Why spend any time and energy on them at all the next time? That’s a large part of what I don’t get. You make such a big thing about how you always take the time and energy to present what you see as a reasonable and supported argument and, if the other side fails to do similar, you spend your energy on insulting them. Which is less reasonable, the person who doesn’t put up a reasonable position or the person who wastes energy on them once it’s clear they aren’t worth debating?

It’s a Pyrrhic victory.

“CS, if the only purpose of the argument is the argument itself, then the whole enterprise strikes me as a waste of time. I, personally, relish when somebody in one of these tete-a-tete’s stops responding; to me it means they no longer have any idea how to argue against the intellectually honest position I presented.”

Here’s my side of it…

If I take the time and energy to craft the argument, you should respond with the same time and energy. If not, then next time I’m going to spend less time and energy debating that person and more energy insulting them, because that’s what they have proven they are worth.

You mean that isn’t a victory to you?

CS, if the only purpose of the argument is the argument itself, then the whole enterprise strikes me as a waste of time. I, personally, relish when somebody in one of these tete-a-tete’s stops responding; to me it means they no longer have any idea how to argue against the intellectually honest position I presented.

Or, y’know, it means they stuck their fingers in their ears, pouted like a second grader, and took their ball and went home. Either way, point to me.

I admit that I’d be infinitely more satisfied to hear them say “Okay, you got me there. I’ll reconsider this position I’ve been taking.” But let’s be realistic; it’s a rare online debater that is going to change their mind about their pet argument.

Sean: “And thereby hangs the place we’ll have to agree to disagree.”

Fine.

But as a recent example, I debated Haplo9 about the difference between a racist and a non-racist attack. I never insulted him, I never called him sub-human, I presented evidence, counter-evidence, and even said what I would require of him to support his case.

In the end, he ran. I took the time and energy to debate him in an intellectually honest way, and he ran, thereby wasting my time.

What level of respect should I show him next time? More? Less? I’m thinking less.

And thereby hangs the place we’ll have to agree to disagree.

Wow. How incredibly childish.

I don’t treat anyone here with any less respect than they deserve, and it seems to me that you are on a crusade to prove you don’t deserve any respect.

Don’t bother responding to my posts unless you want to deal with all of it. If you ignore my point and go for an insult, it just shows you are no desire to debate in an intellectually honest way and are nothing more than a troll.

No go ahead, pretend you are better than me. ‘But, but, but I never used the word ‘fuck’ like you do. When I insult someone one, I’m not as direct as you are. So I’m better than you.’

Interesting stuff, Scott. But about five years too late. How many times are we going to have a key Bush administration official try to wash the blood off his hands — and add a chunk of change to his bank account — by writing a come-clean book years after the fact instead of when it actually could have made a difference?

Couldn’t have described you better. Thanks!

Sean: No, I wouldn’t. My comment was clearly sarcastic and hyperbolic and I don’t see anything wrong when folks do that.”

I think June disagrees with you on both points.

Sean: “But it’s a moot point because you wouldn’t say something like that. You would say something like ‘You’re a fucking idiot who doesn’t deserve the right to vote because you aren’t even human.’”

Style Over Substance with a hint of hypocrisy.

I’m actually grateful that it struck someone that way.

I understand her need to vent and clearly her comments are going along in a stream-of-consciousness kind of way, but even so some of her statements were so outlandish and making excuses for McClellan that I was put off enough to respond as I did.

But, yeah, it was not the way I usually do things. Which was partly why I already apologized for being so hard on her (and am refraining from responding to her more recent comments about me.)

Then you have to use the sarcasm and Hyperbole tags.

June, I see your point, but let’s try to stay calm and remember that Washington isn’t always a Len Deighton novel.

No, I wouldn’t. My comment was clearly sarcastic and hyperbolic and I don’t see anything wrong when folks do that. But it’s a moot point because you wouldn’t say something like that. You would say something like “You’re a fucking idiot who doesn’t deserve the right to vote because you aren’t even human.”

If I said something like that, you would start attacking me.

I was gonna say, Sean. Calling June_Rachael stupid seemed a bit out of character for you.

About courage, how can you assume I gave in to being bullied about my beliefs or politics. I have relentlessly bashed Bush and this war that was started on my birthday (more salt in an open wound). I bashed Bush and his administration so much that my friend’s two and a half year old daughter came over to me when I entered her house for a family gathering, not remembering my name and said “BUSH!” We laughed so much that when there was a loll in conversation we would shout “Bush” and we could not stop laughing (It was so funny – you would have had to been there). She is almost six years old now and when she hasn’t seen me for a while she says “Bush,” her mom laughs and calls me on the phone.
About courage these days, It takes courage to be Dunkin Donuts, or maybe not. I can’t believe that Dunkin Donuts couldn’t stand up and say “For God Sakes, it’s just a black and white scarf – not a symbol to be a terrorist sympathizer by Rachael Ray. Does Dunkin’ Donuts really think its customers could mistake Rachael Ray for a terrorist sympathizer? Dunkin Donuts canceled the ad in which Rachael Ray wears a scarf that looks like a headdress worn by Arab men, that Fox News’ Michelle Malkin says has come to symbolize murderous Palestinian jihad and she feels Americans should boycott Dunkin Donuts.
My final last words would have been a quote from the Godfather movie – Only because I love to quote Michael. When speaking to his wife who told him that Presidents don’t have men murdered – he response was classic. I would have quoted him but I know you think I’m so stupid that I would confuse real life from fiction so I am finally tired and silent on this issue.

–|PW|–

If I said something like that, you would start attacking me.

Or don’t resign and talk. Just talk when it can make a difference.

So we should give in to bullies because thay act like bullies and call us names?

I am far too stupid to shut up when someone calls me stupid, in fact I become quite talkative and fired up instead.

Oh, well, that’s better then. And at least this time when you get talkative you’re making more sense.

Sean, I am hurt that you called me stupid on this forum. I can understand it if you felt my comments were naïve and simplistic … I don’t know how this forum works

OK, sorry if I seemed particularly hard on you if you’re new here. But what you originally posted was patently ridiculous. Folks here aree actually pretty accepting of differing views, as long as they are well stated. ANd when they are not, you can expect to get called on it.

I think Scott McClellan was afraid but he could have been just a disgruntled fired employee, regardless, I am so happy that he found enough courage to come forward for whatever reason he did to criticize this current administration and shake that tree

I don’t think it was courage at all. Courage would ahve been coming forward when he was still working there and found out things were rotten in Denmark. Courage would be talking to reporters to let the people know what he does and talking to law enforcement to see if he has any information that punishable crimes were committed. Being paid considerable money to write a book and then leaking bits and pieces to drum up interest and increase sales is not courage.