links for 2008-06-29
June 29th, 2008
Uncategorized
37 Comments
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nsfw
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Out Of Touch John McCain strikes again
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Movie was great
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This is the kind of stuff that makes Americans think Europe is crazy
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Apparently these scientists have never read a comic book. Cosmic forces are in play.
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God forbid a terrorist attack happens, why would people vote for the GOP? We’ve never been hit by more terrorism than we have under a Republican president.
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Comic book artist of Fathom, Witchblade, etc. Wow.
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But the only people who give a **** are con talk show hosts, plus Dems aren’t going to reinstate it anyway (they shouldn’t)
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“After 50 years of Nasa, and after putting about $100 billion into the space station, we can’t get our own astronauts to our space station without relying on the Russians”
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Funny as hell.
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Whythankyouladies
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Says the law school professor, author and pundit. Glenn Reynolds: when you think you can’t parody something, he opens up his yap.
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classic
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He flip flops like within half an hour. Amazing.
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We’ve never been hit by more terrorism than we have under a Republican president.
One big one, several small ones. Meanwhile, under the last Democratic president, Al Qaeda hit us repeatedly and we pretty much ignored them. First WTC, African embassy bombings, Khobar Towers, USS Cole, Oklahoma City, Unibomber… and that’s just off the top of my head.
If you weren’t just comparing Bush and Clinton, then, let’s look at actual numbers. Starting in 1972 (a good landmark for terrorism; the Munich games), Republicans have held the presidency for 28 years, Democrats for 12. (Nixon II/Ford, Reagan I-II, Bush (1), Bush (2) I-II; Carter, Clinton I-II.) Just on a statistical basis, you’re going to get more terrorist attacks during Republican administrations. Unless you can document a ratio higher than 2 2/3 to 1, though, it’s pretty much insignificant.
Mind elaborating your methodology for that rather sweeping statement?
J.
Almost 3,000 people died under the most recent Republican president in the worst terror attack in US history – more than any president ever. The Cole bombings and the others were investigated, and the Unabomber was captured during the Clinton presidency. In retalliation for 9/11 Bush botched the invasion of Afghanistan and let Bin Laden get away while eventually invading the wrong country and botching that too leading to an increase in international terrorism.
It’s a heck of a job.
Like I said, Oliver, one big one — mostly planned during a Democratic president, by people who had carried out at least three major attacks during that prior Democratic administration.
Like I said, I’m curious about your methodology. Most people would consider “hit by more terrorism” to be referring to quantity of attacks, patterns of attacks. As I noted, since 9/11, terrorist attacks on US territory have been confined to piddling little incidents, not one of them even coming close to any of Al Qaeda’s attacks during the Clinton administration.
Oh, and there’s something familiar sounding about this…
“The Cole bombings and the others were investigated, and the Unabomber was captured during the Clinton presidency.”
Is that kinda like how Enron’s crimes were committed during the Clinon administration, were prosecuted under the Bush administration, and somehow became a Bush scandal?
J.
Most rational people would consider most the one where the most people were killed. Even more so because the incoming administration had warnings in hand. Sure, the plotting happened under Clinton, but the execution and botched response happened under Bush. And under President Clinton the perpetrators were pursued and the wrong country was not invaded.
Once again, you guys try to the use the construct of saying besides 9/11, what kind of terror attacks have we had. You can’t ignore 9/11, you don’t get to write that one off. “But besides that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?” indeed.
The reason why Enron got connected to Bush was because Bush was best buddies with the leader of the entire scam.
Just on a statistical basis, you’re going to get more terrorist attacks during Republican administrations.
Even this assumes that the rate of terrorism from year to year is a constant, which ignores the factors of A) if you’re liberal, primarily economic and living conditions in hotspot countries and western foreign policies that seem designed to piss them off; or B) if you’re conservative, extremist ideological critical mass.
If there’s a reliable way to study this statistically, it’s going to take a smarter guy than myself. Even the State Department’s ‘chronology of significant terrorist incidents’ seems politicized to me; in the document the ratio of Islamic terror activity/overall terrorist activity steadily approaches one the closer it gets to the present. This of course reflects a dropoff in the activities of the ETA, Sinn Fein (sic), etc., but it also reflects the critical defining of terrorism, i.e. Palestinians firing rockets into Israel is terrorism, but Israel performing mass arrests of uninvolved Gazans is not. Nor does it list the activities of Luis Posada – for how could guerilla action against Castro be terrorism?
In short, I don’t know if data is the right way to look at this, because there are so many variables and it can be spun to say almost whatever you want. It seems to me, though, that one can look at whether a strategy appeared wise from the outset. Clinton’s strategy of ‘prosecute those responsible’ seems more sensible than whatever it is Bush was trying to do with Iraq, even if it appears that the Iraqis may be pulling it together.
McCain: I ‘Don’t See How It Matters’ That I Don’t Know The Price Of Gas
In other words, I’d rather just make people feel good about it for a moment than actually do anything to deal with the situation long term.
Like I said, Oliver, one big one — mostly planned during a Democratic president, by people who had carried out at least three major attacks during that prior Democratic administration.
Jay Tea, I doubt the statistics would look good for Republican presidents, but then breaking this down in that way would be stupid. What matters is actions, and some of us aren’t so deluded to have forgotten what happened when Clinton went after bin Laden, all the republicans in congress got up and bitched about “Wag the Dog”. Some of us also remember the tough stand Reagan took in Lebanon (“Let’s get the fuck out of here”) and how well Reagan and Bush I acted to keep the Taliban in check. Perhaps if W was half as concerned with al qaeda as he was about rounding 2nd base with whomever is currently in charge of Saudi Arabia, and didn’t divert so many troops from the war on terror (in Afghanistan) to the war on Saddam, democrats wouldn’t feel so comfortable attacking the republicans for the lack of focus or efficacy in fighting terrorism.
McCain vs. McCain: Immigration Reform
I don’t follow this complaint.
First clip: “That we can and will secure our borders first while respecting the dignity and rights of citizens and legal residents of the United States.”
Security first but other considerations included.
Second clip: “[comprehensive immigration reform and not just enforcement will] be my top priority yesterday, today, and tomorrow.”
“comprehensive immigration reform and not just enforcement” is an extremely vague term and it’s hard to see how this actually contradicts the previous statement.
Third clip: “That is a compelling reason for us to move forward with our border security, and then address this issue in a humane and compassionate fashion.”
Security first and then other considerations included. Just how is this a flip flop from clip #1??
Parthenon, we tried “Clinton’s strategy of ‘prosecute those responsible.’” Several of the planners of the ‘93 WTC attack got clean away (one of them fled to Baghdad), and the “mastermind” ended up continuing his jihad from jail, courtesy of his lawyer.
Also, I’m intrigued about one idea — how precisely does one prosecute a terrorist who cheerfully dies in the process of carrying out their attacks? What kind of deterrent is our vaunted legal system to someone who’s ready and eager to die in the process?
J.
What kind of deterrent is our vaunted legal system to someone who’s ready and eager to die in the process?
So you’d be in favor of no death penalty for drug kingpins either, then? Those guys live with death threats every day so it certainly isn’t a deterrent.
Here’s a crazy idea: capture and try terrorists while also not propping up regimes that oppress people in order to get cheap gas which creates terrorists.
On a much lighter note: I still don’t get why Americans don’t like soccer. I try to explain that not only is the contest something epic, but the ladies at these games are always a welcome distraction.
What kind of deterrent is our vaunted legal system to someone who’s ready and eager to die in the process?
Jay – I see your point here, in the cases where we don’t catch the guy before he gets the chance to die for the cause. But the masterminds don’t do that anyway – they stay safe and send the Star Trek red shirts to do the job.
Of course we want to get those guys, but capturing the leadership and running them through our vaunted, transparent legal system with full access to legal defense would increase American legitimacy by a factor of about a million, by my reckoning. John Adams defended the Brits involved in the Boston Massacre, and (rightly) got them a not guilty verdict, which had the secondary benefit of increasing legitimacy of colonial courts in the eyes of MPs (although obviously not enough to prevent altercation at that point). And if we’re talking deterrence, if someone is that willing and ready to die for the cause, it would seem that life imprisonment would be a greater worry than death via fiery martyrdom.
Either way, I don’t see more bombs and bullets doing the trick – I say again, how many do we have to kill before they start to like us?
We tried “Clinton’s strategy of ‘prosecute those responsible.’” Several of the planners of the ‘93 WTC attack got clean away (one of them fled to Baghdad), and the “mastermind” ended up continuing his jihad from jail, courtesy of his lawyer.
I agree the theory is imperfect and messy. But so is the President’s, I suppose.
Has anyone ever seen a Jayne Mansfield movie? As beautiful as she is, her daughter(Mariksa Hargitay .. yes of Law & Order fame) has had a much more successful acting career
Jay Tea: “One big one, several small ones. Meanwhile, under the last Democratic president, Al Qaeda hit us repeatedly and we pretty much ignored them.”
This is a lie and you are a liar for saying it.
Clinton tried to move into Afghanistan to take them out, but the REPUBLICANS IN THE HOUSE BLOCK HIS EFFORTS. All he was left with was cruise missile attacks that didn’t have the precision needed to take out the leadership.
I’d buy Oliver’s methodology if he were to stipulate that F.D.R. was the worst president ever.
Hmm… I’m not sure about that, Save. Lincoln might actually be the “worst.” Counting both sides, the Civil War cost about 100,000 more American lives than World War II.
Limited to just the Union side, though, and FDR wins.
J.
McCain less than one week before ThinkProgress claims he doesn’t know the price of gas:
Gosh, ThinkProgress would never lie, would they?
I posted a long list of terrorist incidents that have occured under the Bush presidency. I left out the bulk of incidents in Iraq, which of course, the many mortar attacks, suicide bombs, IEDs, and small gun sniping in Iraq don’t count for you guys for some reason. Even those acts carried out against American civilians there. Yet, when asked, you always say “better there than have them follow us here.” Whatever that means. I guess you guys think that the anti-American violence is justified because it’s guerrilla warfare against a foreign occupying force.
I don’t understand why you guys have so little respect for the Law Enforcement side of anti-terrorism. I assume that includes go after the financials and rooting out the plotters in this country, tracking suspects through other countries and generally trying to take these people off the streets. Trials are nice, because unlike these pro-war conservatives like JayTea and SaveFarris, lining suspects up against the wall and putting a bullet in their heads without a trial and at the say so of some arbitrary political appointee just seems plain wrong. Meanwhile, bombing the piss out of some other country on the hope that we an occasional terrorist is among the many Iraqi civilian casualties.
Also, if you are complaining about a lack of response to the Cole bombing, blame Bush. Clinton, as an outgoing president, didn’t want to commit Bush (the incoming president) to an action. He left the response to Bush who decided that the best way to protect the country was to build a missile defense system. Very nice of Clinton, not wanting to foist a fucked up action on the next president. He certainly didn’t learn it from Bush Sr. whose committed the US to Somalia before leaving office.
Can you imagine if the Bush Administration was in charge during WWII?
With Pearl Harbor being bombed, Bush would have invaded Turkey and then turned it over to his family’s business partners, aka the Nazis, with no-bid contracts.
JWG: Gosh, ThinkProgress would never lie, would they?
Gee, J (digression: Does every body who posts these kinds of stupid easily disproven comments here have that initial?), why would ThinkProgress have to lie. If you actually read the article OW linked to you’d see McCain’s own words:
QED
SaveFarris: “I’d buy Oliver’s methodology if he were to stipulate that F.D.R. was the worst president ever.”
How you figure? I would like to see your logic coming up with that argument complete with quotes.
Personally, I think you are lying. I think you are twisting what Oliver said in a fashion that will be easy to disprove, but I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and I am willing to read and respond to your argument, if you are willing to give one.
With Pearl Harbor being bombed, Bush would have invaded Turkey
Unlike FDR, who invaded … Africa.
midderpidge: “With Pearl Harbor being bombed, Bush would have invaded Turkey”
SaveFarris: “Unlike FDR, who invaded … Africa.”
Did FDR invade Africa before or after Germany did?
Serious question… Do you have any knowledge on any subject?
Gosh, Sean — McCain doesn’t remember how much gas cost the last time he pumped his own gas — how many candidates are out pumping their own gas for the past few months? He OBVIOUSLY knows how expensive gas is since he stated it less than a week before ThinkProgress tried to make him look out of touch.
ThinkProgress (and Oliver) are lying by trying to make it look like McCain doesn’t know the price of gas. McCain was answering a different question. And you fell for it, sucker!
North Africa actually had strategic significance and took some pressure off of Russia.
Bush would have invaded Turkey because they were an enemy from World War I and they has a history of using WMDs. During the occupation of Turkey, Bush would probably awarded no bid reconstruction contracts to his family’s business friends.
“ThinkProgress (and Oliver) are lying by trying to make it look like McCain doesn’t know the price of gas. McCain was answering a different question. And you fell for it, sucker!”
Actually, if you read what was on Think Progress, you’d know that’s exactly what they said. So your strawman attack against Think Progress is a lie. Amazing, a right-winger doing exactly what they are accusing a left-winger of doing.
McCain clearly said he doesn’t remember what the price of gas was the last, nor does he think it matters. If you don’t think that will hurt him politically, then you are deluded.
Explain why it matters that McCain doesn’t remember what the price of gas was several months ago, especially when he stated several days ago that it was currently above $4/gallon. Do you remember exactly how much you paid for gas 6 months ago?
Based on the evidence that McCain DOES know the current price of gas, here’s the lie from ThinkProgress:
1) Headline claims “…I Don’t Know The Price Of Gas”
2) “…John McCain acknowledged he was unaware of the price of gas”
3) “McCain’s cluelessness about gas prices…”
Seriously, you’re going to defend this?
It’s a ridiculous attack. They would just be better off attacking McCain’s ridiculous and incontinent gas price proposals.
“Explain why it matters that McCain doesn’t remember what the price of gas was several months ago…”
Months? The way McCain made it sound, he hadn’t pumped his gas in so long he couldn’t remember doing it. If that’s only months, then that’s pretty sad.
I think most people would know how much it costs to fill up their tank of gas, because that affects them deeply. Every time it goes up, it cuts deeply into their personal finances. McCain has been trying to paint Obama as some elitist who is out of touch with the common folk, but McCain is a multimillionaire who could care less about the price of gas, because even at $10 a gallon, it wouldn’t affect his finances in the slightest bit.
“Based on the evidence that McCain DOES know the current price of gas, here’s the lie from ThinkProgress:”
Interesting edits. Considering what the story actually said is different from how you are interpreting the headline, I think the problem lies with you.
I still don’t get why Americans don’t like soccer.
Not enough hitting.
There is plenty of hitting in soccer, Oliver. The problem is every bump puts a player on the ground writhing in agony until the official makes a call or its clear he won’t then the player pops up, limps a few steps for the camera then goes on like nothing happened.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrXUHaTBqfw
“There is plenty of hitting in soccer, Oliver. The problem is every bump puts a player on the ground writhing in agony until the official makes a call or its clear he won’t then the player pops up, limps a few steps for the camera then goes on like nothing happened.”
Officials should start throwing out players for diving. That would end that really fast.
half as concerned with al qaeda as he was about rounding 2nd base with whomever is currently in charge of Saudi Arabia,
HA!
Several of the planners of the ‘93 WTC attack got clean away (one of them fled to Baghdad)
Yes, as I remember he was a “guest” of Saddam’s. In prison.
Gosh, ThinkProgress would never lie, would they?
McCain probably DID know last week. That was last week.
Do you remember exactly how much you paid for gas 6 months ago?
Do you really want an answer to that? Because it just makes your team look even worse. I believe it was in the $1.97 range.