Jeralyn of Talkleft has once again busted out the calculations on the cocktail napkin to prove once again that Clinton is the more electable candidate. Ditto for this poster on Taylor Marsh’s site (I guess they’ve quit attacking Sen. Kennedy for the moment). I wonder: are these sites going to play this stupid game right up until November? Are we going to be swearing in the next president while they’ve found yet another formulation proving in their minds that Clinton is the more “electable” candidate?
To begin with, the Democratic primary is about one thing and one thing only: getting delegates. That was true in December of last year, it was true on Super Tuesday, and it is true now. As we all know while it helps to win the popular vote, in presidential elections, what counts is electoral votes. Sure, some of us may think that popular vote is a better number, but we must deal with the rules as how they exist on planet earth. And until that changes: the rules are the rules.
Putting that aside, I’m sure many of you remember that in 2004 the Democratic party front-loaded its selection process to get the more “electable” candidate. On paper John Kerry was that electable person, and while I believe he’s a good man and would have made a good president, it was clear that when it comes down to presidential politics John Kerry wasn’t electable enough. If we used some of the metrics the Clinton supporters are pushing, we would have just handed the nomination to Clinton before any voting began – remember, she once lead Obama by double digits nationally and trounced him in places like South Carolina.
That is, until people actually voted.
The Clinton supporters right now are like that sports fan (like me) who tells you the seven thousand ways his team could have won the game, when the game is over for their team.
I’m sorry Veruca Salt, you can’t have the party.
The only reason why Clinton seems more electable right now is because too many of her supporters would rather kill the Democratic party than support the person who won the nomination. Hopefully when it is finally over, and even she realizes it, she will campaign for Obama and help convince those people that voting for McCain because Clinton didn’t win the nomination is just plain stupid.
Whenever I see these arguments (i.e.: when you look at these 5 important states blah blah blah), I just refer people to Poblano. True, Clinton’s numbers look a bit better now than they have in quite a while, but Obama is the winner of the Democratic primary process and he will win the White House.
The only reason HRC polls at or above Obama in national polls is that bitter (can I use that word – promise I won’t say assassination) Hillites like those at Taylor Marsh and TalkLeft are saying they’ll vote for McCain in November, while Obama backers are not. Most of them will come around (well, maybe not the Marshites, but then I’m convinced that half of them are freepers in disguise) before November and Obama will win by ~10%. Don’t get me wrong, I think HRC would’ve won, too, but Obama has the capability for a much better margin and much larger coattails in the House and Senate..
“well, maybe not the Marshites, but then I’m convinced that half of them are freepers in disguise) ”
Bingo. That they can’t even see this lame psych-ops would be funny if it wasn’t so pathetic.
What does it take for a non-Clinton to win the nomination?
Obviously more than winning according to the rules
You guys are jokes, Obama cannot and will not win any general election because HE has made himself unelectable.
All HIS dubious connections to radicals have made him unelectable, do you get it now.
People will not vote for someone who does not love America, he goes against everything America is about.
Sorry but that is reality guys.
It can definitely get more stupid. This site went up recently…
http://www.demsforjohnmccain.com/
I’d like to see a Jib-Jab cartoon of Hillary singnig Veruca’s ‘I want it NOW’ song, lyrics modified to reflect the situation. Bill could play the role of her father, who wants to buy the election for her. Howard Dean (in an Uncle Sam suit) as Willy Wonka, telling her she can’t have it. A half-dozen ‘Obama-Lamas’ singing moralistic songs about how everyone should be more like HIM.
A million hits on YouTube, guaranteed. Wish I had the skill.
On Hill’s electability, it’s easy to see how she can win it all. All you have to do is…
A) Seat Florida and Michigan at full votes.
B) Give Obama nothing for Michigan.
C) Ignore the four states that don’t report popular vote totals for their caucuses.
D) Ignore the fact that caucus states are under-represented in popular vote totals.
E) Make popular vote the deciding criteria.
So we give the vote to the people of Florida and Michigan, while taking away the votes of everyone in Iowa, Nevada, Maine, and Washington, plus diminishing the eletoral power of every other caucus state. Hillary’s not about making sure every vote counts. She about making sure that every vote FOR HER counts, and as many as possible for Obama do not.
A woman who is losing the Black vote by a ratio of 92 to 8 cannot defeat Senator McCain. It’s called “Day of Absence”.
I recently deleted TalkLeft from my bookmarks. It was a sad moment for me, as it had been there for years. I noticed that I was checking in fairly infrequently as the primary season wore on, then last week came across a post that was so ridiculously absurd (the umpteenth on Obama’s “Jewish problem”) that I decided I just had to quit it all together.
It isn’t so much the actual posting (but these are often silly and logically strained), but the comments that got me. I’m admittedly more tolerant of the absurdity from Obama supporters, but seeing as how he’s going to be the nominee, that’s a crazy with which I’ll just have to learn to accept. The same doesn’t have to said for Clinton’s nutty supporters.
Relax, we’ve only got another couple weeks of the insanity, which will build to a fever pitch this coming weekend, and then start to taper off as Clinton’s defeat becomes official and undeniable.
Then there’ll be a few weeks of sniping, concern trolling, and a general tone of bitterness, interspersed with “why Obama has to pick Clinton as VP” posts. When he doesn’t do so, there will be a brief pickup in the “outrage”, until about 1 day before the convention. Then most of it will go away during the general election campaign, as they focus on defeating McCain. When/if Obama wins, the “outrage” will dwindle to a pale shadow of its former self, because it will (finally) sink in that the age of Clinton has passed.
Note to Clinton supporters:
Try as you might but you can’t cash loosers’ tickets at the winners’ window.
Many commenters at Talk Left say they will NEVER vote for Obama because he is sexist or something. Not that they ever say why. Maybe because the black guy has won, and there is no way he could have done it fair and square. Not against the campaign that hired Mark Penn. And he is black (that means scary, nudge nudge, hint hint).
I can only conclude that many of those commenters who would thereby give the keys of the Supreme Court to pandering, war-mongering, hypertensive, cancerous, Ambien-popping, poorly educated, ignorant, Fallwell-loving, angry, corrupt, dangerous, ANTI-CHOICE John McCain must be women past the age of child bearing themselves — since they would be selling out the reproductive rights of their younger sisters and daughters.
Jeralyn is woman, here her roar.
I will not vote for Obama. It’s Hill or McCain. I will not vote for Obama even if Hill is on the ticket.
Can’t wait until November. It will jst be so much fun to watch those whiney dems.
I love this “who doesn’t love America.” You know, since when is loving America to mean blind devotion? Since when do you have to believe America can do no wrong? The last country which had a similar philosophy was the Third Reich. The idea that he is not patriotic is insane. Patriotism is not spending all our money on a war you know. “love it or leave it” is pure ignorance. How about thinking critically? Since when is that unpatriotic to take a critical look at America and say “here is where we do things well, here is where we fail.” The first step towards fixing the problems in America, whether it is lack of health care, $4.00 a gallon gas, the war, is admitting you have a problem. If anyone is drinking the cool-aid it is the people who blindly say “Ammrrerica, Greatest Country in the World!” Greatest in terms of energy efficient cars? No, in terms of health care? No (tell that to he 30k people who die of illnesses which are preventable) That’s not hating America. That’s admitting you have a problem and working to fix it. Until you do that, and as long as you blindly devote to the idea America is the best at everything, you will see no reason to work towards fixing things.
One question.. If she is SO electable, why is she losing?
Because…?
re: “Hillites like those at Taylor Marsh and TalkLeft are saying they’ll vote for McCain in November, while Obama backers are not. Most of them will come around (well, maybe not the Marshites, but then I’m convinced that half of them are freepers in disguise) before November and Obama will win by ~10%.”
So…
I just wonder what makes you think we will “come around”? Has BHO proven himself to be The Promised Uniter? I must have missed that.
I honestly don’t know of a single Clinton supporter who isn’t downright giddy now about working and voting against Barack Obama.
Are you thinking we will buy into BHO’s divisive political fear-mongering about JMc? Sorry, we’re not that type. And if the DNC really does flip off 17 million Clinton Democrats this weekend, I predict that Democrats will not win the Presidency in 2008.
The facts are, Ted Kennedy lost the Reagan Democrats for Democrats in 1980. Those Democrats voted for Republicans for 12 long years. Bill Clinton won those Reagan Democrats back for Democrats in 1992 and again in 1996.
Now that the DNC has shown itself to have no loyalty to the Clintons or to Clinton Democrats, I’m very certain we will want to punish the DNC come November.
I encourage Obamaniacs to do their electoral college map math without the support of Clinton/Reagan Democrats.
That you think he will actually win in November, either without them or that they will “come around,” makes me LOL.
That you think he will beat McCain by “~10%” is absolutely delusional.
And that you think Clinton supporters are the type who will just fall into line because the DNC says that they will??
That one makes me want some of what you’re smoking.
~ With love,
from “Not a Freeper in Disguise”
And, seriously, does this seem like to you like it HELPS your candidate?
“I can only conclude that many of those commenters who would thereby give the keys of the Supreme Court to pandering, war-mongering, hypertensive, cancerous, Ambien-popping, poorly educated, ignorant, Fallwell-loving, angry, corrupt, dangerous, ANTI-CHOICE John McCain must be women past the age of child bearing themselves…”
See, when Obama promises “a different kind of politics” and then you do this kind of crap to an American war hero who has a son serving in Iraq…
You make voters sick to their stomachs with this kind of hate-filled divisive drivel. You PROVE his promises to be nothing but a bunch of empty campaign rhetoric.
You’re learning a “new” kind of politics from BHO? L.M.F.A.O.
So, “spite,” then.
Hey Jan, the Reagan Democrats haven’t been Democrats for most of their voting lives, nearly 30 years. Why would they vote for a liberal like either Hillary or Obama? They didn’t vote for Bill, which is why Hillary said “screw ‘em.” I think you are pretty naive.
Jan, which one of my descriptions of McCain is wrong? The war mongering part? The cancer part? Corrupt (can you say Keating Five, not to mention his latest land deal)? Anti choice? Falwell? Where he graduated in his high school class? His admitted ignorance about economics, science, and his repeated inability to distinguish Shia from Sunni? His intentions towards Iran? His comments about diplomacy versus bombing? His constant change of positions in public comments?
Yeah, the guy got shot down in the Vietnam war. I certainly hope you like the Iraq war, because you will get a lot more of it with McCain.
Go ahead vote for him. You will have to because Hillary has lost.
The amount of idiocy on this board is absolutely appalling. joe, Jan, I’m looking at you.
Especially you, Jan… if your post was indicative of your intelligence level, and ability to think critically, then you are one of the biggest fucking morons I have ever encountered.
Unbelievable.
Now, now, mambo. Your blunt frankness is simply more of the politics of division. You should be very nice and gentle with people like Jan, so that there is no chance they will feel bad about themselves while they happily vote for the candidate who promises four more years of Bush Doctrine.
Count me as another Clinton supporter who will NOT vote for Obama in November. You can take it to the bank. Why?
1. After reviewing all Dem candidates pre-Iowa, listening to speeches on C-span, watching debates, looking at web sites, etc., I selected Hillary Clinton to support, based on her invaluable experience, brilliance, and clarity on issues important to me.
2. Watched with concern remarks by Michelle Obama and Barack Obama, with code words I didn’t understand… Who were they talking to??? Certainly, not me (I’m white.). Was this an agenda being revealed to blacks? Then, watched in horror as Obama campaign labeled everyone racist who dared question Obama’s qualifications or who dared say anything remotely negative. Was even more horrified as the media amplified this sickening ploy, in an effort to destroy the Clintons. This was even more heartbreaking to see black people turn their backs on this couple who had done more to help them than anyone else in my lifetime. Nothing that either Clinton said was remotely racist, but, by god, if Axelrod, Olberman, Matthews or Cafferty said it was, then it WAS!!!
3. Watched the MSNBC & CNN pundits vilify Sen. Clinton, often using such blatant sexism, I got chest pains from my hurt and anger. Became more determined to support Clinton; donated again & again.
4. Watched in disbelief as her key primary wins were deemed no big deal by the same media crowd, but touting all those caucus wins for Obama as sure proof that he was the golden one.
5. Watched debates in which Clinton excelled and Obama foundered. Yet, he was excused and still praised. If she made the slightest stumble, it was magnified all out of proportion.
6. Watched in disbelief as the Rev. Wright, Ayers, Rezko and other murky background issues for Obama were glossed over by the media, and quickly dismissed.
7. Watched Dem after Dem come out in support of Obama, a guy we hardly knew, who was basically a mystery to most of us, a man with such a sketchy resume it was a wonder he had the audacity to even consider running for president, a man who had practically no accomplishments to his name…
8. Watched many Dems & media pundits shout unfairly for Clinton to leave the race, before the primaries were over.
9. Became outraged with NARAL’s untimely endorsement of Obama over Clinton, a woman who has devoted decades to the welfare of women & children.
10. Read nasty blogs comments by the thousands by young Obama supporters, sneering, gloating, calling Clinton terrible names, etc., while their cult candidate, Obama, called women “Sweetie,” flipped Clinton the bird in front of a huge crowd, and snubbed her on the night of the State of the Union address.
No, I do not think much of Barack Obama. Nor do I think much of the Democratic Party, who has thumbed their collective noses at Clinton supporters, who make up roughly half of the primary voters. They are about to shoot themselves in the foot once again. But, I do not have to fall in line or support something in which I do not believe.
I WILL NOT VOTE FOR BARACK OBAMA!!!
Jan, face it. We’re just not into you (Clinton supporters) anymore. Get onboard or get run over by it. You were a Republican before, you’re a Republican now. On the other hand, Obama is picking up new DEMOCRATIC voters in droves.
“You make voters sick to their stomachs with this kind of hate-filled divisive drivel.”
See, I was thinking the same thing this weekend when Hillary alluded (for the 3rd time) that something might “happen” to Obama between now and the convention.
Why don’t you just call him a n—r? At least you would get points for telling us why you really would rather vote for McSame.
“See, when Obama promises “a different kind of politics” and then YOU do this kind of crap to an American war hero who has a son serving in Iraq…”
So, you’re going to vote for McCain not because of anything Obama said, but because of what a blog commenter said about him. Even though you’re a Clinton supporter. That makes sense.
“People will not vote for someone who does not love America, he goes against everything America is about.”
I just don’t understand this kind of argument in favor of Clinton over Obama. Not nly is it total bullshit, it’s a conservative smear of Obama that Clinton supporters have glommed on to in their desperation.
Do Clinton supporters actually believe that if she were the nominee, conservatives wouldn’t paint her with the same brush that they are now slathering all over Obama? Have you all learned nothing from the last two decades of national politics?
Before Obama was a threat to Clinton, back in the fall of last year, the right wing media machine was gearing up to bash Clinton as the most liberal, communistic, anti-American threat to the nation that we had ever known. Were any of you Clinton supporters listening to Sean Hannity’s radio show in January? He devoted whole shows to painting Clinton as being to the left of Hugo Chavez. The only hitch along the way to the full tilt bashing of Clinton as a traitor in the fall was Obama emerging as a leading contender. Slowly but surely, the right got the message and turned its sights on him. The name was different but the message was the same: Obama was now the most liberal, communistic, anti-American threat to the nation that we had ever known.
If Clinton were to end up the nominee, the next minute the right would start filling the airwaves and print with how she was the most extreme, anti-American candidate the Democratic party had ever fielded. Clinton supporters would find themselves trying to fend off the very same smear tactics that they have now so heartily endorsed to attack Obama.
Trust me. In the eyes of the right wing, it isn’t just Obama that “does not love America.” It’s every democrat to the left of Joe Lieberman. And Clinton supporters have fallen for the bullshit hook line and sinker.
You guys are jokes, Obama cannot and will not win any general election because HE has made himself unelectable.
All HIS dubious connections to radicals have made him unelectable, do you get it now.
People will not vote for someone who does not love America, he goes against everything America is about.
Sorry but that is reality guys.
What color is the sky in your reality, Joe?
You should probably do a modicum of research on the subject so you have the slightest shred of knowing what your’e talking about.
I am glad that the White Women Entitlement Syndrome is getting the exposure it deserves.
fafaroo’s right. and if clinton were the nominee we’d have mccain trolls here pretending they were obama supporters, just to rile things up…
I have a question to those of you out there who are reasonable, rational human beings capable of critical thinking. Duros, fafaroo, Enlightened Liberal, Spider, z_adura, Sean, et al… when you read some of the amazingly delusional comments made here by certain Clinton supporters, do you throw up in your mouth a little? I know I do.
To Clinton supporters: It’s fine that you support Hillary. Really. It is. We should be able to disagree with relative amicability on our choice of candidate. However, it is NOT acceptable to buy into the bullshit that has been said about the Obama campaign, much less repeat it as though it were gospel. For the love of God, please think about whether stuff like the Rev. Wright “situation” matters, or whether a single statement from Michelle Obama matters, or whether your perception of unfair media coverage towards Hillary matters with respect to your choice on whether to vote for Barack Obama for President, should he win the nomination. I would submit to you that you CANNOT hold Barack Obama responsible for the words uttered by other people, nor for the media’s coverage of this primary season.
Do not let your disappointment at your candidate’s loss color your perception of Obama. Think rationally about him as a candidate. Judge him on his merits vs. McCain. Don’t vote for McCain out of spite… that’s gotta be the worst reason ever to vote for a candidate. Just put aside your anger for just 10 minutes, do some research, and think critically. Please.
Now that the DNC has shown itself to have no loyalty to the Clintons or to Clinton Democrats, I’m very certain we will want to punish the DNC come November.
So much for country before party. I would say you deserve the government you get, but I don’t.
when you read some of the amazingly delusional comments made here by certain Clinton supporters, do you throw up in your mouth a little? I know I do.
Well, no, I don’t throw up a little, but it makes me sad. It makes me shut my computer down because I just can’t stand to watch train wrecks in slo-mo.
It makes me sad when my sister-in-law tells me how EVIL Michelle Obama is, not even noticing the irony of her die-hard right-wing friends who have repeatedly said the same thing about Hillary over the last 12 years.
I agree whole heartedly with you, Fafaroo. I have done my research, I have read all three candidates web sites and positions on the issue. Some I agree with, some I don’t, but when I balance it all out, Obama comes up with more in the pro side for me.
Electability is not the issue. I’m not so much concerned with what happens in November as I am what happens in January and beyond.
I just wish there was a way to talk some of these folks off the ledge.
I will not vote for Obama. It’s Hill or McCain. I will not vote for Obama even if Hill is on the ticket.
Fine. Tell us why. And please limit your answers to actual things that happened or positions you disagree with. Please refrain from personal attacks or baseless emails you may have received.
I’m a reasonable guy, and I’d really like to know.
Nothing? Anyone?
There’s my answer, I guess. An argument for voting against Obama cannot be made without things that didn’t happen or personal and baseless email slander.
Got it.
Watched with concern remarks by Michelle Obama and Barack Obama, with code words I didn’t understand… Who were they talking to??? Certainly, not me (I’m white.).
Code words? Which words did you have difficulty with, dear? Maybe your problem understanding those words can be traced to something other than the fact that you’re white.