Do you think that possibly the NYPD might be aware of some of those statistics? And while they are government workers who probably don’t really work as hard they might if they were in the private sector, stopping crime is thier business. If you were in the crimefighting business where would you concentrate your efforts if knocking back violent crime was your goal?

Fafaroo,
What do you suppose equal protection means?

Amendment 14 – Citizenship Rights.
1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Do you think that means adding points to a test? Or accepting a lower score? Or a tiebreaker being the color of one’s skin? Or awarding a portion of a government contract to special americans based on thier ethnic identity?

Which part of equal protection don’t you get?

Institutional barriers aren’t necessarily written into law. They can be a matter of custom, practice, or just the way the rules are applied.

Put it this way: Suppose you sent 1,000 young men into Times Square to walk around, 500 white and 500 black. At the end of a day or even a week, do you think the NYPD would stop and question the same percentage of both groups? If not, is the NYPD doing anything illegal–probably not. This is an institutional barrier to equal participation in society all the same.

Can you? You brought it up.

Have I ever been affected by AA? Not sure.

Well, then, WTF do you care?

But the idea of it is fundamentally hypocritical and has served to create resentment and anger among people like myself who have never wronged anyone,

Can you at least try to identify with someone who has, historically and sometimes with government complicity, been wronged?

As members of the society at the time (I’m assuming your family didn’t arrive on these shores more recently than, say, the Civil Rights Act of 1964) your ancestors almost certainly had something to do with, or at least were benefited by, the policies and laws in place at the time.

And your current position, particularly relative to the current starting position of those “poor” you feel so little for, is a result of those policies and laws. So whether there are currently any “government policies [which] actively and intentionally discriminate against those that are not white or asian men” on the books or not, the effects of those prior policies lingers.

The proper way to make up for that? I dunno. But where two equally qualified candidates are involved, deciding the tie in favor of the historically discriminated minority doesn’t seem too out of line to me.

“But what of an average white kid who doesn’t get into the college of his choice? Well, there’s no end of whining and complaining from the j mccann’s about how the system is rigged and unfair.”

Can you tell me what government policies actively and intentionally discriminate against those that are not white or asian men? That’s my only beef with AA. And it’s mostly in the public sector that it ticks me off. I don’t care who private companies hire and for what reasons. Ultimately, it’s their a** as a company that’s on the line anyways.

fafaroo again..

“Affirmative action is really intended to influence the choice between two equally qualified people such that its weighted toward the minority candidate.”

Exactly. State sanctioned racism.

Sounds like your saying that my formerly lower-middle class, then lower class, now upper middle class white rear end is being held responsible for sins of the past that neither myself or any of my ancsestors had anything to do with. If that’s the case and that’s how you feel, then we’ll just agree to disagree, because you’re not going to change my mind, and vice versa. Have I ever been affected by AA? Not sure. But the idea of it is fundamentally hypocritical and has served to create resentment and anger among people like myself who have never wronged anyone, yet are told that it’s not ok to be racist/sexist, but that it’s ok for government policy to be racist/sexist toward us. Hopefully, this will make some sense to you and you can see where many are coming from now.

Not that I’m that worried. AA will be gone before long. It’s about run it’s course.

Amused Observer: You are correct in your assertation that whites and asians have not been legally excluded from participating at all…I speak merely of added points, lower acceptable qualifications, set aside contracts, and quotas.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone spin completely around so fast.

But what of an average white kid who doesn’t get into the college of his choice? Well, there’s no end of whining and complaining from the j mccann’s about how the system is rigged and unfair.

Really?

Maybe that white kid should have worked harder to set himself apart and above among the pool applicants. Oh well, we can’t have that. If you’re already white and well off you shouldn’t have to work harder than others to succeed! Sheesh.

Oh so you mean the stuff designed to counterbalance the decades of unstated, unspoken but still illegal discrimination against non-whites.

Of course you make it sound as if affirmative action is a process by which unqualified people are always given positions and opportunities over qualified people. That, my friends, is not really how it works. Affirmative action is really intended to influence the choice between two equally qualified people such that its weighted toward the minority candidate.

I am not surprised that you choose to emphasize what you emphasize.

Why do you think Ward Connerly is so unpopular?

Um, do you wanna rethink this one a little, AO? Legal exclusionary institutional tactics? Please point me to a sector of our society where whites have been legally “excluded.” College? Nope. The corporate world? Nope. The medical profession? Nope. The law profession? Nope. Education? Service sector? Industrial work? Nope, nope and nope. Now tell which one of these sector’s work forces was shaped by decades on unstated, unspoken but still illegal discrimination against non-whites. Try all of them.

Duros, Projecting? I don’t think so. Generally speaking the bars set by merit are blind. In my working lifetime the only legal exclusionary institutional tactics that have been applied have been blatent discrimination towards white and asian males.

I think we would all favor a meritocracy, and I think, by and large, that is what we have. But we can’t say that institutional barriers don’t exist because they clearly do. In such cases, the bars set by the meritocracy have to be fluid enough to balance out the exclusionary tactics of those institutions.

Amused observer: You appear to advocate for something other than a meritocracy. Where those who work and try and actually achieve are penalized. No, seriously. THINK about this. Picture the hard working, law abiding person who has a better score and a superior skill set being denied a job or a spot in school because the job or the spot goes to someone else less qualified based on the color of thier skin.

Say whaaatt??

I said absolutely nothing of the sort. I objected to the situation where the hard working person loses out to nepotism (to short-hand describe it), and you’re interpreting that as my saying I advocate something “Where those who work and try and actually achieve are penalized.”??

I don’t think you could get closer to 180 degrees bass ackwards.

Nice try at a deflection, but I caught you. I said institutional barriers. If you’re claiming that racial bias in law enforcement, education, employment, and housing are all “self-inflicted,” then you have ‘fessed up to my accusation–you imagine a world where institutional barriers don’t exist.

I recommend you get out more.

Are you freaking kidding me? George W. Bush.

You appear to advocate for something other than a meritocracy. Where those who work and try and actually achieve are penalized. No, seriously. THINK about this. Picture the hard working, law abiding person who has a better score and a superior skill set being denied a job or a spot in school because the job or the spot goes to someone else less qualified based on the color of thier skin.

I keep trying to thing of a short way to sum it up, and I think that finally made it clear to me. It’s blaming the victim.

Now, I agree some, even far to many, are quick to play the victim game. But if you want folks to not talk like morons, not have kids they can’t afford, not spend wastefully you have to provide them with some way to learn how to do that.

It’s like refusing the tell kids about birth control and then blaming them for not knowing that “you can’t get pregnant if she’s on top” isn’t true.

Saying “learn to talk well, learn to make a budget but don’t expect anyone to show you how” won’t work.

Riiiiiight because the white suburbs are just teaming with intellectually curious, extremely well-behaved teenagers. The fact that you insist on singling out blacks as stupid and violent (let’s stop with the euphimisms, shall we?) while leaving out the fact the very same problems occur in white suburbs across the country is indicative of someone with an ax to grind. You yourself write:

I’ve seen many a white suburbanite kids fail down.

So have I. But where I see it as evidence that no race or class has a monopoly on wasted lives, who do you choose to focus your anger on? At the same time, as I’ve said, I’ve a lot of middle class kids — including me – right themselves precisely because of the cushion that their class and race gave them. Others? Not as easy.

Conservatives have fundamentally distorted progressive ideas and policies into a philosophy that holds no individual responsible for their own lives and thinks some people should be paid cash money just because life is unfair to them. That’s a bullshit caricature that most conservatives find it easier to attack than reality.

The reality of it is, as i see it, progressives don’t think life should be fair, they think that everyone should have an equal opportunity to improve themselves if they choose to but that no one should be allowed to live in squalor and hunger no matter their abilities or personal failings. That isn’t fairness, it’s simple humanity. It’s a basic cornerstone of a just civilization. Or at least it should be. Conservatives get pissed off at the poor because they think it have it easy, as if poverty is some kind of permanent, fun-filled vacation from life. It ain’t by a long shot and it’s a tough thing to break out of even for the most motivated and able.