The nutjobs are out in droves.
CBS4 has now learned at least four people are under arrest in connection with a possible plot to kill Barack Obama at his Thursday night acceptance speech in Denver. All are being held on either drug or weapons charges.
CBS4 Investigator Brian Maass reported one of the suspects told authorities they were “going to shoot Obama from a high vantage point using a … rifle … sighted at 750 yards.”
Law enforcement sources tell Maass that one of the suspects “was directly asked if they had come to Denver to kill Obama. He responded in the affirmative.”
The story began emerging Sunday morning when Aurora police arrested 28-year-old Tharin Gartrell. He was driving a rented pickup truck in an erratic manner according to sources.
Related
We’re Going To Denver!
Denver Post Endorses Obama
Right Wing Militia Watch: Rep. Mark Kirk Pushes Assasination
Let me guess, there is some way that this will be good for John McCain?
Did they say if those guys preferred to listen to Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, or Michael Savage? Or did they like them all equally, each in their own special way?
Did they say if those guys preferred to listen to Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, or Michael Savage? Or did they like them all equally, each in their own special way?
That’s actually a very important question that I hope is asked, and the answer released to the public.
Remember: there is no hate like liberal hate. And I believe that to be true. We are grossly intolerant in many ways. But it’s also true that there is no hate like conservative hate, and I get the impression that’s where our assassins of the past 40 years have been bred. From ‘63 and ‘68 up to now and including Rabin.
Wow. Well, props to the Secret Service, Denver PD and whoever else coordinated to get these sickos. 750 yards, I’m no rifle expert but don’t you have to be a pretty fair shot to get a kill at that range? I guess with a good weapon it probably makes it pretty easy but I’m wondering if he/they were trained professionally or just really thought they were going to get lucky. Very anxious to hear about the perp(s). Thank God.
Right-wing, white supremacists terrorists. These people are terrorists and they must be labeled as such in the media.
one of the suspects told authorities they were “going to shoot Obama from a high vantage point using a … rifle … sighted at 750 yards.”
This must be the one they got on drug charges, ’cause anyone who thinks there is such a vantage point has to be high on something.
Stay classy, Republicans.
I’ve always studiously dismissed the idea that violent disaffected extremists could be regularly associated with an American political ideology. Recent events have compelled me to reconsider that dismissal. No offense, of course, to the sane conservatives.
This one doesn’t pass the smell test to me as a credible threat.
Cops bust some white-supremacists meth-heads. One of ‘em says “hey, that one was gonna assassinate Obama!” and tosses out some highly improbable details (”high vantage point,” “rifle scoped to 750 yards,” and so on).
Sounds to me like the dirtbag was trying to ingratiate himself with the cops and whipped up some bullshit. There’s NO way a meth user could hit a target at 750 FEET, let alone almost half a mile.
On the other hand, this does show that the authorities are taking these things seriously, and that relieves me no end. And that these dirtbags will be out of circulation for some time is A Good Thing.
But I really doubt there was anything even resembling a serious plot to kill Obama in this one.
And I’m speaking as someone who hit the panic button over the dead Somali Muslim out of Canada who was found in an expensive Denver hotel room last week with over a pound of cyanide. THAT incident scared me a hell of a lot more than these assholes.
J.
Because telling cops you’re going to murder somebody is the best way to “ingratiate” yourself to them?
You and logic don’t get along very well, do you?
No, Jaim, but “ratting out your buddies” is a time-honored ploy by criminals. “Yeah, you got me with the meth, but Jerry over there — he was um… uh… gonna kill Obama! Yeah, that’s it! Cut me a break, and I’ll tell you everything!”
Like I said — the dead Somali Muslim from Canada found in an expensive hotel room in Denver last week with a POUND of cyanide has me far, far more concerned that these crank-headed assholes. A meth-user with a rifle can’t cause anywhere near the harm that some jihadists with that much cyanide can cause.
I guess, Jaim, that your ideological blinders won’t let you see the REAL threat when you can find some way to blame those eeeevil right-wingers for something…
J.
“There’s NO way a meth user could hit a target at 750 FEET, let alone almost half a mile.”
You have evidence to back that up? Do you know the shooter was a meth user? Or are you just a fucking liar? Unless you were involved in the plot to assassinate Obama, you can’t possibly know this information.
On a side note, never talk to the cops. You are far too stupid to talk to the cops without getting yourself in a lot of trouble.
People of my ilk aren’t real terrorist threats, by the way look at this Muslim guy!!!1!!oogetyboogety!!111!one!!2!!
How refreshing to see Strowbridge remains his consistently idiotic self: why worry about REAL threats when one can push their personal partisan agenda?
Saleman Abdirahman Dirie was a Somali Muslim living in Toronto. In the week leading up to the Democratic National Convention, he went to Denver and spent at least a week in a $200-a-night hotel. He was found dead in that hotel room, with a POUND — a FREAKING POUND — of cyanide.
And you’re more worried about some neo-Nazi assholes busted with a bunch of crystal meth? This is the kind of thing the Secret Service is prepared to handle.
A guy with enough poison to wipe out a couple of hundred — or more — innocent, random people, in the heart of the convention? That’s something a lot harder to prevent.
The hallmark of the original Nazis was efficiency. The hallmark of the neo-Nazis is incompetence.
And the record of Muslim extremists in mass murder and terrorism is very impressive.
J.
“How refreshing to see…”
What I see is that you completely ignored my point that you lied.
You are a liar, and changing the subject doesn’t change that fact.
Fucking liar. No wonder you are a Republican.
I’ll admit that you’re a bigger fucking moron than I thought — and I didn’t think that was possible.
I “lied?” Because I didn’t precede my opinion with “I think,” but instead did what 99.99% of people do most of the time, and just said what I thought, and said why I think it?
By your unsurprisingly sloppy standards, YOU’RE a liar. I’m a registered independent, and have never spent more than five minutes as a Republican. So unless you have been accessing voter records in New Hampshire and have me on a list as a registered Republican, YOU’RE lying about me.
But back to the actual substance of the issue — NOBODY in their right mind wants anyone hurt or killed at the Democratic National Convention. But I’m more worried about whether or not the late Mr. Dirie had any co-conspirators who have yet to be discovered than a few neo-Nazi assholes with delusions of adequacy and whose ineptitude is so readily demonstrated by how easily they were caught.
And anyone with half a brain ought to be as well.
Which, I guess, explains Strowbridge’s frothing lunacy.
J.
Are these neo-Nazis any less dangerous than the “Muslim extremists” in Miami that the FBI agent provocateur busted? Or the London “hijackers” who got all our water bottles taken away, even though they had no passports and no airline tickets?
Rightwing nutjobs should be taken just as seriously as scarybrown ones. The name McVeigh comes to mind.
By your unsurprisingly sloppy standards, YOU’RE a liar. I’m a registered independent, and have never spent more than five minutes as a Republican.
Wow, I’m an independent too. Isn’t that funny?
So the guys who wanted to kill Obama were incompetent, armed and probably on drugs? Whats not to beleive?
I’m a registered independent, and have never spent more than five minutes as a Republican.
I’m sure all the other Right Wing Pseudo-Independents, who march in lockstep with the daily Karl Rove orders, are extremely proud of you for your “independence.” [Virtually] speaking for the Reality-Based Community, we are duly impressed.
These people are terrorists and they must be labeled as such in the media.
Totally agree.
However, it occurs to me that any such vantage point will probably already have a secret service sharpshooter in it.
You and logic don’t get along very well, do you?
This from a person who just wrote, “Stay classy, Republicans” in response to this incident. Classic.
You have evidence to back that up? Do you know the shooter was a meth user? Or are you just a fucking liar? Unless you were involved in the plot to assassinate Obama, you can’t possibly know this information.
Yes, I am sure that the guy who was pulled over for driving erratically, was just holding the meth in his truck for a friend. Do you ever think about things you write or are you just content calling people “liars” because…well…just because.
As for this ‘plot’, I’m glad these idiots were caught. But people should know that shooting somebody from 750 yards away takes a lot of skill and training. Even if the guy wasn’t a meth-head, there’s nothing I’ve read so far to suggest that these idiots had any training beyond potty training and even that’s probably a stretch.
Also, where exactly would one put themselves to shoot Obama from 750 yards away – in a football stadium? Unless Obama is going to be giving his speech up near the lights, there’s no vantage point around Mile High Stadium to make a shot like this.
This from a person who just wrote, “Stay classy, Republicans” in response to this incident. Classic.
I don’t follow you.
“…whose ineptitude is so readily demonstrated by how easily they were caught.”
Jay Tea, Saleman Abdirahman Dirie was found in a hotel having died of cyanide poisoning. If you want to talk ineptitude, that would be like one of these other doofuses shooting themselves with their own sniper rifle. If it’s difficult to shoot someone from 750 yards away, clearly it’s just as difficult to try to kill a larger amount of people with cyanide, if only because cyanide is difficult to store and transport without killing yourself.
Both incidents are of concern, but let’s not pretend that Dirie was some terrorist mastermind. His family reported that he dropped out of college and had mental health problems. Big events like the Dem Conventon attract all kinds of lone nut jobs. Yes, authorities need to continue their investigation to ensure that he wasn’t part of a larger plot but it’s just as likely he was as crazy, stupid and incompetent as the meth heads.
As it turns out, it wasn’t even a credible threat.
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080826/D92PU35O0.html
Some of you are too quick to jump to conclusions.
“Some of you are too quick to jump to conclusions.”
Thanks, J mccan, I’m sure Jay Tea will take this to heart as someone who “hit the panic button over the dead Somali Muslim out of Canada …”
I’m curious, though, Jay Tea. Who does your “panic button” alert when you hit? Commissioner Gordon? Or do you have a direct line to the Justice League?
It seems to me that any 750-yard high vantage point probably already has a Secret Service sharpshooter in it.
Good one, fafaroo.
Why would a Somali Muslim terrorist try and kill hundreds of Democrats? Doesn’t he know we’re in Denver to nominate a secret Muslim extremist for the Presidency, and then after the election he’d have been free to swarm into our cities and cut off the heads of everybody who faield to convert?
Stoopid terrorist.
Duros, I think the potential assassins were referring to using a high vantage point at a distance of up to 750 yards to kill Senator Obama, not a 750 yard tall vantage point.
Yeah, I got that. My phrasing generator s in the shop. =)
My point stands. Any vantage point they could feasibly get to is probably already occupied.
Anybody see a comma? Think I dropped one.
“I ‘lied?’ Because I didn’t precede my opinion with ‘I think,’”
Yes, you made a statement of fact when you had no knowledge to make that claim. Your intent was to clearly cut a debate short by claiming expertise you don’t have.
You lied.
“I’m a registered independent…”
And you act like a Republican, and you support the Republicans in this election. Therefore, you are a Republican. After all, actions speak louder than words.
Me: “You have evidence to back that up? Do you know the shooter was a meth user? Or are you just a fucking liar? Unless you were involved in the plot to assassinate Obama, you can’t possibly know this information.”
Jay: “Yes, I am sure that the guy who was pulled over for driving erratically…”
And Jay steps in to prove he is fucking retarded.
You have no prove the guy on Meth was the guy who was going to do the shooting, unless you are part of the conspiracy. This is not up for debate. This is reality.
As I previously told Jay Tea, never talk to the cops.
j mccann: “As it turns out, it wasn’t even a credible threat.
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080826/D92PU35O0.html
Some of you are too quick to jump to conclusions.”
Did you read the story, or just the headline?
If you read the story, you would know the investigation is ongoing, so no conclusions like that can be made. The person quoted was obviously trying to calm residents of his city. Smart move, but unlikely to be authoritative on the matter. (In other words, he lied. Everyone lies. You need to watch House, M.D. until you figure that out. Also, it’s a great show.)
You have no prove the guy on Meth was the guy who was going to do the shooting, unless you are part of the conspiracy. This is not up for debate.
And as I continued on dumb-as-a-stump, the likelihood that this clown could have done what he wanted to do (or one of his loser friends) was next to nil as:
A. It takes somebody with extensive training and skill to shoot something at 750 yards.
B. Unless Barack Obama was standing in the rafters of Mile High Stadium, there’s simply no vantage point in the surrounding area where they could have pulled this off. And yes, I’ve been to Denver and know exactly where the stadium is. The nearest buildings that could provide such a vantage point are MILES away.
You’re all alone on this one CS. Calling people liars and stamping your feet like a child doesn’t make you right.
Do you know the shooter was a meth user?
Of course he knows, who do you think was the rat?
Rightwing nutjobs should be taken just as seriously as scarybrown ones. The name McVeigh comes to mind.
Who says they’re mutually exclusive?
“You’re all alone on this one CS.”
Yet the police continue to investigate. I guess that’s another lie by Jay Tea.
By the way, the stadium isn’t the only chance to snipe Obama. So unless you are part of the conspiracy and were in on intimate details of the plan, you are still lying. Also, there are plenty of people with extensive training with a sniper rifle in the states. Hell, White Supremacist militias would make it a point to train people in the use of such weapons.
So again, you are making claims based on facts you can not have. This is what is called a lie.
Bruce Nenry: “Rightwing nutjobs should be taken just as seriously as scarybrown ones. The name McVeigh comes to mind.”
Zython: “Who says they’re mutually exclusive?”
Islamic Fundementalists are clearly rightwingers and share the same party platform as the Republicans on Gay Rights, Abortion Rights, Pray in School, etc.
Yet the police continue to investigate.
Yes CS, because that’s what happens when people are arrested. There is an investigation. All of the facts are gathered. All of the evidence is gathered. The cops and the prosecutors work together to make a case that will stand up in court. Until the trial starts, there is an investigation.
By the way, the stadium isn’t the only chance to snipe Obama. So unless you are part of the conspiracy and were in on intimate details of the plan, you are still lying.
Right, so when they admit that they wanted to shoot Obama on the night of his acceptance speech from a high vantage point, I guess they were talking about some other place where Obama was going to give his acceptance speech. Do you ever actually think about these things before you write them? Or does the stupid just flow naturally?
So again, you are making claims based on facts you can not have. This is what is called a lie.
Once again, you demonstrate your complete ignorance on what it means to lie.
But, by using your logic dumbfuck logic, you’re a liar. Why? Because you said this:
Hell, White Supremacist militias would make it a point to train people in the use of such weapons.
That’s a claim for which you have no facts to support.
Liar.
Wow has anyone done any research? The person saying no big deal is a Rove appointee. The police thought it was credible enough to call the SS. A reporter interviewed one guy and he admitted to wanting to shoot Obama. A threat is a threat. Just because a Repuke says not credible doesn’t make it so.
You will find better reporting at the timesonline site from the UK. American press is covering this up.
It is no excuse to say they could not have carried this out. Another guy threatened Obama on 8/7, he is in jail with no bail!
The FBI and SS are investigating but the Rove appointee is saying no big deal, get it yet????
Me: “Yet the police continue to investigate.”
Jay Tea: “Yes CS, because that’s what happens when people are arrested.”
Not if there’s nothing left to investigate. If they were being arrested on simple drug charges, they would not be anything left to investigate. However, if there was a serious conspiracy to assassinate Obama, something you denied was true, they would continue to investigate it. This is what is happening.
“Right, so when they admit that they wanted to shoot Obama on the night of his acceptance speech from a high vantage point, I guess they were talking about some other place where Obama was going to give his acceptance speech.”
He’s going to teleport there? Granted, I’m no expert on assassinations like this, but I always thought people were the least safe in transport.
You are assuming their plan was fatally flawed from the start, and then are using that assumption to prove they were not a threat.
This is clearly illogical.
“Once again, you demonstrate your complete ignorance on what it means to lie.”
Actually, if you look up the word in practically any dictionary, you will find my definition in there. It is the intent to deceive. You are presenting assumptions as fact. This is a lie.
“That’s a claim for which you have no facts to support.”
Actually, I do. I didn’t make a specific enough claim for you to use that tactic.
I’m not making any specific claim about the person using the weapon. You, on the other hand, stated as fact that the person didn’t have the adequate training necessary to use the weapon as they had planned.
Do you really think this is a safe assumption?
“Islamic fundamentalists are clearly rightwingers and share the same platform as Republicans…”
Good point.
Hey, Strowbridge just said ANOTHER lie!
Me: “Yet the police continue to investigate.”
Jay Tea: “Yes CS, because that’s what happens when people are arrested.”
I said no such thing. That wasn’t me. That was “Jay” from http://www.therighttobeararms.info, not Jay Tea of Wizbang.
When, oh when, will Strowbridge stop his evil, hateful, venomous, vile, lying lies?
J.
More Strowbridge BS:
<i.Islamic Fundementalists are clearly rightwingers and share the same party platform as the Republicans on Gay Rights, Abortion Rights, Pray (sic) in School, etc.
The mainstream right says “no marriage for gays.” (I disagree.) Islamic Fundamentalists say “death to gays — preferably by stoning or toppling a wall on them.”
Mainstream right says “make abortion illegal.” (Another place I disagree.) Islamic Fundamentalists say “women have no rights whatsoever — they marry who their family tells them to and have as many children as their husband wants.”
Mainstream right says “allow prayer in school.” (I don’t fully disagree. I have no problems with students voluntarily engaging in prayer, but nothing coercive or led by adults.) Islamic Fundamentalists say “use the schools to teach the glories of Allah and get the children to follow Mohammed early — and behead those who reject it.”
Gee, I hope Strowbridge isn’t a smoker. With all those straw men, one stray spark and he could start quite a dangerous fire.
And note how many Islamic Fundamentalists go around shouting “Death To Bush!” They know who will actually fight them, and not try to appease them and pooh-pooh their threats.
J.
If they were being arrested on simple drug charges, they would not be anything left to investigate.
First off, I’m not Jay Tea. Secondly, they weren’t arrested on simple drug charges. They were also arrested on weapons charges.
However, if there was a serious conspiracy to assassinate Obama, something you denied was true,
A ’serious’ conspiracy? As opposed to a non-serious conspiracy? There may have been a serious conspiracy. But there’s a huge gulf between a serious conspiracy and a credible threat.
You, on the other hand, stated as fact that the person didn’t have the adequate training necessary to use the weapon as they had planned.
Nonsense. This is what I wrote:
Even if the guy wasn’t a meth-head, there’s nothing I’ve read so far to suggest that these idiots had any training beyond potty training and even that’s probably a stretch.
So you’re lying about me supposedly lying. Liar.
Oh and considering the men arrested were all on probation stemming from previous drug charges and other charges, it’s a safe bet to say that they were meth-heads and that they weren’t carrying their stashes around for friends.
First off, I’m not Jay Tea.
Perhaps one of you should change your handle. Might clear up all this confusion. Just sayin’.
What confusion, Duros? I can tell us apart just fine. (Impersonating Cary Elwes) “Unlike some other bloggers I could mention, I have a last name.”
J.
I dunno, I was thinking I’m Not David Caruso or something like that.
I really thought that Jay, Jay Tea, JWG, and jmccann WERE all the same guy! They all spout the same nonsense and venom. They all disengage when they run out of talking points. They’re all prone to insults and accusing people of lying. And they all have a “J” in their screen names!
Coincidence? I think not.
If you paid attention, Bruce, you’d note that “Juat Jay” and I link to our own blogs — and they ain’t the same.
As far as the similarities… it’s the letter. “J” has been associated with greatness from the very beginning. Jesus, Julius Caesar, JFK, John Adams, John Quincy Adams, J. Jonah Jameson, Orange Julius, Jerry Garcia, J. J. Abrams, Julie Brown (the original, not the MTV VJ)… I could go on and on, but modesty forbids.
J.
Better?
OK, but you can’t blame me for being suspicious.
In these parts, Bruce, suspicion is a survival trait.
You just need a “J” in your name somewhere to help set you right.
How attached are you to your middle name?
J.
Helpful hint: Jay Tea always has a J. at the end.
I really thought that Jay, Jay Tea, JWG, and jmccann WERE all the same guy! They all spout the same nonsense and venom.
No, they don’t. While I usually disagree with Jay Tea he has made some fair points and, more importantly in this environment, has actually acknowledged that others have made good points and occasionally even corrected himself when he realizes he was wrong. As far as I’ve seen non of the other “j” folks you mention have demonstrated anything close to that.
I stand corrected. Forgive me, Jay Tea. If you are who you say you are.
Jay (Caruso) has.
Bruce, I may be a royal pain the arse, but believe me, I don’t have the energy to be that many people at the same time.
Signed
Not Jay Tea
“Hey, Strowbridge just said ANOTHER lie!”
And again you utterly fail at language. There is a difference between a lie and a mistake.
Getting to names that are so close mixed up was a mistake on my part. Claiming you have expertise that you don’t have is a lie. You can’t mistakenly claim you have more expertise than you have. Not unless you mistakenly thought you were part of the conspiracy to kill Obama.
Jay Tea: “The mainstream right says ‘no marriage for gays.”
As do the Islamic fundamentalists, they are just more extreme.
Meanwhile, the Left says gays should marry.
Islamics are rightwingers.
Jay Tea: “Mainstream right says ‘make abortion illegal.’”
As do the Islamic fundamentalists, they are just more extreme.
Meanwhile, the Left says women should have control over their bodies.
“Mainstream right says ‘allow prayer in school.’”
Ummm… prayer is allowed in school. Schools are not allowed to organize the prayers because it is considered a violation of the separation of church and state.
And the Islamic fundamentalists believe there should be no separate between church and state, they are just more extreme.
Meanwhile, the Left says separation of church and state protects both the church and the state.
So… in all three cases Islamic fundamentalists are on the right. Granted, they are more extreme than the ‘mainstream’ however, you are defining it, but they are on the right.
“And note how many Islamic Fundamentalists go around shouting ‘Death To Bush!’ They know who will actually fight them, and not try to appease them and pooh-pooh their threats.”
No, you fucking idiot, they know who is best for their cause, Bush. They also know morons like you will think Bush must be winning if they keep attacking him. They are attack Bush because attacking Bush is good for their cause.
“Nonsense. This is what I wrote…”
I know, I got you and Jay Tea mixed up. Sorry about that.
On a side note, you were here first, you should force Jay Tea to change his name.
Jay No Last Name shouldn’t try to force me to change my name. He’s never mixed us up.
And Strowbridge, when you selectively edit a quote for rhetorical purposes, you probably shouldn’t do so on the very same page where the original, unedited quote appear. It reveals you as a hack.
I’m tempted to outline just where radical Islam and the left’s positions overlap, just to rebut you, but that would be playing into your game — and I won’t do that.
Radical Islam is utterly incompatible with either the American political left or right. It doesn’t fall on the scale anywhere; it’s off on its own, much like Nazism, taking the worst of both sides. To describe it as merely an extension of American (or even Western) political divisions is to utterly misunderstand it. It’s the political equivalent of the blind men describing the elephant.
I realize this is probably the last place to bring up this point, but there are things far, far more important than our political differences. Islamists don’t check voter registration records when they go seeking to kill Americans.
When I heard about the “neo-Nazi assassination team” arrests, my intuition said it was bullshit. I was glad they were busted, but I was never worried. Back in the primaries, when that nutcase took hostages in Hillary Clinton’s Rochester, New Hampshire campaign office, I was again convinced that it was, indeed, bullshit. In the “sniper” case, it seems that I was right. And I definitely was right on the second, when the “bomb” turned out to be road flares.
But when the Somali Muslim from Canada turned up dead with a pound of cyanide in a Denver hotel less than a week before the convention, that’s when I was genuinely concerned. It had enough of the hallmarks of a “work accident” for a genuine terrorist attack that I was very, very worried — and I won’t stop worrying about that until after the convention adjourns and all the delegates and whatnot are safely on their ways home. My reaction was not “who cares? It’s only Democrats” or “why would they be attacking their natural allies?” or even “maybe this will wake up the Democrats to the real threats out there,” but “NOBODY fucks around and kills Americans, especially when they are trying to influence how we run our elections and choose our government.”
If that story turns out to have been nothing after all, then I will be greatly relieved to have been wrong. But I’m keeping an eye on this story for now.
J.
“Jay No Last Name shouldn’t try to force me to change my name. He’s never mixed us up.”
Two points…
1.) It was a joke.
2.) Of course he’s never mixed you two up.
“I’m tempted to outline just where radical Islam and the left’s positions overlap, just to rebut you, but…”
You would actually have to have the facts on your side, which you don’t.
“If that story turns out to have been nothing after all, then I will be greatly relieved to have been wrong.”
All that, and you don’t seem to care when it is white guys trying to do the killing. That’s… interesting.
I’m more concerned about a man with a gun, because guns or easy to use and easy to kill someone. Cyanide, and other chemical agents, are hard to use, hard to transport, etc. (as the dead guy shows).
There’s a reason why real terrorists use simple bombs more than less conventional weapons. The Molotov cocktail has killed more in terrorist attacks than all WMDs have.
Hell, the AK-47 has killed more than all of the nuclear weapons ever.
Simplier is better.
I guess since this thread is on page 3, the debate is over.