’)It’s called not accepting the campaign ads and material as gospel truth.
“He has been a voice on the Senate Armed Services Committee. And he has traveled all over the world. But he hasn’t held executive responsibility. That large squadron in the Navy that he commanded — that wasn’t a wartime squadron,” Clark said.
“I don’t think getting in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to become president.”
Clark should win Teh Veepstakes.
Yes, please. Play this as an ad far and wide!
Oh don’t worry JWG, I have a feeling this will be the only clip running on all the talking head pundit shows for the next week or so, followed by a heaping helping of pearl-clutching and spluttering faux outrage that anyone could dare to suggest that being shot down on his first flight mission makes St. McMaverick anything less that Patton reincarnated.
Thank goodness Obama has all the same national security and military credentials to take this issue entirely off the table. And the added benefit of one-tenth of McCain’s legislative experience.
Of course, the gap closes a little bit every single day, and how can you not love that?
What a relief and a blessing it must be to have Wes Clark protecting Obama’s flank.
My vote is still uncommitted but for Clark, an Obama supporter, to attack McCain’s military service is absolutely ludicrous.
While being a fighter pilot may not qualify McCain to be President–it gives him more military pedigree than Obama. What does Obama know about being the Commander in Chief, which is especially pertintent in the middle of a war. How do you down play McCain’s experience in the Senate, particularly on the Armed Services Committee?
Both Clark and McPeek are pariahs in the military community and there is a reason for that. It is no coincidence that they have both aligned with Obama. If you recall, when Clark ran for President, no former military endoresed him. That speaks volumes.
In an election where the people surrounding the candidate may be a major factor in the outcome, Clark and McPeek will do nothing to help Obama win the military vote.
Thank goodness Obama has all the same national security and military credentials to take this issue entirely off the table.
That’s a pretty low threshold. It pretty much describes anyone who isn’t a Republican.
Basically, Clark is acting like Obama’s Ferraro – saying the stuff that the candidate wants to, but can’t. So McCain got into Annapolis as a legacy admission, and crashed 5 jets. Compare McCain to Powell and Schwarzkopf – not in the same league.
Sorry, Matt, couldn’t hear you. All I heard was “wah wah wah wah.”
Does Clark outrank McCain or is it a different set of standards because they were in different branches?
you know that if the candidates were reversed there’d be a group claiming that McCain’s plane wasn’t shot down, he just crashed it because he was incompetent, or a coward, they’d have 20 million for ads from the usual scumbags and breathless 24/7 coverage on all the news channels.. Then we’d have tthe Manchurian candidate garbage, followed by intense scruitiny of his divorce and 2nd (trophy) wife’s money and character issues… He’d be down 20 by labor day..
Hasn’t a group dogged McCain for years claiming he gave up information while a POW that got other pilots killed?
Also, “I don’t think getting in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to become president.” is not a stand alone quote.
CLARK: He has been a voice on the Senate Armed Services Committee. And he has traveled all over the world. But he hasn’t held executive responsibility. That large squadron in the Navy that he commanded — that wasn’t a wartime squadron. He hasn’t been there and ordered the bombs to fall. He hasn’t seen what it’s like when diplomats come in and say, “I don’t know whether we’re going to be able to get this point through or not, do you want to take the risk, what about your reputation, how do we handle this publicly? He hasn’t made those calls, Bob.
SCHIEFFER: Can I just interrupt you? I have to say, Barack Obama hasn’t had any of these experiences either, nor has he ridden in a fighter plane and gotten shot down.
CLARK: I don’t think getting in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to become president.
Oh and BTW, Rick Sanchez is an idiot.
Notice how Gen. Clark didn’t say anything that was untrue, unlikely the Swift boaters.
Clark is a sad little man!
So is this Sanchez saying the swiftboaters were right, or wrong?
*unlike* the Swiftboaters.
Really, isn’t the story here that Schieffer thought that McCain getting shot down made McCain more qualified for president?
It’s like, the man was a below par pilot, he got even got shot down! THen he was a POW and made propaganda tapes for his captors. That makes him presidential! Anyone remember Admiral Stockdale? He didn’t seem very vice-presidential.
He was held as a prisoner of war in the Hoa Lo prison for the next seven years. Locked in leg irons in a bath stall, he was routinely tortured and beaten. When told by his captors that he was to be paraded in public, Stockdale slit his scalp with a razor to purposely disfigure himself so that his captors could not use him as propaganda. When they covered his head with a hat, Stockdale beat himself with a stool until his face was swollen beyond recognition. He told them in no uncertain terms that they would never use him. When Stockdale heard that other prisoners were dying under the torture, he slit his wrists and told them that he preferred death to submission
That’s fucking heroic. Making propaganda films etc, is certainly excusable, understandable, and the smart thing to do. But it really doesn’t rise to the level of heroic. So just stop.
Shit, never knew that about Stockdale. That dude was badass.
Ah skip it. McCain’s stint as a POW does show great leadership.
Wesley Clark is showing just what a small man he really is. Did any one in the military back him when he ran before. No! What does that tell us? Getting shot down, by itself does not qualify McCain to run the country. But it shows he is willing to put his life on the line for his country. When was the last time Obama did that? Drive through DC at night???
Hey, KXB, get your facts straight:
That counts one plane shot down by anti-aircraft fire, and one blown up under him while strapped to the deck of an aircraft carrier. In other words, he’s responsible for a plane lost because someone who wanted to shoot it down got lucky, and another plane lost when a missile on another American’s plane went loose and triggered a disastrous fire that ended up killing 134 Americans, wounding another 161, and about two dozen planes were lost.
McCain did absolutely nothing — and did everything right. A power surge on another plane sent a Zuni rocket across the flight deck, hitting either his plane or the one next one, triggering the fire. McCain can be seen getting the hell out of his cockpit, sliding down the nose, and running like hell — getting out of the way of the trained firefighters, precisely like he should have. It’s because he did that that he survived, because shortly thereafter the bombs on other planes started exploding, killing all the firefighters.
So, KXB, are you just ignorant, or an asshole?
Feel free to argue whether or not McCain’s military record qualifies him for president (I don’t think it does). I’ll be glad to quote the arguments made in 1992, 1996, 2000, and 2004 that showed both sides of the argument, when presented on behalf of the presidential nominees. But do NOT denigrate the man’s service in the Navy. He sactificed a hell of a lot more than the last six Democratic nominees together (Obama, Kerry, Gore, Clinton, Dukakis, Mondale) when it comes to military service.
J.
J.
So, out of the 5 planes lost, 2 were not his fault? Is that what you’re saying, Jay?
I’ll spot him the 2, if you think it’ll help.
Clark is a fucking loser…
I think truth always helps, Duros. Around here, that tends to make me a heretic.
J.
“I think truth always helps, Duros. Around here, that tends to make me a heretic.”
Delusions of persecution.
Seek psychiatric help.
Every time you try to turn a discussion to be about me, stroke, and not the topic at hand, I get a thrill up my leg — kind of like the one Chris Matthews gets from Barack Obama.
If anyone needs me, I’ll be in my bunk.
J.
“Every time you try to turn a discussion to be about me, stroke, and not the topic at hand…”
You made yourself the topic when you claimed you were being treated like a heretic. But don’t let reality get in the way of your delusions. You wouldn’t be a Republican if you had the ability to accurate judge reality.
Clark should have had more forethought than to say that regarding McCain’s military service. Any time your service includes giving up five years of your life in a P.O.W. camp, you shouldn’t have your sacrificed marginalized. However, just being in the military and leading troops doesn’t make you a sound policy maker. A civilian who has never pulled a trigger, yet has served on armed services committees, would be a better strategic planner in regard to foriegn policy and use of military force. Wesley Clark has had a storied career, even rising to the rank of NATO supreme allied commander, but his combat time is limited, (When I say combat time, I don’t mean ordering troops into battle from your armchair, I mean being the first one out of the vehicle when the shit pops off.) to about a month before he got wounded if I remember correctly I would say. However his actions yielded a Silver Star. Of course, (and I shudder to think about the backlash), you get more awards if you lead troops and get shot versus leading troops and walking out of it.
Clark did not do Senator Obama any favors by making this statement at all. Say what you want about John McCain, but you cannot question his service.
No one “questioned his service”, Clark simply noted that his experience in Vietnam doesn’t apply in anyway to the challenges ahead of him as President. Clark tapped into something that Media Matters wrote a book on recently (good book btw) about how McCain cites his service constantly as if it exempts him from penetrating questions about foreign policy. It does not, obviously.
That being said, your read is likely what will be bandied about the press and impressions are reality, unfortunately.
kind of like the one Chris Matthews gets from Barack Obama.
That was Fred Thompson, Jay, not Barack Obama.
Every little bit of truth helps around here.
You made yourself the topic when you claimed you were being treated like a heretic.
Takes two to tango. The topic wouldn’t get off topic unless others agree to go there.
However, just being in the military and leading troops doesn’t make you a sound policy maker.
Indeed, a valid argument could be made that a deep involvement in the military makes one LESS fit to be a civilian leader. People tend to stick with what they know, and seeing a broad array of approaches beyond just the use of military force might not come easily to someone indoctrinated into the military mindset.
Say what you want about John McCain, but you cannot question his service.
But you can question whether it makes him more fit than someone else. You can question whether that experience is relevant. And to suggest that those aspects of it (how/whether it prepared him for the Presidency) can’t be questioned is to use his service as a place to hide.
Me: “You made yourself the topic when you claimed you were being treated like a heretic.”
Sean: “Takes two to tango. The topic wouldn’t get off topic unless others agree to go there.”
Two points…
1.) I’m not the one changing the topic. So if you are going to come after me, you better do the same to Jay Tea.
2.) The person who initiates the problem should be the person to talk to first.
Jaye Tiegh agrees with Wes Clark:
Feel free to argue whether or not McCain’s military record qualifies him for president (I don’t think it does).
Jaye can now set aside the false outrage, as it is clear that Clark said nothing else.
Conservabots: do you want someone who will do the job, or not? (People who wish to insult the artist will find a handy guide here.)
buma, what I meant was that military service should not be a requirement for the presidency, and no military record should automatically qualify someone for the presidency. (Well, with the possible exceptions of Washington and Eisenhower.) What I said was that one can discount McCain’s military record as a qualification for office, but you can not discount the service itself. It’s a fine distinction, but a highly important one.
Duros: Chris Matthews, February 12, 2008, during MSNBC’s live primary coverage: “I have to tell you, you know, it’s part of reporting this case, this election, the feeling most people get when they hear Barack Obama’s speech. My, I felt this thrill going up my leg. I mean, I don’t have that too often.”
Feel free to double-check it, but here’s one source I suspect you trust — with verifying video:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/13/chris-matthews-i-felt-t_n_86449.html
J.
Any time your service includes giving up five years of your life in a P.O.W. camp, you shouldn’t have your sacrificed marginalized. However, just being in the military and leading troops doesn’t make you a sound policy maker. A civilian who has never pulled a trigger, yet has served on armed services committees, would be a better strategic planner in regard to foriegn policy and use of military force.
Smith, Mr. Clark said pretty much what you just wrote. He didn’t “question his service.”