* I’m glad to see the party finally standing up to the Clintons. Florida and Michigan both get their delegates in with penalty, supported by Obama and opposed by the Clintons. The Clintons no longer control the party.
* Harold Ickes is clearly among the more odious of the Clinton goons. The way he threatened the entire party is just like the big money Clinton donors trying to tell the Speaker of the House what she can and cannot say.
* Clinton’s imported Jerry Springer crowd was truly odious. They are quite pathetic.
* Please, superdelegates, get off your asses. Sen. Obama is only about 65 delegates away from the new 2,118 number needed for the nomination.
* The main thing we learned from the Clinton arguments here is that they really care more about Sen. Clinton and her world rather than the Democratic party.
* The Clinton supporters:
Howard Dean may hope that the “healing will begin today,” but two blocks away from the northwest Washington Marriott where the DNC’s Rules and Bylaws Committee is meeting right now to try to figure out Florida and Michigan, the Hillary protesters are occupying an utterly alternate (and healing-free) universe: a universe in which one of the big lawn rally’s speakers yells that the Democratic Party no longer is in the business of “promoting equality and fairness for all”; in which a Hillary supporter with two poodles shouts, “Howard Dean is a leftist freak!”; in which a man exhibits a sign that reads “At least slaves were counted as 3/5ths a Citizen” and shows Dean whipping handcuffed people; and in which Larry Sinclair, the Minnesota man who took to YouTube to allege that Barack Obama had oral sex with him in the back of a limousine in 1999, is one of the belles of the ball.
* As one of my commenters points out, DNC member Don Fowler, who is a Clinton supporter, put party over candidate today and conducted himself with class. Harold Ickes could learn a thing or two thousand from him.
it’s time for team clinton to shut it down.
Even CNN, doing the math, thinks Obama needs no more than 24 superdelegates after Tuesday to close the deal. There should be a race to his column once the dam breaks.
It just dawned on me that Oliver will be attending the most historic, landmark convention in a century, or at least my lifetime. Lucky stiff.
Oliver:
You should mention Don Fowler(ex-DNC chair). He is a Hillary supporter(and also sits on the RBC with Ickes). He acted with total class today(unlike Ickes).
Does anybody know who, exactly, decided to hold the voting early in Michigan and Florida? It seems that the names of these authority figures should be posted in newspapers and online so that Democrats in these states can take their anger out on these people instead of Obama and the DNC.
I meant to say, “the Democratic party,” not the “DNC.”
Frankly I think the rules people should have seated half delegations with full votes rather than full delegations with half votes.
I can hear the argument that Clinton’s people will make on the way to Denver:
“Rules you are talking rules?
30 Years ago the rules said states could restrict abortion
64 years ago the Rules said that separate but equal was ok
89 years ago the rules said Women couldn’t’ vote
146 years ago the rules said that black people could be owned by other people.
And 219 years ago rules were agreed that blacks were 3/5ths of a person.
And you say we are going to count Florida and Michigan as half a person because the rules say so? Give me a break.”
I think this argument is twisting the facts but if the other method was used it would be gone.
I’m actually surprised that she hasn’t made the better argument she has:
“Superdelegates can say what they want but until the convention they don’t actually vote. As has been demonstrated by Sen McGovern superdelegates can change their mind, so until they actually vote I am going to do my best to court them.”
Now the reality is that baring an incredible gaffe or some weird twist Sen Obama is going to win this nomination but Clinton is not going away.
“it’s time for team clinton to shut it down.”
I concur. It’s been a tough fought primary, Clinton got really close, but it’s over and she needs to pack it in.
It’s obvious that she SHOULD pack it in- but she won’t. This whole seating FL & Michigan was a trap by the Clinton campaign. They knew that the RBC was going to give Obama some votes in Michigan, yet they were uncompromising in their position. Why? So they can keep the campaign going.
Clinton is going to keep it going to the DNC. Until then, she’s going to attack, attack, attack and fire up her supporters and pretty much blow up the party. She does not care what America’s best interests are- she only cares about herself. Anyone who has been supporting Clinton needs to take a step back and re-evaluate her/his position. She is bringing the “nuclear” option to the DNC. Even if Obama nets the superdelegates necessary for a majority, Clinton will not concede.
Let’s hope this does not hurt the general election, although at this point it undoubtedly will.
Such a shame.
Obama now needs just under 75% of the remaining pledged delegates, which will be practically impossible unless half of Clinton’s supporters don’t both to vote tomorrow and Tuesday.
Clinton needs close to 83% of the total remaining delegates to win, which is damn close to mathematically impossible.
On a side note, if Edwards delegates move over to Obama, he’s down to needing less than half of the remaining pledged delegates.
Hi,
I’m happy you’re all happy with today’s results, but let me explain that this lifetime liberal would not vote for Obama if a gun were forced to my brain.
So, take your narrow little constituency, which is “educated” whites, blacks young college go’ers…and try to win the Presidency.
You won’t.
Obama’s an empty suit.
Us “less than affluent” middle class voters will stick with McCain.
You screwed up the Democratic party when you decided to play games, Obama.
Bye now.
JK
JK,
What do you mean when you say that Obama “decided to play games?” Do you mean, not hand the nomination to Clinton on a platter, uncontested?
Your comments on Obama vs. Clinton have been extremely obnoxious. Why are you such a douchebag? Eh, it doesn’t matter. Enjoy having your team lose AGAIN this November, you stupid twat.
Bye now.
mambo
JK,
Please elaborate on the “Obama playing games statement”. If you’re talking about FL & Michigan, please remember that Hillary signed an agreement with Obama, John Edwards, et al. agreeing to not campaign nor seat the delegates of either state. If she was truly concerned about “making every vote count”, she would have protested the harsh penalty then. In essence, she is a colossal hypocrite.
However, Barack Obama is such a strong nominee that Hillary-bashing is not even necessary. He is inspiring, intelligent, and trying to bring together people that do not want to come together.
How you could vote for McCain- and essentially continue the Bush administration0 is beyond me. Hillary & Barack are actually very close on the issues, after all they are both Dems. McCain, who used to be a respectable, middle-of-the-road politician, is now George Bush Junior (or should I say Senior).
But I digress…
You’re hatred has blinded you from what is best for you. You claim to be “less than affluent”- do you not understand that your situation is the one BOTH Democratic candidates are trying to help? Conversely, the GOP has and will continues to pander to wealthy citizens, special interest groups, and large corporations.
Do not undermine your own interests because of your emotions.
And I can’t sign off on this post until I address a few more things in your post:
-”Educated” whites? Are you implying that we (I am white with a master’s degree) are not educated? Or that our educations are a farce?
-Obama is an “empty suit”- this is a man who correctly predicted the outcomes of the Iraq War (strengthening Al Qaeda, long occupation, high cost, etc.) while Hillary voted for it. However, that is merely one example of his intelligence and insight. I suggest you check out Oliver’s “The Truth About Barack Obama” link above.
-Obama’s “narrow little constituency” has given him the majority of the popular vote (surely you do not even give into Hillary’s “math). Plus, if the California primary took place today- most polls indicate that Obama would be the victor.
-You attempt to undermine “young college go’ers” when you refer to them as such. You seem to have contempt for those that have gone to college. Perhaps if the GOP helped those that are “less than affluent” pursue their goals of higher education, you would not feel this way.
In short, I realize I am likely wasting my time by trying to appeal to you with reason. However, I’ve found myself quite angry and disillusioned with many Hillary supporters right now; and if I’ve accomplished anything, I’ve at least blown off some steam.
JK:
Empty suit? I didn’t know that an empty suit could run a campaign like Obama did. Do you even have a clue what Obama overcame to win the nomination? Do you know that Hillary had over 100 SD’s in her pocket before any voting began?
Come on, people. We don’t need to stoop to this level of name-calling. JK speaks for him/herself with his/her comments. Calling JK a “stupid twat” isn’t going to help with the contention that Obama supporters aren’t sexist. There are some Obama supporters here who are feminists, ya know.
Tim,
Kudos. That’s better than I could’ve done.
Does anybody still wonder why the rightists have such a great track record for national elections? When was the last time anyone heard the phrase “Rudy McRomney”?
Clintons no longer control the party-this is all about.Hillary and Obama are in the light,but each one has in theyr back a lot of people who look to receive something for theyr support-job in administration,embassyes,etc.20 million in debt for Hillary campaign is nothing when you compare with possible reward.If Obama will win and he will be the president there is a chance that something can be different.No guaranty.But if Hillary will be the nominee-she or McCain doesn’t matter everything will be the same next year
Vanessa,
I didn’t mean anything sexist with my statement… substitute “asshole” or any number of other insults there that don’t have a sexist connotation. I also thought (think) that JK is a man. I’m sorry, you’re right, probably not my finest comment.
I still maintain that JK is a complete horse’s ass. I don’t think that insults are a bad thing here, because JK has consistently shown himself to be incapable or unwilling to debate in a reasonable fashion. If people want to have a reasonable conversation about the merits of the presidential candidates, and be taken seriously, and be respected, then they cannot write patent idiocies up for the whole world to see.
Mambochicken23,
I sympathize with you and understand where you’re coming from. JK is not my favorite person either.
It’s possible that I’m a little sensitive. I have read so many derogatory remarks about Clinton (also not my favorite person) that focus on her gender (irrelevant, in my opinion) rather than her horrible lack of leadership and faulty morals. After hearing cunt, whore, twat and bitch thrown about so often it’s becomes easy to take offense.
Thanks, Vanessa!
Ignore the trolls.
Tim,
Since you obviously took the most time to respond, I’ll try to reply to you directly. Frankly, I could care less what the rest of you think of me–your responses are largely the reason why the Democratic party willl lose people like me this time around.
1.) To paraprhase Paul Begala…Obama’s core constituency consists entirely of college educated whites, students, blacks, and aother assorted liberal fruitcakes.
If you’re relying on students and blacks turning out in record numbers, and making the difference this November, think again. Just ask John Kerry, or Al Gore on that one. Obama has Mike Dukakis written all over him.
Obama himself, and his “associates” have said enough, and done quite enough to piss off hard-working working class voters, like myself, who happen to be white. Do people recall his elitist comments in PA about people turning to religion, guns, etc? Heck, I don’t even own a gun, and the last time I went to church was when someone died, but that comment still pissed me off because it displayed a true lack of appreciation for what THOSE voters have historically brought to the table. They show up to vote, in other words.
2.) On Obama being an empty suit. This has been clearly demonstrated by a few things.
One, was his dismal performances against Hillary Clinton in the debates. Particularly the last few. There’s no substance there, just a heaping doses of fuzzy idealism. I realize you all get goose pimples when you hear the man talk, but when it comes time to make the hard decisions, simply “hoping” it were true won’t get it done.
The other, is his lack of any meaningful record in the Senate. I took some time to take a look at what he’s sponsored, and there just isn’t much there that would lead me to believe that he’s either ready, or capable of being Presient of the free world.
A few other thoughts…
On his questionable associations. They won’t go away, and they shouldn’t. We read today that he’s “resigned” from his church. Too little, too late, I’m afraid. Damage done.
Gallup released a poll (I believe it was this week)that showed that if Obama wins the nomination, one-third of us Clinton voters are going for the old guy. I heard (but can’t find reference to) another Gallup poll released this week that showed that in many of the key battleground states, Clinton fares CONSIDERABLY better than Obama vs. McCain.
On a personal level. 4 years ago I thought Obama was the guy. Now, I simply don’t trust, or like him much. Not because of what he stands for as a Democrat (we all want the war to end) BUT because of his actions as a candidate. More specifically, playing the delegate game and in the process, largely writing off (or flipping the bird at) the core backbone of this party.
As for you OW, stop emailing me notes about “scary black preachers,” OK? You’re kind of a weird dude…but we’ll give you credit for keeping at it for so long.
JK
JK (along with Clinton and the rest of her supporters) want to take the prize away from Obama based on a few poll???
Look, the time to campaign and ACTUALLY WIN THE FUCKING PRIMARY IS OVER.
IT’S OVER. GET OVER IT. OBAMA HAS/IS GONNA WIN THE PRIMARY. HE BEAT CLINTON FAIR AND SQUARE. DEAL WITH IT.
Comparing OBAMA to DUKAKIS is a straw hat.
straw hat=straw man…sorry for my error
A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position.[1] To “set up a straw man” or “set up a straw man argument” is to describe a position that superficially resembles an opponent’s actual view but is easier to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent (for example, deliberately overstating the opponent’s position).[1] A straw man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it carries little or no real evidential weight, because the opponent’s actual argument has not been refuted.[2]
Its name is derived from the practice of using straw men in combat training.[citation needed] In such training, a scarecrow is made in the image of the enemy with the single intent of attacking it[3].[not in citation given] Such a target is, naturally, immobile and does not fight back, and is not as realistic to test skill against compared to a live and armed opponent. It is occasionally called a straw dog fallacy, scarecrow argument, or wooden dummy argument.[citation needed]
i haven’t had my full fix of coffee yet this morning
Tk wrote:
“More specifically, playing the delegate game and in the process, largely writing off (or flipping the bird at) the core backbone of this party.”
So what you are saying, TK, is that you are mad because Obama is a far more competent politician, leader, and campaigner than Clinton. He was aware of what it took to win, and did, while Clinton tried to just waltz in.
Bye bye. This middle class white guy supports Obama.
Oh, and I own a gun and go to church and love beer.
JK,
There are PLENTY of white, middle-class and working-class men and women who support Obama. I know dozens myself. I think you’re fooling yourself.
Let me just pop in with this: If you’re going to vote for McCain just because your Precious isn’t going to get the nomination after running one of the most destructive campaigns since Sherman’s March to the Sea, then fine. Go. Take your ball and run home crying. If, by voting for McCain, you’re going to support more of this murderous ineptitude Bush calls the “War on Terror,” fine. Go home. See you next Memorial Day. Be sure and put a sign out in the yard saying “Bring Them Home Now.” Or you could sign a petition. Or, you know, you could wake the fuck up and vote for Obama and get this nonsense over right away.
Tim: Until then, she’s going to attack, attack, attack and fire up her supporters and pretty much blow up the party. She does not care what America’s best interests are- she only cares about herself.
In essence, she is a colossal hypocrite.
Which is why I find I can’t really vote for her should she get the nomination. Not because out of any bitterness or spite over her beating Obama, the petulant kindergarten-level reason given by far, far too many on both sides.
But because her own behavior throughout this campaign, once things started going against her, have demonstrated time and time again a fundamental lack of judgment, significant unawareness of her own hypocrisy and, most of all, a profound lack of interest in the greater good.
Please. Don’t feed the trolls. I emailed the person in question offline because I wanted to ask him to move along and quit posting here. His fear of scary black preachers is ridiculous and not worth spending time on.
her own behavior throughout this campaign, once things started going against her, have demonstrated time and time again a fundamental lack of judgment, significant unawareness of her own hypocrisy and, most of all, a profound lack of interest in the greater good.
All qualities that don’t spell “good President.”
All qualities that don’t spell “good President.”
Exactly. And I can’t bring myself not to vote for someone who doesn’t look like they would be a good president. So, she’s lost my vote (Yes, she had it originally but… She. Lost It.).
Basically JK is saying he won’t vote for Obama because without his vote Obama can’t win. That’s amazingly stupid and not worth discussing.
In other words, JK is a troll, stop feeding them.
Even I don’t get into arguments with this person, why they fuck are you guys?
Not me, man. Anyone who takes the word of Gallup as gospel ain’t got no cred around here.
Does anybody know who, exactly, decided to hold the voting early in Michigan and Florida? It seems that the names of these authority figures should be posted in newspapers and online so that Democrats in these states can take their anger out on these people instead of Obama and the DNC.