I don’t know how how any heterosexual man can assert (or believe, or assume, etc) that being homosexual is a choice. There’s no reason to believe that it is a choice at all, any more than another person realizing they’re a heterosexuality. There’s no basis to believe that the two situations are fundamentally different… so unless, Jay, you’d like to claim that you weighed the pros and cons of your own potential sexualities and decided to be a heterosexual…

More important, even if it IS a choice, what the hell does it matter? It shouldn’t matter a-tall in the political sphere. Not one bit. Consenting adults in privacy? Go nuts, do what you want!

Applied to the religious sphere, the question of whether it is a choice perhaps matters more. But this is one point where I realize that Christianity is a big steaming pile of bullshit. In actuality, I don’t believe that choice exists. Free will is a total illusion, as everything that you ever do and ever experience is due to the interaction of a) genetics, which you have no control over, b) dumb luck, such as where you’re born, who your parents are, etc., which you have no control over either. From the point where you come into existence until you die, you’re simply an example of physics. In that sense, you are not fundamentally different from a chemical reaction in a beaker, or from a line of dominoes toppling over.

This is why eternal punishment as meted out by God is a horseshit idea. If you can’t choose anything that you do, if you become a sinful person, if you reject Christ because of factors outside of your control, you get sent to eternal hellfire? That’s pointless. Furthermore, if an omnipotent and omniscient God is up there, and presumably knows all the physical states of all the matter in the universe, He therefore knows before you even exist how you’ll live your life: gay, straight, Christian, atheist, Hindu, tall, short, handsome, ugly, etc.

Punishment for a foregone conclusion is a fucking ridiculous idea.

Been there. Done that. Jay believes that “ultimately,” gay people choose to be gay. He believes this because no one has proven that gay people are born gay.

One, of course, does not follow from the other but have fun trying to convince Jay of that. Especially since he refuses to discuss the question any more!

Which really doesn’t clarify anything at all, does it?

Yes, and he also said “The claim comes from GAY PEOPLE and their advocates that they are BORN GAY.”

Which is why I just asked for a clarification as to whether he believes people are born gay or not.

Jay, you wrote:

I am sure there are a variety of factors, some being physical (hormonal) and some being societal and personal that can lend itself to the predisposition of being gay, but ultimately it is still a choice.

Now “but ultimately, it is still a choice” is a positive assertion that something is true. I asked you to prove it and you refuse. I am not asking you to prove that gay people are born gay. I am and have been asking you to prove that gay people choose to be gay. Tow different things, my friend, no matter how you want to duck and dodge it.

You also chose to start drinking in the first place. The fact that you didn’t ‘realize’ you had a problem is irrelevant.

Oh christ. Choosing to have a drink is not the same thing as choosing to be an alcoholic. It’s like saying that choosing to cross the street is choosing to be hit by a car.

I’m not casting moral judgments on anybody.

Right. You’re just defending the argument that homosexuality is a sin that homosexuals choose to commit.

Jay: No it is not.

Then what’s the problem?

On what facts do you base your opinion that gays choose to be gay?

Because there is no evidence that proves people are born gay.

Which really doesn’t clarify anything at all, does it?

Jay, could you just clarify for me: Do you believe gays are born gay, or that it’s a choice they make to be gay?

I’m not getting into the whole proof/proving negative bit. Just want to make sure I understand your base position so I’m reading your postings with the right understanding.

B: Yes you were.

C. Prove I was.

Better?

Somehow, I think it’s problematic to assume that people are “born” one way or the other. I think it is probably safer to say we are each of us starting out both, as all developing fetuses (fetae) possess both sexual characteristics until a certain point when genetics takes over. At some point in development, that decision is made for us.
Would that be a fair characterization?
If so, how can we justify legislating over something people have no concious control of?

What’s the problem, D? Mr. Craig didn’t want to marry the guy in the next stall.

Once again.

Again
Again
Again
and Again

And again

The claim comes from GAY PEOPLE and their advocates that they are BORN GAY. Is it possible for you to stop trying to play word games in a bogus attempt to put the burden of proof on me?

You have only a negative proof: gays choose to be gay because there’s no evidence that they are born that way.

That’s just it. I don’t have to prove anything as I am not the one making a positive claim.

Person A: “I was born gay.”

Person B: “No you weren’t.”

Person A: “Prove I wasn’t”

Person B: “That’s a logical fallacy. You have to prove you were.”

I’m not going to discuss this part of the issue anymore because you continually engage in an intellectually dishonest viewpoint of telling me I have to prove a negative.

At the same time, in Christianity it appears that it is a sin for a man merely to be attracted to a man

No it is not.

Your comparisons to pedophiles or incest are, as you anticipated, wholly offensive. We are talking about consensual homosexual sex between two adults.

Except I didn’t compare homosexuals to pedophiles. I merely used them as a point of reference in context to people allegedly being born a certain way. Nice try at deflection.

All this time I thought proving a negative was impossible. Jay has dispelled that myth, apparently.

That’s hilarious since I am the one being challenged to prove a negative.

Just to reiterate, Jay, you’re saying the same thing:

No I am not. See above.

It was a long time before i even realized I had a problem. I did, however, choose to quite drinking and maintain my sobriety on a daily basis. This is a constantly self-conscious process. It requires constant vigilance and an awareness that even one drink will set me back down the path of self-destruction.

You also chose to start drinking in the first place. The fact that you didn’t ‘realize’ you had a problem is irrelevant. Nobody held your head back and forced alcohol down your throat. Don’t get me wrong. I’m no saint myself. There was a point in my life where I was headed down a very dangerous path. Drugs, drinking and surrounding myself with the wrong people and it took a few brushes with the law to wake my ass up. But those were conscious decisions I made.

Again, you are casting moral judgments on people

I’m not casting moral judgments on anybody. You are 100% flat out wrong on that.

Asking homosexuals to go through a similar process of self denial in terms of their sexuality is ludicrous on its face,

Speaking of which,

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/06/27/sens-craig-and-vitter-team-up-to-co-sponsor-marriage-protection-amendment/

Larry Craig and David Vitter… have named themselves as co-sponsors of S.J. Res. 43, the Marriage Protection Amendment. If passed, the bill would amend the Constitution to declare that marriage “shall consist only of the union of a man and a woman.”

Irony is the new black this year.

Just to reiterate, Jay, you’re saying the same thing:

“Gays choose to be gay and since nobody can prove otherwise, you’ll just have to accept it.”

This is a fairly awesome leap in logic: If A can’t be proven then B must be true.

You make this assertion even in the face of mountains of anecdotal evidence that the vast majority of heterosexuals or homosexuals have no recollection of ever experiencing a moment of choice of any degree in their sexual preference.

You also wrote:

I am sure there are a variety of factors, some being physical (hormonal) and some being societal and personal that can lend itself to the predisposition of being gay, but ultimately it is still a choice.

Even here, I was not born with a predisposition for being attracted to women. I just am. yes, I can choose to sleep with a man if I want but it would take an incredible denial of self to sleep with men and sustain an intimate relationship with a man over any extended period of time. The decision to be intimate with a man, on my part, would be a conscious choice in constant need of conscious reinforcement. I don’t believe that gays experience gay relationships in this way. They would, however, experience any heterosexual relationship this way because, again, it would constitute a conscious and asserted denial of self.

And for the record, Jay, I am an alcoholic six years sober. I can tell you that I never chose to be one or become one. I, like most alcoholics, had no idea I might be predisposed to be an alcoholic and once I started drinking I never made a conscious decision to let it get out of hand. It was a long time before i even realized I had a problem. I did, however, choose to quite drinking and maintain my sobriety on a daily basis. This is a constantly self-conscious process. It requires constant vigilance and an awareness that even one drink will set me back down the path of self-destruction.

Asking homosexuals to go through a similar process of self denial in terms of their sexuality is ludicrous on its face, inhuman at it’s core because there is no comparison between alcohol abuse and consensual sex between adults. One is never healthy, the other can be perfectly healthy at all times.

Again, you are casting moral judgments on people based on a proposition – that they choose their behavior – for which you have absolutely no evidence. Indeed, you assert this proposition despite the very large amount of anecdotal evidence — even from your own life — that sexual preference has little if anything do with conscious choice.

Jay, that’s exactly what you’re doing. There who people who say that gays choose to be gay and you believe it is a fact without any actual positive proof of it. You have only a negative proof: gays choose to be gay because there’s no evidence that they are born that way. That isn’t a logical proof of anything. But you go further to actually judge homosexuals based on a belief you have no evidence of (rather two unproven beliefs if we include the belief in god itself). The more accurate statement is that no one knows how sexual preference is determined and so it is impossible to judge homosexuals as somehow “violating” god’s law.

My larger point is that in Christianity, it is not a sin for men to be attracted to women. It is however a sin to lust after them.

At the same time, in Christianity it appears that it is a sin for a man merely to be attracted to a man, no matter how that person acts on that attraction. That’s an impossible standard of judgment.

Your comparisons to pedophiles or incest are, as you anticipated, wholly offensive. We are talking about consensual homosexual sex between two adults. I have never seen someone make a sweeping comparison between heterosexuality and pedophilia, even though there are a lot of heterosexual pedophiles. For some reason, pedophilia is only dragged out when trying to make points about homosexuals. Are pedophiles born pedophiles? Again, I don’t know. But there are reasons why pedophilia is against the law. The same reasons don’t hold for consensual sex between gay adults. They simply don’t. But the “religious” insist on making the comparison any way.

The idea here is not that some people prone to certain behaviors should not have to control themselves in society. Indeed, the maintenance of society requires that they do not choose to act on certain desires. My point, however, is that being gay and engaging in consensual sex between adults does not fall into that category.

Is that nature or nurture or both? I don’t know. But I do know it was not a conscious choice on my part.

Exactly. So why should people be punished for that?

Are pedophiles born the way they are? (And no I am not comparing pedophilia to homosexuality. I am merely talking about choices vs. being born a certain way) Are those who engage in incest born that way?

People can be predisposed to being alcoholic, but they still ultimately make the decision to become one.

Going back to the Biblical discussion here, I understand that in the christian tradition there is the free will to sin or not sin. While can easily be seen in the decision to commit adultery or to entertain adulterous thoughts, it cannot be so easily applied to sexual preference because while we may choose to commit adultery, we do not choose which gender we are sexually attracted to. We just don’t. Assigning homosexuality to the category of sinful behavior then doesn’t leave any allowance for free will and so is a different order of expectation altogether.

Unfortunately, you’re again making the incorrect assertion that people are born gay as if it the same as eye color. It isn’t.

I’ll just add that I find it interesting that you have so far offered no basis for your opinion that we choose our sexual orientation other than to say that some other explanation can’t be proved. That’s not exactly a logical argument, Jay, and you know it.

It is most certainly logical. There are people who believe that there are alien life forms living on other planets. I am supposed to just accept that as fact because somebody believes it be so? If I don’t, why should I have to prove there isn’t? That’s illogical.

The world wasn’t flat just because no one could prove it was round.

Well, I can’t prove in the textual sense that God exists. That’s what faith is: evidence without proof. But the issue of homosexuality is not one that is being discussed as a matter of faith, but rather a matter of biology and science. You realize what that kind of thinking lends itself to? “Well I was born _______ and since nobody can prove otherwise, you’ll just have to accept it.”

Cmon.

The world wasn’t flat just because no one could prove it was round.

I don’t know either way. What i do know is that I never chose to be heterosexual. There was never a moment that I sat and contemplated, do I like boys or girls. I just started noticing girls.

Is that nature or nurture or both? I don’t know. But I do know it was not a conscious choice on my part.

The same goes for the countless stories and experiences i have heard or read about coming out stories from gay friends and others. They didn’t decide to be attracted to the same sex. They just were – and they knew that made them different.

If you want hard scientific proof about being born into our sexuality, you’re right to say that there isn’t any – there’s no evidence we are born heterosexual or born homosexual or bisexual or whatever.

But there are mountains of anecdotal evidence in the form of personal experience that suggests sexual orientation is not something we choose consciously. Jay, did you decide consciously to be heterosexual?

I did not choose to be attracted to women and every gay man I know who has shared his experiences with me have said they did not choose to be attracted to other men.

Going back to the Biblical discussion here, I understand that in the christian tradition there is the free will to sin or not sin. While can easily be seen in the decision to commit adultery or to entertain adulterous thoughts, it cannot be so easily applied to sexual preference because while we may choose to commit adultery, we do not choose which gender we are sexually attracted to. We just don’t. Assigning homosexuality to the category of sinful behavior then doesn’t leave any allowance for free will and so is a different order of expectation altogether.

It would be as if the bible said having blue eyes was sinful and that if you have blue eyes, you had to deny yourself sight to live a life of faith.

And that means the only other possibility is that gays choose to be gay? That makes sense to you?

What evidence is there that proves people are born straight?

Jay: If our sexuality is something we are born with and cannot change, you would have to agree that applies to ALL forms of sexuality, correct?

Makes sense. But knowing or acknowledging that sexuality may not happen for a variety of reasons. So it’s really hard to judge whether someone who switches to a particular sexuality as an adult (Anne Heche?) was actually changing their sexuality or finally acknowledging it.