You can tell that the writer of this Human Events blog entry wants to write that Blacks are stupid. But instead he basically did a search and replace and wrote “Urban America”. It’s sort of funny.
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June 22nd, 2008
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The difference to me is that one wants you to have nightmares to protect you from, and the other wants you to have a chanceto fulfil your dreams.
You are so right. He wants to say “stupid black inner-city people”.
He spends his time insulting urban (black) Americans like myself. Besides not feeling like an idiot – which he judges me as (ans who is he to say I and others like me are stupid), why should I vote for McCain. Is he any more honest or concerned about “urban issues”? and by this I don’t mean Black problems, but urban issues like high density poverty, housing and food insecurity, jobs, etc.
What I find distasteful about uber-conservative republicans is this obvious refusal to acknowlege and address economic disparities among citizens. It’s as if poor people are poor, ineffective so let’s create/maintain policies for the capable. Let’s ignore them or those issues, maybe they’ll starve to death or kill each other off because high crime and poverty are soulmates, and then we’ll be free of those inconvenient masses.
Of course it’s coded racism.
I normally wouldn’t read that crap, but it’s interesting how many logical holes there are in the guy’s argument. He says pols of Obama’s “class” have created inner-city poverty? Through what–failure to enact social legislation? I thought the poor brought it on themselves, the usual cliché. And why do I doubt that in another context the writer would be calling MLK a “distinguished American?”
The ad for Robert Novak and Ann Coulter at the top of the page should have made it clear, in any case, “Hi there! We’re MORONS!”
You accurately identify the trees but mischaracterize the forest. Indeed the writer uses the term Urban America as a synonym for black. The post has several themes, it contrasts value systems, it characterizes liberal ideas of the past as failed policies that lack a coherent intellectual underpinning but a strong emotional appeal.
The first voting block mentioned is not black but white catholic blue collar voters. The author cannot imagine why these voters would support a secular proabortion candidate and can only posit ignorance as a reason.
He then mentions blacks. He points out that Obama is going to be linked with black civil right leaders of the past but in the authors opinion Obama has accomplished nothing actually noteworthy other than he himself profiting from the politics of identity championed as a tactic by the Democratic Party.
He then points out some of the tactics of identity politics that are being waged against John McCain. He points out that this is a pattern that has repeated itself since the 60’s, that black votes get little but lip service because their monolithic support for Democrats has removed that voting block from play. In his opinion, Obama will give the larger moneyed portion of the Democratic coalition much more deference because the black vote is already locked up. In short, that both portions of the Democratic coalition are stupid, one for supporting failed liberal policies of the past, the other for believing that that their lot in life is really going to change.
I don’t see it completely that way, but do believe that in the end blacks are going to gain more self esteem than actual change. Maybe that will get them a little further down the Golden Road to the pivotal Dorothy in Oz moment when they realize that collectively the capacity for change resides in themselves and won’t happen until they make it happen. The country will be better off when that happens but I am unwilling to agreeably pay the price for their self enlightenment.
Yes. The most important thing we need to do is show the world that our penis is the biggest.
Just wondering if people will ever grasp the concept that in society, there will always be poor people that live in rough neighborhoods because of either a) the sum total of all their decisions have landed them there, or b) they are limited in capability and are where they should be based on their abilities, and finally, c) they’re content they are and know no other way. Or it could be any combination of those three reasons. There aren’t any eeeevil whites around these areas because they left long ago. Can’t say I blame them. Look at what goes on in “urban” areas. When in this society, you hear the phrase “all-black neighborhood,” and people of all races immediately think “I’m not going there.” Sad but true. And white racism is no longer an excuse.
Race baiters are a dying breed. Butter hurry and milk that white guild for all it’s worth, ow. Time is almost up.
Amused Observer, what makes you think the “voting block” mentioned in this paragraph:
“These neighborhoods are filled with nominal Christians who, so we are told, abhor abortion and the secular culture. Why, then, have they thrown their support behind Obama, the most radically pro-abortion candidate in US history and a man embraced by the icons of amoral popular culture? Ignorance is the only explanation.”
…is made up of blue collar Catholic voters?
Here we go with the “Democrats don’t do anything for blacks” thing again. I vote for Democrats because they have been more willing to protect and enforce civil rights/anti-discrimination laws than Republicans. They’ve also been willing to try and repair any damage done to them by previous Republican Administrations. That’s about it, at least when it comes to my specific concerns as a black person. By the way, if you reply, please don’t reply with the “But…but…The Party of Lincoln!!!” meme.
If Obama wins, it will inform the world that America really does have an inferiority complex, and that it now prefers to model itself after Europe. If McCain wins, the rest of the world will know that America still regards itself as exceptional, unique, different.
I would have to say the opposite is true.
Jmccann’s comment says it all. According to him, poor people are poor because they are stupid, lazy, or “made bad choices”. It never occurs to guys like him that the game is rigged. What do you bet he wasn’t born into a poor family? Asshole.
I was a little bit heartened by reading the 5 comments on the Human Events page on this article. Four of the commenters were as repulsed as I was.
If I may quote Instaputz, this guy should have to finish every comment with ‘but, on the other hand, I’m a total asshole.’
Voting McCain is now the political equivalent of being a goth?
“The author cannot imagine why these voters would support a secular proabortion candidate and can only posit ignorance as a reason.”
That’s because the author is a shit stain. Could it be that white blue collar Catholic voters have some OTHER reasons to vote for candidates besides their position on abortion? Nah. Because according to you and the author, they are STUPID. You go on to laughably complain about “identity politics.”
“He points out that Obama is going to be linked with black civil right leaders of the past but in the authors opinion Obama has accomplished nothing actually noteworthy other than he himself profiting from the politics of identity championed as a tactic by the Democratic Party.”
It’s little wonder that both you and the author derive little else from Obama’s success. After all, you both regard the entire black voting black as nothing more than idiots, and then wonder why they don’t vote for your side more often.
You see them as nothing more than a monolithic voting block of “urban Americans” ie stupid black people. And again, you are the one complaining about identity politics.
Hmph. Shows what I know. I saw “urban Americans” and saw it as a contrast to “rural Americans” and all the stereotyping done there — unsophisticated, uneducated, hicks from the sticks, uncultured, blue-collar, flyover country, bigoted, bitter, clinging to our guns and religion, uptight, moralistic, xenophobic, intolerant…
Did I miss any?
Man, it’d be nice if someone could keep a list of these coded racist words and implications so people wouldn’t stumble across them on occasion. I nearly got myself in hot water for once mentioning “noose.”
I was thinking in terms of Westerns, like Clint Eastwood’s “Hang ‘Em High.”
J.
“Hmph. Shows what I know. I saw “urban Americans” and saw it as a contrast to “rural Americans” and all the stereotyping done there.”
What you know is actually very little. And no, he was not using urban Americans to refer to anyone who isn’t a rural American. If he did, his article would actually make LESS sense than it already does.
I’ve often suspected that Mr. Tea only pretends to hold some of his outrageous beliefs. I think I’ve caught him out for sure this time.
The linked article contains the following:
And this:
And Mr. Tea would have us believe the writer is NOT talking about black folks? That he’s talking about “not-rural” voters?
How will Mr. Obama “betray” urban voters, Mr. Tea? Who do you imagine lives in the “economically distressed” neighborhoods the writer depicts? And why does the writer point out that Mr. Obama has “nothing in common” with them?
Really, Mr. Tea. You can fool some of the people some of the time. Not this time, though.
“Man, it’d be nice if someone could keep a list of these coded racist words and implications so people wouldn’t stumble across them on occasion.”
Better yet, how about if conservatives just try paying attention to the culture and world around them?
“it’d be nice if someone could keep a list of these coded racist words and implications so people wouldn’t stumble across them on occasion. I nearly got myself in hot water for once mentioning “noose.” ”
I grew up in a farm community that was 95% white, and know I’ve said some offensive things by accident on occasion.
but I’d either have to be willfully naive or an idiot to blame the friends I offended for it. They forgave me and we moved on.
welcome to the US, JT. I’d suggest you try to learn about American culture while you’re here. makes adulthood much more pleasant.
Bruce Henry said the following…
“Jmccann’s comment says it all. According to him, poor people are poor because they are stupid, lazy, or “made bad choices”. It never occurs to guys like him that the game is rigged. What do you bet he wasn’t born into a poor family? Asshole.”
There’s a difference between being “born into poverty,” and ending up there when your in your 20’s or 30’s. Probably 99.999% of the people in this country have to accomplish certain things to have at least a normal life, no matter what class you are born into. Christ, a one page bullet point presentation could prevent poverty if people would just listen…..
(and yes, bruce…..on average, people that are poor are less intelligent and don’t work quite as hard as those that are successful. do you disagree with that? Asshole.)
But anyways……
1) finish high school
2) don’t have kids you can’t afford
3) do not abuse drugs
4) don’t live beyond your means
5) do not commit a felony
6) stay employed, even if you have to swallow your pride and take a job you feel might be beneath you.
7) learn to speak at least reasonably decent English
Do these things, and you will not be poor. May not be rich, buy you sure won’t be one of the people expecting the government to rescue you from your pathetic life.
Got it? Asshole.
I think you’ve overlooked something, Mr. McCann. I know lots of people who have broken at least three of your little rules and they’re still not poor.
Of course, they’re also white.
Wow, McCann, it must be tough living here in America with all these people to whom you are superior. If everyone could just live the exemplary life you have. What an injustice that your government calls on you to help those poor (black) people beneath your station, those lucky-ducky poor folks that get everything. Because if you are poor and a minority and live in a crime-infested neighborhood, you TRULY are the lucky one.
“4) don’t live beyond your means”
Jesus, dude, living beyond your means is the American way, man. Indeed, being middle class in American practically requires significant amounts of debt.
<i.”Hmph. Shows what I know. I saw “urban Americans” and saw it as a contrast to “rural Americans” and all the stereotyping done there — unsophisticated, uneducated, hicks from the sticks, uncultured, blue-collar, flyover country, bigoted, bitter, clinging to our guns and religion, uptight, moralistic, xenophobic, intolerant..
Ah, you forgot stupid, Jay. Ever read your blog comments? Look neigh further.
Wait. Please also include your blog authors as well.
LOL Plantsmantx,
I think that because I actually read the article. Because I’m not aware of a strong antisecular movement in the black community. Because I don’t hear about blacks protesting abortions.
As for whether or not Democrats do anything for blacks, sure they do. They trash the Constitution with Affirmnative Action and buy black votes. Ironic since it was the Republicans who pushed the civil rights bill through in 64.
Other great things Democrats have done for blacks must includes a welfare system that penalizes families for having a man working in the house. Creating a system that put three generations on the dole.
And don’t forget education. The best chance blacks have to create success on thier own merits is getting a decent education. Democrats have really held the teacher’s unions feet to the fire haven’t they. Never see any crappy teachers in a black neighborhood do you. Democrats fought tooth and nail for vouchers so parents could afford to rescue thier kids from failing school districts, oh wait, no that’s right, Democrats denied kids a way to get into a better school system because the teacher’s unions didn’t want to lose thier sugar tit. Another great thing Democrats did for blacks.
So Plantsmantx you go right ahead and vote for a Democrat. Everyone knows you’re going to anyhow. In fact Democrats count on it, no one expects blacks to vote any other way.
When someone has your vote all tied up how much leverage do you think you have?
Quaker…..
Typical race baiting on your part. When one has no reasoned response to a point(s) someone makes, jsut call it racist to stir up the masses.
Been in the lefty playbook for about 50 years now.
McCann…
Typical deflecting on your part. When one has no answer to a deflation of one’s biases, just cry “race card.”
See? Your formulaic b.s. works fine both ways.
The fact is, your little “bullet points” don’t apply equally to all segments of American society. Some people break a few of your rules and they spend a lifetime in poverty. Other people break some–even all–of the rules and live a life of privilege.
Go on. Try to explain it.
“Typical race baiting on your part.”
Typical race baiting? Hardly. There’s no doubt that being middle class and white can provide a cushion against bad life decisions that being poor and black does not. Being white and middle class provides a wider latitude for fucking up. I mean, seriously, what the hell do you think college is all about? I’ve violated at least three of the things on that list and while I haven’t committed a felony, in my twenties I spent my time in the back of a police car and overnight in jail. I came out the other end of a decade of fucking around and fucking up still middle class with a job I absolutely love (working for a non-profit arts organization) and a life of relative comfort. I am often grateful for getting through those years but I’d be kidding myself if I thought the class and race i started out as didn’t have something to do with my ability to do so.
Would any of the conservatives argue against the idea that just being born an American gives one an automatic advantage over 90 percent of the world’s population? I doubt it. Why then are they outraged when some suggest that class and race might also be factors in determining the degree of challenges that one faces in life but also, more importantly, the latitude for failure one has?
And I might add, federal programs designed to mitigate the perniciousness of poverty are not antithetical to living by those rules, such as they are. Indeed, providing a safety net for the poorest members of society helps to provide a similar “latitude for failure” that being born middle class does. It means that if you do make mistakes, as we all do, you won’t have to go hungry or live on the streets. You have a chance to rebuild your life and start over.
But even if one lives exactly by those rules, there are also factors that are beyond people’s control. You might also have added
1. Don’t get sick unless you have good health insurance.
2. Don’t live in an area prone to hurricanes, floods, tornadoes or other major nature disasters.
3. Don’t use your high school degree to work in an industry facing overseas competition from low wage, uneducated workers.
4. Don’t live during a period of high gas prices and poor public transportation options.
etc. etc.
Yours are indeed good rules to live by if you want to have a happy, self-sufficient life. But no one is ever entirely self-sufficient and where there aren’t well off or wealthy parents to bail one out, help has to come from somewhere. Right?
fafaroo, the “rules” are better called “guidelines,” and are NOT guaranteed to work — only to improve your chances of doing well in life. I’ve done damned well at keeping six of the seven (”living within my means” is the one that gets me), and I still struggle financially.
The reason they’re not guaranteed? Because there’s only one guarantee in life: as Jim Morrison put it, “no one here gets out alive.”
J.
They aren’t guaranteed to work? But McCann wrote “Do these things, and you will not be poor.” As in, you will not be poor. That sounds like a guarantee of effectiveness!
At any rate, thanks for explaining to me what I already said. Of course, they aren’t guaranteed to work. That’s why even people who follow all of the rules often find themselves having to fall back into whatever safety net they have in their lives. My entire point, and quaker’s point as well i think, is that more often than not, middle class to well off whites have a stronger social and economic safety net in place than many poor people of any color. Indeed, their safety net is so much stronger it can actually tolerate contrary behavior and still set a person back on course.
The Right Angle’s D.R. Tucker is concerned for Urban Americans?
Urban America’s overwhelming support could help make Obama the next President of the United States… urban America will get nothing…and urban America won’t even realize it.
Obama will receive unprecedented support from urban America: these voters have been led to believe that Obama is the heir to the legacy of Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, Nelson Mandela, Frederick Douglass, Harriet Tubman and other such leaders.
Did Tucker just include Malcolm X an Nelson Mandela as a great leaders?
Then maybe Obama can give something to all Americans including urban Americans GET NELSON MANDELA OFF THE US TERRORIST LIST along with the other South Africans of the ANC party who opposed apartheid—- unlike the present administration (Dick Cheney the real commander-in-chief) who supported apartheid and made a vow to never let Nelson Mandela see the light of day and remain on Robbins Island for the rest of his life (http://dir.salon.com/story/news/col/cona/2000/08/01/south_africa/).
Then maybe Madam Secretary of State,Condoleezza Rice, won’t have to be embarrassed anymore (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2008-04-30-watchlist_N.htm).
Tucker’s self-service insincere concern for urban Americans is just an opportunity to call Obama and his black followers “stupid black idiots” and create “white fear.” The Right Angle – is FEAR.
Is the “Right” in “the Right Angle” is white because it supports white supremacy?
fafaroo said…..
“My entire point, and quaker’s point as well i think, is that more often than not, middle class to well off whites have a stronger social and economic safety net in place than many poor people of any color. Indeed, their safety net is so much stronger it can actually tolerate contrary behavior and still set a person back on course”
Now, dare I say it, “to each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.”
Basically, it sounds like there’s some resentment towards white kids that drop out of high school, have felony records, abuse drugs, and yet are still…….wealthy? Hell, I’d be jealous of those people too…..if I knew any.
What an awesome country you live in, Mr. McCann. Where you live there are absolutely no institutional barriers that make life harder for some races but not the dominant race?
I bet that green sky is also awesome at sunrise.
j mccannn: Hell, I’d be jealous of those people too…..if I knew any.
And I suspect you’d be more understanding of poor urban folks, too. if you knew any.
But don’t let that lack of familiarity stop you from proclaiming with certainty that you know exactly what the cause of their problems are.
Terrorist fist jab to Sean.
Amd when those same inner city Negroes supported Bobby Kennedy, George McGovern, and Bill Clinton, they were…?
Jmccann, I shouldn’t have called you an asshole. That was wrong and uncivil. I apologise. But, it’s true. Sorry.
“Now, dare I say it, ‘to each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.’”
Yeah, McCann but ability isn’t the only thing that determines our lot in life, is it? For instance, someone might have the ability to work today but tomorrow a catastrophic accident could impair that ability. Someone else might have the ability to work in an industry that closes down and ships its work overseas. Is it such a horrible thing to provide assistance to these people, each according to his or her need, be it medical care or retraining?
As for this:
Basically, it sounds like there’s some resentment towards white kids that drop out of high school, have felony records, abuse drugs, and yet are still…….wealthy? Hell, I’d be jealous of those people too…..if I knew any.
All I can say is that having grown up middle class southern california and later attending USC, I know more than my share of rich white fuck ups who have, as they say, failed up thanks less to their abilities than their connections and family wealth.
Need I point out our current president, a rich white guy who, pretty much by his own admission, was a total failure, both professionally and personally, including substance abuse problems, who didn’t really get his act together until he was in his late 40s.
I don’t have any resentment toward these kinds of folks, maybe I would if I really gave a shit about being rich. I don’t. But you’re kidding yourself if you think that class and race don’t play a part in how well one is able to ride out the results of bad decisions or fate.
Terrorist fist jab to Sean.
Score!
Sean said ”
j mccannn: Hell, I’d be jealous of those people too…..if I knew any.
And I suspect you’d be more understanding of poor urban folks, too. if you knew any.
But don’t let that lack of familiarity stop you from proclaiming with certainty that you know exactly what the cause of their problems are.”
And again, if you look those few simple things a person of any race can do that I listed that can generally (yes, there are exceptions) greatly eliminate the odds of someone ending up dirt poor, I’d like for someone to tell me where I’m wrong.
And quaker said…
“What an awesome country you live in, Mr. McCann. Where you live there are absolutely no institutional barriers that make life harder for some races but not the dominant race?”
I, as well as many others, feel that far too many of these “barriers” you constantly whine about are self-inflicted. Like it or not, admit it or not, there’s an anti-intellectual culture among too many “urban” youths in this counry, as well as anti-social behavior that contributes to this problem. You can shovel all the money you want, create all the programs you want, and make all the excuses you want, but until there is a comprehensive change culturally away from these self-destructive behaviors that contribute to the large percentage of the cases in which you speak of, nothing will change. You’d think people would have figured this out after half a century.
And fafroo said….
“All I can say is that having grown up middle class southern california and later attending USC, I know more than my share of rich white fuck ups who have, as they say, failed up thanks less to their abilities than their connections and family wealth.”
And this would be the resentment I spoke of. I ask you this, why do you really even care if someone fails up? How does it affect you negatively? It could be worse, they could fail down. Think about it. Families have, do, and always will share their wealth with their children. It’s human. Do you propose something different? Should inheritances not be passed from generation to generation? What?
fafaroo again…
“Need I point out our current president, a rich white guy who, pretty much by his own admission, was a total failure, both professionally and personally, including substance abuse problems, who didn’t really get his act together until he was in his late 40s.”
Sorry, I just can’t hate or be angry with someone that took advantage of opportunites presented to them. Is this fair that some have these advantages…..no. Reality check here, but life isn’t fair, never has been, never will be totally fair. But again, I ask you how someone failing up generally has a negative affect on your life, other than exposing some infantile jealousy issues that are buried beneath the surface.
and finally, fafaroo….
“But you’re kidding yourself if you think that class and race don’t play a part in how well one is able to ride out the results of bad decisions or fate.”
Class far more so than race. But I’d like to know what your proposal to even things out. Should we give free passes for dumb decisions to people who screw up based on their income and race? Harsher penalties for rich kids? What do you want?
Anyways, class and race are only barriers if you let them be. I’m a strong believer in the self-fulfilling prophecy. And frankly, anyone blaming white racism for their failures in the year 2008 is a sad, sad person. These “urban” areas you’re talking about hardly have a white person in them, many are largely ran by blacks and almost always have democrats running the show. (New Orleans, Detroit, for example) It’s kinda hard to shift blame to conservatives and/or middle class whites that a) aren’t even there, and b) have no bearing on the officials elected. Perhaps people should start trying something else instead of this pathetic and tired blame game. Obviously, it’s not working out in these areas.
And think about this – Ray Nagin got re-elected too. That ought to tell you something about the mindset of the people of New Orleans. That city is the shining example of the government/nanny-state falling flat on it’s face. And you can probably go to every large urban area in this country and find the exact same thing to a degree, and also the same mindset from the constituents too.
Look, the bottom line is, no one forces anyone to drop out of school, talk like a moron, commit crimes, have kids they can’t afford, abuse drugs, and spend wastefully. Don’t care what race you are or what class you were born into. These are all personal choices. Some are fortunate enough to be able to gamble a bit with these behaviors, others aren’t. And if you can’t afford to, don’t do it. And for the record, growing up about as middle class as middle class can be, (actually, maybe lower-middle for a bit) I’ve seen many a white suburbanite kids fail down.
Anyways, nice chatting. I needed a good exchange of ideas. Been bored lately.
Goodnightandgoodluck
Olbermann sucks.
j mccannn: And again, if you look those few simple things a person of any race can do that I listed that can generally (yes, there are exceptions) greatly eliminate the odds of someone ending up dirt poor, I’d like for someone to tell me where I’m wrong.
Well, so far you haven’t said anything to suggest that you actually know any of the folks you seem to be speaking so authoritatively about. So lets get some vital stats here. Are you poor, middle class, well off? What is your ethnic background? What circumstances were you born into and what benefits did that provide to you? Normally I wouldn’t ask, but your attitude comes off as the wisdom of one who hasn’t experienced first hand what they claim to know so well.
why do you really even care if someone fails up? How does it affect you negatively?
You appear to advocate for a meritocracy. Where those who work and try are rewarded with improved circumstances. So anyone who fails upwards works against that. No, seriously. THINK about this. Picture the hard working, law abiding, person who has followed your seven rules. Then see them denied a chance they have “earned” because the job goes instead to the boss’s nephew who never worked a day in his life, paid others to complete his homework assignments and graduated because Dad made a nice contribution to the school.
A particularly extreme example, yes. But it has been know to happen. And happens far more frequently where the job goes to the less qualified white guy. Is that the black guy’s fault for not working harder?
Reality check here, but life isn’t fair, never has been, never will be totally fair.
No, it isn’t. But that doesn’t mean we should use that as an excuse to not try to make it a bit more fair. “Life sucks, get used to it.” is a cop out. An excuse offered by those who either have been treated unfairly and are bitter or, more far more often, by those who have had the advantages and don’t want to give anything up.
fafaroo: But you’re kidding yourself if you think that class and race don’t play a part in how well one is able to ride out the results of bad decisions or fate.
j mccannn: Class far more so than race.
Which ignores completely the fact that for all of the history of the United States race has been a major factor in determining class.
And frankly, anyone blaming white racism for their failures in the year 2008 is a sad, sad person. These “urban” areas you’re talking about hardly have a white person in them,
Again, completely ignoring the historical factors that have lead to that situation. I’m not saying we need to go back and somehow make restitution for all the sins of the past 300 or more years to the current population. But to ignore the historical FACTS (open discrimination, fewer opportunities, less time in which to build up those inheritances which you seem to like) that have led to the current situations is at least intellectually dishonest. The playing field is not level. The two sides (if we have to make it an A vs B situation) are not starting from the same place.
j, you have some reasonable points and there are a lot of examples of people who have made a lot of themselves from very humble beginnings. There are similarly examples of people who do not take advantage of the opportunities they have. But to suggest that the game isn’t stacked against those of lower means and that many who WOULD work their way out of just cannot is either intentionally dishonest or willfully ignorant.
Look, the bottom line is, no one forces anyone to drop out of school, talk like a moron, commit crimes, have kids they can’t afford, abuse drugs, and spend wastefully.
When the school receives far, far fewer funds than others, when the gangs make surviving school a questionable proposition at best, when the only decent paying job is far enough away that much of the paycheck is taken up just getting to work, these are hurdles that make it all but impossible to succeed.
What do you say to the person who follows your seven rules, works hard and truly, truly wants to get out but can’t because they are surrounded by those who, through active opposition or just bureaucratic apathy, block the way?
“Sorry you’re being pulled under, but you should try harder to get on the boat. Don’t expect me to throw you a life preserver. I have to work on my tan.”?
Like it or not, admit it or not, there’s an anti-intellectual culture among too many “urban” youths in this counry, as well as anti-social behavior that contributes to this problem.
Riiiiiight because the white suburbs are just teaming with intellectually curious, extremely well-behaved teenagers. The fact that you insist on singling out blacks as stupid and violent (let’s stop with the euphimisms, shall we?) while leaving out the fact the very same problems occur in white suburbs across the country is indicative of someone with an ax to grind. You yourself write:
I’ve seen many a white suburbanite kids fail down.
So have I. But where I see it as evidence that no race or class has a monopoly on wasted lives, who do you choose to focus your anger on? At the same time, as I’ve said, I’ve a lot of middle class kids — including me – right themselves precisely because of the cushion that their class and race gave them. Others? Not as easy.
Conservatives have fundamentally distorted progressive ideas and policies into a philosophy that holds no individual responsible for their own lives and thinks some people should be paid cash money just because life is unfair to them. That’s a bullshit caricature that most conservatives find it easier to attack than reality.
The reality of it is, as i see it, progressives don’t think life should be fair, they think that everyone should have an equal opportunity to improve themselves if they choose to but that no one should be allowed to live in squalor and hunger no matter their abilities or personal failings. That isn’t fairness, it’s simple humanity. It’s a basic cornerstone of a just civilization. Or at least it should be. Conservatives get pissed off at the poor because they think it have it easy, as if poverty is some kind of permanent, fun-filled vacation from life. It ain’t by a long shot and it’s a tough thing to break out of even for the most motivated and able.
j mccannn: Look, the bottom line is, no one forces anyone to drop out of school, talk like a moron, commit crimes, have kids they can’t afford, abuse drugs, and spend wastefully.
I keep trying to thing of a short way to sum it up, and I think that finally made it clear to me. It’s blaming the victim.
Now, I agree some, even far to many, are quick to play the victim game. But if you want folks to not talk like morons, not have kids they can’t afford, not spend wastefully you have to provide them with some way to learn how to do that.
It’s like refusing the tell kids about birth control and then blaming them for not knowing that “you can’t get pregnant if she’s on top” isn’t true.
Saying “learn to talk well, learn to make a budget but don’t expect anyone to show you how” won’t work.
“You appear to advocate for a meritocracy. Where those who work and try are rewarded with improved circumstances. So anyone who fails upwards works against that. No, seriously. THINK about this. Picture the hard working, law abiding, person who has followed your seven rules. Then see them denied a chance they have “earned” because the job goes instead to the boss’s nephew who never worked a day in his life, paid others to complete his homework assignments and graduated because Dad made a nice contribution to the school.”
You appear to advocate for something other than a meritocracy. Where those who work and try and actually achieve are penalized. No, seriously. THINK about this. Picture the hard working, law abiding person who has a better score and a superior skill set being denied a job or a spot in school because the job or the spot goes to someone else less qualified based on the color of thier skin.
But again, I ask you how someone failing up generally has a negative affect on your life,
Are you freaking kidding me? George W. Bush.
“I, as well as many others, feel that far too many of these “barriers” you constantly whine about are self-inflicted.”
Nice try at a deflection, but I caught you. I said institutional barriers. If you’re claiming that racial bias in law enforcement, education, employment, and housing are all “self-inflicted,” then you have ‘fessed up to my accusation–you imagine a world where institutional barriers don’t exist.
I recommend you get out more.
SDM: Picture the hard working, law abiding, person who has followed your seven rules. Then see them denied a chance they have “earned” because the job goes instead to the boss’s nephew who never worked a day in his life, paid others to complete his homework assignments and graduated because Dad made a nice contribution to the school.
Amused observer: You appear to advocate for something other than a meritocracy. Where those who work and try and actually achieve are penalized. No, seriously. THINK about this. Picture the hard working, law abiding person who has a better score and a superior skill set being denied a job or a spot in school because the job or the spot goes to someone else less qualified based on the color of thier skin.
Say whaaatt??
I said absolutely nothing of the sort. I objected to the situation where the hard working person loses out to nepotism (to short-hand describe it), and you’re interpreting that as my saying I advocate something “Where those who work and try and actually achieve are penalized.”??
I don’t think you could get closer to 180 degrees bass ackwards.
Amused observer is merely projecting. Again.
I think we would all favor a meritocracy, and I think, by and large, that is what we have. But we can’t say that institutional barriers don’t exist because they clearly do. In such cases, the bars set by the meritocracy have to be fluid enough to balance out the exclusionary tactics of those institutions.
Sean, if you indeed do advocate a meritocracy then I stand corrected.
Duros, Projecting? I don’t think so. Generally speaking the bars set by merit are blind. In my working lifetime the only legal exclusionary institutional tactics that have been applied have been blatent discrimination towards white and asian males.
“In my working lifetime the only legal exclusionary institutional tactics that have been applied have been blatent discrimination towards white and asian males.”
Um, do you wanna rethink this one a little, AO? Legal exclusionary institutional tactics? Please point me to a sector of our society where whites have been legally “excluded.” College? Nope. The corporate world? Nope. The medical profession? Nope. The law profession? Nope. Education? Service sector? Industrial work? Nope, nope and nope. Now tell which one of these sector’s work forces was shaped by decades on unstated, unspoken but still illegal discrimination against non-whites. Try all of them.
Fafaroo,
Are you kidding? RAOTFLMAO! You are correct in your assertation that whites and asians have not been legally excluded from participating at all in any of the various endeavors you list. I speak merely of added points, lower acceptable qualifications, set aside contracts, and quotas.
Why do you think Ward Connerly is so unpopular?
“I speak merely of added points, lower acceptable qualifications, set aside contracts, and quotas.”
Oh so you mean the stuff designed to counterbalance the decades of unstated, unspoken but still illegal discrimination against non-whites.
Of course you make it sound as if affirmative action is a process by which unqualified people are always given positions and opportunities over qualified people. That, my friends, is not really how it works. Affirmative action is really intended to influence the choice between two equally qualified people such that its weighted toward the minority candidate.
I am not surprised that you choose to emphasize what you emphasize.
While Im thinking about it, what I’ve always found amusing about affirmative action opponents is that they tend to also hold j mccann’s view of personal success: If you’re poor and black it just means you have to work harder than everyone to succeed and it’s your own fault if you don’t.
But what of an average white kid who doesn’t get into the college of his choice? Well, there’s no end of whining and complaining from the j mccann’s about how the system is rigged and unfair.
Really?
Maybe that white kid should have worked harder to set himself apart and above among the pool applicants. Oh well, we can’t have that. If you’re already white and well off you shouldn’t have to work harder than others to succeed! Sheesh.
Whites and Asian males? I fail to see the connection.
Amused Observer: In my working lifetime the only legal exclusionary institutional tactics that have been applied have been blatent discrimination towards white and asian males.
Amused Observer: You are correct in your assertation that whites and asians have not been legally excluded from participating at all…I speak merely of added points, lower acceptable qualifications, set aside contracts, and quotas.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone spin completely around so fast.
fafaroo….
“But what of an average white kid who doesn’t get into the college of his choice? Well, there’s no end of whining and complaining from the j mccann’s about how the system is rigged and unfair.”
Can you tell me what government policies actively and intentionally discriminate against those that are not white or asian men? That’s my only beef with AA. And it’s mostly in the public sector that it ticks me off. I don’t care who private companies hire and for what reasons. Ultimately, it’s their a** as a company that’s on the line anyways.
fafaroo again..
“Affirmative action is really intended to influence the choice between two equally qualified people such that its weighted toward the minority candidate.”
Exactly. State sanctioned racism.
Sounds like your saying that my formerly lower-middle class, then lower class, now upper middle class white rear end is being held responsible for sins of the past that neither myself or any of my ancsestors had anything to do with. If that’s the case and that’s how you feel, then we’ll just agree to disagree, because you’re not going to change my mind, and vice versa. Have I ever been affected by AA? Not sure. But the idea of it is fundamentally hypocritical and has served to create resentment and anger among people like myself who have never wronged anyone, yet are told that it’s not ok to be racist/sexist, but that it’s ok for government policy to be racist/sexist toward us. Hopefully, this will make some sense to you and you can see where many are coming from now.
Not that I’m that worried. AA will be gone before long. It’s about run it’s course.
j mccannn: Sounds like your saying that my formerly lower-middle class, then lower class, now upper middle class white rear end is being held responsible for sins of the past that neither myself or any of my ancsestors had anything to do with.
As members of the society at the time (I’m assuming your family didn’t arrive on these shores more recently than, say, the Civil Rights Act of 1964) your ancestors almost certainly had something to do with, or at least were benefited by, the policies and laws in place at the time.
And your current position, particularly relative to the current starting position of those “poor” you feel so little for, is a result of those policies and laws. So whether there are currently any “government policies [which] actively and intentionally discriminate against those that are not white or asian men” on the books or not, the effects of those prior policies lingers.
The proper way to make up for that? I dunno. But where two equally qualified candidates are involved, deciding the tie in favor of the historically discriminated minority doesn’t seem too out of line to me.
Can you tell me what government policies actively and intentionally discriminate against those that are not white or asian men?
Can you? You brought it up.
Have I ever been affected by AA? Not sure.
Well, then, WTF do you care?
But the idea of it is fundamentally hypocritical and has served to create resentment and anger among people like myself who have never wronged anyone,
Can you at least try to identify with someone who has, historically and sometimes with government complicity, been wronged?
AO, ask your black friends (yes, I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt) to tell you about their experiences in job interviews. Ask them what it’s like to walk into a big department store. Ask them to tell you about their encounters with law enforcement.
Institutional barriers aren’t necessarily written into law. They can be a matter of custom, practice, or just the way the rules are applied.
Put it this way: Suppose you sent 1,000 young men into Times Square to walk around, 500 white and 500 black. At the end of a day or even a week, do you think the NYPD would stop and question the same percentage of both groups? If not, is the NYPD doing anything illegal–probably not. This is an institutional barrier to equal participation in society all the same.
Sean,
Spun around? I stand by my original statement that in my working life time the only legal discrimination that has occurred in the United States of America has happened to white and asian males with superior skillsets. Fafaroo doesn’t seem to quite have a grasp of the difference between discrimination and exclusion. Apparently neither do you.
Fafaroo,
What do you suppose equal protection means?
Amendment 14 – Citizenship Rights.
1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Do you think that means adding points to a test? Or accepting a lower score? Or a tiebreaker being the color of one’s skin? Or awarding a portion of a government contract to special americans based on thier ethnic identity?
Which part of equal protection don’t you get?
Quaker,
If you have a problem with the NYPD take it up with them. Don’t penalize me. But since you like setting up racial mathmatical equations why don’t you crunch the numbers on
crime and race? Are you going to find that 12% of the national population commits 12% of the violent crime?
Do you think that possibly the NYPD might be aware of some of those statistics? And while they are government workers who probably don’t really work as hard they might if they were in the private sector, stopping crime is thier business. If you were in the crimefighting business where would you concentrate your efforts if knocking back violent crime was your goal?