CNN breaking news: “An Iraqi probe finds Blackwater security team committed unprovoked, random killings of civilians, Iraqi spokesman says.”
Breaking News
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Iraq Probe Says Blackwater Guilty of Killings
October 16th, 2007
27 Comments
You know what just saddens and infuriates me about this? It’s the comments beneath the related article about two of the civilian victims. Every tenth one or so there’s a clown sputtering some combination of the following:
“Who cares what any of these people say? They’re all terrorists. They should have seen this coming when they caused 9/11. If they don’t like being in a war zone, they should move away. We should drop the big one on them like we did with Japan…we’re friends with Japan today, so it all worked out. CNN is communist for talking about this. You hate America. You hate America. You hate America.”
It just hurts the heart.
Yes I would have expected some variation of “Who cares what these brown Untermensch think?” O’Reilly’s been on this theme for a while, that the problem in Iraq isn’t us, it’s those worthless insufficently grateful Iraqis.
True,
A defense like that would be ridiculous. But the overwhelming theme that I got fromt this is that the car would not stop. Slow speeds, civilian car, women or children visible seems to be something innocuous. But they would not stop. The contractors said that they went through several steps before firing. In the military we call them escalation of force.(EOF). YOu shout, you show your weapon, you use horns, signs, strobe lights, laser pointers, or pin flares or anything else available to get their attention. The last step is to fire. To you, if you are a civilian, it sounds cruel, but if a car load of women and children would not stop and kept proceeding after I signalled repeatedly to stop I would fire also. If you have ever seen the damage a VBIED (Vehicle borne improvised explosive device) can do, you would fire as well. If what the contractors maintain in their defense is true then they acted appropriately. I don’t put credence into the Iraqi (shiite) government because they still claim not to harass, kidnap, and kill Sunni’s. The Iraqi government is probably more corrupt with Saddam gone because it is now unpredictable.
True,
A defense like that would be ridiculous. But the overwhelming theme that I got fromt this is that the car would not stop. Slow speeds, civilian car, women or children visible seems to be something innocuous. But they would not stop. The contractors said that they went through several steps before firing. In the military we call them escalation of force.(EOF). YOu shout, you show your weapon, you use horns, signs, strobe lights, laser pointers, or pin flares or anything else available to get their attention. The last step is to fire. To you, if you are a civilian, it sounds cruel, but if a car load of women and children would not stop and kept proceeding after I signalled repeatedly to stop I would fire also. If you have ever seen the damage a VBIED (Vehicle borne improvised explosive device) can do, you would fire as well. If what the contractors maintain in their defense is true then they acted appropriately. I don’t put credence into the Iraqi (shiite) government because they still claim not to harass, kidnap, and kill Sunni’s. The Iraqi government is probably more corrupt with Saddam gone because it is now unpredictable.
I’m not surprised. I’ve seen footage of these murderers firing into, what appears to be, random cars.
Round them all up and have them executed. Then make the company pay for the legal costs.
If what the contractors maintain in their defense is true then they acted appropriately.
So CS, are you ready to call Dkelsmith — you know, one of the guys that served honorably in Iraq — a defender of “murderers” as you call them?
You’re such an arrogant know-it-all holier-than-though little turd. You make me want to puke.
If what the contractors maintain in their defense is true then they acted appropriately.
Jay: “So CS, are you ready to call Dkelsmith — you know, one of the guys that served honorably in Iraq — a defender of ‘murderers’ as you call them?”
Yes. The evidence is clear, they fired on unarmed civilians that were fleeing the area, and it was unprovoked.
These men are murderers.
And this is not the only incident in Iraq.
Jay: “You’re such an arrogant know-it-all holier-than-though little turd. You make me want to puke.”
And you are inhuman waste who is willing to defend mass murderers because of a political ideology.
No go on, run away from this debate like you did the last one.
The evidence is clear
Yeah. The ‘evidence.’ Somebody accused. You believe. That’s enough evidence for you. What a dumbass.
And you are inhuman waste who is willing to defend mass murderers because of a political ideology.
You’re a little coward that believes anything as long as it casts a bad light on the ideology that you hate so much.
No go on, run away from this debate like you did the last one.
You mean the one where you got your sorry Canadian ass handed to you? That one?
That would be the one where you said “He planned the attack because he was home schooled” but claim that you didn’t make such a claim.
Idiot.
Me: “The evidence is clear”
Jay: “Yeah. The ‘evidence.’ Somebody accused. You believe. That’s enough evidence for you. What a dumbass.”
http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2007/09/22/978530-iraq-blackwater-guards-fired-unprovoked
Now get killed.
Fucking video evidence.
Still think these murderers are heroes?
Me: “And you are inhuman waste who is willing to defend mass murderers because of a political ideology.”
Jay: “You’re a little coward that believes anything as long as it casts a bad light on the ideology that you hate so much.”
Yeah, you keep believing that you brainwashed idiot. Except every single time this shit happens, it turns out I have the evidence to back it up.
Are you tired of being proven wrong yet?
Jay: “That would be the one where you said “He planned the attack because he was home schooled” but claim that you didn’t make such a claim.”
You realize people can read. You aren’t dealing with people as stupid as you.
http://www.oliverwillis.com/archives/2007/10/12/michele-cossey-is-the-worst-mo/#comments
I never blamed home schooling for the planned attack. In fact, I specifically denied that strawman attack. I said the fact that he was bullied so much he had to be home schooled was relevant to the story.
If you can’t tell the difference, you are too fucking stupid to live.
No get the fuck out of here and hang out with the Freepers. Maybe they are stupid enough to buy your bullshit.
I said the fact that he was bullied so much he had to be home schooled was relevant to the story.
No, that is NOT what you said. Again, I wrote:
According to what I have read, the kid was bullied constantly which is why he was home schooled.
To which you responded:
Which is why he planned the attack, which makes it relevant.
Now I know you’re Canadian and all, so maybe you don’t understand the English concept of verbs and nouns. You’re specifically referenced ‘it.’ What is ‘it’? ‘It’ is the home schooling. Work your way backwards: “…which makes it relevant.” Talking about the home schooling. Then, “Which is why he planned the attack…” IE, he planned the attack because he was home schooled.
If that’s not what you intended to write, fine. Admit that you screwed up and move on. But don’t try to pretend you were merely arguing that his home schooling was relevant “to the story.” The issue was whether or not his home schooling was relevant to his planned attack, ie a factor in his motivation to plan the attack and it was not.
And now that I’ve handed your ass to you again, I’ll do like I did with that other jackass Frameone, and put you on permanent ignore. I’d rather discuss these issues with some people who have brains and don’t act like big bad-asses from behind their keyboard.
Cheers dummy.
Or, CSS was saying that he planned the attack because he was bullied. Which is pretty much what, you know, CSS actually said. Maybe you should seek out a blog designed for people more, how can I put it nicely, low functioning? I suggest Ace of Spades. They are beating up on a woman who is in the hospital right now, so you should feel right at home there. You’re welcome.
I can appreciate what Dkelsmith says about the security situation, but the very description of a situation where innocent civilians can be riddled with gunfire for simply disobeying a stop signal–and who knows if they even heard the signal clearly?–seems to indicate that nothing has gotten better in four years, despite increased troop levels, despite Blackwater, despite any of our efforts. The Iraqis have not grown accustomed to living in the grip of our occupation and the American forces, contracted or otherwise, have not grown accustomed to living among ordinary Iraqis. Every Iraqi citizen remains under suspicion of hostility and every American soldier remains under suspicion of bloodlust.
(And in the meantime, 30% of us back home think the situation is still workable, and if it isn’t workable, fuck these stupid Iraqis.)
Personally, I think the issue isn’t the running the barricade, it’s the mercenaries. Mercenaries are against everything America stands for, including having no liability when they do crap like this. That’s why I sigh an “oh well” when merc’s get killed. I can appreciate dkelsmith’s dilemma. I want a trained U.S. soldier making those awful decisions rather than mercs who are there for the cash and suffer no ramifications if they shoot indiscriminately.
Does anyone remember that F/X show a couple years ago “Over There” about Iraq? I recall one episode was about this very issue (running barricades).
If you two are finished with your chest-bumping…
If what the contractors maintain in their defense is true then they acted appropriately. I don’t put credence into the Iraqi (shiite) government because they still claim not to harass, kidnap, and kill Sunni’s. The Iraqi government is probably more corrupt with Saddam gone because it is now unpredictable.
Well, that’s a pretty big “if,” isn’t it? The stories we’re getting stateside say there’s quite a variety of witnesses who tell a different story. It’s impossible for me to know if you’re getting more information or less.
Is the Iraqi government reliable? Beats me, but these are the people the U.S. put into power–if we can’t trust ‘em, what the heck are we doing there? And if the current outfit is more corrupt than Saddam, well, that’s the clearest sign possible that some folks in Washington have misjudged the situation rather badly.
P.S. How much longer til you get home, Smith? I’ve been checking your blog, but it’s stuck on “soon.”
You two! Knock it off! I’ll turn this fucking car around RIGHT now!
The key ingredient which I think was missed in this whole thing was the phrase,
“An Iraqi probe finds Blackwater security team committed unprovoked, random killings of civilians, Iraqi spokesman says.”
What I submit is the government is corrupt. I had an Iraqi woman tell me that a patrol that came by earlier in the day had shot out of all of her windows for no reason and that she needed a claim card for reimbursement. She showed me the windows which were indeed shattered…completely….not one shard or pane left. And then she showed me the bullets that she had “picked up off the ground”. AK-47 rounds. And when I say “rounds” I mean unfired rounds.
@C.S Strowbridge,
Sorry you feel like I am a defender of murderers, but I do submit that I said “if the contractors version of events is true then they acted appropriately.” Unless you have seen up close what a VBIED can do, or have seen what an IED can do. Then you really can’t appreciate the urgent need to stop a vehicle as far away from your convoy/checkpoint/patrol base/ECP as possible. A VBIED blast can vaporize vehicles nearby, and it can shred dismounted Infantry up to 1000 meters away.
And no, we can’t trust the government. It is more biased than Saddam’s administration. At least he didn’t care so much about your religous background so long as you supported the Ba’ath party. This government is all about the Shia. They could care less about the Sunni, and the major killer of American troops is now the EFP which is used primarily bytthe Shi’ite militia, not the Sunni militia. Besides that, the Shi’ite militia (JAM in particular) is deeply entrenched in the recognized government.
Quaker,
I am back….I have been busy spoiling the kids, sunning in Miami with the wife, and downing plenty of ale in hopes of gaining some weight back. Thanks for asking.
Jay: No, that is NOT what you said. Again, I wrote:
According to what I have read, the kid was bullied constantly which is why he was home schooled.
To which you responded:
Which is why he planned the attack, which makes it relevant.
—————
You are so god damned fucking stupid I don’t know where to begin.
I said relevant. Being home schooled was relevant to the story. I never said being home schooled caused him to plan the attack.
Now shut the fuck up.
Enlightened Liberal: “Or, CSS was saying that he planned the attack because he was bullied. Which is pretty much what, you know, CSS actually said.”
I hope he believes you, cause I said that three times now.
He’s so obsessed with this pathetic strawman, he refuses to even read what I’m writing now.
“Sorry you feel like I am a defender of murderers, but I do submit that I said ‘if the contractors version of events is true then they acted appropriately.’”
As others have said, that’s a very big if. There are two problems here…
1.) One, Blackwater has a history of pulling this kind of shit. They even recently drew their guns on U.S. soldiers. These are not the good guys. At best, at very best, Blackwater is a necessary evil.
2.) The Iraqis have video evidence. Even if you don’t trust the government, and I sure don’t, there is more than enough evidence to show that Blackwater’s version of events is wrong.
“And now that I’ve handed your ass to you again,”
You know what? I’m going to explain this again, cause I really think you are functionally retarded.
According to what I have read, the kid was bullied constantly which is why he was home schooled.
To which you responded:
Which is why he planned the attack, which makes it relevant.
The IT here refers to the fact that he was BULLIED so much he was forced to be home schooled.
Everyone else understands that point, why can’t you?
I am back….I have been busy spoiling the kids, sunning in Miami with the wife, and downing plenty of ale
Hooray!! Welcome home, friend.
C.S. Strowbridge
Do you have a link for the video in which the people were shot? If they were “fleeing” and they were shot, then there is a problem. If they were approaching the contractors or coalition forces and would NOT STOP, then at a point you HAVE to shoot. I have not seen the video and do not know where to find it, can you provide a link.
Be wary of “Iraqi Probes”, because from personal experience I have seen that they will often make things up. I am no apologist for people who think they can inflict damage upon law-abiding citizens, but I do know that every Iraqi citizen claims to be an innocent bystander. Even those that I have personally seen shooting at coalition troops. No sooner than they are apprehended and/or wounded, they claim mistaken identity. I have personally seen Iraqi citizens keep approaching my vicinity when they were flagged to stop, and it wasn’t until the fourth step of the last EOF that I knew of, (which is a warning shot to the left or right of the vehicle) was fired until they would finally stop. Five years after the invasion you still have people, especially males between 15 and 25 (which is a glaring similarity to the foolhardiness of some American males), who seem to put their life in their own hands by deliberately not cooperating with coalition forces when it would be the safest thing to do.
Regardless of what any of us feel about the impetus, the morality, or the prosecution of this conflict, the Soldier on the ground has the inherent right to self-defense. Some have abused this, and some have gone to their graves because they second guessed themselves. Of course, this is my opinion and I speak only for myslef.
“Do you have a link for the video in which the people were shot?”
No.
“If they were ‘fleeing’ and they were shot, then there is a problem.”
Yes.
“Be wary of ‘Iraqi Probes’”
It’s not just the Iraqis who are saying this. And this is not an unprecedented event for Blackwater. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, but this is not the case here. This is merely part of a ongoing pattern.
We may never know exactly what happened in this incident. If it turns out that the vehicle didn’t stop when it should have or didn’t respond to the mercenaries as they should have, well, it’s tough but you have to go with Smith’s assessment of the situation. In a different but parallel context, as someone who, in his younger wilder days, had more than a few run ins with the cops, i learned the hard way that if a cop tells you to do something, like, lay the fuck down, you better goddamn well do it — or they will make you do it. If you put your hands where they shouldn’t be, you are only inviting a world of hurt on yourself. yes, police abuse exists. yes, mercenaries in Iraq are woefully unregulated. But if they feel threatened by someone who is not obeying their commands, i’m sorry but they simply have no choice. If that’s what happened hear it’s tragic.
Of course the larger tragedy is that we have both mercenaries and us military in a situation in which they can literally trust no one except their own. And a civilian population that is increasingly terrified by and suspicious of the people who are there to help them.
And there people who still think we can “win” …