortion:
And by the way, the idea that Obama is vulnerable on abortion is ridiculous. If you want to talk about issues no one really raises in campaigns, it’s bullshit, gotcha legislation like the Induced Infant Liability Act. Do you really think Obama’s vote on that bill is going to impact his support among Dems and moderates? Not a chance. Do you think even a significant number of voters even know what that bill was about? I’ll tell it’s a vastly smaller number than the number of people who would recognize instantly how extreme Palin’s position on abortion is.
The only voters who really care or even know what the IILA is are the extremist Evangelicals and the pundits who cater to them. And they started bringing it up long before Palin was chosen and it hasn’t hurt Obama one bit.
So don’t even start with the abortion will only come up if Obama brings it up. McCain choice of Palin is pure political pandering to the conservative base, and once again, Evangelicals have taken the bait.
If VPs are not important, why have them?
Please.
Jay, there is no conservative hack is better and more accomplished at keeping the Evangelical base sucking up the swill of Republican promises than Hugh Hewitt. Here is on Palin:
Sarah Palin is a real deal conservative, down the line, on all of the issues. This has the immediate effect of energizing the base to battle to keep the White House and to close the gap in or take back the House of Representatives. It is especially important that she is ardently pro-life, and the story of her family is certain to resonate with those values voters who prize faith and family as the center of life.
If, as you say, McCain and Palin aren’t planning to really discuss or do anything about abortion rights in this country, then WTF is Hewitt talking about?
“Sarah Palin was a desperate stunt, a very desperate stunt that is temporarily working, as Ann Coulter would say ’swimmingly.’”
Who wants to take bets that Palin bails from the campaign for “family reasons” sometime in late September/early October?
I’ll take some of that, fafaroo.
“And it begins. The ‘tolerant’ left will now go the ‘bimbo’ route.”
I believe the Vogue comment was pointing out the hypocrisy of the culture cops on the Right, Jay. Naturally, of course, you see your job here as scolding liberals for their hypocrisy, so why should I expect you to recognize this?
fafaroo, what’s this about a Vogue cover?
It’s a woeful, desperate stunt, Jay.
Yeah, well…opinions are like assholes. Everybody has one.
How about when you have absolutely no intention of bringing up or addressing your bases’ core issue during you campaign let alone doing anything about it when your in office?
You still didn’t answer the question. I’m pro-life. McCain’s choice of Palin helped make me a stronger supporter of his candidacy. But guess what? I don’t expect them to go out and start a campaign when they take office to overturn Roe v Wade.
And yet not a few sentences before you agree that McCain picked Palin to shore up his base support with Evangelical Christians for whom abortion is indeed a major issue. You wanna make up you’re mind?
Dude, stop for a moment. And think. For once. Please. Stop being such a reactionary for just one second. Shoring up the base means having candidates that base voters will support. It does not mean they expect those candidates to go out and start pushing legislation in favor of that position.
And by the way, the idea that Obama is vulnerable on abortion is ridiculous.
Once again you fail to read for content. He’s not vulnerable, just so long as he doesn’t decide to make an issue of Palin’s position.
If you want to talk about issues no one really raises in campaigns, it’s bullshit, gotcha legislation like the Induced Infant Liability Act. Do you really think Obama’s vote on that bill is going to impact his support among Dems and moderates? Not a chance.
Against Democrats? No. Impact his support with moderates? You bet your ass it will.
Do you think even a significant number of voters even know what that bill was about? I’ll tell it’s a vastly smaller number than the number of people who would recognize instantly how extreme Palin’s position on abortion is.
This is a national campaign champ. As I said, if the Obama campaign is going to go at Palin’s views on abortion, you can bet that millions of American voters will know what that bill was about and know what a repugnant decision it was to oppose such legislation.
The only voters who really care or even know what the IILA is are the extremist Evangelicals and the pundits who cater to them. And they started bringing it up long before Palin was chosen and it hasn’t hurt Obama one bit.
Of course. That’s because it was contained with the realm of conservative punditry and talk radio. It hasn’t been in the mainstream.
McCain choice of Palin is pure political pandering to the conservative base, and once again, Evangelicals have taken the bait.
Blah blah blah blah.
Your act is tiring dude. Really.
Yeah, well…opinions are like assholes. Everybody has one.
Did you think that up yourself, Jay? At any rate, it’s wrong. I have two.
Opinions, not assholes.
I believe the Vogue comment was pointing out the hypocrisy of the culture cops on the Right, Jay.
Oh right. Like conservatives are going to be put off by a woman appearing on the cover of Vogue?
Jeebus Effing Christmas. Project much?
fafaroo, what’s this about a Vogue cover?
Sarah Palin appeared on the cover of Vogue. Link below. Fafaroo in his bottomless pit of asininity, believes conservatives are going to get their panties in a bunch over the photo. Of course, this is the same kind of projection we dealt with the other day when a few others of Fafaroo’s ilk said that the GOP would never select somebody like Bobby Jindal as a running mate because “he’s too brown” ignoring the fact the man was elected in Louisiana where he became the first non-white elected to as Governor since reconstruction.
So when they start in (as they have here) with all of the “bimbo” nonsense, they’ll retreat into the pathetic excuse that Fafaroo offered up.
http://progressivealaska.blogspot.com/2007/12/kodkon-scoops-vogue.html
That cover is a photoshop! Check out this link at which the original poster owns up to the joke.
She did appear in Vogue, but not on the cover (as far as I know): “But don’t let her black or red power suits fool you; the fashion photographer quickly learned this week that Palin is an Alaska girl at heart.
“At first they had me in a bunch of furs,” she said. “Yeah, I have furs on my wall, but I don’t wear furs. I had to show them my bunny boots and my North Face clothing.”
Photographers took shots of Palin — often including her daughters Bristol, 17, Willow, 13, and Piper, 6 — to be published in an upcoming issue.”
I smell a scandal!
Stay classy, left wingers.
You mean like George Bush and Karl Rove during the 2000 Republican primary in South Carolina? Why do you hold people to standards different then what you hold yourself to?
“Yeah, well…opinions are like assholes. Everybody has one.”
Same with cliches, jay. Nice come back.
Scratch, aha! Good catch.
Oh right. Like conservatives are going to be put off by a woman appearing on the cover of Vogue?
I do seem to remember quite a lot of hoohawing from the right when a certain Ms. Plame showed up in Vogue. Or was it Harper’s Bazaar? Whatever.
Quaker…
It was Vanity Fair…a very appropriate name. Plame has said she regrets the story. I doubt Palin will regret participating in a story about women in leadership.
“Like conservatives are going to be put off by a woman appearing on the cover of Vogue? Jeebus Effing Christmas. Project much?”
Oh yeah, right. Conservatives hate Cosmo: http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/9914.html
“That’s because it was contained with the realm of conservative punditry and talk radio. It hasn’t been in the mainstream”.
So you’re acknowledging that conservative punditry and talk radio is not “in the mainstream”? Cool!
“CS, everything I wrote was absolutely true so stuff it you prick.”
No it was, Jay you fucking liar. The bill that passed Federally was a significantly different than the one Obama voted against.
If you weren’t such a right wing tool, you would know that.
So yes Jay, what you said was a fucking lie.
Me: “If VPs are not important, why have them?”
Scratch: “Please.”
That’s your response? Your whole response?
Why bother responding if you are not going to saying anything.
The simple matter is, what the V.P. thinks matters because they are one heartbeat away from being president. If you don’t understand that, you are in the wrong country.
I’m pro-life. McCain’s choice of Palin helped make me a stronger supporter of his candidacy. But guess what? I don’t expect them to go out and start a campaign when they take office to overturn Roe v Wade.
And are you an Evangelical Christian for whom abortion was a litmus for VP choice? Abortion clearly is a litmus test issue for a lot of the people whose support McCain was trying to shore up with his choice of Palin. According to Hugh Hewitt, Palin accomplishes that goal. But who cares if neither McCain or Palin are actually going to do anything to promote the Evangelical agenda? You know if you’re not going to read for context, Jay, I don’t know why you expect the rest of us to.
Shoring up the base means having candidates that base voters will support. It does not mean they expect those candidates to go out and start pushing legislation in favor of that position.
Wait, and I’m the one who needs to stop and think? So you think McCain can shore up his base without ever talking about, advocating or acting on its agenda? Good luck with that.
That’s because it was contained with the realm of conservative punditry and talk radio. It hasn’t been in the mainstream.
So the hardcore right is already attacking Obama for his vote on this bill because it’s something that matters to them deeply but they won’t care if McCain never takes up the attack or actually does anything with the abortion issue during the campaign? Really?
And even if this issue went mainstream, it won’t, again, do a thing to Obama’s support among Dems, moderates or independents. No one but the hard core right gives a shit about this kind of gotcha legislation. It especially won’t hurt Obama when all he has to do is point to Palin’s position and tell women: “If you get pregnant as the result of rape, McCain VP think you should be forced to carry the child to term.” Obama wins that hands down, so bring it.
There is no way, McCain or Palin can win independent women with a position like that. The majority of Americans include rape, incest and the health of the mother as reasonable reasons to keep abortion legal.
“Like conservatives are going to be put off by a woman appearing on the cover of Vogue?”
Right, again, Jay. They just have a problem with women appearing on the cover and in the pages of Vanity Fair: http://michellemalkin.com/2008/04/29/the-seduction-of-hannah-montana/
Fafaroo, I’m sure that Jay will respond with “but Miley Cyrus is a girl, not a woman!” ignoring the fact that Malkin also skewers one of the VF covers Leibovitz shot with WOMEN Scarlett Johannson and Keira Knightley.
Please John, Palin is all kinds of scum.
This is the kind of talk that really upsets me. We can oppose her ideas and disagree with her positions without calling her scum.
It’s this sort of bullshit that has me really sour on supposed liberal blogs.
By disagreeing at times with the Obama campaign, I have been called a racist. By disagreeing at times with the Clinton campaign, I was called a sexist. By disagreeing with our feminist bloggers about child custody decisions, I am called a likely rapist, an unfit parent, a pedophile, and a wife beater.
This is all just shitty ways to treat other people. Dehumanizing people to delegitimize their arguments has never been the right path.
Palin has all sorts of positions that I object to. And I think I can make that argument without calling her scum.
Your concern is noted, Jerry.
On the one hand, we have this:
Jay: You’re a liar!
CSS: Nuh-uh, you are!
Jay: You’re a bigger one!
CSS: Nuh-uh, YOU!
Jay: YOU!
CSS: Big fat stupid!
Jay: You’re stupider!
And on the other hand, “voices of reason”, like John and Jerry.
All equally boring.
C’mon, people. Argue your merits, wirh passion and without name-calling.
“On the one hand, we have this:
Jay: You’re a liar!
CSS: Nuh-uh, you are!
Jay: You’re a bigger one!
CSS: Nuh-uh, YOU!
Jay: YOU!
CSS: Big fat stupid!
Jay: You’re stupider!”
I think you will note that I give reasons why Jay is a liar.
In this thread, for instance, he failed to note that the bill passed federally was significantly different than the one Obama voted against.
In fact, at first I even gave him the benefit of the doubt assuming he just didn’t know they were different.
Another point worth mentioning… she spent $400,000 of state money to “educate” Alaskans about aerial hunting of wolves and bear, arguably in an attempt to influence a state ballot measure opposing such hunting.
A good link from an Alaskan on how Sarah Palin has been thwarting the will of Alaskan voters to support aerial hunting:
http://current.com/items/88811075_end_aerial_wolf_hunting
Yes, CSS, you gave reason. *heaves huge sigh, rolls eyes*
“Yes, CSS, you gave reason. *heaves huge sigh, rolls eyes*”
You don’t think that’s important? If so, then you’re part of the problem you are complaining about. Quit complaining, in fact, just shut up, you are adding to the problem.
The magazine cover was a Photoshop fake.
I’ll be very interested in seeing whether Palin’s hairstyle merits the scrutiny that Hillary’s cleavage did.
I MEAN, I’m an unshaved, unkemp, hippie looking guy, and even I know she needs a makeover.
Picture a TV series featuring a grouchy old guy, we’ll call him Uncle Dud, whose running gag is complaining about his old war wound, and his associate Mary Tyler Moore, whose hair is part of her running joke, who wrings her hands and dithers, and always manages to get herself into awkward ethical situations.
Will it be a hit?
wow. the lefty desperation to find some mud to stick on Palin is palpable here.
And they have begun to canibalize themselves, witness CS andBruce.
Yes, feel the hate…..
I haven’t read all 61 posts here, and this observation may have been made before, but I think Palin is not so much a candidate as a strategy. McPain would drive over his grandmother to win this (what else is new?), doesn’t care about what happens if he croaks in office, so his Rovian plan is sequential:
1. Predominantly male pundits heap scorn on Palin’s credentials;
2. Inevitably something will be said that sounds SEXIST;
3. Resentment grows among feminists (read: numbers of women voters) until there’s a
4. BACKLASH of sympathy for Palin and women vow to
5. VOTE for the ticket regardless of their reservations, and thus
6. McCain wins.
thanks for the INFO, Oliver.
That is an extreme Right Wing position for a beauty queen.
Other than looks, she’s got no substance. Pretty lame of McCain to accuse Democrats for “indentity politics” and picking someone for his looks and his speechifiying. Republicans are doing the same thing multiplied. There are plenty of more qualified Republican older women that could have fit the position…but they went for the looker.
Republicans love her and are publishing beauty queen photos of her all over the web. Kind of soft porn like.
all in all, a great move by the McCain folks to be honest IMO…but will the interest last after she opens her ill informed mouth?
*shudder* remember Dan Quayle? he lost the debate but still got elected.
I actually kind of feel sorry for McCain and Palin. They are going to lose in a landslide. I know that I shouldn’t feel sorry for them since their policies would further destroy this country, but somehow I do. (This isn’t sarcasm).
Um, still voting Obama/Biden though…
God is against all abortion even those that have been raped. Praise JESUS! McCAin/Palin 08
My Pastor told me that God told him that “all” abortion is sin. And if God says all abortion is sin that I go with what God says. Praise JESUS! McCain/Palin 08
All life is important “all” life. Even rape victims should understand that. Is Sarah Palin also a hunter? What is her preferred animal she likes to hunt?
I was born with half a brain. My life has been wonderful. Praise Jesus! Vote McCain/Palin 08
“It’s this sort of bullshit that has me really sour on supposed liberal blogs.”
No one ever has been called “scum” or worse on a conservative blog. Ever.
“Dehumanizing people to delegitimize their arguments has never been the right path.”
Oh God, the concern trolling is killing me!
then WTF is Hewitt talking about?
I’ve often wondered that very same thing.
And are you an Evangelical Christian for whom abortion was a litmus for VP choice? Abortion clearly is a litmus test issue for a lot of the people whose support McCain was trying to shore up with his choice of Palin.
Oh and Democrats don’t have litmus tests on abortion? Evan Bayh wasn’t acceptable to some circles of Democratic voters because he had the audacity to vote for the partial-birth abortion ban. Do you think the Obama team even vetted Bob Casey Jr.? Not a freaking prayer. There’s absolutely no way on earth the Democrats would ever have a pro-life candidate on their ticket, so please spare us your inane drivel about “litmus tests.”
So the hardcore right is already attacking Obama for his vote on this bill because it’s something that matters to them deeply but they won’t care if McCain never takes up the attack or actually does anything with the abortion issue during the campaign? Really?
Yeah. Really. I’m through explaining it to you. John McCain has already made his views on abortion well known. Palin’s views are known as well. What else do they need to talk about? If you knew anything other than your left wing identity politics, you’d understand the abortion has become the single issue that a very small sub-section of voters see as the only issue they will vote on. How much did President Bush campaign on abortion in 2000? 04? Wake the hell up man and join the 21st century. This isn’t 1992 anymore.
And even if this issue went mainstream, it won’t, again, do a thing to Obama’s support among Dems, moderates or independents.
You’re whistling past the graveyard if you think this is true. Really dude.
It especially won’t hurt Obama when all he has to do is point to Palin’s position and tell women: “If you get pregnant as the result of rape, McCain VP think you should be forced to carry the child to term.” Obama wins that hands down, so bring it.
If Obama goes that route, all McCain needs to do is point to Obama’s position and say, “Senator, you believe that aborted babies that for whatever reason are born alive should not have the protections of any other citizen and instead should be left to die in a hospital.”
Go for it. Please.
Bruce, CSS has never been introduced to Dale Carnegie’s writings.
Will it be a hit?
“Ohhh, Mr. Grant!”
I actually kind of feel sorry for McCain and Palin.
I’m beginning to think this is their strategy in toto.
Oh and Democrats don’t have litmus tests on abortion?
In other words: Democrats do it to so I don’t have to actually defend McCain cynical political manipulations, so there.
How much did President Bush campaign on abortion in 2000? 04?
Which is precisely why the Evangelicals were so hardcore for Huckabee this year and were so dissappointed with McCain. Their Chosen One in 00 and 04 let them down and didn’t govern from the right hand of Jesus like they wanted. So McCain mollifies them with Palin and they bite, proving they are the stupidest voting block in the country.
If Obama goes that route, all McCain needs to do is point to Obama’s position and say, “Senator, you believe that aborted babies that for whatever reason are born alive should not have the protections of any other citizen and instead should be left to die in a hospital.”
You know what that sounds like, Jay? The ravings of a frightening abortion extremist. The kinds who like to parade around on public streets with photos of fetuses in trash cans. Nobody likes those people, Jay. I invite McCain to take this route on the national stage. Down. In. Flames. Not a single Democrat or Independent will be swayed by it.
If the Sarah Palin choice says anything about John McCain, outside of his utter contempt for the American people, it is that he has become a WHOLLY OWNED SUBSIDIARY OF THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT.
This choice means that he has become ‘ their boy’ without hesitation.
If this were about choosing a Republican WOMAN, there were plenty other choices of GOP women.
But, this wasn’t about that.
This was about selling out to the Religious Right, because Palin is THEIR GIRL.
John McCain does not have the money of Barack Obama.
Barack Obama has been out organizing McCain in every state that will be fought over in this election. It was announced only a couple of weeks ago that the McCain Campaign was BEGINNING to form a ground game. But, ground games take money. Money McCain doesn’t have.
The ground game for the GOP, in the last 2 election cycles, has been done through The Religious Right. He had no way of getting them to come out and work for him.
UNLESS HE CHOSE ONE OF THEIR FOOT SOLDIERS.
In choosing Palin, he is once again, giving into the GOP base.
In choosing Palin, he is in bed, up to his neck, with the Dobsons, the Pat Robertsons, and all the rest of them.
Maverick my ass.
He’s even more of a pawn of the Religious Right than Dubya, and I didn’t think that was possible.
We need to pound on this.
Strip away that Maverick bullshit when all this pick has shown is how completely he has SOLD OUT.
Oh, and Jay, Obama has a perfectly reasonable explanation for his vote in the Illionois legislature:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/20/us/politics/20checkpoint.html?pagewanted=print
The above is from a NY Times article from August 20. Does that not count as mainstream in your book? So the issue has been raised and no one but abortion extremists give a shit.
Now if McCain wants to get into the details of the Illinois legislative process on a national stage, he’s more than welcome to. Obama can explain his position and his vote on those grounds.
It’s a lot harder to explain away Palin’s hardcore extremist position that victims of rape should be forced to bring a rapist’s child to term. If that’s truly her position, she loses the vast majority of Americans who think incest, rape and the health of the mother are all reasonable reasons for an abortion.
I’m boring?
Well at least Palin has principled positions that she lives in action, not lip service.
Barack Obama is the single most vague, etheral, pie-in-the-sky candidate I have ever heard speak. And when I say “speak”, I mean watching the bullshit flow from his mouth like a never ending trough of Democratic Ejaculate which you all slop up.
All I hear is:
“Hey, I’m going to tax the fuck out of the rich and Corporate America. Doesn’t matter that they are all losing vast amounts of money, and banks are closing. Tax the shit out of the companies that create new jobs. Those fuckers are keeping my cousin Pookie down in South side Chicago!”
And yes, please embolden Iran into attacking Israel so that Israel has the excuse to wipe the majority of the Middle East off the map. Nothing more entertaining than the cowardice of Intellectuals trying to reason with psychopaths. I’m sure that if Barack had a time machine, he could go back and reason with Hitler and convince him of the error of his ways. FACEPALM.
And when that failed, and millions of Jews, Gays, Gypsies, Catholics, and others were being slaughtered, Obama would cry to the world that it was “Above my paygrade!”
I’m sure PM Putin will gladly discuss the future of Poland, Ukraine, Moldova, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania with Pres. Obama long after his tanks have rolled across their borders. Pres. Obama will certainly go to the UN and watch as the world simply doesn’t care because they are cowards and worthless scum that wish only to up the $$$ in Foreign Aid from the US to be siphoned off by foreign politicians.
The guy is a propped up Douche, coronated by the media in love with the novelty of a “well-spoken black man, who is neat, clean” as Biden describes him. He has no substance, he *IS* the Dan Quayle Scenario.
Yes, John. You’re boring.
Then Hussein, Hussein Obama, and I have something in common.
Blahblahblah Change.
Blahblahblah Hope.
Blahblahblah I’m black.
BlahBlahBlah YES WE CAN (because I’m black).
To paraphrase the great Roger Ebert, that read like an explosion at the talking points factory.
Correct me if I’m wrong here, but this is not the same John who was all pro-choice earlier, is it?
Speaking of talking points, notice the silence from our host?
Why is that you think?
Could be that as a wholly owned subsidiary of The Obama, they aren’t quite sure how to handle the minefield of an articulate, republican woman eh?
Don’t want to get ahead of the game with a meme that might just come back and bite you in the ….well, you know where.
You better believe the fax machines of the Annointed One are humming trying to come up with a strategy for this.
Is that in comparison to the right wing reaction to Biden?
WTF is your point?
“Could be that as a wholly owned subsidiary of The Obama, they aren’t quite sure how to handle the minefield of an articulate, republican woman eh?”
How exactly does Palin present a “minefield” for anyone? Is she beyond criticism for some reason?
In other words: Democrats do it to so I don’t have to actually defend McCain cynical political manipulations, so there.
You’re accusing him of “cynical political manipulations.” Why should I have to ‘defend’ McCain against your idiotic accusation? Got a Paypal address? Let me have it. I’ll send you a dollar so you can buy a clue.
Which is precisely why the Evangelicals were so hardcore for Huckabee this year and were so dissappointed with McCain.
Yeah. Mike Huckabee got real far in the primaries. Cha-ching! Another buck to buy yourself another clue.
Their Chosen One in 00 and 04 let them down and didn’t govern from the right hand of Jesus like they wanted. So McCain mollifies them with Palin and they bite, proving they are the stupidest voting block in the country.
Righhhht. McCain had over NINETY PERCENT support from Republicans. Before he chose Palin. Higher than Democratic support for Obama. Yet he had to “mollify” people with Palin. Now you’re just being a douchebag. Congratulations.
You know what that sounds like, Jay? The ravings of a frightening abortion extremist. The kinds who like to parade around on public streets with photos of fetuses in trash cans. Nobody likes those people, Jay. I invite McCain to take this route on the national stage. Down. In. Flames. Not a single Democrat or Independent will be swayed by it.
Want to take bets? Because of Obama’s vote (and I don’t give a rats ass about the NY Times article you quoted. There’s a whole more to the story than that so do some more research) on that issue, I’ll bet you $100 that the Obama/Biden camp won’t go near Palin’s position on abortion. Aside from a few platitudes about they “support choice” that’s the most they’ll make of the issue.
Put you money where your mouth is. I’ll be happy to put the money in escrow somewhere. The only people who are going to doing wailing about Palin’s position on abortion are tools like you, the freaks at NARAL and Emily’s List and the people whose jobs are dependent upon federal funds continuing to flow into Planned Parenthood.
Speaking of talking points, notice the silence from our host”?
Oliver has had three posts (so far) criticizing Palin. Try to keep up.
Aside from a few platitudes about they “support choice” that’s the most they’ll make of the issue.
Why is that a platitude? That’s pretty much the start and finish of it. They support choice. What, was there something else?
They support choice. Palin doesn’t. Oooh, there’s a hot button.
Most of the MSM have been very quiet this morning after The One scolded his campaign manager for attacking Palin on her experience. If ever there was a LOL moment in the 2nd Coming of Christ’s campaign, this is the one.
Frankly, they don’t know what to do, so they are keeping silent. It was reported that the next few days will focus on McCain’s opposition to Equal Pay legislation and his Pro-Life stance until they can figure out how to attack someone who has the same (if not more) experience than Obama without alienating Hillary Voters or making himself look more of a jackass than he already is.
And to the 1-dimensional thinkers who plague mankind with your mouth-breathing, Palin is a 3-dimensional candidate. She has energized the Conservative base with her Evangelical leanings and social/fiscal conservatism. She is of Blue Collar roots which helps the Working Class White Males from falling into Obamabot Syndrome as they have a sound, familiar alternative. And Women Voters **who are also 3-dimensional voters and don’t live and die under the threat of Roe V. Wade** may take a long hard look. If Palin pulls 10% of the Female Vote that Obama already has, that is a huge, huge plus.
I love the OMG SHE IS PRO-LIFE! Yeah, so is McCain and a huge part of the Republican Party. And? The experience attack is a non-starter. So is abortion unless Barack wants his Committee Hearing statements played over and over and over. Even after his committee changed the language of the Bill to match the Federal version he claims he “would have voted for”.
(and I don’t give a rats ass about the NY Times article you quoted. There’s a whole more to the story than that so do some more research)
Translation: I don’t care if you actually have a source, it’s evil because I SAY SO! WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
Grow up.
You better believe the fax machines of the Annointed One are humming trying to come up with a strategy for this.
See, this what you get for supporting an ancient candidate. Obama supporters work with this thing called e-mail. Fax machines? That’s more of the same.
“The only people who are going to doing wailing about Palin’s position on abortion are tools like you, the freaks at NARAL and Emily’s List and the people whose jobs are dependent upon federal funds continuing to flow into Planned Parenthood.”
Jay, you’ve come around entirely to my position only you’ve got it backwards. Congratulations, sort of.
My point all along has been that McCain chose Palin in large part to satisfy Evangelical Christians for whom abortion is a major issue – and that those groups will be, once again, pissed off when McCain/Palin refuse to press their agenda in the campaign. Why won’t McCain press abortion in the campaign? Because Palin’s position is so extreme it will actually lose him votes.
I’ve given you Hugh Hewitt’s support for this point. Here’s James Dobson on McCain’s pick:
“Sen. McCain’s selection of Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin is an outstanding choice that should be extremely reassuring to the conservative base of his party. She is a strong executive who hates corruption and puts principle above politics. After floating the names of Tom Ridge and Sen. Joe Lieberman in recent weeks – selections that would have created consternation among pro-family Republicans – Sen. McCain has chosen a solid conservative who has a reputation for espousing common sense.
“Gov. Palin’s commitment to the sanctity of life is not just a political position. She was advised to abort her fifth and youngest child when it was learned he had Down syndrome. She refused. That’s bravery and integrity in action.
“Gov. Palin’s views align with Sen. McCain’s own stated position that human life is precious and must be protected – and that gives us confidence he will keep his pledges to voters regarding the kinds of justices he would nominate to the Supreme Court and the way he would conduct our nation’s domestic and international affairs. This selection by Sen. McCain is a very encouraging sign for his campaign.”
Dobson is going to expect results for his support and he will expect McCain to follow through in the campaign and as president if he wins. The pressure to discuss abortion will be coming entirely from McCain’s base. Pro-choice groups are not going to be pressing Obama to discuss abortion. They know his position and they support it. Obama is free to approach the issue as he sees fit without worrying about losing the support of his base. McCain doesn’t have that luxury. Dobson and the right have long been suspicious of McCain’s support for their agenda. Palin has molified them for now. How long is that going to last if McCain buries the abortion issue or ignores it, which is what McCain has to do if he’s going to win independents and moderates. Even if McCain does go after Obama on his vote against the Induced Infant Liability Act, Obama wins that one too because his reason is completely compatible with a defense of Roe V Wade against stealth legislation pushed by crazy Evangelicals. No one but the nuts are going to think Obama is a “baby killer.”
In summary, here’s the key difference, Jay: Obama can run on his pro-choice record and not lose key swing voters. McCain cannot run on his or Palin’s position on abortion without jeopardizing moderate and independent support. It’s really just that simple.
So you’re little tirade about pro-choice “freaks” is misplaced. Pro-choice organizations can make abortion an issue without hurting Obama. When pro-life groups and guys like Dobson put pressure on McCain to make abortion an issue, McCain will have no choice but to resist them as long as he can. Do you think McCain can keep them duped until November? I guess we’ll see.
Could be that as a wholly owned subsidiary of The Obama, they aren’t quite sure how to handle the minefield of an articulate, republican woman eh?
Goddammit, I thought Soros was our dark Ovewrlord, then it was the Great Orange Satan, Kos. Somebody make up my mind, I don’t know which pagan idol to worship to anymore.
Here’s James Dobson on McCain’s pick:
Interesting. Good for McCain for getting the endorsement of a cult leader.
Palin is a 3-dimensional candidate.
Sure is. She hates women, gays, AND the poor.
social/fiscal conservatism.
Fiscal conservatism? YOu mean like leaving a town of 8,000 with $20 million of debt?
familiar alternative.
Familiar? Most people have never even heard of her until today.
John, I’d tell you to quit your day job, but chances are you don’t have one.
Do you think McCain can keep them duped until November?
Why not? Bush did it for almost 2 full terms.
Any of the above Hussein. Worship any of them and it will get you a ticket to the Obama defeat party, and a complimentary “We was Robbed by…(fill in the blank)” bumper sticker after the election
Oh, stop it, you and John are killin’ me today!
Fiscal conservatism? YOu mean like leaving a town of 8,000 with $20 million of debt?
Apparently, in republican Land, that <u<is fiscal conservativism.
Here’s a link of her botching a land deal and paying 16x the normal price. Hooray for eminent domain!
I’ll take her 80% approval rating as Governor over Pelosi’s “Do Nothing” Congress and their 9% approval rating any day.
Wow nothing but bad ad hominem attacks.
Wait…pointing out the fact that she practically bankrupted the city she was mayor of is an “ad hominem attack”?
I’ll take her 80% approval rating as Governor over Pelosi’s “Do Nothing” Congress and their 9% approval rating any day.
Good thing Pelosi’s not Obama’s VP, now isn’t it?
John, why do you hate America so much?
Mr Strowbridge, I apologize. I should have realized how infuriating it must be to argue at length with Jay.
John, I apologize for calling you a “boring….voice of reason.” You are neither. Apparently, when angered, you are not only not boring, but you most definitely are NOT a vice of reason.
Or a “voice” of reason, either.
farfaroo, I don’t spend times on conservative blogs. I am not a conservative.
I spend time on liberal blogs, I am a liberal.
But go ahead, anyone that disagrees with you is scum, or a troll, or a concern troll. See how far that gets you. Basically on the net, it really means you’ve run out of argument, and can only name call, and call on group pressure to silence someone. It means you’re an Internet Tough Guy as most likely a real life pussy.
Better idea: argue your arguments on the merits. It’s the lesson of Monty Python after all.
Or consider Dumbledore’s awarding of 10 points to Neville Longbottom. In your book that would be, -10 points to Neville Longbottom, concern troll.
In the meantime, consider why it is that people you know don’t want to call themselves liberals or democrats. And then blame them for it.
Jerry, welcome to Oliver’s world. Reasoned argument elicits ad hominem attack. It is a way of life here.
“I spend time on liberal blogs, I am a liberal.”
And this has lead you to the conclusion that the liberal blogosphere is dominated by name calling and “dehumanizing” tactics? You think one comment in a thread of one hundred should be pulled out, isolated and held up as evidence of “all that is wrong liberals and liberalism”?
You make sweeping generalizations about a very larger community then want to scold me about making arguments on their merits? A rant that reaches its full crescendo in two dazzlingly obtuse references to Monty Python and Harry Potter? Please.
You know if you can make an argument against Palin based on the issues, go ahead and make it. Why, instead, assume the utterly pointless, self-righteous role of “comment police?”
Concern troll, heal thyself.
“Mr Strowbridge, I apologize. I should have realized how infuriating it must be to argue at length with Jay.”
Thanks.
I really shouldn’t even bother trying to debate with him, but it’s either this or working. And working is just not an option.
Wait…pointing out the fact that she practically bankrupted the city she was mayor of is an “ad hominem attack”?
Interesting how the number $20M keeps getting thrown around, with no mention of a) what the city did with the money, and b) how the debt service compares to the rest of the budget. Without this information, a simple dollar amount is absolutely meaningless.
“Gov. Palin’s commitment to the sanctity of life…”
Doesn’t Palin support the death penalty?
The sanctity of life is only for the unborn. After birth, you’re on your own, motherfucker. Everybody knows that.
“The sanctity of life is only for the unborn. After birth, you’re on your own, motherfucker. Everybody knows that”.
Does Palin support jailing women who have had abortions? If she only favors punishing the people who perform the abortions, but not the women who undergo the procedure itself, doesn’t that make her half-pro-choice (or half-committed to “the sanctity of life”)?
That’s what I’m sayin’.
Just read she is again condoms and the birth control pill for married couples. If this is true, and I’m not convinced it is, but if it is true, she is to the right of 70% to 90% of the population of the United States. And that remaining 30% to 10% probably don’t think women should be in politics.
A handy list being compiled at Firedoglake on Palin’s background.
death penalty? Doesn’t Sarah like Ariel Hunting?
Why not give convicted felons a sporting chance? Give ‘em a thousand yard running start and head after ‘em with the guns and airplanes. Nothing is better than man-hunting. Go get ‘em, Sarah and Todd.
Now, John and Jay might think I’ve joined their party…oh, well I grew up with John Birchers and know how they think.
Really, seems like McCain’s got himself a new girlfriend. Kind of like when he dumped Carol, his first wife.
Eeewww. Thanks for the mental picture.
you know what i think is most interesting in all of these threads. is that nobody is stating personal experience as if the law existed. not one doctor commented here, and not one person of experience of rape commented. everyone is an outsider commented on the issues, but none are problems of the issue.
my question to palin:
my 14 year old daughter was walking home from school, she got lifted into a van. she was beaten, molested, and forcefully raped. as a father you give me no options, i have to watch my daughter bear term and give birth. the rapist was aids infected, a psychotic, the genes would pass down. my daughter has to bear the experience, give it up for adoption and know through the rest of her life that she was forcefully entered by no control of her own, and yet you vice president deem that to be acceptable by law? simply due to your god driven beliefs of everything happens for a reason?
to her point of view and others point of view should not mandate a law due to ones beliefs. the decisions of one’s body lie within that person. and since life begins in the womb of a woman, involuntary or not, it’s not governments choice to say so.
Let’s try this one on for size. Have all of the anti-abortion members of the Congress stand up. Then parade one baby for each congressman standing enter holding a newborn baby given up by a single young girl (preferably Black). Ask each Congressman to remain standing if they are willing to take one of the babies home, nuture the child, feed it, educate it etc. Bet you wouldn’t have many takers. Let them run their mouths, even interject religion, and go home to their mansions with empty arms! Such hypocracy!
I admit, I only support abortion only in cases of rape, incest, or the mother’s life being endangered:
but when jr said
“These rapture bunnies all believe in predestination. Palin thinks rape victims were destined to get raped and having an abortion is going against God’s will”
If God feels that way, then 1. He’s an asshole for making a women suffer like that. IF God feels that a woman should be a mother, why not do the whole Virgin Mary thing? OH that’s right MARY WAS RAPE TOO.
I have to say, although I am for women’s right to choose, I think that Sarah Palin is at least not a hypocrite in this case.(and I am a Democrat) If someone thinks that abortion is murder(which I personally think that it is not in the first trimester,although I can’t say that 100%), then they should be against it, even in the case of rape! People who think it is okay for rape victims but not for anyone else are being CRUEL to people who are the products of rape or incest. It’s NOT THEIR FAULT. You wouldn’t say that a woman with a 6 month old could legally murder her child because she is upset that her child was a product of rape, would you? So, if you think abortion should be legal only in case of rape or endangerment to the mother, then you think it is not murder, or you are advocating murder of children with a bad parent, and you are essentially saying that women who accidentally get pregnant should have no choice and have the child- because their child is” okay” and the child who is a product of rape doesn’t matter.Isnt’ that a bit Nazi-ish?
In that case, also,allowing abortion for victims only but not for other people with unwanted pregnancies is then a punishment of the women who got pregnant by not using birth control or who had sex and the birth control failed.
Another point- I know women who have had abortions- and they live with the scar and doubt forever. It is not an easy decision, and many people regret it.
It would not likely help the victim of incest or rape to have another possibly traumatic event. Sure, there must be some women who are not affected from abortion, but I would bet very few.
That should be preached- not the punishing rhetoric that many “pro- lifers” like to give.
Stop the judgement, start the support, give education, pass out condoms in schools, teach boys to be respectful of girls and don’t just put the yes or no decisions on the girls.
People should stop the whole Madonna/Whore complex.Women are neither!
Provide help for mothers without partners. Take away the shame. Provide affordable daycare. Creat an atmosphere of understanding so that children can go to their parents or teachers when they have questions about sex.
Teach women self-value- and men patience!
The taboo of sex in the US enflames the mistakes made by many young, because they go in the heat of the moment without birth control!