A couple bits I would disagree with.

No, anytime a candidate enters the arena of Presidential politics, their families have to make serious and profound sacrifices.

If strikes me more as her family being willing to support her (I’m assuming they had a say in the matter of her running) rather than her putting them on the line. If the former, it’s a compliment to them and not something she should lay claim to as something she did. If the latter, then it would appear she put her family on display for her own purposes.

I’ll go with it was the former but, as I said, that isn’t really something she should tout as something she did.

I think even you would agree that her happy, comfortable, stable, productive life as the respected Senator from New York has been thrown into a meat grinder as a result of her candidacy. It is an extreme sacrifice for her AND her whole family.

Yeah? So? Maybe it’s was just a poor choice of words, but putting one’s “life on the line” is something firefighters, police and soldiers do. She has not stepped into any situation where her life was seriously at risk.

Yes, I understand she has needed secret service protection and wouldn’t need it unless her life was at risk in some manner. But I’d argue that the purpose of a secret service detail is to ensure the protectee is not at any significant risk. With the preparations and protections that followed her anywhere in the world (including Bosnian tarmacs) she was not at any more risk than you getting on the highway. Certainly she has been far more assured of getting home safely any night than any firefighter/cop/secret service agent.

Taken on some risk and significant personal life disruption? Sure. “Put her life on the line”? No.

“Huh, look at that. Breach hull, all die. I even had it underlined.”

That’s what bugs me.

1. What did she do during her entire teen life to stand up for the rights of women and children?

As both a high school and college student, Hillary was active in her church and in many community organizations. She worked with migrant families through her church, traveled with her pastor to hear MLK speak in Illinois, and even though she was a Goldwater Girl and President of the College Republicans, she believed deeply in community and service to people, one of the central hallmarks of her Methodist Faith.

She left the College Republicans, and became a Progressive Liberal while at Wellesley, one of he finest Women’s colleges in the world. She earned the honor of being named Wellesley’s Valedictorian at the 1969 graduation, and was further honored to be the first student asked to also deliver the Commencement address, during which she stated, “The challenge now is to practice politics as the art of making what appears to be impossible, possible.”

Graduating with honors and a degree in political science, her speech won Rodham a standing ovation, and a feature article in LIFE magazine that month.

After entering Yale Law School in 1969, Rodham served on the board of editors of the Yale Review of Law and Social Action and provided legal advice for underprivileged and abused children at Yale-New Haven Hospital. She also interned with children’s advocate Marian Wright Edelman, received a grant to work at Edelman’s Children’s Defense Fund in Cambridge, Massachusetts, in 1970; and worked for Senator Walter Mondale’s subcommittee on migrant workers during the summer of 1971.

During her second year in law school, Rodham volunteered at the Yale Child Study Center, where she studied new research on early childhood brain development. She also worked at the city legal services providing free assistance to poor residents. It was at Yale’s library that she met her future husband, Bill Clinton. Clinton recalls the occasion they met in which she hastily approached his desk and said, “If you’re going to keep staring at me, I might as well introduce myself.”

After Yale, she worked and was Chair of the Children’s Defense Fund and then on the Senate Judiciary Committee, working on Nixon’s impeachment team.

After she married Bill and they moved to Arkansas, in 1977 Clinton founded Arkansas Advocates for Children and Families. She was very active in women’s, children’s, and family issues as Arkansas’ young First Lady as well.

- What do you mean she’d “put her family … on the line”? Has she pawned Chelsea or something?

Happy to at least notice you didn’t use the term “pimped”, as Michael Shuster so shamefully did. No, anytime a candidate enters the arena of Presidential politics, their families have to make serious and profound sacrifices. Chelsea is followed by cameras and crews wherever she goes, and every word she says anywhere is dissected like a lab specimen. Same, even more, for Bill, same for Hillary’s mother, same for Barack and Michelle Obama and the Obama kids.

- When has she put her life on the line? Claims of dodging sniper fire aside, when has she actually had to risk her life?

I think even you would agree that her happy, comfortable, stable, productive life as the respected Senator from New York has been thrown into a meat grinder as a result of her candidacy. It is an extreme sacrifice for her AND her whole family.

I know you are going to say “WELL SHE CHOSE IT!”.

Which is precisely my point. She knew what it was going to take better than anybody, yet her belief in her vision for America is so strong she went ahead anyway.

Really? Some of this is news to me. I’d really like to know:

- What did she do during her entire teen life to stand up for the rights of women and children?
- What do you mean she’d “put her family … on the line”? Has she pawned Chelsea or something?
- When has she put her life on the line? Claims of dodging sniper fire aside, when has she actually had to risk her life?

I take a certain amount of pride at being open minded and willing to change my mind if given reason to. Despite what I’ve said before I’d be willing to reconsider supporting Hillary if you can elaborate on all this wonderful sacrifice she’s done.

Obama has won the most votes, states, and delegates. He will have won the most votes, states and delegates by the time this goes to the convention. He should have the nomination. For someone to claim otherwise is the height of idiocy, or at least willful ignorance.

Additionally, you really don’t think that Clinton getting the nomination via the superdelegates will eliminate any chance the Dems have of recapturing the White House? Do you think that 90% of black voters (Obama supporters) would be just fine with Clinton getting the nomination under those circumstances? Do you think that the young, energetic voters that Obama has brought to the fore are going to be ok with him losing to her because of the superdelegates? Really? You think that Clinton can win the White House without those demographics? You’re deluded.

She should step aside now for the good of the party and of the country. That would show some class on her part and recognition that there are some things that are more important than her potential Presidency. But instead, it does indeed look like she’s going to try to tear Obama, her colleague and party-mate, limb from limb. It’s a fucking shame.

1. Condone? Ollie and Obama have made it clear that this primary contest is no-holds-barred for all the marbles. You want to go at Hillary? She will not back down, and neither will Obama. At this stage, I really couldn’t begin to tell you who started it, who abetted it, or where it’s going to end. I feel no guilt, and I’m sure neither do you or our host.

2. I can respect a warrior spirit, and a willingness to sacrifice and work and fight for what you want. Hillary’s entire teen and adult life has been spent in standing up for the rights of women and children and those forgotten and passed by. She is willing to put her family, her fortune, her life, and her name on the line for what she believes, and it’s easy to respect that.

3. She is essentially saying she believes in her vision, all great leaders share that. I don’t see the F the party F the country you see.

4. Look, this number thing is an Obama myth. So far, a little over 3100 delegates have pledged or declared. and the difference is only somewhere between 100 and 150 delegates, with literally hundreds of delgates still in play. 100-150, that’s it. this contest is within the margin of error, a statistical tie. “Expressed Will” SOUNDS nice, but in the context of 100-150 out of 3100, it is a totally made-up term convenient to your argument.

5. I seriously doubt that Hillary and Barack going into Denver tied and having the Superdelegtates choose who they consider the better candidate would destroy anything. Just today, I was looking at the Dem enrollment in PA: It’s through the roof! Meantime, McCain is getting less than a dollar for evey 8 raised between Hillary and Obama. The Dem Party will not go anywhere but to the White House, baby.

I would reassess what I “know” if I were you: What you say you “know” is a lot of assumptions, presumptions, and a load of Obama dogma.

Seen any evidence of this yet? I know, I know. Penn says she’s beaten him in every state which actually counts. But overall how has she actually been kicking his ass?

She’s won fewer delegates.
She’s won fewer individual votes.
She’s won fewer states.

I don’t see how that translates into “kicking his ass”.

Oh, I see. My mistake. You said “will kick his ass.” Future tense. So you mean she’ll start doing it any day now.

So, sarcasm aside, let me ask you a serious question: Why has she waited so long to start?

This is not good for our party, Wellstone. She cannot win the nomination without having the superdelegates go against the expressed will of the people. That unlikely scenario would destroy the party and any chance of us capturing the White House in the foreseeable future. I know it, and I suspect that you and she know it too.

Is this what you want?

Go, Hillary! She will kick Obama’s ass, and then clean up on McCain.